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QF8 Diverts Again - This Time To Nadi  
User currently offlinecbrboy From Australia, joined Apr 2007, 120 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 28164 times:

Friday's QF8 from DFW to BNE diverted to NAN. The Qantas website shows that it spent 10 hours on the ground at NAN before continuing to BNE. Can anyone explain what happened? There have been previous problems with QF8 diversions where the crew went out of hours.

193 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7387 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 27890 times:

10 hours? I hope they let the pax off the plane. Maybe the wont have as many diversions when DFW cools off this fall.


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinemountain From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 30 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 27849 times:
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There have been several diversions going westbound due to low fuel caused by prevailing headwinds. That is one reason why QF8 is not scheduled non-stop Sydney in that direction, with instead a stop at Melbourne.

User currently offlineSRQKEF From Iceland, joined Jun 2011, 847 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 27724 times:

Quoting mountain (Reply 2):
, with instead a stop at Melbourne.

Does'nt it stop in BNE not MEL?



Flights flown: 269 - Airlines flown: 39 - Airports used: 60 - Next flights: KEF-IAD-TPA-JFK-KEF
User currently offlinewouwout From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 27451 times:

Yes BNE. MEL wouldn't make much sense.

What are the extra costs for these diversion? Would it impact the profitability of this route (enoug to ditch it)?


User currently onlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 27405 times:

The diversion to Nadi was due to the ned to refuel. However, the crew went over-hours and a new set of crew from the SYD base had to come in.


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlinegdg9 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 27256 times:

10 hours does seem like an awful long time.

User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 26893 times:

If Qantas knows westbound will have fuel issues getting even to Brisbane, one would think it would have a designated stop ready and waiting, with crew dispatch expedited.

Does the entire crew get replaced or just the pilots?


User currently offlineAeroplaneFreak From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 532 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 25322 times:
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They need to cut the AKL-LAX route, and make QF8 DFW-AKL-SYD.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8091 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 25149 times:
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The DFW to Brisbane flight is almost 16 hours, with ALL the computer systems a 747-400ER has they must know if they have to stop hours before the get to Fiji. QF should be able to get a crew from Sydney to Nadi by the time the DFW flights gets to Nadi. 10 hours is just ridiculous to make pasengers wait.

User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4773 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 24829 times:

Quoting AeroplaneFreak (Reply 8):
They need to cut the AKL-LAX route, and make QF8 DFW-AKL-SYD.

I AKL-LAX should still be viable (perhaps 5x week) with A332. But as I have said all along DFW should be via AKL... allows for good connections from MEL, SYD and well even though its a backtrack somewhat from BNE, those pax have to when flying to DFW anyway.



54 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2679 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 23707 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
The DFW to Brisbane flight is almost 16 hours, with ALL the computer systems a 747-400ER has they must know if they have to stop hours before the get to Fiji.

ALL the computer systems the 747-400ER has are the same as a 737 or an A330 or an EMB-190.

You get a forecast of the weather at the start of the flight and on a 16 hour flight, things can change.

If they left DFW with a full load of fuel and the winds were significantly more than forecast then there was nothing they could have done.

You might have an inkling that a diversion is possible hours prior but the decision to divert is not for another few hours.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5946 posts, RR: 30
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 23343 times:
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Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 7):
If Qantas knows westbound will have fuel issues getting even to Brisbane, one would think it would have a designated stop ready and waiting, with crew dispatch expedited.

Not the if the diversion is not planned. It is usually decided at a time that would make your sceaniro not palusible. Actually, given the time when the decision to divert was probalbly taken, 10 hrs is not bad to get a crew to Nadi and take over the plane.

On a related note, I assume the out of time crew deadheads on the same plane?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
The DFW to Brisbane flight is almost 16 hours, with ALL the computer systems a 747-400ER has they must know if they have to stop hours before the get to Fiji. QF should be able to get a crew from Sydney to Nadi by the time the DFW flights gets to Nadi.

No, the weather is not as predictable as you might think, and ALL the computers of the 747-400ER are still not Artificial Intelligence grade, so no, they can´t exactly predict how the headwinds will eventually turn out to be en route.



MGGS
User currently onlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1785 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 23127 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 7):
Does the entire crew get replaced or just the pilots?

My understanding is that just the pilots would be replaced because:

1) Only legal requirement is for pilots. There is no law stating that the cabin crew can only be in the air for so long (apart from labour laws).

2) The cost of shipping out an entirely new cabin crew for a B747 would be exorbitant. It would be more feasible to just pay the existing cabin crew the overtime.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8091 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 22408 times:
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Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 11):
If they left DFW with a full load of fuel and the winds were significantly more than forecast then there was nothing they could have done

I realize weather changes enroute, the fuel load when they left DFW may have been enough for the takeoff forcast but the pilots had to know hours before they got to Fiji they were going to have to land there. Qantas must have had over 8 hours of notice before that plane landed in Nadi. Enough time to gather a crew and fly from Sydney to Nadi.


User currently offlinedelta-flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 2676 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 21720 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
Qantas must have had over 8 hours of notice before that plane landed in Nadi. Enough time to gather a crew and fly from Sydney to Nadi.

Even if the 8 hours mentioned above were not enough, say it took 12 hours, then there would have been only a 4 hour delay, not 10!


User currently offlinenzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1515 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 21265 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
QF should be able to get a crew from Sydney to Nadi by the time the DFW flights gets to Nadi. 10 hours is just ridiculous to make pasengers wait.

Australia-NAN is not exactly BOS-LGA with hourly departures . Most airlines on the routes only operate once daily . So a ten hour delay is not bad for a diversion to a island in the middle of the south pacific .



"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineSpeedbirdScott From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 20429 times:

Hello fellow A.netter... first time posting here on the forum although have enjoyed keeping up on commercial aviation here for years. Seems such a shame QF having such tremendous difficulties. Flew two glorious trips with them from the US to OZ and all over OZ and back. And I was amazed at how superior their service standards were in comparison to so many US and even European airlines. Sad to see all the bad press. But I guess the OZ market is now feeling the intense competition that the US and European markets have felt for so many years now.  

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2885 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 20139 times:

How long will QF keep allowing these unscheduled stops to occur before changing routing, aircraft type? Seems they can't keep advertising nonstop service from DFW to OZ when it's becoming routine for them to have these island diversions. At some point it's plain false advertising. In these cases it seems a routing via LAX will get you to SYD faster.


Rule number One, NEVER underestimate the other guys greed
User currently offlinevaus77w From Australia, joined Aug 2011, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 19439 times:

Would their A380's be able to fly to DFW-SYD leg, or at least the DFW-BNE reliably?

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8091 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 19376 times:
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Quoting nzrich (Reply 16):
Australia-NAN is not exactly BOS-LGA with hourly departures . Most airlines on the routes only operate once daily . So a ten hour delay is not bad for a diversion to a island in the middle of the south pacific .

Qantas flies many flights from east coast cities to Fiji, the passengers from the DFW flight deseve better then to get stranded in Fiji.


User currently offlineditzyboy From Australia, joined Feb 2008, 700 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 19237 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 7):
Does the entire crew get replaced or just the pilots?

The entire crew.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 12):
On a related note, I assume the out of time crew deadheads on the same plane?

After operating so many hours, crew agreements stipulate a rest period must be undertaken. Sometimes, allowances are made for crew that want to get home. In Australia deadheading is still seen as duty time to a certain degree.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
Qantas must have had over 8 hours of notice before that plane landed in Nadi. Enough time to gather a crew and fly from Sydney to Nadi.

In the area of long haul cabin crew, despite announcing redundancies, Qantas is very short at the moment. Aircraft are leaving Australian without the minimum number of crew (from a service point of view) every day. If an entire 747 cabin crew needs to be put together at short notice, you'll find most of them are on days off or annual leave. Reserve coverage is minimal. Apparently Alan Joyce hates the idea of crew sitting around on reserve, despite running an airline, where it makes commercial and common sense to have such operational flexibility.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10998 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 19190 times:

Quoting wouwout (Reply 4):
What are the extra costs for these diversion? Would it impact the profitability of this route (enoug to ditch it)?

If I'm in Dallas, and I need to get to Sydney, I'm not going to take QF8. I'm going to connect in LAX, so I *know* that I will get there when I expect to. These are way too many diversions.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 19188 times:

Is there any chance that this diversion wasn't actually weather related? They would usually stop in NOU if the headwinds were unfavourable (and the crews wouldn't have timed out), so stopping so far out means that the winds must have been absolutely horrendous...

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 10):
But as I have said all along DFW should be via AKL...

100% agree.

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 19):
Would their A380's be able to fly to DFW-SYD leg, or at least the DFW-BNE reliably?

The 2 that are coming in 2013/14 should easily be able to do DFW-BNE reliabily - SYD I'm not so sure about...


User currently offlinenzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1515 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 18889 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 20):
Qantas flies many flights from east coast cities to Fiji, the passengers from the DFW flight deseve better then to get stranded in Fiji.

Actually Qantas does not fly to NAN with QF metal it puts it code on other flights mainly Air Pacific and a few Jetstar from SYD . But even from SYD its not always twice daily . So it doesn't have many flights to get a whole new crew to NAN .



"Pride of the pacific"
25 gemuser : For as long as it is necessary! People there is NOTHING unusual in fuel diversions across the Pacific, it is standard operating procdure, happens on
26 SUNRISEVALLEY : These QF8 diversions are rather puzzling . The FlightAware tracking taken from the various control center's data for this flight of the 26th., from th
27 bps3458 : Mate, I am exactly the opposite. I am so glad we can fly to/from Texas without having to fly a domestic segment in the US on a US carrier. Flew via L
28 gasman : I can certainly see why you'd say this, but - no thanks. That would leave NZ with zero competition on AKL-LAX. Which is hardly likely to improve thin
29 thegeek : Care to post some supporting arguments? Even if they did fly AKL-DFW, I don't see why AKL-LAX needs to go. The A332 used on the AKL-LAX route couldn'
30 Post contains images Airvan00 : Look carefully again at the timetable!! JQ only flys 4 times a week to NAN. The only time I have been "stranded" on QF we were bussed to a motel and
31 KFlyer : It's an unfortune situation. But QF could have done better. At least switch that BNE stop to somewhere in the pacific? I doubt that they get a lot of
32 thegeek : Someone has posted in another thread that more than half of the flight leaves QF8 in BNE. The question is does it result in a lot of air on the LAX-&
33 Airvan00 : Didn't someone post on here that the majority of pax left the aircraft in BNE for connecting flights to other cities? (apart from SYD) Is this the 4t
34 eoinnz : I thought the diversion was due to weather, as my Mum who was coming to Brisbane also had her flight divert too. There have been 3 or 4 diversions (an
35 thegeek : Do you have said statistics? Can you post them?
36 eoinnz : This was mentioned on a cabin crew call we have every month so don't have anything to actually share. But it came from the head of cabin crew at Qant
37 SUNRISEVALLEY : This is another A.net canard. There was a posting a couple of years ago from someone who knew what the charges were. They were very reasonable.
38 Post contains links willzzz88 : 1. QF can make this problem go away to 100% reliability instead of 95-98% by switching the BNE stop to AKL. In AKL possibly. JetConnect can have AKL-B
39 cbrboy : QF8 began 4 times a week DFW-BNE on 16 May, so as of Saturday 27 August it had flown 60 times. There have been five diversions so far, of which one w
40 GoBoeing : What are you basing this statement on? How do you know that?
41 qf002 : It really does not happen to MEL anymore. Sure the diversions used to happen from time to time, but they simply do not happen any more due to the pla
42 RWA380 : I understand QF employees, loyal fliers and Australians standing behind their carrier, wouldn't a bigger fuel load, or a little less cargo when depart
43 Post contains links dfwexecplat : Here's a very interesting article someone had posted on another thread, but about mid way down article it specifically refers to DFW's profitability,
44 thegeek : What's interesting in that link is that it doesn't mention the DFW route as a chance to see A380 service, in spite of mentioning every other 744 dest
45 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Countless physicians go 2,3,4,5 hours "over-hours" yet they don't all of the sudden decide to go home....I can't recall my father doing an angiolplas
46 tdscanuck : Physicians don't have their license pulled and be unable to practice medicine again for the rest of their lives if they run over hours... Tom.
47 aerorobnz : 10h sounds like the mandatory rest time required before the same crew can operate again, rather than a whole new crew from SYD
48 Post contains links igomarch : saw QF7 arriving into DFW, very hot weather http://youtu.be/T3NhnJEwSGo
49 IndianicWorld : Seriously, this again???? These things are not threadworthy each time they happen.
50 KELPkid : Does New Zealand allow fifth freedom US-NZ service? I.E. could DFW-AKL be ticketed by an Aussie carrier?
51 AR385 : Well aside, from telling you with all due respect that if that is the case, your father is a physician I would really never see nor let come near me,
52 eoinnz : Really? Can you then please back up your reply with a source as to why I am wrong?[Edited 2011-08-28 22:53:11]
53 thegeek : Yes. Open skies exist between Australia and NZ AIUI. QF currently operate MEL-AKL-LAX so it's obviously not a problem. Could be for cabin though. I'd
54 Post contains images wn700driver : Think about what you're saying... What in the hell is better than being stranded in Fiji?! Seriously. I can remember each and every flight to OZ I've
55 gasman : Ha. I love it! You definitely wouldn't let me near you then! As a physician myself, I get so bored with the parallels that are often drawn between av
56 Post contains images Jacobin777 : True, but they will for anything perceived as a felony, no matter if it was a mistake, etc. Doctors get sued all the time-many times for frivolous it
57 qf002 : I'm looking at theqantassource.com - in the past 6 months (all I could be bothered to click through), the only diversions that have occurred for QF94
58 thegeek : If by all the time you mean a few times/year in SYD and less often in BNE, then I believe you are correct. Google reckons fog occurred at BNE 27/8/20
59 qf002 : Oh yes, it's not exactly a daily occurrence - I was just pointing out that SYD/BNE get their fair share of weather related diversions, and that these
60 wn700driver : Wow, just way wow (can you tell I'm not a doctor?!). This is amazing, if for no other reason then that for all the people in the world who should kno
61 aerorobnz : It is feasible to increase permissible operational hours or reduce minimum rest time by doing things like increasing the number of tech crew from 3-4
62 GSPflyer : *Insert generic "This is why QF needs to order the 77L or 77W" comment here* You know they are coming when you read the title.
63 gemuser : This quote certainly shows up the old saying "there are lies, damm lies and Statistics". There have been THREE diversions due to the aircraft's range
64 thegeek : I can believe BNE-DFW (with a 789), but I don't see any aircraft on their way which are likely to be able to do MEL-DFW without being severely restri
65 RyanairGuru : QF do not have any 747 pilots at AKL, and if Ditzyboy is right to say the following about SYD... ...there no chance in hell of them cobbling together
66 qf002 : They managed to do it when the diversion did occur, not sure how if they're that stretched... Also, the AKL diversion was due to hours running out af
67 Jacobin777 : With respect, those are two incidents out of tens of thousands of flights/year.
68 aerorobnz : maybe not, but they do have multiple SYD/BNE/MEL flights they can fly them easily with a DFW-LAX-AKL flight time. The same can't be said for NAN/NOU.
69 AA777223 : May I point out something that it seems no one here has stated yet? This flight began in may sometime, yes? For those of you who may have not visited
70 mogandoCI : if that's the case why didn't QF pre-plan a fuel stop at LAX, HNL, or AKL instead of putting the fate and reputation in the hands of luck ? if the co
71 LAXdude1023 : It may be time for QF to think about different equipment for this flight.
72 sccutler : We are having heat which is very unusual this summer here; highs in the mid to high 100s, when low nineties are the norm. I should imagine that QF are
73 mcg : Were the passengers able to leave the airport in NAN? There are worse fates than 10 hours in Fiji.
74 mountain : Acquire Media (a financial news service) is reporting the flight was diverted due to fog at Brisbane. The alternate of Noumea was also fogged in. The
75 sccutler : A prudent and safe decision.
76 Zkpilot : the entire crew. QF crew have a 20 hour limit (which is 2 or more hours more than most airlines I might add) Actually there is law just not specifica
77 Zkpilot : And yet they don't work at 36,000ft, or in a low oxygen environment, or have jetlag, or have to potentially evacuate 300 pax in a smoke filled, fire
78 Mir : Considering that the rules are too lax as it is, changing them to something acceptable would result in more pilots going over hours. -Mir
79 Jacobin777 : Being at work on Monday morning @ 7:00 a.m. and not being home until Tuesday 5:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. is well north of 25 hours - more like 35-36 hours
80 Mir : Multiple crews get extensions. The limit (at least for the FAA) is 8 hours for one crew, plus four hours for each additional pilot. So if you've got
81 Post contains links cbrboy : QF8 DFW-BNE-SYD began operating on 16 May 2011. The first diversion to NOU occurred on 23 May, and the second on 15 July. On 16 July it flew a flight
82 airbazar : The weather isn't but the equipment is. Everyone, including QF know that the 744ER has problems flying this route non-stop so the argument for having
83 Post contains links and images willzzz88 : Ok here's a actual first person account: http://www.airlinetest.com.au/qantas/qf8-dallas-sydney-review Link from Crikey blog: http://blogs.crikey.com.
84 thegeek : NO!!! The 74E is the most appropriate equipment QF have at present for the flight. A380 could do it also but they would have to take one off an LHR o
85 sccutler : Well, we've been having temperatures, at 10:00 P.M., in the mid to upper 90s (high 30s in Celsius). Bad deal.
86 Post contains images BoeingGuy : QF didn't have this problem when they went to SFO instead of DFW...... Maybe it's time for QF to purchase some 777-200LRs?
87 qf002 : Here too - so this is not a range related issue. Can we drop the 74E discussion now please?? That's really no worse than what these planes deal with
88 qfa787380 : And with them deferring/cancelling their last 6 380 deliveries, I don't think the 380 is going to see SYD-DFW for a long time, if ever. I suspect the
89 eaglefarm4 : Expect QF008 to be daily from 01dec.
90 qfa787380 : And not operated by a 380!
91 qf002 : Fingers crossed!! My concern is, however, that with 74E's rotating out of the fleet to have the new product installed they are not going to have the
92 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Thanks for the update and input. . I wonder at least in theory that there would be a better (optimal) rotation... Damn right.....should of kept SFO..
93 ikramerica : So 3 diversions due to fuel. 1 medical. 1 fog. And lots of baggage left behind. Not great but not awful. Bookings indicate pax want to "risk it" so le
94 Post contains links Viscount724 : Yesterday, the DFW airport temperature at 10 PM was still 96.1F (35.6C). Scroll down on following page for hourly temperatures. http://weather.noaa.g
95 qfa787380 : With only 14 380s to be in service until very late this decade(and I contend they will never receive the last 6 and 110 320/320Neo orders pretty much
96 thegeek : You're ignoring A380s #13 & #14 which can operate SYD-DFW.
97 jetfuel : They should have diverted to CNS, a far more tolerable place to be waiting than Nadi. There was no alternate requirement for CNS on the day. Poor deci
98 AAIL86 : All things considered, this is not an extreme diversion rate. As has been said already, this is a new ULH route which started operating during a extr
99 qf002 : qfa787380 - where do you propose that the more capable A380s coming in 2013/14 will be used? QF will have 2000 weekly seats DFW-SYD if the rumors of
100 thegeek : Seems unlikely that they would have had enough fuel for that, and even if they did, I'd suggest they would have been committed to landing there with
101 bps3458 : With relatives living in Texas I am one of these "risk it" passengers who is thrilled that I can fly directly in to DFW without the need to fly US do
102 AR385 : The diversion rate, as explained, does not justify it. This is probably a full two senior-staffed flight deck crew flight already, and you want every
103 RyanairGuru : From where the aircraft was when it diverted (NW of NOU, W of VLI) CNS was ~400mi further away than BNE (according to gcmap.com). That's almost the e
104 qf002 : It doesn't sound from the stats that have been floating around like J is overly busy, so I imagine that Y will probably be quite full. As a side note
105 qfa787380 : Possibly but I think it's more likely to go to a 789 if anything. What will QF eventually operate on the SYD-FRA flight? I suspect MEL/SYD-LAX and LH
106 thegeek : The flightaware track is most illuminating on this point. If they near-overflew NOU and backtracked to NAN, then I guess they didn't have any forekno
107 EK413 : This flight continues to scream out B77L... EK413
108 RyanairGuru : From what I can gather they could configure the entire aircraft with Economy Plus and sell every seat, but demand for J and Y are lower.
109 smi0006 : Can the route be operated daily by just two A380s in a three class config? Or does it require an aditional aircraft? Also does the route currently ope
110 Post contains images qf002 : LHR and LAX will use 12 A380s with plenty of room to do mx at LAX predominantly. The current A380 has more range than the 74E (and I'd agree with the
111 thegeek : daily MEL/SYD-SIN-LHR & MEL/SYD-LAX would only require 10 aircraft if none of them ever require maintenance and are never reconfigured. Not sure
112 qf002 : The 12 includes all mx work (and having such a tight fleet, they will need to heavily factor in things like month long heavy checks at FRA) and allow
113 nonrevman : I did a trip report on the two flights in July. There were no empty seats, and my bag did make it both ways. Had some issues with delays, but thankfu
114 mogandoCI : QF can also do what TG and SQ did when range-challenged - lighten the d**n thing by increasing J/Y+ and reducing Y. Charge a premium for the non-stop
115 SUNRISEVALLEY : The fact's are that QF are effectively operating the A380 with a payload penalty by virtue of restricting the seating to 458.
116 bill142 : [quote=EK413,reply=107]This flight continues to scream out B77L...[/quote Well it would appear that TAM have some A345s they no longer need so they'r
117 Post contains links thegeek : Maybe we should tell Alan Joyce that we have the problem solved. Even if the A380 takes over SYD-DFW, these A345 would be useful for MEL-DFW and poss
118 qantas077 : well if it landed at NAN with 45min of fuel onboard, what does that tell you?
119 nonrevman : Apparently, the Fiji diversion experience was not as one would hope for. They landed at 7am in NAN and no one was even able to leave their seat until
120 ditzyboy : Qantas do not have any 74Es. 74E being a 747-400 Combi.
121 travelin man : I just have to ask, having never done it myself: Is the transit experience at LAX from T4 to TBIT (or T4-T4) really THAT bad? I get that people want t
122 RyanairGuru : Not if they're sealed in a tamper-evident plastic bag as they should have been. Also, since the flight departs from the International Terminal at BNE
123 qf002 : These aircraft only have 307 seats anyway, with 14 F and 66J - F will be removed and J is going down to 52 with the refits. If the corporate loadings
124 Post contains images SUNRISEVALLEY : Sorry, my mental arithmetic was off The point I was making is that all existing operators other than KE seat between 489 and 538 passengers. By only
125 bill142 : You could also argue that the extra 18 inches of seat pitch in J over the 747 contributed to the lower density config compared to other airlines.
126 ikramerica : It used to be that SYD left from T4 anyway, but that was before the A380. And if you arrived SYD early in the morning, you would arrive T4 or TBIT an
127 mcg : Thanks for the info, I'm sure it was a long day for everyone involved. Six hours + on the NAN terminal would get pretty old pretty quickly. Question:
128 thegeek : SUV is slightly shorter than WLG, which required offloading pax and cargo to get a UA 747 out of it. I'd wonder if they'd go back to NOU?
129 qf002 : I doubt that they'd have enough fuel to get back to NOU from NAN and land (also, NOU was fogged in so they'd need to consider potential need to go ar
130 truemanQLD : I am sure they could have landed at SUV, and yes, taking off would have been a problem, but with 45mins fuel, I question whether they could safely ge
131 SUNRISEVALLEY : Apparently it has a Cat 1. ILS which is...quote-- a precision instrument approach and landing with a decision height not lower than 200 feet (61 m) a
132 koruman : If Noumea and Nadi were closed the obvious alternative would be the French airport at Wallis island, if it was operating. Wallis is basically French S
133 eaglefarm4 : Full first month of stats now out for June 2011 17 flights inbound TTL pax for BNE 2331 and SYD 1842 TTL 4173 PAX BNE 137 pax per flight and SYD 108 p
134 thegeek : Given that there are 307 available seats on the plane, that is a stunning load for such a new flight. I thought it was weight restricted.
135 gemuser : So total ex DFW = 245 for a load factor of 80% Why only? That's a load factor of 94%! As thegeek says "that is a stunning load for such a new flight"
136 RyanairGuru : Does QF actually market every seat on the DFW-BNE flight? Or do they limit it to, say, 85% of total capacity? Also, of course, SYD bound passengers m
137 koruman : There may be 307 seats per flight for sale, but it is a 747-400, a 353 seat aircraft. The DFW-BNE is now well-known to be the one with the range/weig
138 gemuser : No its not! Its normally a 307 seat aircraft 14F, 66J, 40W & 187Y with the F sold as J. QF B744s come in 307, 353, 371 and 412 seat configs. Gemu
139 qf002 : Cheers for that. I guess that it was probably pretty bad otherwise they would have just let the plane land itself at NOU, and left themselves in a be
140 koruman : Point taken, but it is a pretty unorthodox use of a 747-400 to carry 80J / 40 W / 187Y to the absolute limit of its range. I understand the rationale
141 thegeek : Technically yes, practically, I'd be surprised. TAM lease these from AC. Are they allowed to sub-lease them on to QF? And the config is less premium
142 Airvan00 : I don't think he meant only 4905 pax which as been pointed on is a very good average on an aircraft that only has 307 seats, despite some misinformed
143 Post contains images gemuser : Ah, quite possibly. I must admit I read it as SYD, only 4905. God did invent commas for a reason Gemuser
144 thegeek : With this flight being sooo successful, should QF be flying to TXL and/or DUS once Air Berlin become part of One World? Is there much chance that they
145 Post contains links cbrboy : It's a bit hard to be certain about exactly what combination of seating is being sold. We know, as you say, that the F seats are being sold as J clas
146 eaglefarm4 : Outbound SYD only 4905 pax or 289 a flight. BTRE show pax on QF 15 as the departure flight to Dallas and as this flight only departs from Sydney, not
147 eaglefarm4 : Oops meant QF 007 not QF 015. Sorry.
148 Post contains images truemanQLD : How is that, in the slightest, related to the DFW flights? The success of TXL or DUS flights would be completely unrelated to how the DFW flights per
149 thegeek : What I mean is the DFW flight connects to a OW hub, and so would a TXL/DUS flight in the future.
150 gemuser : While true, it's the SCALE of the hub at the other end that is the issue. DFW is the worlds 2nd largest airline hub, TXL/DUS is pretty small in contr
151 qf002 : It's also pretty unorthodox for SQ to fill an A345 with 100 J seats and fly it for 18 hours over the North Pole to the edge of its range. It's pretty
152 Post contains images cbrboy : Services to OneWorld hubs are not an end in themselves. Opening the DFW service made a lot of sense because it gave more direct access to many ports
153 Post contains links cbrboy : I hadn't realised the level of detail published in BITRE's monthly data, but it is also apparent that Qantas got pretty good loads in the first two w
154 thegeek : Take your point there. And what would be 2 stopping services aren't necessarily competitive to EK's 1 stopping services to many destinations. Which i
155 RyanairGuru : I've personally thought it was likely ever since they launched SYD (and long before QF launched DFW). In fact, my personal [conspiracy] theory is tha
156 ditzyboy : The 14 P seats are sold as J. The 14 C Zone J seats are sold as W, in addition to the 12 W seats. The 28 W seats in D Zone ae sold as Y. The cosmetic
157 AirGabon : They should fly DFW-NOU (Noumea, New Caledonia)-SYD, as NOU being a tech stop and crew change station.
158 truemanQLD : Is that a joke? What advantage is there to stopping in NOU over Nadi, AKL or even LAX. There is virtually no DFW-NOU traffic (and even if there were,
159 Post contains links Springbok747 : Still don't understand why QF didn't bother ordering some 777LRs...at least they can make the route both directions. And why is QF so focused on its r
160 RyanairGuru : Well I guess that explains why W is always booked out. I (without any actual data) seriously believe that W is wayyy to small, I just can't decide th
161 gemuser : Simple! The cost of buying and operating the B77L would be too great for the profit (if any) to be made. IF QF already operated B777s it would be a d
162 qf002 : Um, if you book a flight with QF you are offered the option of flying through LAX or DFW in most cases, so it's hardly as it QF is forcibly taking pe
163 Post contains images cbrboy : Heh, heh, heh ...
164 LAXdude1023 : An interesting side note. I flew BA 192 from DFW to LHR yesterday and I couldn't help but notice the large number of Australian passports people were
165 AR385 : If i´m not mistaken, NZ operated AKL-DFW in the late 80s, early 90s and did not wotk for them. What were the reasons for this? and if so, why are peo
166 Lufthansa747 : I would expect that as the bare minimum on any proper airline. Sure DFW-BNE is double crewed in the front, and cabin crews take their rest for hours.
167 Post contains images Springbok747 : So why didn't QF change its options to the 77L..once they knew the 787 wasn't going to be delivered anytime soon? "A couple of years" can make quite
168 Post contains links Viscount724 : According to Reply 1 in the 1999 thread below, the NZ service to DFW was once a week. It included a stop at PPT and continued to LGW, routing AKL-PPT
169 Post contains links and images thegeek : I doubt there was never such a moment that the delays led to the 77L possible delivery date was earlier than the forecast 787 delivery date after the
170 RyanairGuru : Don't forget that the majority of passengers on QF16 ARE NOT going to Sydney. For MEL, CBR, ADL, PER, CNS etc it, honestly, makes no difference wheth
171 The Coachman : I would argue that the return leg via BNE actually, although necessary due to the aircraft's range, is the beginning of the Sydney-centric thinking o
172 Post contains images qf002 : If they are then they're deliberately doing it - when you search for Australia-LHR on the QF/BA sites you will always be routed via Asia (where the J
173 thegeek : I can live with QF107/108 and BNE-LAX sticking with 744s. I think QF7/8 is far more important than getting the second daily frequencies on A380s. Eve
174 qf002 : :D At bare minimum, they need 10 frames to operate two daily flights to LHR via SIN and SYD/MEL to LAX. Then add a frame contingency and to allow for
175 QF15 : An idea i just had is send the next new A380 to DFW, instead of taking MEL-LAX to daily A380. Leaving one of the soon to be reconfigured interior 744E
176 thegeek : That would lack F for those days. Not sure if it would be preferred to have some of the old configuration 744ERs.
177 Airvan00 : Isn't that going to happen anyway. I mean the lack of F. Because all the 744ERs and S, T & U are to be converted to the new 3 class in the next 1
178 koruman : You're going to be waiting for a helluva long time for that bird. I think it's becoming pretty clear what the 787-9 is going to be delivered as, and
179 qf002 : But by then the route will be all A380s so it's not an issue.
180 thegeek : Not to MEL-LAX. You don't think missing the BNE stop 3 times per week would be an advantage? Once Nancy Bird is back they should have enough A380s to
181 Airvan00 : I think I am agreeing with you. If an ER route needs an F cabin it will be an A380. On the 3 ER routes MEL-LAX, SYD-DFW and currently SYD-EZE, the de
182 qf002 : EZE hasn't had F for a long time, so that's not an issue. ER aircraft will continue to fly the route, and even to SCL I doubt a 'normal' 744 would ha
183 AR385 : So the reason it did not work for them was because it had to make a stop? Obviously it had to be a 742, otherwise the PPT stop would have not taken p
184 thegeek : No, that wasn't the only reason. Of course. There was also the weekly frequency (as you point out), and probably DFW wasn't as big a hub as it is tod
185 Post contains images Airvan00 : I'm just trying to understand the plan. Maybe there wasn't a plan. It now looks strange that the conversion of the oldest 747s into the 2.5 class (fo
186 Post contains images CXB77L : I don't know where the impression that the 787 is an ultra long haul aircraft comes from. It isn't. It has about the same range as a 77E/77W, perhaps
187 SUNRISEVALLEY : . Based on the passenger figures earlier in the tread they have a long way to go before an A380 would be viable on this route.
188 thegeek : For SYD-DFW, how do you figure? Loads are over 90% O/B and would be the same I/B once removing blacked out seats. Seems the only thing preventing thi
189 qf002 : Fair enough - they do seem to change their mind quite a bit!! When Boeing started this project it was a plane with 8,000-8,500nm which means it can d
190 thegeek : MEL-LAX is only double daily if you count QF25/26 MEL-AKL-LAX. And that would be just silly. It's never been double daily direct AFAIK.
191 qf002 : I know, technically it's double daily though... Besides, the point remains that MEL-LAX has zero issues supporting a daily A380.
192 Post contains images SUNRISEVALLEY : You are making an assumption. Boeing say they are. Pat Shanahan VP Airplane Programs for Boeing in an interview with John Ostrower of Air Transport I
193 aerorobnz : There is a difference between the 77L and 789. Even if they both could fly the route for range, the 77L can swallow a decent volume of cargo revenue -
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