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Pilot Grounded For Being Too Safe?  
User currently offlineUTAH744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 202 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 19198 times:

As per link below the grounded Captain for ASA contends that his grounding was because he cost the company money by having safety concerns about landing in what he calls severe weather in MKE. They say he had a psychotic episode and used the fact that he had seen a psychologist years ago while he was going through a divorce. I have flown with pilots going through a divorce and in almost all cases they should not have been flying. Something like this on a pilot's record would keep him from being hired by a major airline, and send a chilling message to the rest of the pilot group.

I wonder if any other ASA guys can shed more light on this.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Lemond...elieved-prnews-3410696245.html?x=0


You are never too old to learn something stupid
75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18651 times:

I wonder what the next pilot who wants to divert due to weather will have running through his mind as he figures out whether the make the call or not.

Of course, it'll still be listed as pilot error on the accident report.  

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7298 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18619 times:
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I've heard of plenty of guys not wanting to drive a bus across either ocean because of mechanical issues only to have their company send them home, pay them for the trip, but have another pilot fly the jet. Need to watch that MX budget, right?

User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 18603 times:

I get the feeling there's more to it than the article suggests, but assuming the general jist of the article is correct, this really make my blood boil.

It's no secret that airlines, specially the regionals, put $$$ over safety, even if they may say so otherwise.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21637 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 18518 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 3):
I get the feeling there's more to it than the article suggests

Well, the real question is "how bad was the weather in MKE"?

But, let's say for the sake of argument that is was severe clear and calm winds, and he wanted to divert anyway. Would the company really have to resort to pulling up a psychological case from years past to get rid of him? I suspect not.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18366 times:

The article mentions that in the incident in question, there was a bad case of snow and ice at MKE. Being very familiar with MKE, I tend to believe the pilot here. MKE is one of the worst airports in the country (That are susceptible to regular winter weather) when it comes to snow removal, and they have had several incidents over the past years of planes off the runway in icy conditions.

I am not a medical expert, but I do believe that certain psychological problems can actually medically disqualify you, but someone can correct me if I am wrong.


User currently offlineflyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18283 times:

It is reasons like this that I would support a union for ASA.


"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1555 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 18283 times:

Even if there is not more to the article, the captain still did the right thing. Going on to future interviews, it's slightly easier explaining why you got fired (in this case wrongly so) then why you skidded off the runway in the middle of a blizzard!

I am going to agree with fly2HMO, there is most likely more to this then meets the eye, or is reported in this article!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18092 times:

If anything from this article is true, I cannot understand why all ASA pilots are not on strike until the responsible management is fired.

Management that puts pressure onto a pilot to take an action that from the information he has at the given moment he may consider as undafe should be fined for tried murder.


User currently offlineNBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 816 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 16218 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 8):
If anything from this article is true, I cannot understand why all ASA pilots are not on strike until the responsible management is fired.

Because if they went on strike, they would all be terminated and replaced and it would be perfectly legal for ASA to do so because they are non-union employees. Not a good plan when you are barely above the poverty line as it is.

If he as a case for wrongful termination (possibly under the whistle blower act), which is sounds like he does, he can take it up with the state employment commission and they will make a decision on weather or not he can be reinstated or compensated by ASA until he finds new employment.



"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7229 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 16094 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 3):
It's no secret that airlines, specially the regionals, put $$$ over safety,

Since the majority of regionals are flying and exist because of legacy carriers, their demands for low price flying is a contributing factor, in my book they are just as complicit, it's an industry problem in general not a regional problem.
Legacy carriers are free to cater to one segment of the market, if international flying is profitable, abandon their domestic networks, pax then have to find their own way around the US.


User currently offlineleothedog From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14544 times:

I would fly with this guy everyday of the week and twice on Sundays.


I've got things to see and people to do.
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 14221 times:

On the one hand, we have to keep in mind that this is a press release by the guy's lawyer.

On the other hand, if it's true that they used information from an employee assistance program in deciding whether to terminate him, that is a horrendous breach of trust, and basically makes employee assistance programs useless. If the allegations are true, then ASA is going to be liable on several levels.


User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 658 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13835 times:

Quoting leothedog (Reply 11):

What ever happened to "Command Authority". I thought that the buck stopped there.


User currently offlineBoxBoy From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 50 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13397 times:

"Pilot pushing" happens all the time at the regionals. Sure it is all about the money. The regionals are competing against one another for the business of the legacy. It is a race to the bottom of the barrel.

Pilots beware. DO NOT go see a shrink. Pilots medical records are not private. Your employer and the FAA may request a copy of them. If you say any of the key words, for example "depressed, depression, stressed, etc", you must report that on your medical application FOREVER. The first time you experience any of those feelings you must report it to the FAA, surrender your medical until your case is reviewed. You are out of work for a minimum of 6 months while the FAA gets an independent psychiatric review. Typically speaking you'll be out of work for 12 months.

If this pilot did not report his emotional state to the FAA, he is in trouble. Not only will he lose his job, but the FAA may go after his ticket. Fair--no way, but reality here. If I remember correctly, I believe a couple of AA pilots went to prison for falsifying their FAA medical application (about 20 years ago).

In case anyone from the FAA is reading, I feel great. I have never felt anything but motivated, rested, focused, and happy. I do not recall a single moment in time that I didn't feel on top of my game.


User currently offlineLufthansa411 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 692 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 13308 times:

Quoting xdlx (Reply 13):
What ever happened to "Command Authority". I thought that the buck stopped there.

In most cases it does, but just because the final decision rests with the pilot does not mean that the company is not watching or tracking what decisions those pilots make. If you have a pilot that seems to divert/not fly/nitpick at several times the company average they may have a meeting with the pilot to figure out why. There are those kinds of captains at every airline- and the bean counters are not their best friends.

Not saying that was a motivation in this case as we do not have the full story, but it could be a factor.



Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
User currently offlineeldanno From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 12673 times:

Quoting BoxBoy (Reply 14):
I feel great. I have never felt anything but motivated, rested, focused, and happy. I do not recall a single moment in time that I didn't feel on top of my game.

I'm picturing Eric Idle's character in European Vacation....


User currently offlinetp1040 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 12636 times:

Please note that the linked item is NOT a news story. A reporter did not write or investigate any "story."

It is a press release from the plaintiff's law firm.


User currently offlinefutureualpilot From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2602 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 12637 times:

Quoting flyorski (Reply 6):

It is reasons like this that I would support a union for ASA.
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 8):
I cannot understand why all ASA pilots are not on strike until the responsible management is fired.
Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 9):
Because if they went on strike, they would all be terminated and replaced and it would be perfectly legal for ASA to do so because they are non-union employees.

ASA pilots are unionized under ALPA. Pilots cannot just up and strike because of the Railway labor Act in this country. If we could, you would likely see many more strikes than there have been.

Depending on the details, good for the Captain. I hope it works out. Regionals are a joke when it comes to safety.



Life is better when you surf.
User currently offlineCO38 From Norway, joined May 2009, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 12487 times:

IMHO the company has no business second guessing the PICs operational decisions. As we all know, the pilots and PIC in particular are the final authority onboard an aircraft and also are the one that has to answer if anything goes wrong. Especially of theres an incident as a result of bad decision making or violation the Operation Manual or FARs.

But I am sure the company expects their pilots to be competent enough to handle the aircraft within the limits of the Operations Manual.
Nevertheless I think this sends a dangerous signal to other pilots (in ASA). Wether or not you have a job tomorrow as a result of your decision is the last thing you should worry about when you perform a go around or divert because of i.e weather.


User currently offlinesaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 11904 times:

Probably a lot more to this story than meets the eye.....

I am a captain at a similar company and have diverted a number of times due to weather. It surely cost the company money. Yet I have never been called to explain my actions and have felt no hostility because of these diversions and on one occasion I was praised by my manager for making proper decisions.

Unless anyone here knows what really happened it's all just speculation. There are likely a lot of things here we don't know about.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineNBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 816 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 11743 times:

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 18):
ASA pilots are unionized under ALPA. Pilots cannot just up and strike because of the Railway labor Act in this country. If we could, you would likely see many more strikes than there have been.

Ah sorry I was under the impression that ASA was non-union, since they are unionized then yes you are correct.



"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
User currently offlineCharlieNoble From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 11572 times:

Quoting BoxBoy (Reply 14):
Pilots beware. DO NOT go see a shrink. Pilots medical records are not private. Your employer and the FAA may request a copy of them. If you say any of the key words, for example "depressed, depression, stressed, etc", you must report that on your medical application FOREVER. The first time you experience any of those feelings you must report it to the FAA, surrender your medical until your case is reviewed. You are out of work for a minimum of 6 months while the FAA gets an independent psychiatric review. Typically speaking you'll be out of work for 12 months.

If this pilot did not report his emotional state to the FAA, he is in trouble. Not only will he lose his job, but the FAA may go after his ticket. Fair--no way, but reality here. If I remember correctly, I believe a couple of AA pilots went to prison for falsifying their FAA medical application (about 20 years ago).

In case anyone from the FAA is reading, I feel great. I have never felt anything but motivated, rested, focused, and happy. I do not recall a single moment in time that I didn't feel on top of my game.

Agree 100%.

If you are in any kind of competitive work environment the last thing you ever want to do is tell ANYONE that you are feeling anything other than on the top of your game. You may think you are reaching out for help but all you are doing is opening yourself up to get screwed. Which will make you feel even worse LOL.


User currently offlineplateman From United States of America, joined May 2007, 923 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 11311 times:

Very important .. this is NOT an article, but a press release from a law firm. Huge difference.


"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
User currently offlineKAUST From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 95 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 11136 times:

Quoting BoxBoy (Reply 14):
Pilots beware. DO NOT go see a shrink. Pilots medical records are not private. Your employer and the FAA may request a copy of them. If you say any of the key words, for example "depressed, depression, stressed, etc", you must report that on your medical application FOREVER. The first time you experience any of those feelings you must report it to the FAA, surrender your medical until your case is reviewed. You are out of work for a minimum of 6 months while the FAA gets an independent psychiatric review. Typically speaking you'll be out of work for 12 months.

If this pilot did not report his emotional state to the FAA, he is in trouble. Not only will he lose his job, but the FAA may go after his ticket. Fair--no way, but reality here. If I remember correctly, I believe a couple of AA pilots went to prison for falsifying their FAA medical application (about 20 years ago).

In case anyone from the FAA is reading, I feel great. I have never felt anything but motivated, rested, focused, and happy. I do not recall a single moment in time that I didn't feel on top of my game.

Agree 100%.


Disagree, somewhat. As a once "depressed, stressed" person, myself, I can say, it is not always about you, as a "motivated, rested, focused and happy" person. Seems to pretty much more or less demote us as people whenever someone compares us that way. We may not be prime for piloting, I suppose, no. But is there not other areas in which I myself would be "motivated, rested, focused, and happy", more than are yourself?


KAUST



"Houston, this is Apollo 8. We are now in Lunar orbit."
25 NW747-400 : I'm throwing the BS flag on this one. There is far more to this story than a press release from the pilot's lawyer.
26 CharlieNoble : I think you might have missed the point of this. In order to maintain flight status (or succeed in other highly competitive environments) people are
27 Stabilator : I dont think airline management could give a damn about what 91.3 says. It's about dollars (which is justified up to a certain point). However, if sa
28 cbphoto : Agree to a point! If your suicidal, then you need help, no matter how much it screws up your career! After all, if your dead, your career is pretty m
29 longhauler : I am going to play Devil's Advocate here. This gentleman was not "grounded for being too safe". He was fired for putting safety ahead of cost. Unfortu
30 Goldenshield : And that in and of itself is BS. Even at majors, things like this happen. Take a look at that captain that was suspending/fired/whatever for refusing
31 longhauler : Which Captain was that?
32 Goldenshield : I've been trying to search for the thread on it, but the search function sucks. Anyhow, it was a USAirways female captain, who refused an airplane th
33 flyorski : I remember reading that thread. Cannot find it right now either. Strangely, google seems to pull up a.net threads better than the terrible built in a
34 Mir : Which is complete BS. Millions of people see a psychologist for help coping with various things and it has no negative impact on their professional l
35 cbphoto : I dunno, ask the FAA! They apparently think/have issues with pilots seeking help. If you have an issue or an incident come up in your flying career,
36 flyhossd : Brilliantly stated. I can't help but wonder if there was a recent airline management seminar recommending challenging "safety-calls." There's this st
37 Goldenshield : Part 121 trumps part 91 in this instance. Both the dispatcher and pilot share joint authority of the flight, but the PIC is in charge of the aircraft
38 flyhossd : That's incorrect, Part 121 does not supercede Part 91. Rather it provides additional "requirements" such as a Dispatcher. Commercial pilots including
39 Goldenshield : You forgot the "of the aircraft" part. Yes, the PIC CAN be violated with 91.3, but they only because they are in charge OF THE AIRCRAFT. Part 91 does
40 flyhossd : Yes, Part 121 includes a Dispatcher (I noted as much - indeed Dispatching was my first airline job). However, the "final authority" rests with the "p
41 Goldenshield : Stop quoting it. I'm fully aware of 91.3. I'm also fully aware of that the PIC is in full command whether it's part 91, 135, or 121. It's not like I
42 longhauler : I am very curious to what you would think the distinction between commanding the aircraft vice commanding the flight might be? If airborne during the
43 aa757first : The FAA's draconian policy towards mental health really alarms me. The underlying philosophy seems to be if you're depressed to any extent, you must
44 Goldenshield : While you are insinuating that PIC would be the one telling the aircraft where to go, which is correct, since the dispatcher isn't there in the plane
45 longhauler : That is interesting, as in Canada, no one other than a Pilot or Flight Attendant is allowed in a cockpit jumpseat one the engines are started. This i
46 Post contains images Goldenshield : In the U.S., anyone riding jumpseat,even if sitting in a passenger seat, once accepted by the captain, they become a crew member and are subject to t
47 longhauler : Absolutely. However, the Dispatcher that worked the flight with the Captain, is not the one riding on the jumpseat. That was the only point I was mak
48 Post contains images Goldenshield : There have been times where I dispatched a flight, and then ended up in the jumpseat on it. Granted, I passed it down, but it's always fun to watch t
49 Post contains images Mir : Well, someone at the FAA needs to get their head out of the 1960s and realize that seeing a psychologist does not equate to mental instability. Consi
50 cbphoto : Absolutely, I agree 100%, but we all know how long it takes for the FAA to even consider a policy change, much less a change in culture!
51 Maverick623 : There's a whole lot more to the story than that. Suffice it to say, she gave the company the excuse they needed to go after her, and it wasn't for re
52 wn700driver : What was the rest of the story? Was the company just being jerks? Or was she involved with that Airways East "Safety Campaign" where pilots started t
53 rcair1 : Sorry- this is not a fair statement. Certainly there have been issues with safety at regionals, and perhaps they are less rigorous than mainlines, bu
54 futureualpilot : Yeah, flight crews, maintenance workers and maybe a handful of middle-management in the safety department. As far as regional carriers putting safety
55 jhooper : Airlines are in business to make money. They're only willing to be as "safe" as required to keep the FAA off their backs and avoid costly lawsuits. It
56 YYZatcboy : Sorry Longhauler, that is incorrect. Anyone with a valid RAIC who is employed by the carrier and is authorized to sit in the jumpseat in the ops manu
57 longhauler : Let me restate then ... at Air Canada, only Air Canada Pilots and Air Canada Flight Attendants are allowed on the jumpseat. Presently, that also incl
58 TheCol : I believe that is incorrect. As per part 724.15 of the CARS: Prior to acceptance by the pilot-in-command of the Operational Flight Plan (OFP), operat
59 longhauler : Like I said, and like you just said .. once the flight has commenced, the Captain is solely responsible and in command of the flight. "flight" being
60 YYZatcboy : Hi Longhauler, I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I simply cannot see that being the case, since as part of Dispatch training (annually and initi
61 Goldenshield : The following is a reply by fomer member OPNLguy, who is has been a dispatcher for several decades, and is still practicing. He is one of the influen
62 longhauler : Sorry for the delay, just got back from work. Because of this message thread, I did ask the Dispatcher working my flight yesterday YYZ-YVR-YYZ about
63 GentFromAlaska : The article uses the word "grounded" I and I would guess a lot of people affiliate grounded to mean temporary or a few flights to seek medical or trai
64 GoBoeing : Take a look at the Continental Express route map and you'll rule that suspicion out. The most junior captain at ExpressJet has been there for at leas
65 GoBoeing : [sigh] This again? So, when you get down to it -- which of the two with joint responsibility is the one to reach down and release the parking brake t
66 goblin211 : If he felt it was unsafe to land then it's his call. I think that the airline is not a legacy so they worry a lot more about money than the legacies d
67 flyhossd : Is there a such a regulation? Not in my copy of the F.A.R.s nor did I find one in a quick Google search (I checked four on line sources). If there is
68 YYZatcboy : Thanks for getting back to me. I have to say that I am surprised that Dispatchers don't do fam flights, I know they are pretty valuable training. I h
69 apodino : They sound even more paranoid about security up there than they are in the US. In the US, the FAR's still require us dispatchers to go out once a yea
70 YYZatcboy : Please note that this is not the policy in Canada, just at AC. I don't know of any other airline with a policy that restrictive. Cheers Joe
71 YYZatcboy : Actually Longhauler, I found the reference in the Commercial Air Service Standards... 725.124(21) Flight Dispatcher Training Specific Training 725.124
72 747400sp : This is disugsting, what are the airlines saying, their money is more important that your SAFTY, ASA YOU SOULD BE A SHAME OF YOUR OPERATIONS!
73 Post contains images longhauler : I am sure they all have. That is probably one hurdle Corporate Security can not overcome. Now ... whether they do yearly fam trips is a different sto
74 Post contains links and images Goldenshield : The following post is a condensed reply from OPNLguy. Again, as with my last post, I am just the proxy. ----------------------------------------------
75 Post contains images YYZatcboy : Yeah perhaps we should start a Dispatch training thread in Tech Ops. The requirement is yearly fam flights. Perhaps the confusion is in the fam flight
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