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What Happens To The 787 Test Aircraft?  
User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 475 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 18411 times:

I know the prototype 707 is in Washington. Not sure about the 727, 737, 757, and even 747. But what happens to all the test aircraft, (how many). It must be expensive to keep them flyable. Do they get parked and the electronics removed for further use? Or are they stripped and turned into a Starbucks. Are they sold on a used aircraft lot....Just interested.

63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29680 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18350 times:
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Well in the case of the first three 787s, they are owned by Boeing and will likely be used to continue to develop technologies like bleedless / electrical architecture, laminar flows, CFRP construction and such. I also expect they will be used to test PiPs for the Trent 1000 and GEnx1B engines.

Eventually, I expect ZA001 to be parked at the Museum of Flight next to the first 747-100, 737-100 and 727-100 (not to be confused with the AA 727-200 in the Air Park. The first 727-100 is undergoing restoration off-site).

[Edited 2011-08-25 12:36:27]

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5668 posts, RR: 48
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18267 times:

Za004 to ZA006 will be refurbished and delivered as 787BBJ to customers.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3321 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18255 times:

My guess is that one will continue work on 787 improvements/testing. The other two have options. Sale/lease to NASA would be one as NASA needs test aircraft and the unique nature of the first 3 frames wouldn't be any extra problem for such a program. While I doubt there is any immediate need, Boeing's military side could use one for 787 military sales.

User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1333 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 18191 times:

The first 757 and 767 were converted to test aircraft for the DOD.

User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 912 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17952 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
Za004 to ZA006 will be refurbished and delivered as 787BBJ to customers.

I expect in time that ZA002-003 will get the same treatment. Boeing went to significant lengths to get the unclaimed 777-200 test aircraft off their hands in the 90s, eventually re-engining it from PW to RR engines so that CX would take delivery.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29680 posts, RR: 84
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17638 times:
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Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 5):
I expect in time that ZA002-003 will get the same treatment.

Their value has already been written down (along with ZA001) to the tune of USD 2.5 billion so I'm not sure they can be resold (at least easily).


User currently offlinenotaxonrotax From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17535 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 4):

The first 757 and 767 were converted to test aircraft for the DOD.

Do they still exist? Does Boeing want them back eventually?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 5):
Boeing went to significant lengths to get the unclaimed 777-200 test aircraft off their hands in the 90s, eventually re-engining it from PW to RR engines so that CX would take delivery.

Why not keep that one for the museum as well?? Does it still exist, would Boeing like to have it back at some stage?

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User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29680 posts, RR: 84
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17496 times:
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Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 7):
Do they still exist? Does Boeing want them back eventually?

The 757 (N757A) is at BFI last I saw. I believe the 767 (N767BA) has been scrapped.


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12061 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17474 times:

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 7):
Quoting ADent (Reply 4):

The first 757 and 767 were converted to test aircraft for the DOD.

Do they still exist? Does Boeing want them back eventually?

Sadly, B-767-200 #1 was scrapped a few years ago. The #1 B-757 was used until a few years ago as a test bed for the F-35A program. But, I believe it will be scrapped soon, if it hasn't been already.

I am sure ZA-001 will eventually make its way into Boeing's museum, but not for many years. The B-747-100 test bed aircraft was used for decades before it retired to the museum.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 17145 times:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Thread starter):
But what happens to all the test aircraft, (how many).

All but the first are normally sold (one assumes at a significant discount). The 787 is the oddball program in that Boeing took a big accounting write-down to move ZA001-ZA003 from inventory to R&D, which means they can't be sold without backing out the accounting issues behind that. Not impossible, but significantly more difficult and it complicates the business case.

Quoting EASTERN747 (Thread starter):
It must be expensive to keep them flyable.

Very.

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 7):
Quoting ADent (Reply 4):

The first 757 and 767 were converted to test aircraft for the DOD.

Do they still exist? Does Boeing want them back eventually?

Boeing itself tends not to hang on to such things...they will usually help another organization (Museum Of Flight, Flying Heritage Museum, etc.) obtain them if there is interest.

Tom.


User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3493 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 16935 times:

As the poster mentioned not knowing where the other Boeing prototypes are, here's a list:

707 (367-80): IAD (Udvar-Hazy Center)
717: LGB (scrapped)
727: PAE (Museum of Flight Restoration Center--in UA livery)
737: BFI (Museum of Flight--in NASA livery)
747: BFI (Museum of Flight)
757: BFI (active defense testbed)
767: VCV (scrapped)
777: Currently in service with CX as B-HNL

As others have said, the test 787s will probably remain with Boeing for some time to come as testbeds for that program and others. I'd be surprised if ZA001 doesn't find a home at MOF someday down the road--the others will either be converted and sold (probably to private operators) or scrapped for parts.

[Edited 2011-08-25 21:22:39]


Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 16894 times:

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
707 (367-80): IAD (Udvar-Hazy Center)

What happened to the first actual full fuselage width airframe? Though the Dash-80 is the grandaddy of the 707 and (original) 717, also to an extent the 727, 737 and 757, it's more like a testbed than an actual prototype.



The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlinemdword1959 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 16836 times:

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
757: BFI (active defense testbed)

She's generally parked at the Boeing Defense, Space & Security (BDS) Ramp just south of the Museum of Flight's campus on East Marginal Way.

See: http://planepictures.net/netsearch4.cgi?srch=N757A&srng=2&stype=reg


User currently offlineGunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3493 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 16579 times:

Quoting mdword1959 (Reply 13):
She's generally parked at the Boeing Defense, Space & Security (BDS) Ramp just south of the Museum of Flight's campus on East Marginal Way.

I live in Seattle and see her frequently--heck, I can still remember when she was still wearing Boeing house colors into the 1990's. That being said, I haven't seen her in the air for about a year, so maybe my "active" status is inaccurate.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 16078 times:

[

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 14):
Quoting mdword1959 (Reply 13):
She's generally parked at the Boeing Defense, Space & Security (BDS) Ramp just south of the Museum of Flight's campus on East Marginal Way.

I live in Seattle and see her frequently--heck, I can still remember when she was still wearing Boeing house colors into the 1990's. That being said, I haven't seen her in the air for about a year, so maybe my "active" status is inaccurate.

I can tell you for a fact that it has been active in the past year. BOE57A comes down to R2508 near EDW to work. I know I worked them at least once in the past 3 months or so.

FX1816


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10363 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 15774 times:

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 7):
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 5):
Boeing went to significant lengths to get the unclaimed 777-200 test aircraft off their hands in the 90s, eventually re-engining it from PW to RR engines so that CX would take delivery.

Why not keep that one for the museum as well?? Does it still exist, would Boeing like to have it back at some stage?

CX wanted to sell its aging non-ER 772s two or three years ago, and the 777 no.1 was rumoured to go back to Boeing. But as no one wanted to buy those early 777s at a proper price, CX apparently decided to keep them. I´d say there is a high chance the prototype may end up at BFI in a not-to-distant future, it surely deserves it.


User currently offlinemdword1959 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 15440 times:

Quoting na (Reply 16):
. I´d say there is a high chance the prototype may end up at BFI in a not-to-distant future, it surely deserves it.

If 737 production ramps-up to 40 units per month and beyond there might not be a lot of extra parking space at BFI for relatively inactive aircraft.

See: http://planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=926670

Of course there's always the "Airpark" on the Museum of Flight's campus.  

See: http://planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=933471
http://planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=933114


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2880 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 14454 times:

Would be nice if Boeing had secured the first 74L, I know its only a variant of the 747, but a groundbreaking plane that deserves the same honor. The real original ULH Aircraft, wish I could have had the honor of a flight on one. But the chances are now gone.


Rule number One, NEVER underestimate the other guys greed
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5095 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 12905 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 10):
The 787 is the oddball program in that Boeing took a big accounting write-down to move ZA001-ZA003 from inventory to R&D, which means they can't be sold without backing out the accounting issues behind that. Not impossible, but significantly more difficult and it complicates the business case.

I thought I read somewhere that, for some reason, these three birds could not be made to conform to the type certificate, which is why Boeing wrote off ZA002 and ZA003 rather than selling them as it will sell ZA004-ZA006. But that is a vague memory and could easily be totally wrong. Have you heard anything like that?

[Edited 2011-08-26 05:19:08]


Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12500 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Their value has already been written down (along with ZA001) to the tune of USD 2.5 billion so I'm not sure they can be resold (at least easily).

Accounting seeks to describe events of economic nature that affect the entity, it doesn't dictate what a company can or cannot do. Boeing can sell those planes no problem, it's just gonna take a little bit of special attention from Boeing's accounting department to record it properly. . . and not get into trouble with the SEC/IRS. But it isn't anything too complicated.

[Edited 2011-08-26 05:53:18]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12407 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 19):
I thought I read somewhere that, for some reason, these three birds could not be made to conform to the type certificate, which is why Boeing wrote off ZA002 and ZA003 rather than selling them as it will sell ZA004-ZA006. But that is a vague memory and could easily be totally wrong. Have you heard anything like that?

I remember them saying these planes were unsellable, but not the reason behind it. I don't know if this is related to type certificate or simply no one would buy them or Boeing is unwilling to sell them because of the shape they are in.

[Edited 2011-08-26 05:54:48]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11810 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 19):
I thought I read somewhere that, for some reason, these three birds could not be made to conform to the type certificate, which is why Boeing wrote off ZA002 and ZA003 rather than selling them as it will sell ZA004-ZA006. But that is a vague memory and could easily be totally wrong. Have you heard anything like that?

I never heard that they couldn't conform to the type certificate...just that it would be uneconomical to bring them up to production standard. In other words, the amount of rework would cost more than they could get by selling the aircraft. But that's also vague memory and I don't know where the truth is.

Tom.


User currently offlinenotaxonrotax From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11545 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 10):
Boeing itself tends not to hang on to such things...they will usually help another organization (Museum Of Flight, Flying Heritage Museum, etc.) obtain them if there is interest.
Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
As the poster mentioned not knowing where the other Boeing prototypes are, here's a list:

Cheers!

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 15):

I can tell you for a fact that it has been active in the past year. BOE57A comes down to R2508 near EDW to work.

Is there not enough interest to save the soul of this very 1st 757?

Quoting na (Reply 16):
I´d say there is a high chance the prototype may end up at BFI in a not-to-distant future, it surely deserves it.

That´d be cool!!
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
Sadly, B-767-200 #1 was scrapped a few years ago.

What on earth were they thinkin´???

No Tax On Rotax



Als vader voorlicht, kan je merken dat hij achter ligt.
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6533 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 11358 times:

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 7):
Why not keep that one for the museum as well?? Does it still exist, would Boeing like to have it back at some stage?

The sales deal signed with CX stipulates that if 777-200 #1 B-HNL is ever sold, that Boeing will get first choice on whether to buy it back, before it is offered to other potential customers.


25 Post contains images seabosdca : Thanks... I trust your vague memory more than my own.
26 falstaff : The prototype L1011 is scrapped, but I think the cockpit section is in Atlanta, at that Delta Museum.
27 n471wn : I agree and trust me the 2nd and 3rd "test aircraft" will find homes---Boeing will not let them sit and in fact they would be good candidates for a V
28 Post contains links and images ADent : What is better than a flying, working airplane? Would you rather it parked in a Museum? View Large View MediumPhoto © Chris Heaton
29 Gunsontheroof : Just to clear this one up, the Museum of Flight is not "Boeing's" museum just as BFI is not "Boeing's" airport. It's a privately operated non-profit
30 Ruscoe : I think the situation is that the first three aircraft would need to receive individual certifrication, rather than run off the ticket. Airbus did th
31 seabosdca : Between the cost of necessary modifications, the reduced value of the two frames due to their heavier weight, the likely tax cost of undoing the writ
32 mdword1959 : ZA001-003 were associated with $1-2B "write-off" for financial accounting as well as income tax purposes, which claimed there was no commercial value
33 474218 : I can find only one TCDS "A58NM" which seems to cover all A380 models?
34 notaxonrotax : My question was sparked by: But it´s all up in the air, so to speak. Time will tell………. Yeah, like that is gonna go on forever…….. The wri
35 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Unlike the first 737/747/757/767, the first 727 was delivered to UA in 1964. It was donated to the Museum of Flight after UA retired it in 1991. Boei
36 tdscanuck : They're terrible candidates for VIP treatment...the cost to return them to saleable state is higher than they can be sold for. Trying to sell them wo
37 Post contains links 474218 : The only problem is that all data available, EASA TCDS A.110, FAA TCDS A58NM, etc make no mention of A380's with individual certification. In fact AD
38 Stitch : I expect MSN001 through MSN024 would have individual production certificates, as they all had a great deal of re-work for wiring and cabin fitting, as
39 dynamicsguy : This is how I understand it. It was that they were not covered under the same production certificate, not that they weren't covered by the same type
40 BEG2IAH : At the time these frames were written off they became (extraordinary) expense on Boeing's books and reduced its earnings before tax (EBT) significant
41 tdscanuck : They shouldn't be...a type certificate is for a type design. The production certificate says that your production system can produce aircraft that co
42 notaxonrotax : Scrapping them.........or stripping them? The parts must be worth some dough....... I don´t think you can use them on new 787´s, (the customer woul
43 BEG2IAH : Maybe someone can provide more detail but one of my clients told me that Part 145 parts (intended for maintenance) cannot be even moved to Part 21 in
44 tdscanuck : You always strip the LRU's and recoverable parts before scrapping. Scrapping is usually just structure and parts that have little/no value after use
45 BEG2IAH : Tom, thanks. This makes sense. The key here is that it's overhauled, it's not just taken off of a written-off asset and then reinstalled on another f
46 Post contains links and images dlednicer : Since no one has posted it yet, here are all of the #1 Boeing 7-series aircraft, as they are now, except the 707, which was destroyed in an accident i
47 N685FE : Here's a little Bit of info that I had not know before, a very reputable parts broker told me this. When an a/c is involved in a reportable incident t
48 FX1816 : I think you missed my statement after KC135 posted saying that the prototype 752 is still flying more recently than a few years ago, in fact just a f
49 VC10er : In 1991 I took a tour of Boeing's Everest facility and they had (20 years ago) a real banged up looking 747-100 on the lot. Livery stripped off, it wa
50 tymnbalewne : Can you provide the details on the accident that claimed the first 707? Thanks!
51 Post contains links mdword1959 : It still may be stored with other (former) test articles north of the final assembly building in the area where fatigue testing is done. See: http://
52 Post contains links dlednicer : Boeing acquired 747-100SR 20782 /229 from Japan Airlines in 1988 as N747BN and used it for an extended fatigue test in a water tank. This is probably
53 woodsboy : Since Boeing bought MDC and actually started calling the MD aircraft "Boeing MD-80", etc, its sad that there are no MD aircraft preserved at the Museu
54 tdscanuck : Boeing doesn't own the Museum Of Flight. The MoF decides what they want to have...Boeing has been typically very willing to help them procure what th
55 mdword1959 : Another "slice" is on display at the Boeing Factory Tour in Everett.
56 FX1816 : Boeing had nothing to do with the scrapping of those airplanes though. FX1816
57 dlednicer : There is a DC-3 hanging right in the middle of the main gallery and the museum also owns a DC-2. Its ironic that the DC-3 is in the main gallery, as
58 n471wn : What Boeing said before can be changed and write offs can still be taken at full value and then any residual value is shown as income.....whether the
59 Post contains images ER757 : I believe their Concorde was aquired post-Boeing/McD merger. Nothing to do with Boeing of course but still it was a jet airliner
60 Gunsontheroof : I'm certain that the AA 727 was obtained post merger and I think that the 737 may have been as well. Boeing had nothing to do with either acquisition
61 Post contains links Viscount724 : The first 707, Pan Am's 707-121 (converted to -121B), N708PA, hit a mountain on the Caribbean island of Montserrat in poor weather on September 17, 1
62 tdscanuck : My goodness time flies...I think you guys are absolutely right, my history is out of whack. The major point that Boeing didn't really have much to do
63 Post contains links and images mdword1959 : On a related note, Boeing has released a video on the "progress" of the demolition of historic Plant #2 at BFI. http://www.boeing.com/Features/2011/08
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