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Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 2)  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 23585 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

This is a continuation thread of part 1, which can be found here: Delta To Order 100 X 739ER (Part 1). Please feel free to contribute to the thread, adhering to the forum rules at all times, please.

Enjoy the forums!  

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
130 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRonaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 382 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 23477 times:

Just in at Twitter

Quote:
BoeingAirplanes: Thanks to our friends @Delta for ordering 100 Next-Generation 737-900ERs. #Boeing
http://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes

It's official!


User currently offlineJonasJ From Sweden, joined Aug 2005, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 23464 times:

From Delta's website: "Delta Announces Order for 100 Boeing 737-900ER Aircraft"

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1428



JonasJ
User currently onlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2688 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 23431 times:

Finally some good news! Congrats to DL and Boeing!


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineoykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2754 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 23396 times:

Quote:
News Release Issued: August 25, 2011 8:15 AM EDT

Boeing, Delta Air Lines Announce Order for 100 Next-Generation 737-900ERs
- 737-900ER is part of Delta's fleet renewal effort
- The order has a list-price value of more than $8.5 billion

Press release here:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1899

No picture yet.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2116 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days ago) and read 23109 times:

"I want to commend all the manufacturers who participated in this process. Their innovation in developing fleet solutions for the future resulted in several very competitive proposals," he said.

Nicely worded Richard. The best "package" on offer won this deal. I would also say that he quite smartly thanked Airbus for their input. Great news for Boeing and the 737-900ER. Now it will be interesting to see what happens on deliveries after 2018.

I just wish we could all be as respectful as the CEO of Delta, to each manufacturer.


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days ago) and read 23058 times:

Interesting. The press release says these aircraft will be replacing:

Quote:
Boeing 757 and 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft

767s?


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4398 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 22861 times:

Congrats to Being, and ever good landings to Delta. Makes a lot of sense, and if the deal was right it will end good.

User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1622 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 22613 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 8):
Interesting. The press release says these aircraft will be replacing:

Quote:
Boeing 757 and 767 and Airbus A320 aircraft

767s?

And A320's, didn't expect that either. But the oldest must be running out of cycles perhaps. 767's will be probably domestic ones? No word on the MD80's, so there are still lots of airplanes to be replaced. Interesting battles ahead  



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5532 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 22510 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 12):
And A320's, didn't expect that either. But the oldest must be running out of cycles perhaps. 767's will be probably domestic ones?

The domestic 767s still have quite a few years on cycles (the 767 has a very high design cycle life for a widebody), but their economics aren't that great. It should reduce costs to replace them with increased frequency on 739ERs.

The earliest A320s will be running out of cycles by the time the later planes in this order are delivered.

All that said, I expect the first large batch of planes in this order to be 1-for-1 replacements for 757s.

[Edited 2011-08-25 07:27:47]

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10488 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22495 times:

Quoting col (Reply 7):
Nicely worded Richard. The best "package" on offer won this deal. I would also say that he quite smartly thanked Airbus for their input. Great news for Boeing and the 737-900ER. Now it will be interesting to see what happens on deliveries after 2018.

I don't think Airbus is out of the picture yet, although for fleet commonality, you might think that the rest of the order might be from Boeing.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16878 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22451 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 13):
The domestic 767s still have quite a few years on cycles (the 767 has a very high design cycle life for a widebody), but their economics aren't that great. It should reduce costs to replace them with increased frequency on 739ERs.

I think with regards to the replacement of the domestic 767s the 737-900ERs will probably replace 757-300s domestically which in turn would replace the domestic 767s.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7550 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22430 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 14):
I don't think Airbus is out of the picture yet, although for fleet commonality, you might think that the rest of the order might be from Boeing.

Correct, however there are more airbus aircraft than 737's by several planes, this isn't the end of the order I'm sure of it, after all this amount is only half of the total amount of aircraft they were looking to purchase. None of this is really putting DL ahead of anything since these are not NEO's. I guess time will tell.

Also over at Bloomberg here is some news regarding other aircraft:

Quote:
Delta Air Lines put off an order of 100 small narrow-body jets until 2012, delaying talks with planemakers such as Embraer, as it prepares to buy 100 Boeing 737s, Bloomberg reported. Discussions with Embraer and Bombardier advanced this year while Delta negotiated with Boeing and Airbus SAS for larger planes. “After talks with Delta, Embraer expects that Delta’s decision whether to buy its planes or equivalents from competitors will only be made next year,” Embraer Executive Vice President Paulo Cesar de Souza e Silva said in a statement. Trebor Banstetter, a spokesman for Delta, and Bombardier’s John Arnone declined to comment. People familiar with the matter had said on Aug. 22 that Delta had delayed a decision beyond this week on buying smaller narrow-body aircraft, without giving the size of the planned purchase or a new timetable.


[Edited 2011-08-25 07:37:25]


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22361 times:

Quote:
Sooo...where's this announcement that some said were going to happen yesterday?

I do believe DL has board meetings on Wednesdays so maybe tomorrow?

I guess I wasn't too far off base when I said the above  

Very exciting news but I wonder which a/c will start to go to the desert when the first batch arrives on property in 2013. I can't see DL flying around that much extra capacity with their "capacity disciplines" and all. When I say which a/c, I mean actualy ship numbers. I guess only those with knowledge of when HMVs are due will have a pretty good idea.

Also, in regards to the PMNW 5500s that's been in long term storage, are those up for a heavy cheack? I ask becaue if they are not, I can see those finally returning to service when some of the oldest 757s come up for checks. Fly those (the stored 5500s) until the paint comes off and when the HMVs are due, park them again permanently. DL's doing this right now. They're sending birds that have winglets into storage to save on cycles and flying the older ones until they are due for HMVs since they will be parked in the near future anyway.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7600 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22294 times:

Quoting col (Reply 7):
"I want to commend all the manufacturers who participated in this process. Their innovation in developing fleet solutions for the future resulted in several very competitive proposals," he said.

Nicely worded Richard. The best "package" on offer won this deal. I would also say that he quite smartly thanked Airbus for their input. Great news for Boeing and the 737-900ER. Now it will be interesting to see what happens on deliveries after 2018.

I just wish we could all be as respectful as the CEO of Delta, to each manufacturer.

This indeed is a very classy statement from RA. Goes to show that business is business and no hard feelings (unlike on a.net). It also very much seems to imply to all parties "we'll be talking again in the future."

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 9):
Delta will begin taking deliveries of the new plane in the second half of 2013, with 12 aircraft that year, 19 aircraft per year in 2014 through 2017, and the remaining 12 aircraft in 2018. Each aircraft has committed long-term financing, Delta said.

The size and timing of the order will allow Delta to maintain its annual capital expenditure run rate between $1.2 billion and $1.4 billion during the next three years and will not impact the company’s $1.2 billion of capital expenditures projected for this year.

As mentioned in one of the press releases, this is essentially a capacity-neutral move. The key part of the statement is "capacity-neutral" not "airframe neutral". Gone are the days of true 1 for 1 replacements.

The DC-9-50s are gone by the end of 2012, being offset by the MD-90 capacity coming online.
By the end of 2013, some of the 757s will start to go.

They'll essentially fly the older frames until they time-out on cycles pending heavy maintenance checks and park them, being offset by the new aircraft coming online. At first, the 739ER capacity may even be used to offset the loss of the DC-9-50 capacity for summer 2013. Plus, the LGA slot swap is also going to have fleet implications. I wouldn't expect to see a whole lot of 739ER LGA flying (other than ATL-LGA perhaps) but they'll have to shift a number of 2-class RJs and A319/A320/738's around.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 12):
And A320's, didn't expect that either. But the oldest must be running out of cycles perhaps. 767's will be probably domestic ones? No word on the MD80's, so there are still lots of airplanes to be replaced. Interesting battles ahead

DL said they are waiting until 2012 to decide on an order for a smaller aircraft. They are waiting for more clarity and also waiting to see how the economic situaion plays out.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ued-at-8-5-billion.html?cmpid=yhoo

The MD-88s still have a lot of life left. Just like their older breathern the DC-9s, the MD-88s will become the new flexible fleet/capacity. DL as of now is planning to fly them until 2017-2018. Parking them much earlier would require a significant write-down and also DL is very prudently managing its capex spending and debt.

Quoting mayor (Reply 14):
I don't think Airbus is out of the picture yet, although for fleet commonality, you might think that the rest of the order might be from Boeing.

Don't mention "fleet commonality." Sure there may be more 739ERs but the timeframe and order will be evaluated against what may be available after 2018.

Essentially, this is what DL needed now. They new they needed deliveries starting in 2013, before any NEO was available. This order represents DL's immediate need. They'll decide on the NEO / RE situation later.


User currently offline1337DELTA764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6559 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22266 times:

Looks like the Sky Interior is official. Also, the article states that there will be an "industry leading on-board experience". Does that include AVOD?


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 22038 times:

Quoting 1337DELTA764 (Reply 19):
Looks like the Sky Interior is official. Also, the article states that there will be an "industry leading on-board experience". Does that include AVOD?

1337, I know you are everything cabin experience and a/c orders   but I honestly don't know what the future of AVOD will be. DL will be going into the testing stage for streaming wifi towards the end of the year. United and AA have already announced similar programs. This may very well be a way to get out of the AVOD game on a/c that are weight critical. I can see them on the domestic fleet but i'm not 100% sure about what will happen with the international fleet moving forward. I could be way off base here but just my opinion.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18):
Gone are the days of true 1 for 1 replacements.

This is key PSU. From their Q&A to employees:

Quote:
Q: Why is Delta buying these airplanes?
A. Delta's domestic fleet is aging, with many of our Boeing 757s, 767s and Airbus A320s approaching retirement over the next several years, in addition to the DC-9s and MD-80s that have been retired or will soon be grounded. The new 737-900ERs will replace these aircraft as they are phased out of the fleet. This order is not designed to grow the fleet or increase Delta's network capacity.

Q. The press release mentions 767s as aircraft that are being replaced. I thought this was for narrowbody domestic fleet retirements?
A. Because of its range and size, the 737-900ER can be deployed to replace several aircraft types, ranging from the smaller 757s and Airbus A320s as well as larger domestic 767-300s. The new airplanes are not intended to be one-for-one replacements for a single aircraft type.


Straight from the horse's mouth. So I was actually right in my thinking from my first post in this new thread. A/C be parked not too long after the first batch come on property due to Delta's capacity restraints. I wonder which frames will go first.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7600 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 20879 times:

Never flown on any of CO's 739/739ERs.

I see they operate their ER's in a 20/153 configuration - 173 total with a mid-cabin lav between F & Y.

Any idea on DL's potential configuration? I see they said 180 seats in the press release.


User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20723 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 16):
Correct, however there are more airbus aircraft than 737's by several planes, this isn't the end of the order I'm sure of it, after all this amount is only half of the total amount of aircraft they were looking to purchase. None of this is really putting DL ahead of anything since these are not NEO's. I guess time will tell.

Nobody says that the contract does not include wordage that allows DL to upgrade to the 737-9 when the 737-9 becomes available and approved by the Boeing BoD. I presume they will upgrade at least the back end of the order, and the expected 2012 order will be all 737RE's.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 20105 times:

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 18):
and the expected 2012 order will be all 737RE's

Negative.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ued-at-8-5-billion.html?cmpid=yhoo



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineBlueman87 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 19063 times:

Is they 737-900ER going to have tv's in them


B6 T5 JFK DL T2/3 JFK
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5532 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 18930 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 16):
I wonder which frames will go first.

I'd put money on very early PMDL 757s going first. They're the only ones that are going to be cycle limited within the next couple of years. After that, 5500s, slightly later PMDL 757s, and eventually 763As and very early A320s.


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18718 times:

I can't see any reason that the 739s wouldn't be outfitted on the inside exactly the same as the most modern 738s.

NS


User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18658 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 19):
Negative.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...=yhoo

Sorry, should have clarified this. Any remaining narrowbody orders, not the small 100 seater ones which will probably be the C-series.


User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18571 times:

Nice order. Gets the immediate (5 year) replacement need out of the way for the oldest 757's 320's etc. (and 2013 can't come soon enough for one or two of those!) A well proven, comfortable and efficient aircraft. Boeing no doubt offered a very attractive price which made the whole package work for DL.

DL can now sit back a little and see how the 320NEO and 737RE develop, along with other manufacturer products and don't need to make any immediate decision on post 2018 needs. The DL fleet is large enough for Airbus and Boeing products to coexist so I wouldn't suggest yet that this order definitely indicates the next order is a shoe in for Boeing.


25 USAF336TFS : But it's surely a giving Boeing the upper hand with regard to their next order. My guess is the contract language allows for Delta to swap some of th
26 Post contains images WN738 : Pleasantly surprised I honestly didnot think the 737NG (any variant) would get any more orders (certainly not this big) now that the A320 NEO, a plane
27 PSU.DTW.SCE : Please read the posts above. All of your speculation is answered above. DL needed aircraft starting in 2013, well before any NEO/RE was going to be a
28 xdlx : Wonder if Delta could make it work with 3 types? C-Series B737/8/9NG B777/787
29 Stitch : Down the road, I see no reason why not. I expect they could also make it work with the CSeries, A320neo and A350.
30 micstatic : Good question. But I'm sure they would retain the 737-700 for special performance ops, and this would be 4 types. The 777 and 787 are not the same ty
31 fpetrutiu : Nice wet dream Stich, but with 18 firm 787's on order, more 777 and all Airbus options differed indefinitely, I highly doubt it. Taking delivery of t
32 gigneil : You would presume that, naturally. NS
33 Post contains images flyorski : I would give Delta a 50% chance of purchasing more Airbus. It simply depends on too many variables to assume they would not. I am saying this without
34 brons2 : There is no exact replacement for the 763ER in either of those scenarios, and Delta has a LOT of 763ER. The 788 is the closest, but it's still a fair
35 gigneil : The 788's trip costs should actually be lower than the 763's by a wide margin. NS
36 cokepopper : That would be a dream! As a flight attendant, this would make training much easier, and as we know, its all about us lol
37 Stitch : Both should be lower thanks to the lower fuel and maintenance costs of the new planes. This should easily cover the increased labor costs (higher fli
38 Post contains images oykie : Picture here. Looks nice What a 707NG would look like?
39 Post contains links DL_Mech : 707NG? Not with that wimpy little wing. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_d-w5rabUH7...W1_Fw0/s1600-h/Boeing+7+Series.JPG
40 oykie : Nice picture! Remember that event well. And I agree that the massive 707 wing is beautiful.
41 JerseyFlyer : Is that not 4 types?
42 JerseyFlyer : I think this order shows DL to be the supreme opportunistic buyer of aircraft. They are mopping all the MD 90s available. Now they add 100x 739, slow
43 delimit : There is no replacement for the 763ER, period. Pretty much everything is either much smaller or a bit bigger. The A332 or 788 are about as close as D
44 fpetrutiu : On par???? What would be the point of developing the planefor the past 6 years to be "on par" with old technology. The 787 should beat the A332 by at
45 Post contains images delimit : The A332 has not exactly stood still in that time. I'm just being conservative in my statements rather than reopen that can of worms. We'll have answ
46 xdlx : I stand corrected 5-types C-series B73NG ALL Versions B767/5 ALL Versions B777 ALL Versions B787 ALL Versions
47 PSU.DTW.SCE : Sounds nice in theory, but DL also have a good sized fleet of young A332/A333 that are newer and play a different role than the 757/767 fleets. Plus
48 seabosdca : An airline as big as DL doesn't need to burn enormous amounts of capital just to shoehorn itself into the smallest possible number of types. I think D
49 SEPilot : As the A321 has a clear sales advantage over the 739ER for whatever reason it does seem that since DL has opted for the 739ER on this order it is mor
50 xdlx : I do realize that the MD88/90 will be utilized until the end of the decade. The question is with the non common types, does it cost more to operate t
51 PSU.DTW.SCE : Non-common types? Each fleet is sufficiently large enough to be its own. Again, fleet commonality, the most overly-played assertion on a.net. Traded?
52 FlyASAGuy2005 : No. The fleet is robust enough. Why would they do this?
53 flyorski : It sounds to me like you are really praying that Delta will get rid of the Airbus fleet it operates. The fact is Delta exists TO MAKE MONEY not to fl
54 xdlx : No one is talking emotions. From the very begining in Delta history, they have had a balanced approach to fleet renewal. For example when DL entered
55 Delimit : Well, you have your answer then. The 330s are most likely staying. They will probably be replaced with 787s a LONG time from now. As for single aisles
56 PlanesNTrains : I agree with everything here, though I'm not sure we can rule out the Airbus just yet. If next week the BoD at Boeing gives the green light to the RE
57 par13del : What has to be remembered for most US carriers is that single aisle a/c are mostly deployed on domestic routes, so even if AA or others operate NEO a
58 Post contains links NeutronStar73 : Okay, now we have word that Delta's rejection of Airbus did not have to do with "delivery positions and slot availability" that many people have said
59 Stitch : As DL operates both the 737-800 and A320-200, and a brand new A321-200LGW and a brand new 737-900ER have similar values, I expect both OEMs found them
60 YTZ : As much as I'd love to see the CSeries notch up DL as a customer, I am wondering why they wouldn't go with 73G/A319s to maintain commonality with the
61 Stitch : If it hits it's targets, the CSeries will offer lower operating costs compared to the A319neo and 737-7, to say nothing of the A319 and 73G.
62 ikramerica : These could be sold off to a lessor if need be. But it's highly unlikely the hundreds of 737s would all be replaced by NEOs before an all new NB is o
63 fpetrutiu : They are much heavier and have a alarger capacity than they anticipate they need. That would be my guess, but I personally would love to see more B73
64 YTZ : I know the operating costs are lower. I was just wondering if that's sufficient for an airline to then have to deal with that the commonality issues
65 Delimit : Shouldn't the order extending beyond 2018 be considered? I understood the 2018 end date to be specific to the 900ER order.
66 col : I think if you read the article closely, you will see that the joke is actually the article itself. I do not believe Airbus ever said it was booked,
67 seabosdca : When you're as big as DL, you can operate "OK" without the perfect mix of aircraft sizes. They are probably judging that it's better to go without a
68 Post contains images SASMD82 : . So basically this is quite irrational don't you think Sorry to be slightly off the topic but with the recent order of AA, are 'gentleman agreements
69 gigneil : I just read that whole article twice and it basically said the opposite of what you just said. I'm not calling you a liar, but I don't see how you co
70 Delimit : Um...yes? Hence, 787s. Unless you are going to be a daring iconoclast and suggest the 330s will be replaced with more 330s. Because the 787 is basica
71 gigneil : But way less so than it was supposed to be. Not to mention, when will you get one? NS
72 SASMD82 : This was basically one of my points (sorry, I had to come up with arguments) and who knows what the market will be in 2020? Maybe the Airbus develop
73 Delimit : In the initial iteration, sure. By the end of the decade when Delta starts its wide body replacement, probably at or above specs. As for when you'll
74 fpetrutiu : Isn't that comment valid only for the first few frames produced? It was overweight, an issue that was addresses from what I heard. From frames 6 on a
75 Delimit : Or we could all grow wings! Come on now. Given everything we know today, without exciting (and fairly unlikely) changes in the next 4 or 5 years, my
76 fpetrutiu : Agreed, the A330 is a fantastic plane, I love it, but realistically speaking, it is nowhere near the 787 (today's specs for both). Could you please e
77 gigneil : An A330-200 hoists, what, 20 tons more payload across over 1000nm further than an 767? NS
78 Delimit : The comparison has been done here over and over. It's basically commonly accepted wisdom by those not biased towards one or the other manufacturer. R
79 fpetrutiu : I don't find it inflammatory but I would like to see the facts behind it. As I said, I love the A330, it is one of my all time favourites.
80 Stitch : Now that Boeing has hard data I'm hearing mumblings that the 787-8's numbers came in over 10% better than the A330-200. And that's with the "fat fram
81 gigneil : I hadn't really heard an update in quite some time, especially not since they had starting gathering performance data during the later stage of flight
82 SUNRISEVALLEY : Are the mumblers that you are tuned into making any noises about when the ACAP 's will be updated?
83 Stitch : Not yet, but I would think we should have them soon enough now that we're within weeks of the start of customer deliveries. I see the 747-8 ACAP was
84 Post contains links and images Delimit : Dont want to derail the thread further. A quick google gave me this for your reading pleasure, and there's much more on offer. 787-9 Vs. A330-300 (by
85 fpetrutiu : What major updates to the A330 improved its efficiency by 15+ percent? I haven't heard of any such developments in the past 6 years. I am sure those
86 n7371f : Any of the regular Delta and TechOps posters heard anything about layout for the 73X? I know it's early and Delta has plenty of time to finalize the c
87 Jacobin777 : From what I hear, even the first iterations of the B787's are going to just have killer economics against its competitors. The more "optimized" ones
88 Post contains links InsideMan : http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...id-delta-get-a-51-discount-on.html damn, that is quite a discount. So much for people claiming the 737-900ER so
89 PlaneAdmirer : Price isn't a part of merit? Since when? It's the total value proposition and if Boeing can make money at the price they negotiated, good for Boeing
90 PlanesNTrains : I somehow doubt that most planes are sold on merit alone. And I'm not sure that a 51% discount is unprecedented - or even unexpected - at this point.
91 mayor : That's what I was referring to earlier in the Airbus/Eastern deal with the A300s. This is the only Airbus deal that I'm familiar with, but I'm sure t
92 Post contains links and images mffoda : You mean like this example.... http://airinsight.com/2011/05/09/a-glimpse-inside-engine-oem-pricing/ Quote: A glimpse inside engine OEM pricing In th
93 flyingAY : Though I'm quite sure before the introduction of A320neo or the 737MAX, neither A nor B had to discount their narrowbodies so much (OK, maybe the inf
94 Stitch : Actually 50% discounting is the norm now for narrowbodies and widebodies. I'm hearing AA paid even less than DL for their A320s. *shrug*
95 scbriml : That level of discount is not unusual for a large order from a major client. Only just and for a significantly larger order.
96 InsideMan : discounts on engines larger 70% are totally normal, because the manufacturers make they money on MRO. More or less like printer companies giving prin
97 PlanesNTrains : Well, we have: ...and: These deals may not represent the "norm", but they certainly represent the "current". They also show that neither the 737NG no
98 DLMD90 : I agree, and I hope so, lately, I keep getting those OLD PMNW 757's out of BOS, I'm really tired of them! When did DL decide they were committing to
99 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : You can't get more in limbo than that order, that's for sure. I don't think we can draw too many conclusions from Delta in this order. It was one RFP
100 PlaneAdmirer : This is off topic but I am wondering if for labor relations on the NB fleets it makes more sense for DL, UA, US, WN to use the same type. With a sub f
101 PlanesNTrains : I think there's a variety of factors to support or contradict that thought, depending on the circumstance. Some would say that the greater financial
102 sxf24 : Yes, it is the norm...
103 gigneil : I actually would have thought it was 75%. NS
104 Post contains images scbriml : No, I don't believe it is - 30-40% is more usual for most orders. However, we have recently seen a significant number of large, tactical orders and t
105 sxf24 : You are incorrect. I'm not aware of any customers who currently get discounts smaller than 40%. Discounts have certainly grown over the years. I thin
106 InsideMan : actually scbriml is very correct. Besides I never said it doesn't happen, but it is not the norm. Definitely not. The reason I posted the original lin
107 par13del : And the fact that DL and AA needed a/c before the NEO or the MAX EIS made no never mind in setting the price. Ok
108 Jacobin777 : Took a look at resale value and residual value of the competing planes and operating margins (for the manufacturers)....that gives a better idea....
109 sxf24 : I am not aware of any narrowbody sales to airlines in the past 18 months that had a discount less than 40%. Can you name one?[Edited 2011-09-02 08:01
110 flyingAY : Where do you people get the discount percentages? Can you for example tell me, how much AY received discount for their A321sharklet order?
111 imiakhtar : I guess you're referring to the thread recently created by LAXintl. How does any of that data support your supposition? I've read the financial repor
112 sxf24 : It's highly proprietary, but rumors and facts circulate throughout the industry. Most lessors and financiers have a pretty good idea of where net pri
113 JBirdAV8r : Way off.
114 par13del : Well if we take the discounts being touted and look at the reverse we are talking about highway robbery, if 50% is the norm as claimed by some, then o
115 worldliner : Heard Delta cancelled 126 737-800 options and swapped for 30 737-900ER's. Any reckoning that Delta ordered the MAX also?
116 seabosdca : It's not that they are geared to "hooking some nutcase," it's that no one has any incentive to get them lower. Instead, everyone's incentives are to
117 Stitch : Air Transport News and FlightGlobal's forum is reporting this, as well. The deal was DL would cancel 60 options and 66 rolling options for the 737-80
118 Post contains images Jacobin777 : No not really. I was more or less looking at other research firms which provide data on airplane values. Again, some of this data is provided form re
119 Post contains images astuteman : Not sure what you'll glean from the manufacturers operating margins to be honest. Three things.. Currency hedging costs Lots of exceptionals in the l
120 PlanesNTrains : While I don't know all the in's and out's of the deal, it certainly makes sense in the end. They aren't going to need hundreds of NG options. -Dave
121 InsideMan : I will not make any confidential information public.... 50% discount is not the norm. Period.
122 PlanesNTrains : Then what exactly is "the norm"? -Dave
123 InsideMan : 30-40 as already posted by scrimbl. But as I wrote in another thread somewhere, the difference in price can be up to 100%, as some do get 50% discount
124 Post contains links JerseyFlyer : It looks as though DL's 100 x 739 order in fact represents an exercise of existing options on 738s, which would explain how they secured early slots:
125 USAF336TFS : I see no confirmation of this in the latest "Orders and Deliveries" section of Boeing's website.
126 Post contains links Stitch : The 100 737 orders are posted on the main page - http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm
127 USAF336TFS : Yes I saw that Stitch, but I do not see the corresponding cancellations.
128 sxf24 : Options are not included on the Orders and Deliveries page unless converted to a firm order. Options are "cancelled" all the time when not exercised.
129 Post contains links mffoda : Looks like there will no additional order for anytime soon... http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...n-aircraft-order-anytime-soon.html Quote: "A majo
130 iceberg210 : Exactly The industry I'm in for example (commercial roofing) is one where all the manufactures post their 'price' lists openly, but no roofer actuall
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