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AA Need Permission From Employees?,?,?  
User currently offlinecx828 From Hong Kong, joined May 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 11712 times:
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As both CX and AA would have a chance to start or codeshare HKG-DFW, but AA need to get the PERMISSION from their emnployees before they can start such long haul, did AA forget or did not pay the salary to their employees??

[Edited 2011-08-28 06:28:22]

[Edited 2011-08-28 06:28:55]

[Edited 2011-08-28 06:30:19]

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegrain From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 11434 times:

Airlines do have contracts with their employees. So when an airline wants to change that they need to ask the employees permission.

User currently offlinecx828 From Hong Kong, joined May 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 11310 times:
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it is ridiculous that a company would sign that contracts. Is this a norm that US airlines do or just AA did?? How about UA and DL, did they need to get the permission before lauching the flights to NRT, HKG and other Asian destinations??

User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5969 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 11222 times:

Quoting cx828 (Reply 2):
Is this a norm that US airlines do or just AA did?? How about UA and DL, did they need to get the permission before lauching the flights to NRT, HKG and other Asian destinations??

This is unique to AA, flights over 16 (I think) hours require AA to reach a side agreement with their pilots union. Neither DL or UA have that stipulation in their contract.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8374 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 11174 times:
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Quoting United1 (Reply 3):
Is this a norm that US airlines do or just AA did?? How about UA and DL, did they need to get the permission before lauching the flights to NRT, HKG and other Asian destinations??

This is unique to AA, flights over 16 (I think) hours require AA to reach a side agreement with their pilots union. Neither DL or UA have that stipulation in their contract

AA needs to eliminate the "limit" clause from its pilot contract. Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era. Raises or "snap-backs" may not be realistic in today's airline market.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11641 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 11046 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era.

Though I am not an AA pilot, I would guess that if you asked most AA pilots to identify the source of the "bitterness" between the APA and AA management, they would probably attribute about 99% of that blame towards Carty and Arpey, not Crandall.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10161 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era.

One of the biggest issues with the pilots that I hear about concerns the management bonuses and incentives given to "keep quality people" back when the airline was near bankruptcy. The unions all gave concessions to cut salary and benefits, and many of the higher level executives got incentives and bonuses.

While the pilots understood the need to trim the airline expenses, and most also understand that the few tens of millions of dollars given to executives was only a drop in the bucket on the scale needed - it left a bad taste for many of the pilots.

The mechanics, the customer service staff, the baggage handlers, the ground crews, the flight attendants, the pilots, the average administrative worker - all took pay cuts.

And upper management got more money. Frankly I was surprised at the time, and expected the 'bad faith' to cause problems for years. All the management workers should have taken similar level pay cuts, and when money was restored to salaries, it should have gone across the board, not the upper management first.

That is how other airlines did things. But the AA leadership had to be different. Also it was Carty and Arpey, not Crandall.


User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3107 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10094 times:

In a way, I don't blame the employees' mistrust towards management. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me: this describes the attitude of the employees. They gave up a lot only to find that management (Carty) was using it to their advantage.

Unless Arpey takes concrete steps to regain the trust of the employees and keep it, I support management asking employees for changes. It's perhaps the only reminder management has that employees are not something to run over.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7233 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9746 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):
Unless Arpey takes concrete steps to regain the trust of the employees and keep it, I support management asking employees for changes. It's perhaps the only reminder management has that employees are not something to run over.

I'm sure they would love to go to Chpt.11 and abrogate all those employee contracts, fortunately / unfortunately for AA, UA got the rules changed, and they chose not to follow NW to take advantage of the expiring conditions.

What exactly can AA do, they just bought Airbus onboard, if some pilots still have bad blood for management I guess they may also have some for Airbus and the A300 crash in NYC.
Only thing I can see them doing to placate the pilots is to pay them, they can certainely try to play other employee groups off against the pilots which I think they did before, did not work then may not work now. Cost are already at a disadvantage and the strategy of waiting until other carriers cost increase to match their is slow to materialize.
If the board is actively involved they could attempt to make massive management changes and see if that works, after all, their loyalty is to their share values and not the staff they hire, additionally, most management probably have golden parachutes so their landing will be soft compared to line staff.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8374 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9379 times:
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Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era.

Though I am not an AA pilot, I would guess that if you asked most AA pilots to identify the source of the "bitterness" between the APA and AA management, they would probably attribute about 99% of that blame towards Carty and Arpey, not Crandall.

Carty certainly has enough to blame but he was like Bush taking over for Reagan, as close to the original as there was available at the time.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
Its time AA and ts pilots get passed the bitterness of the Crandall era.

One of the biggest issues with the pilots that I hear about concerns the management bonuses and incentives given to "keep quality people" back when the airline was near bankruptcy. The unions all gave concessions to cut salary and benefits, and many of the higher level executives got incentives and bonuses

There is always lots of "biterness" between management and labor, ok. But the labor we are taking about can make $250,000 - 300,000 USD yearly. We are talking about a bunch of rich people managing some rich and mostly almost rich people. The VP of XXX can move to another Fortune 500 company and get a fat salary and bonus contract, a 50 year old 777 captain can NOT go to DL or United and be a 777 captain. HE can go to Qatar Air or Emirates if Dubai or Doha seems exotic to finish his career.

Make the deal that has to be made to fly the A320's and 787-9's and flying to Hong Kong.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11641 posts, RR: 61
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9057 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
Carty certainly has enough to blame but he was like Bush taking over for Reagan, as close to the original as there was available at the time.

Not at all - it would be difficult to find two leaders with different styles than Crandall and Carty. They are two extremely different people, and were two extremely different managers.

Crandall created a self-sustaining machine with a young fleet and strong balance sheet - he was at all times in complete and total command of all things AA, and was intimately engaged in every aspect of how the company's finances were managed. Carty was less engaged, and far less emotionally involved.

AA was Crandall's identity, AA was merely Carty's job.

And, most importantly in the context of this conversation, Crandall generally had the respect of most of AA's rank-and-file, even many of the union members, whether they liked him or not, while the same could not be said for Carty.


User currently onlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8915 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 5):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
But the labor we are taking about can make $250,000 - 300,000 USD yearly.

A very select few make that much money. Many pilots will never earn the big bucks flying 74's or 77's for their company. The perception that being an airline pilot means you're rich is false.



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8772 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
The VP of XXX can move to another Fortune 500 company and get a fat salary and bonus contract,

I hear that but I'm sorry, I don't see it happening very often.

The relatively few people who can move easily do so anyway.

Also this needs to keep people occurred when the industry was trimming thousands of executives with bankruptcies in other airlines. The market was flooded with high quality airline executives. The 'bid price' for those jobs was down 30 or 40 % of past salaries.

Someone needs to talk to the folks at the AMR HQ like the CEO of the last Fortune 100 company I used to work for told us:

"Nobody in this building actually makes any money for this company. What we are supposed to do is make it possible and easier for the people out on the front lines with the customers to bring in cash every day, every hour. If we don't keep our frontline workers job as easy as possible, without red tape and BS, if we don't make it easier for them to keep our customers happy - all to soon none of us will have jobs."

[Edited 2011-08-28 12:47:01]

User currently offlineEagleboy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8587 times:
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Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
One of the biggest issues with the pilots that I hear about concerns the management bonuses and incentives given to "keep quality people" back when the airline was near bankruptcy. The unions all gave concessions to cut salary and benefits, and many of the higher level executives got incentives and bonuses.
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):
In a way, I don't blame the employees' mistrust towards management. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me: this describes the attitude of the employees. They gave up a lot only to find that management (Carty) was using it to their advantage.

Doesn't just happen at AA. Last year EI staff all took an average 7% wage cut allow while also giving up T&C's.

This year the top 40 mgmt got bonuses even though they only took a salary freeze in 2010. The mgmt also messed up their staff vs aircraft numbers for this summer (not enough pilots and/or cabin crew, thus having to have hire-ins, 2-3 per week for the first 6 month of the year)


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1803 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8508 times:
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Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
Someone needs to talk to the folks at the AMR HQ like the CEO of the last Fortune 100 company I used to work for told us:

"Nobody in this building actually makes any money for this company. What we are supposed to do is make it possible and easier for the people out on the front lines with the customers to bring in cash every day, every hour. If we don't keep our frontline workers job as easy as possible, without red tape and BS, if we don't make it easier for them to keep our customers happy - all to soon none of us will have jobs."

Amen.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 40
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8198 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
Someone needs to talk to the folks at the AMR HQ like the CEO of the last Fortune 100 company I used to work for told us:

"Nobody in this building actually makes any money for this company. What we are supposed to do is make it possible and easier for the people out on the front lines with the customers to bring in cash every day, every hour. If we don't keep our frontline workers job as easy as possible, without red tape and BS, if we don't make it easier for them to keep our customers happy - all to soon none of us will have jobs."

Contracts such as the one labor is requiring of AA and other ones like scope clauses aren't exactly making the job of management--making life at the front lines easier--any easier, either. In fact, it stifles the company.

[Edited 2011-08-28 13:38:07]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3278 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8034 times:

Doesn't it make sense for the pilots to give up the 16 hour rule for the survival of the carrier? Allowing some potentially profitable ultra long haul routes possible? AA needs to be competative now instead of floundering while other carriers push ahead, and AA plays a futile game of catch up later on routes where others are well established? Better than being forced into chapter 11 where they could loose much more incl their jobs if AA went under. I think we can all agree AA can't keep going in the same direction as they currently are. Too bad, some of my best overseas trips have been on AA flying J when the 777 was just coming into the fleet. Still hated the 4 hour MD-80 flights I had to take to get to the DFW or ORD gateway, even though I was in F.


AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently onlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 712 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7970 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
Contracts such as the one labor is requiring of AA and scope clauses at many other airlines aren't exactly making the job of management--making life at the front lines easier--any easier, either. In fact, it stifles the company.

But what would you have then? Normally I'm a conservative when it comes to my beliefes especially when it comes to labor. However, given my vested interest in the industry I have a few questions for you. Say scope did not exisit? We'd have an outsource extravaganza where Mainline DL only flew a select few domestic and intl routes. What you'd have is a cluster f*** of outsourced airlines, with different managerial practices, different aircraft with different on board amenities/entertainment, different cost structures all trying to work under DL, who in turn have different ways of running their airline.

At what point would getting rid of a scope clause hurt the company because the products each consumer experience are so excessiey different and that it would lead them to choose a different airline?



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlinegenybustrvlr From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7700 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
But the labor we are taking about can make $250,000 - 300,000 USD yearly.

Do senior pilots actually make this much money? If so, the single thread of sympathy I had for them is gone. I'm sorry, but I can't see a pilot flying any aircraft being worth any more than 100 - 150K /year, and I think that is generous. It's a blue collar job which a wide range of people can be trained for. As a general business rule, a person is not worth more than $150K unless they have a specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program. No wonder AA is broke... They need to focus on getting these overpaid employees out the door, somehow.


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7682 times:

Quoting United1 (Reply 3):
flights over 16 (I think) hours require AA to reach a side agreement with their pilots union.

I know that the contract has a time limit, but what is the time based on? I assume it can't be flight time if it is 16hrs, because AA doesn't have a plane that can fly 16hr routes (the 77E doesn't have that range does it?). So is the time limit 16hrs? and if so what is it based on?

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 12):
"Nobody in this building actually makes any money for this company. What we are supposed to do is make it possible and easier for the people out on the front lines with the customers to bring in cash every day, every hour. If we don't keep our frontline workers job as easy as possible, without red tape and BS, if we don't make it easier for them to keep our customers happy - all to soon none of us will have jobs."

This should be a mandatory quote on the wall at HQ of every customer service business in world!


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7622 times:

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):

Do senior pilots actually make this much money?

I am not well versed in pilot pay, but I think this number is not a typical salary but one that can be achieved only by a very very senior captain who picks up a lot of extra flying. So possible, but far from typical pilot salary. One of the pilots on here can probably address it better.


User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7625 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
But the labor we are taking about can make $250,000 - 300,000 USD yearly.

Out of curiosity, how do you figure? My Uncle is almost a 30yr veteran pilot with AA, he has topped out the payscale on their highest paying aircraft and doesn't make near that amount. In fact, if a Captain at the top of the pay scale flew 1000 hours in a single year (HIGHLY unlikely and the maximum amount allowed by Federal Aviation Regulations)) he or she would make 205K/yr, and that is before taxes and so on.

Further, you are aware the vast majority of AA pilots make significantly less than this, yes? A small percentage of their pilots fall under this pay band.

[Edited 2011-08-28 14:32:19]


Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineexFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7557 times:

Quoting cx828 (Thread starter):
As both CX and AA would have a chance to start or codeshare HKG-DFW, but AA need to get the PERMISSION from their employees before they can start such long haul

I think "permission" is too much of an emotionally-loaded term, it'd be more correct to say that the current contract does not contain terms for these flights and the airline has to negotiate those terms before the flights can start, just as - to make up an example - if the current UAW-Chrysler contract doesn't cover fabrication of an entire car body out of carbon fibre, Chrysler would have to negotiate terms for carbon-fibre workers before they could start making such cars.

A contract can't cover every eventuality. And sometimes unions and companies negotiate language that gives one party protections they may be looking for that address concerns that, to an outsider, may look unnecessarily restrictive. WN's pilots have a "no codeshare" provision in their contract, because that's a big worry of theirs.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
The VP of XXX can move to another Fortune 500 company and get a fat salary and bonus contract

Not always, depends on the position - an airline VP of Finance or Accounting can move to another industry fairly easily because the "Finance" skill set isn't that industry-specific. A VP of Human Resources might have a bit harder of a time, but there are other industries with characteristics in common with airlines.

On the other hand, an airline VP of Safety or Operations* has a very specific skill set that restricts their ability to move to another company pretty severely - they're basically limited to moving to another airline, and there aren't that many airlines in the world.


User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7233 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7336 times:

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):
As a general business rule, a person is not worth more than $150K unless they have a specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program.

So you think it is fairley easy to build up the hours required to get hired at a regional then continue to build them to meet legacy requirements? Getting a single engine pilot license is cheap, unfortunately, before you can get hired at a regional you have to get twin certified, instruments, and a few others which cost time and money.
You may get your wish, if things go the way some want, most pax in the US would travel on regional carriers whose pilots are paid a living wage.


User currently offlineodysseus9001 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7271 times:

Quoting genybustrvlr (Reply 18):
Do senior pilots actually make this much money? If so, the single thread of sympathy I had for them is gone. I'm sorry, but I can't see a pilot flying any aircraft being worth any more than 100 - 150K /year, and I think that is generous. It's a blue collar job which a wide range of people can be trained for. As a general business rule, a person is not worth more than $150K unless they have a specialized skill set which is not widely available and cannot be easily developed through a recruiting and training program. No wonder AA is broke... They need to focus on getting these overpaid employees out the door, somehow.


The market will determine salaries, and both corporate and union bargaining power will be factors.

What kind of business do you manage? A dry cleaner?

John


25 Post contains images United1 : My bad it's 12 not 16 hours...I didn't get allot of sleep last night as I moved to NYC just in time for a hurricane and an "eathquake." As a Californ
26 jfk777 : Most pilots fly 80 hours monthly, times 12 months is 960 hours. 1000 is just half a month more. And we all pay taxes sorry if a person making 250K on
27 Post contains links ILUV767 : Based on the acutal pilot pay scales at AA listed on Airline Pilot Central http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/american.html a senior 7
28 Stabilator : An ignorant comment. As I have tried to point out, those salaries are obtained by select few at an airline. And many people who train to become pilot
29 ckfred : I think the pilots used to feel that Crandall was a regular SOB, but he completely understood how AMR worked, how the industry worked, and how to kee
30 thrufru : Sorry gang... I can't figure out how to quote selected text on an iPhone. But this is in response to Genybustrlvr: There are so many things wrong with
31 TVNWZ : Weren't the unions offered stock bonuses as part of their compensation, but turned them down. Or am I thinking of another airline?
32 dfwexecplat : I disagree....I worked for AA during the Crandall years. He was not well liked either. Any time the work groups are involved with re negotiating thei
33 Post contains images skyrat : Bunch of overpaid button pushers! Shoot I can fly a plane on my flight simulator, how hard can it be?
34 DashTrash : The company can negotiate anytime they're ready, Why don't you give my (somewhat former) line of work a try then since it's so easy. I'll admit that
35 LAXtoATL : Thanks for that.
36 genybustrvlr : Worse, an Investment Banking team. The problem here is that the free market is not allowed to work. Union bullying has distorted the free market beyo
37 Post contains images Jacobin777 : The reality is that the unions had an opportunity in stock options or "up front" money and they chose the latter and now are bitter that when senior
38 apodino : Wrong again. The free market has worked, unfortunately in the wrong way. Instead of regional pilots starting at a higher pay because of lack of deman
39 Maverick623 : You know, I can get over the anti-union stance (as I sympathize with some of your concerns), but government over-regulation? Yes, let's go back to th
40 bobnwa : I don't know what they are worth, but I am sure they would't fly safer if they made more money.
41 flyhossd : There are at least two signatures at the bottom of every contract. AA agreed to this contract as did the union, APA. Are you suggesting that the cont
42 rfields5421 : My advisors wanted me to put $350,000 into AMR stock at $2. Could have sold it for $20 easily and my 'retirement' would not require me to work at a m
43 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Adviser made a good call. I hope with that amount potentially invested he/she had a good "backup" (i.e.-"protective puts") as "insurance". Regardless
44 einsteinboricua : It was a poor decision NOW when we know how the situation is faring. At the time, it was a good one (perhaps a vital one regardless of whether it was
45 DCA-ROCguy : The eternal argument about scope clauses, it seems to me, comes down to two points that need to be addressed. First, 70-100 seat aircraft is a critica
46 Jacobin777 : Their decision (and subsequent pouting) has shown it was a poor decision then. Now if AA's goes into BK and its stock goes to zero then it will be a
47 apodino : Do we even know that the majors have even tried to negotiate pay rates for this flying? Or has the negotiations been more relaxation of scope in exch
48 TVNWZ : Has any airline union proposed a pay scale for the regional planes? If so, what was it? Anyone know? Guess? We do know the unions negotiated outsourc
49 DCA-ROCguy : Whether legacy carriers have actually tried to negotiate, I don't know. I'm just pointing out the economic interest--they have a clear economic reaso
50 apodino : Not so much anymore. DL owns a lot of their airplanes because EV and OH were wholly owned, and NW owned all the regionals they outsourced, but these
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