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Portugal Interested In Selling TAP To LH  
User currently offlineInsideMan From Vatican City, joined Aug 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 10894 times:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...portugal-tap-idUSL5E7K206N20110902

as part of the ongoing privatizsations in Portugal, Pedro Passos Coelho sort of offers TAP to LH

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineushermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2969 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 10870 times:

Germany is most certainly getting nice profits out of its investment in the EU...


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 10725 times:

They're not stupid. They know that if IAG buys TP, that will be not just the end of TP but the end of a new airport because LIS will become just a spoke out of the MAD hub, and LCCs won't pay for a new airport.

User currently offlineInsideMan From Vatican City, joined Aug 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 10674 times:

I could see the benefits for LH.
Sell BMI, use TAP to extend operations to Brasil and Afrika.
If the price is right.....


User currently offlineJL418 From Italy, joined Jun 2009, 493 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 3 weeks ago) and read 10631 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 2):

They're not stupid. They know that if IAG buys TP, that will be not just the end of TP but the end of a new airport because LIS will become just a spoke out of the MAD hub, and LCCs won't pay for a new airport.

Well the same can be said of LH, I think, but I'm pretty confident it won't happen in both cases. TAP is an interesting airline because of its market share in the Brazilian and African markets, not because it's - with all due respect to Portugal - an enormous market from which to vacuum premium passengers. I guess that both IAG and LH will base a sort of hub in Lisbon, focused on Africa and LatAm, much like LH did with Brussels Airlines for Sub-Saharian Africa.

In my opinion IAG should be running for it, I mean for TAP. IB has a great market share of Latin America-bound intercontinental flight but I don't feel her too strong in Brazil which, instead, is going to be an important world player in some years, at least if Petrobras is to be believed.

About Lufthansa... I don't know whether they'll be ready to embark themselves in another acquisition. Austrian isn't back yet from the red, BMI is still in the shambles and last quarter results weren't as good as they hoped, if I remember well. Plus, let us not forget the LHI fiasco and the need of covering Berlin Brandeburg. And.. wouldn't it a bit too much for EU Commission's DG for Competition?


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10398 times:

Quoting JL418 (Reply 4):
I guess that both IAG and LH will base a sort of hub in Lisbon, focused on Africa and LatAm, much like LH did with Brussels Airlines for Sub-Saharian Africa.

That's where I disagree. I see absolutely no reason for IAG to maintain TP and it's hub at LIS. MAD is way too close and it's nowhere near capacity, so LIS and TP's network is somewhat redundant next to IB. LH however would not be so quick to dismiss LIS because of it's privileged location for LH. Not only does TP have the S.American presence that LH lacks, but LIS is on the Southeastern-most coast of Europe which gives it tremendous possibilities for air/sea/land/rail cargo integration. LIS is the first major airport in Europe for flights from anywhere in Latin America and even the Southern US. Portugal's air traffic is uncongested and weather delays are virtually unheard of. LIS would be much cheaper as a hub than any of the hubs on the LH network due to the lower cost of living in Portugal. LIS is in a great location to connect the 2 fastest growing economies of the next century Latin America and China, with TP already strongly established on one end of that equation. To put it mildly, LIS would be in a dream location for LH Cargo. And last but not least, the new LIS airport is likely to be the last brand new hub built in Europe in the next 50 years (Except maybe a new airport in Instambul). Imagine the possibilities from having input on designing and setting up a brand new hub airport in Europe. The last time LH did that we were presented with MUC, in my opinion one of the world's best and most efficient hubs. A new LIS hub with LH at the helm could be even better. Did I mention that the new LIS airport is only 15mi from the shipping port of Lisbon and that the main freight rail line and highway between Lisbon and Madrid, and the rest of Europe passes by this airport's future location?


User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10222 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 5):
. To put it mildly, LIS would be in a dream location for LH Cargo. And last but not least, the new LIS airport is likely to be the last brand new hub built in Europe in the next 50 years (Except maybe a new airport in Instambul). Imagine the possibilities from having input on designing and setting up a brand new hub airport in Europe

Portugal can only stand to win by having Germans design and build their new airport.


User currently offlineJL418 From Italy, joined Jun 2009, 493 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10014 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 5):
That's where I disagree. I see absolutely no reason for IAG to maintain TP and it's hub at LIS. MAD is way too close and it's nowhere near capacity, so LIS and TP's network is somewhat redundant next to IB. LH however would not be so quick to dismiss LIS because of it's privileged location for LH. Not only does TP have the S.American presence that LH lacks, but LIS is on the Southeastern-most coast of Europe which gives it tremendous possibilities for air/sea/land/rail cargo integration. LIS is the first major airport in Europe for flights from anywhere in Latin America and even the Southern US. Portugal's air traffic is uncongested and weather delays are virtually unheard of. LIS would be much cheaper as a hub than any of the hubs on the LH network due to the lower cost of living in Portugal

All you wrote has no fault, (apart probably for rail connectivity, but that's another issue) which leads me to think: "Why on Earth wouldn't IAG benefit from it as well?". I see that IB, in MAD, has the spaces to cope with some new long-haul planes taken from TP but why would anyone do that? TAP is a well-known brand in Brazil and Africa, why wasting such an intangible yet valuable resource for the sake of... well, a hardly useful optimization?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 5):
Imagine the possibilities from having input on designing and setting up a brand new hub airport in Europe. The last time LH did that we were presented with MUC, in my opinion one of the world's best and most efficient hubs. A new LIS hub with LH at the helm could be even better. Did I mention that the new LIS airport is only 15mi from the shipping port of Lisbon and that the main freight rail line and highway between Lisbon and Madrid, and the rest of Europe passes by this airport's future location?

It is, without a shadow of a doubt, an intriguing perspective. But: can LH do it? Corporate history is there to show us that you can only stretch a company up to a certain point and it's also telling us that most M&A destroy value rather than creating more. LH has expanded a lot in these last years, both by buying and integrating. There's no Central European carrier, Malév and CSA excluded, which is not linked or controlled by LH. And something is telling me that not every bun had its hole for LH, let us look at Austrian for example. I don't know whether LH itself can afford this new venture...

At the end of the day, my point is: it's going to be an interesting game, this one. I believe that everyone can play its card and have a fair chance of winning the prize, TAP. Even, who knows, AF-KLM. They're strong in Asia, in Africa and North America: South is what seems missing.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9860 times:

Quoting JL418 (Reply 7):
All you wrote has no fault, (apart probably for rail connectivity, but that's another issue) which leads me to think: "Why on Earth wouldn't IAG benefit from it as well?". I see that IB, in MAD, has the spaces to cope with some new long-haul planes taken from TP but why would anyone do that? TAP is a well-known brand in Brazil and Africa, why wasting such an intangible yet valuable resource for the sake of... well, a hardly useful optimization?

In my opinion, MAD has essentially the same characteristics as LIS without the need to invest in a new airport, and IB is just as well known and established in Brazil as TP is, and they are expanding not only to Brazil but to Africa as well. That's why I strongly believe that IAG buying TP would be the end of TP and LIS would be relegated to a spoke.
I give zero chance of AF-KLM getting in. Both already cover Africa and Latin America quite well which are the 2 strong markets of TP.
Can LH do it? That would be quite interesting. When you look at their business model it looks an awful lot like Ryanair creating bases all over Europe, doesn't it? You could ask, why would they need these many bases? The difference is LH keeps the planes from each base in a different livery   They are in uncharted territory, no doubt.


User currently offlineMCOGVADCA From China, joined Oct 2006, 446 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9185 times:

Quoting InsideMan (Thread starter):
as part of the ongoing privatizsations in Portugal, Pedro Passos Coelho sort of offers TAP to LH

Very interesting. I also heard a rumor (so please take it with a grain of salt!) that TAM would acquire both TAP and TAAG and would merge to form a grand Lusophone Atlantic carrier. Considering the importance of TAM and TAP to one another's networks, I didn't think it was that far-fetched....which is why I was quite surprised when TAM ended up being acquired and not an acquirer. If LATAM falls through for regulatory reasons (although this seems rather unlikely at this point), would there be ownership restrictions on a potential TAM/TAP merger, with TAM as the acquirer?



12 months:pvg hkg bkk doh mxp nce zrh iah lhr gva iad clt lax nrt sin mnl ceb del jai gay vns szx zuh mfm icn can
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9149 times:
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Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 9):
would there be ownership restrictions on a potential TAM/TAP merger, with TAM as the acquirer?

I believe that there would be restrictions on the acquisition of TP by any non-EU airline.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8852 times:

I think that would be a perfect combination.

Lufthansa has to fill the potential gap of TAM and TAP needs a strong partner which has no intentions to scale down TAP because of direct competition, as Iberia would do.

Probably i am wrong with my view about LH and BMI and LH will sell BMI in favour of buying TAP?

As a side-note, TAP has one of the greatest liveries in my eyes!


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 833 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7816 times:

Quoting JL418 (Reply 4):
About Lufthansa... I don't know whether they'll be ready to embark themselves in another acquisition. Austrian isn't back yet from the red, BMI is still in the shambles and last quarter results weren't as good as they hoped, if I remember well. Plus, let us not forget the LHI fiasco and the need of covering Berlin Brandeburg. And.. wouldn't it a bit too much for EU Commission's DG for Competition?

About Lufthansa:
They are doing everything they can to get OS in the blacks again, and quite frankly it isn't very surprising that this takes a long time, looking at the state that OS was in before the takeover. Yet the red numbers are getting smaller every year, and a takeover of this scale isn't meant to make a profit immediately. It is a long-term investment, and I strongly think that the direction OS is going now is the right one. I would expect them to turn black no later than FY2013.
BMI is a different matter and there was a thread about it just a few days ago. In short: LH is trying to get a 'partner' which is willing to shoulder the ongoing mess at BMI. Some interpret as turning BMI into a joint-venture with VS or whoever, others say LH are trying to get rid of BMI altogether. It's always a shame to see a formerly well-run carrier sink so rapidly, but we can, without a doubt, say that LH tried its best in making this airline work again. Well, some things are not meant to be, and the strength of LH is to know when the time is right to drop a venture.
The "LHI fiasco" is based yet on another kind of strategic move by the LH board. As easy as that: Drop LHI in favour of EN! I wouldn't call it a fiasco at all, it's strenghtening one daughter-company in order for both daughter-companies working in the same market not to kill each other. Besides: LHI had a great product and left a positive impression on the Milano-bound pax which formerly flew AZ. You could almost call it a very expensive advertising campaign!
And finally, BER. There is not really anything to say about it. LH has more than once stated that BER will be nothing more than a "focus city". So is HAM, no stationed a/c like a hub, but more flights than a simple airport. This is the BER-strategy, which in time might change, but so far it's the proper move. Unless you want to station premium aircraft in a low-cost city...


Back to the topic at hand:
I truely see LH wanting to get a big stake in TAP. I can also imagine IAG wanting to have a piece of the cake. But if it comes face-to-face, I believe TAP (or for that matter the Portugese government) will opt in favour of LH, regardless whether their offer may be less attractive. As has been mentioned before, MAD is not at its maximum utilization yet, and a move by IB would certainly have exactly that in mind; optimizing traffic flow through MAD. If the means of getting there include sucking traffic out of LIS, then this is what it's going to look like. TAP not expanding? Likely.
On the other hand LH: What is their interest in TAP? Well, not really any if you look at their continental network. But South-America is a hot cake, and it wants to be eaten! LH presence in S-A is quite limited, they need TAP in order for them to increase their (=LH Empire) strategic postition there. Which is exactly the opposite of what IAG would likely do.
Concerning TAP presence in Africa: Under IAG there could probably be an increase in traffic flow out of LIS, since both BA and IB have not the biggest network to the south. Under LH the scenario is the other way around: SN is meant to cover the African continent, so TAP's focus will further shift to S-A. Maybe that's a way of increasing traffic through LIS as well... ?



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlinekelual From Spain, joined Jul 2008, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 7713 times:

I see this more as a hope than a reality. IAG (IB) it's been interested in TAP since 2001. So TAP will be IAGs new acquisition.

User currently offlineAmsterdam From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 7259 times:

Lufthansa
Swiss
Austrian
SAS
TAP Portugal
Brussels Airlines
BMI (/Virgin Atlantic)


This could be the group in 1, 2 years time.

+
100% Germanswings
100% Blue1
100% Wideroe
100% Air Dolomiti
100% Portugalia
49% Eurowings
20% Air Macau
19% JetBlue
22,5% Ukraine International
50% SunAir
25% Jade Cargo
13% Luxair


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7201 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 12):
Concerning TAP presence in Africa: Under IAG there could probably be an increase in traffic flow out of LIS, since both BA and IB have not the biggest network to the south. Under LH the scenario is the other way around: SN is meant to cover the African continent, so TAP's focus will further shift to S-A. Maybe that's a way of increasing traffic through LIS as well... ?

SN and TP are not entirely redundant because TP has a lot of O&D from Portugal to Africa. Making all those passengers travel up to BRU to connect is not really an efficient way to deal with it. If LH were to take on TP I could see TP playing an even bigger role in Africa due to the physical location of LIS. Even in the best of scenarios, SN wouldn't be able to absorb all of TP's passengers. No one in Europe can offer double daily A340/A330 service to LAD for example. Despite the detour, some people would be surprised at how many passengers TP connects between Brazil and Angola. SN can't do that either.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 12):
I see this more as a hope than a reality. IAG (IB) it's been interested in TAP since 2001. So TAP will be IAGs new acquisition.

I also see this as a hope move, but unlike you I see TP not being sold to any major carrier at all. The government already stated that a precondition to sell TP is to maintain it's operations and hub in LIS and IAG will not agree to it. There is very strong opposition in Portugal, from the government and the business community to allow TP to fall into IB's hands. If IAg is the only option I suspect you will see a group of private investors come forward as my option b) below. In my opinion TP has missed the privatization boat. A couple of years ago they were ripe for it and the government blew it. I strongly believe that LH buying SN was plan B, and that their plan A was for TP.

In my opinion I see one of these 2 scenarios developing:
1) TP is not sold at all. It will limp around for a few years then disapear. Someone may pick up the scraps.
2) TP will be sold off to different private investors with the government maintaining a controling majority in the airline.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7078 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

I see a big Latam (the merger of Lan+Tam) component driving the decision.

IAG have a good coverage of Latin America with no doubt, but as said, with few exceptions, TP network do not add so much to them. In the other hand, LH does not have so strong coverage of Latin America but all they will got are secondary markets in Brazil.
The big difference in my view comes when we remove LA or JJ from their networks (and more to LH) and that's why i believe for LH, TP is more strategic because also puts a hub near its competitor MAD operation, and gain muscle on a weak area.
Of course, with that, IAG may be looking to move into protect their market.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6862 times:

When talking about this topic, everybody assumes that IAG would for sure dehub LIS. It's like assuming that AF would dehub AMS, LH would walk away from BRU, ZRH or VIE, etc.

TP's and IB's network overlaps the same than TP's and AF's and TP's and LH's, with the exception of the 3w flights to FOR and REC. Outside Brazil, TP only flies to CCS, where IB, AF and LH already fly, so the overlap between IB and TP in Latin America outside Brazil is almost zero. In Brasil, both fly to GIG and GRU, it's true, but AF and LH also do it. It's true that MAD and LIS are close, and that when the high speed rail is built, it will be even closer (although it is suspended on the Portuguese side right now), however, as TP's O&D is higher from Brazil, IAG could decide to use MAD to Latin America outside Brazil, and LIS for the rest.

The merger betwen LA and JJ is also an important factor here, because if TP was in OW, it would be another reason for LATAM to stay in the alliance.

And finally, here everybody talks about IB, but IAG is controlled by BA, and given the links between Portugal and the UK, I think that the Portuguese Government shouldn't be so worried about it.

IAG TATL network with TAP:



User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6514 times:

Quoting realsim (Reply 17):
When talking about this topic, everybody assumes that IAG would for sure dehub LIS. It's like assuming that AF would dehub AMS, LH would walk away from BRU, ZRH or VIE, etc.

Apples and Oranges. Comparatively speaking LIS and Portugal are a poor O&D market. AMS/ZRH, and BRU/VIE to a lesses extent have much wealthier and larger O&D markets of their own, and AMS and ZRH are sizable hubs on their own right while LIS is a fairly small one. MAD could easily absorb all of TP's operations, while CDG and FRA/MUC could not absorb KL's and LX's operations.


User currently offlineJL418 From Italy, joined Jun 2009, 493 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6296 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 8):
Can LH do it? That would be quite interesting. When you look at their business model it looks an awful lot like Ryanair creating bases all over Europe, doesn't it? You could ask, why would they need these many bases? The difference is LH keeps the planes from each base in a different livery   They are in uncharted territory, no doubt.

Indeed, that's what I was thinking about. From one hand it's great to see that they are expanding a lot and spreading their culture of high quality service but, from the other hand, I'm beginning to think that they're stretching a little bit too far.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 12):
The "LHI fiasco" is based yet on another kind of strategic move by the LH board. As easy as that: Drop LHI in favour of EN! I wouldn't call it a fiasco at all, it's strenghtening one daughter-company in order for both daughter-companies working in the same market not to kill each other. Besides: LHI had a great product and left a positive impression on the Milano-bound pax which formerly flew AZ. You could almost call it a very expensive advertising campaign!

I know I'm massively off-topic on such a thread so I won't go on further, but I tend to disagree.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 12):
And finally, BER. There is not really anything to say about it. LH has more than once stated that BER will be nothing more than a "focus city". So is HAM, no stationed a/c like a hub, but more flights than a simple airport. This is the BER-strategy, which in time might change, but so far it's the proper move. Unless you want to station premium aircraft in a low-cost city...

My point was: LH is busy on many "fronts" now and there's a limit to the managing skills of a company. History tells that M&A very often distroy value rather than creating it and pose management and control under strain. You can keep on expanding up to a certain point when a conglomerate's sheer dimensions become huge and senior management cannot run every part of the business properly.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 6169 times:

I'm not sure that airbazar gets the demographics of TAP's routes to Brazil and Africa. These markets are O+D exclusively and the financial viability is all about Brazil's rapid economic growth and Angola's oil wealth, especially as large numbers of Portuguese people are now moving to the two countries for very highly paid work.

If someone tried to hub that traffic via Madrid, some other airline would introduce direct services and clean up.


User currently offlineTeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5999 times:

While definitely the least vocal about their possible intentions, I am surprised AF is not getting talked about more as a possible partner from TP. In an article I read several months back, it sounded like all three conglomerates (IAG, LH, AF) were interested in this "once in a lifetime" opportunity.

While unlikely because it seems that LH is impervious to any EU competition commission concerns, if LH was blocked and the Portuguese did not want to sell to IAG due to drawdown fears, AF could be a good partner. They probably have the least overlap, and their hubs are certainly far enough away that you would see no drawdown at LIS. They would also bring another carrier into the Skyteam fold, which would be great for the alliance that is by far the weakest in South America.



Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8657 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5915 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 20):
I'm not sure that airbazar gets the demographics of TAP's routes to Brazil and Africa. These markets are O+D exclusively and the financial viability is all about Brazil's rapid economic growth and Angola's oil wealth, especially as large numbers of Portuguese people are now moving to the two countries for very highly paid work.

If someone tried to hub that traffic via Madrid, some other airline would introduce direct services and clean up.

I'm not sure what you're saying. What other airline would introduce service? Portugal is hardly the place to start a new full service carrier. Yes, if IAG were to buy TP and move their ops to MAD they would probably still keep a few flights between Brazil and LIS but it would be a far cry from what TP has today. They would probably run a few W patterns: MAD-GRU-LIS-GRU-MAD.

TP's routes to Brazil are not exclusively O&D by any means. TP connects a LOT of passengers between Italy/France/Germany/Spain and Brazil. The flights to the NE carry as much as 40% connecting passengers. The fact that there are hadly any charter ops between Portugal and Brazil should tell you something about the O&D market. Angola is more O&D heavy but it also has a good share of connecting passengers by virtue of being the only European carrier with daily flights, sometimes double daily.


User currently offlinebill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8466 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5825 times:

The article to me sounds like an attempt to extract a formal bid from IAG or that talks with IAG have broken down and now the Portuguese need another suitor and soon to meet their bailout conditions.

User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1785 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5614 times:

I see TP as most interesting an acquisition for LH than for anyone, and all things equal they are the best fit for Portuguese interests. TP bleeds money badly, and LH has significantly more experience than IAG or LATAM in purchasing and then turning around European legacies back to competitive and profitable levels. And on value-added LH would not only capitalize on and provide strong feed to the large Brazilian network, but LIS is a well-located airport which with a new terminal could take some share from MAD as a feeder hub to Latin America.

25 AIR MALTA : Portugal should not care about whom its sells TAP. It should try to get the highest bid be it from AF/KL or IAG. May be it is the proof of the fact th
26 Post contains images airbazar : Sort of true, sort of not. The TAP group loses a lot of money from businesses not associated with the TP (the airline). The airline itself is relativ
27 MillwallSean : Selling TP is a good idea to get some funds for Portugal. Its debt is way to large. Portugal however is quite different from Spain. By history it used
28 airbazar : TP's sale will come at ZERO cost to the government so therefore it will solve nothing to pay back the country's debt. If TP indeed gets sold, either
29 SXDFC : Although this is probably the LEAST of the worries right now, with a new buyer of TP, how would this effect their fleet? Could we see some Boeing's re
30 MillwallSean : Since TP has chosen the A350 for longhaul already I don't see another longhaul plan in their fleet. the narrowbody fleet isnt old by any means so i do
31 Post contains links Bennett123 : http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/PGA%20Portugalia%20Airlines.htm The Fokker 100 are over 20 years, so replacement will soon be an issue. Unless some
32 Post contains links LHRFlyer : I not sure AF-KLM is a strong contender to buy TAP. Looking at the net debt levels for the three European majors: AF-KLM: 6 billion euros IAG: 480 mil
33 Semaex : Quoting function may be erroneous again, please be aware that the one you quoted was not actually me. By all means, I know what you are talking about
34 Burkhard : Whwn it comes to competition concerns. In case of LH, it is competition for traffic between Germany and Portugal. In case of IAG, it is competition fo
35 airbazar : The way I see it neither are relevant. European "domestic" traffic is for the birds. No legacy carrier will make money on p2p intra-Europe routes. It
36 realsim : In Spain, the only routes where IB and TP overlap are MAD-LIS/OPO, and LIS-BCN if you count VY. However, in all of the routes there's LCC competition
37 incitatus : Your argument does not hold water against the strategies of AF/KL and LH+all. Now you are splitting hairs hoping to keep it together. We are yet to s
38 kiwiandrew : While I don't think that the OA/A3 merger should necessarily have been blocked, I also don't think that you are comparing like with like. The OA/A3 m
39 MillwallSean : Please read through the EU competition rules. They vetoed the one in Greece because it took control over 85% of the domestic market. That is not good
40 incitatus : Exactly, the watchdog is biased. The Greek domestic market is as relevant as the Californian or the Intra-Florida domestic market. The EU is a single
41 commavia : I don't necessarily disagree with many of your points. It is true that, strategically speaking (broader than just the airline industry), Portugal is,
42 Post contains images airbazar : I think you quoted the wrong post I'm not sure how my argument of the pros and cons of dehubing LIS has anything to do with EU anti-competition rulin
43 Semaex : Out of curiosity; how well do these markets go? Is it a viable new business model for TAP?
44 airbazar : Other than Moscow, all of these are new this year so too soon to tell. But Moscow did well enough that TP wanted to increase it from 5x to 9x weekly
45 LatinThug : With IB pulling out of REC and FOR, is this a sign that a deal has been made by IAG to buy TP ????
46 Speedbird741 : That thought keeps crossing my mind. Perhaps it's not that a deal has been made, but that IAG is preparing to be in a position that pleases competiti
47 incitatus : And there (further) goes down the drain airbazar's idea that all TP flying can be esily shifted to MAD if it is absorbed into IB/BA.
48 airbazar : That's not exactly what I said. I said hub operations, meaning all connecting traffic and thus eliminating a huge amount of TP's frequencies to Brazi
49 incitatus : I agree that IB's fleet lacks a route-entry aircraft. Besides too expensive, at close to 300 seats in the new config the A340s are too large. But I w
50 airbazar : It's a low frequency, triangle route. It's the worst possible scenario, especially for higher yield and/or business passengers. For connecting pax to
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