Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Air France To Discontinue CDG-MXP  
User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10203 times:

After losing Lufthansa (4xd) eff from 29OCT the Milan Malpensa-Paris CDG route is also going to lose another important player like Air France (4xd too) from the same date.
Instead AF looks to strengthen its position in the better located city-airport of Linate where they plan to grow up to 10 flights/per day (combined with AZ) from current 7xd.
Moreover AZ (codesharing with AF) also operates Linate-Orly 3 times per day bringing the total number of flights between Milan and Paris offered by AZ-AF group to 13xd each-way.

Anyway, between Malpensa and Roissy will keep on flying the lowcost carrier easyJet.

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10087 times:

All this is very logical.
AF is building a partnership with AZ and AZ is transferring its long haul flights to FCO ... so no really need for AF to serve MXP anymore, considering also that most O/D passengers prefer largely to land in LIN, rather than MXP.

It seems than MXP is slowly becoming a second YMX (Montreal-Mirabel) ...


User currently onlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7592 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10087 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 1):
It seems than MXP is slowly becoming a second YMX (Montreal-Mirabel)

However, AZ has a few international flights ex-MXP, right? JFK, GRU, NRT maybe?



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10039 times:

In addition, KLM between AMS and MXP used to fly 6xd during 2008-2009 and nowadays there are just 3 flights per day left on the route.

Rumors also abound about KLM completely leaving MXP in favour of LIN sometimes in the near future.

[Edited 2011-08-29 11:28:36]

User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10027 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 2):
JFK, GRU, NRT maybe?

These are the AZ's long-haul operations ex Malpensa : JFK (4-5xw), MIA (3xw), NRT (4xw).


User currently onlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7592 posts, RR: 42
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9967 times:

Quoting LIPZ (Reply 4):
These are the AZ's long-haul operations ex Malpensa : JFK (4-5xw), MIA (3xw), NRT (4xw).

Thank you. I wonder if they will last.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9912 times:

With all the know-how in Northern Italy, it's a shame to see how disastrous the 2 airport policy has been to Milan.

The comparison to Montreal is correct, at least the local airport administration took measures to consolidate at 1 airport, sad that Milan is not doing the same.


User currently offlineAlitaliaDC10 From Australia, joined Dec 2008, 240 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8851 times:

I do see some validity to the comparison with YMX however please keep in mind that MXP is a very important destination to the likes of CX, SQ, TG and 9W - it is a very high yield premium destination.These carriers can't operate into LIN. So MXP will still be around, albeit not used to its full potential.

CX has just increased to daily and in some reports has stated MXP is doing extremely well particularly in First and Business - not bad for a depressed world economy.

It's unfortunate AZ didn't make MXP work but the blame doesn't just rest with AZ - lots of politics, LIN all contributed.

MXP if it were to be properly managed could've been a major European hub.



Orbis non sufficit
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8785 times:

The LIN and MXP situation is a sad one to see, and only really serves to strengthen FCOs position as the primary hub for Italy.

Hardly an unexpected move though this one, but it is unexpected to see such a huge loss of 8 Daily flights within a short period on the MXP-CDG route.


User currently offlineedina From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 745 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8560 times:

BA have also downsized MXP......since this summer season there is no longer a nighstopping aircraft in MXP meaning that the first departure is now 1205. There are now 3 x roundtrip LHR-MXP-LHR services.

LIN has always been very high yielding for BA, hence the capacity increase - most services are now A321s; but MXP C class loads are often in single figures on fully loaded flights.



Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
User currently offlinerafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7794 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 1):
It seems than MXP is slowly becoming a second YMX (Montreal-Mirabel) ...

However, Dorval can accommodate long-haul, LIN can't.


User currently offlineIDISA From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6880 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 6):
With all the know-how in Northern Italy, it's a shame to see how disastrous the 2 airport policy has been to Milan.

Agree. it's such a sad news to see other airliners leaving MXP. The airport has an enormous potential but it's badly managed and still remains with many empty gates...

Quoting AlitaliaDC10 (Reply 7):
MXP if it were to be properly managed could've been a major European hub.

Absolutely true.

Regards
IDISA


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2687 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6718 times:

This move makes sense, with no more AZ long-haul, the traffic to MXP becomes purely O&D, and with high yields, and for that LIN is much better.

Quoting LIPZ (Reply 4):
These are the AZ's long-haul operations ex Malpensa : JFK (4-5xw), MIA (3xw), NRT (4xw).

Even if these routes are maintained, they likely weren't getting any feed from CDG because AF already serves them direct, so this has no effect on them.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 6):
The comparison to Montreal is correct,

The comparison with YMX is invalid. MXP will continue to exist and be needed, as LIN is a constrained airport that cannot handle long-haul. It simply will not exist as the great AZ hub airport many wished it to be. The only European airline that has been able to pull off a multi-hub strategy - LH - could not make MXP work either. Clearly MXP is not an easy case for a hub operation. Still, despite the AZ & LH pullback, it handled almost 19 million pax in 2010, up 8% from 2009 (LIN stayed stable at 8 million). Surely not a YMX...


User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4163 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 12):
The comparison with YMX is invalid. MXP will continue to exist and be needed, as LIN is a constrained airport that cannot handle long-haul. It simply will not exist as the great AZ hub airport many wished it to be. The only European airline that has been able to pull off a multi-hub strategy - LH - could not make MXP work either. Clearly MXP is not an easy case for a hub operation. Still, despite the AZ & LH pullback, it handled almost 19 million pax in 2010, up 8% from 2009 (LIN stayed stable at 8 million). Surely not a YMX...

The comparison to YMX is completely valid. The local OD markets from LIN within a 0-4 hour range is mostly concentrated in LIN, leaving MXP as a mostly Long-Haul and cargo airport.

Domestic and intra-Europe connectivity to International flights is limited with a 2 airport system. It is clear that pax wanting to go to Milan prefer LIN given the proximity to the city center. AZ's MXP hub failed because it's yield on MXP feeders were so low given that the local traffic shunned MXP and continued flying directly to LIN. This prompted AZ to move it's hub back to FCO.

Before 1995, YMX was a long-haul / leisure charter and cargo airport. YUL was a domestic and transborder airport. There are many parallels to be drawn between the MIL and YMQ stories.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25653 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4125 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 13):
The comparison to YMX is completely valid.

There's a big difference. YUL had the capacity to handle all of YMX's longhaul traffic. That's never been an option for LIN.

YMX should never have been built, while there was no option but to build MXP. Otherwise, the wealthiest market in Italy and largest business market would never have had any longhaul service. That wasn't the case for Montreal as YUL could easily handle longhaul flights.


User currently offlinecslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
YMX should never have been built,

In all respect, Transport Canada was projecting explosive growth at YMQ that never came as newer technology made airplanes with longer range, the Boeing 767 and Airbus 310 allowed more cities the ability to support cost effective intercontinental and the Canadian centre of power shifted westward to YTO. None of these factors seem applicable to MIL.



--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineglareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1307 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3833 times:

I always thought it was a stupid move of AZ to move away from MXP and concentrate on FCO. I think now that all the big European legacies are going to focus on LIN this will be more true then ever.
Already every time I fly LH or KL on international flights the C cabin is full with Italians. And I understand why. If they get better service and a better network with Lufthansa and KLM why not fly to their hubs instead of Rome. I am pretty sure this move costs Alitalia a lot of high-yield passengers.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 12):
Clearly MXP is not an easy case for a hub operation. Still, despite the AZ & LH pullback, it handled almost 19 million pax in 2010, up 8% from 2009 (LIN stayed stable at 8 million).

Do you know how many pax per year in Bergamo?



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3523 times:

Air France & Alitalia will operate a quasi-shuttle between CDG and LIN with 10 x Daily flights (6 operated by AF and 4 by AZ). 9 flights / day will be operated on week ends (Sa & Su).

User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2687 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3435 times:

Quoting glareskin (Reply 16):
Do you know how many pax per year in Bergamo?

7.6million in 2010, 7million in 2009.


User currently offlinemikey86 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3248 times:

Makes perfect sense to me! If there isnt much connecting traffic through MXP, then LIN is a better. Not counting any codeshare/partner agreements AF might have, LIN would be more beneficial due to its location in Milan. Having agreements would be just a place.


mikey86 - Greenslopes, Queensland
User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1934 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3097 times:

And didn't AB leave MXP earlier this year? I know I flew em from DUS-MXP in April, but now it's not showing up on their route network.

User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 13):
The comparison to YMX is completely valid. The local OD markets from LIN within a 0-4 hour range is mostly concentrated in LIN, leaving MXP as a mostly Long-Haul and cargo airport.

But MXP has a very significant short haul Easyjet operation, while YMX was before low cost airlines were anything other than niche operators



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlinecslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2893 times:

I think at MXP there is a opportunity for U2 to expand further with long haul intercontinental flying on wide bodies.

Does anyone have any details on the average gauge size of planes at LIN?
Is there a possibility for deployment of wide bodies between CDG and LIN?
What is the future for AX between ORY and LIN? Is it likely that these frequencies could be shifted to CDG - LIN for better yield?
Is there a long term future for AX to operate a limited number of long-haul flights at MXP? Or would it be better for all Skyteam flying to MXP be transferred to AX's partners?



--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2445 times:

AF will add 1 more flight between CDG and LIN by S12 (from 6 to 7 daily).
http://airlineroute.net/2011/09/02/af-cdglin-s12/

In addition AZ will keep serving both CDG 4xD and ORY 3xD out of Linate.
Total flights between Milan and Paris by AZ/AF will go up to 14xD


User currently offlineJL418 From Italy, joined Jun 2009, 493 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2295 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 5):
Thank you. I wonder if they will last.

I read some LFs on several forums some time ago and they were actually pretty good, especially now that they are using the A332 on some routes with its new, top-class interiors. Malpensa has a nice long-haul network especially for Asia and yields are said to be high: CX upgraded its 77W service to daily from 4xw this summer, Jet's daily to DEL has already reached BEP after months of being opened, the Gulf carriers are thriving and Air China too. The market's there, what we lack is a proper hub carrier and some decent political management.

Quoting glareskin (Reply 16):
I always thought it was a stupid move of AZ to move away from MXP and concentrate on FCO. I think now that all the big European legacies are going to focus on LIN this will be more true then ever.
Already every time I fly LH or KL on international flights the C cabin is full with Italians. And I understand why. If they get better service and a better network with Lufthansa and KLM why not fly to their hubs instead of Rome. I am pretty sure this move costs Alitalia a lot of high-yield passengers.

I guess it's also a question of habit and number of connection. AZ is improving steadily - and I'm no AZ fan nor employee.it's offering lie-flat beds in J class, something LH isn't, and economy seats on the A332 are very good. Catering is still nice and that was probably the only good thing of the old AZ. People flies on AZ from MXP on its 3 intercontinental services... I guess it's just a question of connections and frequencies. Moreover now AZ is part of the transatlantic JV with AF-KLM and Delta so I guess that 25% of the earnings are hers to enjoy as well, even if the Milanese industrial tycoon is flying out of Linate on AF.

Quoting cslusarc (Reply 22):
Does anyone have any details on the average gauge size of planes at LIN?
Is there a possibility for deployment of wide bodies between CDG and LIN?

I think that no airplanes bigger than A321's or 73W's are allowed. Linate is regulated by a decree that is limiting the slots available to each carrier but everyone is playing tricks with it. AZ has 5 or something phantom AOCs and she's selling frequencies to AF; BA might use Meridiana's ones, if they'd like to. Politicians do nothing because everyone thinks that Linate is the "true" airport of the city and the fail to understand the implications of such laissez-faire in terms of missed connections with the rest of the world, especially North America.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Air France To Upgrade CDG-CCS posted Tue Dec 28 2004 11:46:26 by FLYSSC
Air France To Fly CDG-DTW-CDG posted Wed Dec 15 2004 02:54:11 by Addi375
Air France To Add 2nd Cdg-pek posted Thu Jun 23 2005 00:48:17 by Squirrel83
Air France, Flights Between CDG & NRT Seem To Boom posted Fri Mar 4 2005 17:50:42 by Sabena332
Air France AF 084 CDG-SFO Diverting Now! (01DEC) posted Wed Dec 1 2010 10:03:40 by WindowSeat
KLM/Air France To Charge Obese Passengers posted Tue Jan 19 2010 23:16:46 by TheCommodore
Air France To Bid On CSA posted Thu Mar 5 2009 08:59:39 by LAXintl
Air France To Delay Tender For 100 Aircraft.. posted Fri Nov 21 2008 02:44:19 by Beaucaire
Air France To Canada posted Thu Nov 20 2008 12:46:45 by Thenoflyzone
Air France To Tokyo HANEDA, Scheduled! posted Fri Oct 24 2008 19:08:44 by ConcordeBoy