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TravelMole's List Of World's Safest Airlines  
User currently offlineHELFAN From Finland, joined Aug 2011, 51 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9674 times:

Hi!

This listing comes from TravelMole's website. What do you make of it?

http://www.travelmole.com/stories/1149153.php#

I wonder what the criteria for such a list was, but apparently it will mould public opinion and have certain influence on people's perceptions and travel behaviour. Does anyone know any background information of this listing?
Thanks

HELFAN

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5331 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 9601 times:

I'm very doubtful, just because in developed countries almost all airlines are safe enough that trying to pick the "safest" is a crapshoot. But I'm also pleased to see all six U.S. majors (treating CO and UA as two separate airlines) on the list. The U.S. has had a very good run lately, even with constant economic pressure and a sometimes-obtuse safety bureaucracy.

User currently onlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 749 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9173 times:

Quoting HELFAN (Thread starter):
I wonder what the criteria for such a list was

Whatever the criteria is, it certainly is flawed. AC missing in the top 10 while AF at #1?


User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9156 times:

Why no Emirates, Swiss, Cathay Pacific, Etihad etc? Why no airlines beside Europe and North America anyway (except JL):?

Why AF for god sake on #1. It is probably the only airline that has lost 3 aircraft in 10 years caused by fatal crashes.


User currently offlineflythere From Hong Kong, joined May 2010, 438 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 9143 times:

No Cathay Pacific, no Finnair, no Emirates, no ANA, and even no some Chinese carriers which casualty free for decades...... Are you sure this list is trustworthy..?!

[Edited 2011-09-01 11:28:13]

User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9140 times:

AF in the top 10 and QF not in it at all. I seem to recall AF loosing more aircraft then any Western airline in the past 10years.

User currently offlineflyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9037 times:

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 5):
QF not in it at all.

By most methods Qantas is not considered a safe airline due to the political pressure they can place on CASA and the influence QF has over CASA.



"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 9004 times:

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 5):
QF not in it at all

Do you know how many incidents QF have had the last couple of years?
A lot of airlines are not mentioned in the top 10 but I don't think that QF is a top 10 airline.


User currently offlinepylon101 From Russia, joined Feb 2008, 1442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8949 times:

This is a list which doesn't make any sense and it is not worth of discussing.

User currently offlineNutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 496 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8940 times:

I cant believe US Airways is on this list.....according to USAPA, they put profits ahead of safety and force them to fly unsafe aircraft. Somebody get a hold of the editor and let them know that there has been a mistake!

US Airways has made some grat safety moves, most notably, launching a Safety Management System that is setting the bar for civil avaiation safety. I think that US Airways should take out a full page add in the money section of the USA Today touting their safety record......I dont know where I got that idea.....just seems like a good one!   



American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8910 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 2):
AC missing in the top 10 while AF at #1?
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 3):
Why AF for god sake on #1

O dear. Read much? It says: Alphabetical order.

You can bet it's based on some sort of formula that includes passengers carried/ distance/ number of flights. US and European carriers would top that list. As EK grows over time, I'm sure it will be on there at some point.

It also states: The agency explained that to understand airline safety, one needed not only to look at accident figures, but also "technical, human, organisational and external" elements.

In other words: who knows? But the list is reasonable regardless. QF carries peanuts compared to all the other carriers.
I'm sure they would be included in the top 25 and who's to say that the top 25 carriers are far apart? They are probably pretty close.

[Edited 2011-09-01 12:25:47]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 8866 times:

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 8):
This is a list which doesn't make any sense and it is not worth of discussing.

I agree. This list is flawed and it is tough to only choose 10 airlines regarded as "safest".

I would like to see this list done by region (ie Top 5 Safest Airlines Per Region).



Flying refined.
User currently onlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 749 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 8836 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 10):
O dear. Read much? It says: Alphabetical order.

Then AC should be #1, no?

Any how, I have a hard time believing that AC is not in the top 10 no matter how you sort the world's top 10 list.


User currently offlinePhen From Ireland, joined Oct 2007, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 8809 times:

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 8):
This is a list which doesn't make any sense and it is not worth of discussing.

  

Quoting peanuts (Reply 10):
You can bet it's based on some sort of formula that includes passengers carried/ distance/ number of flights.

That could be true - but if it is why is FR not on that list? Has never had one single fatality and is one of the world's largest airlines by scheduled passengers carried. This list is flawed.

Edit: and AF in the top 10???  rotfl 

[Edited 2011-09-01 12:37:07]

User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 8789 times:

Quoting golfradio (Reply 12):
Then AC should be #1, no?

Lol. No. Alphabetical order *of the top 10*.

Quoting golfradio (Reply 12):
Any how, I have a hard time believing that AC is not in the top 10 no matter how you sort the world's top 10 list.

I would not doubt AC's safety record.
What's hurting them in this mysterious "formula" is its size. That's all.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineflymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7125 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days ago) and read 8662 times:

Quoting Phen (Reply 13):
Edit: and AF in the top 10???

Exactly what I was thinking. But it also says for the past year.

I guess the list has to do with passengers carried etc.. Thats why we see all the big US airlines, Euro airlines etc.. But these list mean nothing and for all we know some guy could have picked his favorite airlines. Who cares really.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineEagleboy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1799 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8464 times:
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"ATRA said it used available information on 15 criteria, such as the average age of the aircraft used or the homogeneity of the fleet.
The agency explained that to understand airline safety, one needed not only to look at accident figures, but also "technical, human, organisational and external" elements."

I fail to see how 'fleet homogeneity' is a factor for safety. It's not as if the engineers/pilots would not be trained on the relevant aircraft. And if fleet age is a factor shouldn't this be a negative for US airlines, it seems to me that US carriers have an older average fleet age than Euro carriers. (ie. MD-80/B757 vs A320/A321)

And unfortunately AF with their unfortunate recent history should score badly. I do not mean this as a slur on AF, but statistically AF447 and the A340 off runway at Toronto should lower their score.


User currently offlineCheco77 From Peru, joined Oct 2004, 1345 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8419 times:

AF first?? With so many incidents?  Wow!


Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
User currently offlinekalvado From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 8412 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 10):
You can bet it's based on some sort of formula that includes passengers carried/ distance/ number of flights.

they clearly say that it's based on

Quote:
criteria, such as the average age of the aircraft used or the homogeneity of the fleet.

One thing I'm missing, though: why DC-9 infested DL is on a list, but FR is not?


User currently offlineHELFAN From Finland, joined Aug 2011, 51 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8123 times:

Thanks for comments. I found this listing really odd too.

Does anyone have information of this ATRA Agency? Is that a credible organization or is it just some private organ who can produce any type of listing as it pleases to gain publicity?

I was also thinking that if fleet commonality and passenger volumes were factors, FR should definitely be on the list


User currently offlinevirginson937 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 69 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7524 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I think this list is sincerely flawed. May I also add that VS has a great safety run! And AF on that list!?  Wow!

Will


User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 726 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7525 times:

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 16):
I do not mean this as a slur on AF, but statistically AF447 and the A340 off runway at Toronto should lower their score.

Don't forget the Concorde in 2001. Also in 2008 they had to make several emergency landings with their B777s because of engine problems.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7381 times:

If you look into http://www.atra.aero/ATRA_HOLISTIC_SAFETY_RATING-cms4.htm

You get the complete list of criteria;
The 15 selected criteria are:

•Net financial result
•Total number of passengers
•Total number of employees
•Total number of cabin crew employees
•Total number of aircrafts
•Average fleet age in service
•Percentage of aircrafts on order
•Fleet homogeneity
•Number of aircrafts no longer in production
•Number of aircrafts considered at risk
•Total aircrafts-km flown
•In house maintenance capability
•Number of accidents during the last 10 years
•Dedicated flight academy pilot-training facilities
•Dedicated full flight simulators


These criteria favor big profitable airlines with lot of stuff and lot of in house facilities, from maintenance to own flight simulators.

I think many criteria are strange.
Example: Airline L has a big in house maintenenance, in house academy, own simulators. Airline B just gets all this from L, and pays for it. Then this list puts L far ahead of B, where there is no or at least a tiny difference...

On the other hand, this list is important, because it has gone through all media and is cited very often ( mainly by the marketing departments of the ten lucky ones ).


User currently offlineCysafan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7354 times:

Hey!! This is pure BS..
Where is Singapore Airlines , V Australia , Virgin Australia , Jetstar , Eva Air , Shanghai Airlines , Emirates , Etihad Airways , Qatar Airways , Jet Airways and many more.

SQ has to be one of the safest Airlines in the world.
What makes them so sure that AF is the safest airline in the world?
AF is one of the worst!
-Concorde crash in 2000 which starts the demise of supersonic aviation travel.
-Toronto A340 runway overshoot in bad weather
-F-GZCP and A321 collision on the ground
-AF447 tragedy believed to be caused by pilot error


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7115 times:

Quoting Cysafan (Reply 23):
Hey!! This is pure BS..
Where is Singapore Airlines , V Australia , Virgin Australia , Jetstar , Eva Air , Shanghai Airlines , Emirates , Etihad Airways , Qatar Airways , Jet Airways and many more.

If you look on the list of criteria, most of these are too small. I wonder about Emirates, though, since:

•Net financial result BIG
•Total number of passengers BIG
•Total number of employees BIG
•Total number of cabin crew employees BIG
•Total number of aircrafts BIG
•Average fleet age in service NEW
•Percentage of aircrafts on order MANY
•Fleet homogeneity RATHER
•Number of aircrafts no longer in production NONE
•Number of aircrafts considered at risk NONE
•Total aircrafts-km flown MANY
•In house maintenance capability DON'T KNOW
•Number of accidents during the last 10 years NONE AFAIK
•Dedicated flight academy pilot-training facilities NONE -------

•Dedicated full flight simulators


25 Post contains images FlySSC : It's in alphabetical order ... [Edited 2011-09-02 03:47:01][Edited 2011-09-02 03:57:24]
26 3rdGen : It's a bunch of rubbish, how does the number of simulators an airline have effect pilot training, I can be an airline with 2 planes and one simulator
27 ushermittwoch : AF has lost one aircraft in a fatal crash in the last 10 years. Another one in a non-fatal accident.
28 UALWN : American Airlines, also in the list, has also had one fatal crash (AA587) in the last 10 years, and has lost another aircraft in a non-fatal crash (A
29 stealthz : Seems a curious list, AF at the top of the list is something of a stretch, they write off aircraft more often than they wash them! Delta, they may be
30 VV701 : They may or may not be sure. As has been said several times already the reason why AF is at the top of the list is because, of the ten airlines in th
31 Post contains images cbrboy : Move on, nothing to see here...
32 Cassi : Apparently they meant "incidents" or "events". Otherwise they wouldn't have any reason to give low rating to QF. It is hard to like reports like this
33 SASMD82 : What about the Concorde in Summer (was it July?) 2001?
34 VV701 : Already addressed:
35 UALWN : It was in July 2000, hence over 10 years ago.
36 Sean-SAN- : For those asking why the middle east and Asia airlines are not on the list.... Just because they haven't crashed lately is no measure of safety. Pilot
37 worldliner : If AF is on a safety list, then its completely flawed and anyone could be on the list. AF has had more major losses (non terrorist) than any other maj
38 UALWN : Untrue. AA has had just the same (2). And AA is also on that list... "typical Asian-style nepotism"? Are you serious? Are you talking about the likes
39 HALFA : Hawaiian Airlines has been flying since 1929 and has been fatality free. Hawaiian was not on this list. Flawed list. HALFA
40 stealthz : So how does the report into AF447 which did not paint AF in a very favourable light not affect such a rating, similarly I think AA procedures were so
41 VV701 : I guess the answer here is timing. The report on AF447 is very recent. The ATRA assessment is very intricate. It required the application to all the
42 gr8circle : Are you sure...? That's quite a grand statement....quite a few airlines in the "developed countries" would have a hard time competing with airlines f
43 KFlyer : The list is totally flawed. If you ask me to name top ten, I won't since there are more than ten. But in no particular order, some that would make the
44 loalq : The moment I read "Air France" I knew this was some sort of a joke.
45 Post contains images lightsaber : Ignoring the already answered alphabetical order, with their major incidents and RJ clippings... I wouldn't put them on a list for a few years. Serio
46 spkyflyer : when all is said and done ...if the shit happens I would bet the house on qantas international pilots having the best shot at getting the plane on the
47 MCO2BRS : The ones that stick out to me the most are AC LA and IB - all of which have a similar fleet size and calibre as the airlines on the list, and of the t
48 VC10er : I'm far more interested in the 10 (or more) most dangerous airlines. I would feel very comfortable flying the top 10 and far more. Frankly, when SWISS
49 hugo : In the 60's and 70's Air France had so many losses it was called Air Chance. That said, their relatively high hull loss rate in recent years should no
50 UALWN : OK, I'll say it again: the evaluators took into account accidents in the last 10 years, in which AF has had two, one fatal, one not, exactly the same
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