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Is QF Giving Up On PER?  
User currently offlineweebie From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 202 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 12 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9685 times:

Singapore will increase it's PER service to 24 weekly later on this year. With QF using two A330 services and a Jetstar service is it fair to say that QF is giving up on Perth? Malaysian will be doing something similar to Singapore soon and China Southern enter the market in November with Ethiad not far behind them.

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 12 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9593 times:

One could ask, is QF giving up on Australia? Overall, SYD is their main focus in this country, but their sights are broader than these shores.

As for PER, it's still a relatively small, isolated market, but a wealthy one. I don't think QF will look to expand it too much unfortunately, and there will be mote opportunities for foreign carriers to increase or start service. That will be the case in many other Australian markets in the coming years also.

Btw, Malaysian services KL, not Singapore  


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 12 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9590 times:

No. They are maintaining a higher market share out of PER than on any other market that I am aware of.

User currently offlineAusA380 From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 12 months 3 days ago) and read 9553 times:

Look at how many QF international flight ex ADL?

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4907 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 12 months 3 days ago) and read 9505 times:

Quoting AusA380 (Reply 3):
Look at how many QF international flight ex ADL?

Have a look at the bigger picture, check out how many european flights they will have next year... 3 daily, 1 FRA and 2 LHR... QF certainly giving up alright...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (2 years 12 months 3 days ago) and read 9472 times:

Strange really to think Los Angeles will get more flights than London does.

User currently offlinesydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3020 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9290 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 5):
Strange really to think Los Angeles will get more flights than London does.

It merely highlights the dynamics of the two markets and where in 1 QF has a powerful position vs the other where QF has to beat a plethora of other carriers. What will be interesting to see is what happens once the 3 year lease to BA is up on the LHR slots and whether QF can get into LHR from PVG at that time.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2969 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9281 times:

There's a difference between giving up and making money. If they fill 2 daily A333s to SIN with high yielding pax then they're going to make more money than SQ filling 3 daily A333s with low yielding pax. I think it's grossly unjustified to say that 'they're giving up', when all that is happening is other carriers are adding flights. The only route QF have cut recently is the NRT one (and that's apparently earthquake/nuclear meltdown related, and is only 'suspended'), and they now have a daily transcontinental 744 to SYD and more MEL and BNE flights with the A333.

[Edited 2011-09-02 23:08:47]

User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9232 times:

MEL hasn't had a direct NRT flight for at least 2-3 years.

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2969 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9219 times:

Quoting tayser (Reply 8):
MEL hasn't had a direct NRT flight for at least 2-3 years.

Sorry I meant flying to PER, not NRT - will edit to make that clear.


User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9072 times:

They're not 'giving up' on PER so to speak, but they're definitely leaving us with the bare minimum, looking at an international perspective. For example, I wish QF would have mainline PER-DPS and PER-CGK services so there's a J product on these routes. Obviously NRT isn't coming back soon and probably never will. Services to JNB are long gone with the SA codeshare. I wouldn't see flights to China or India for 5-10 years.

Oh well, I personally prefer to see a diverse range of airlines reaping the benefits over QF anyways.


User currently offlineISTGRU From Australia, joined Jun 2011, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9008 times:

Both QR and EY have mentioned Perth in the past and I guess at least one of the two will get there in the next few years. EK have been double daily into PER for years now and they do a lot of high yielding connecting traffic to some exotic ports in Africa as a result of the mining industry based in Perth. I also know a number of people who fly PER - DXB - JFK one stop service over PER - SYD - LAX - JFK. Block time is marginally longer, however its an easy ride with only one stop and no funky connections in SYD and LAX.

SQ has always had a bit presence at PER as has, but to a lesser extent, MH.


User currently offlineflythere From Hong Kong, joined May 2010, 441 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8910 times:

Quoting ISTGRU (Reply 11):
I also know a number of people who fly PER - DXB - JFK one stop service over PER - SYD - LAX - JFK. Block time is marginally longer, however its an easy ride with only one stop and no funky connections in SYD and LAX.

Shortest would be PER-HKG-JFK on CX, which is only 1.5% longer than PER-JFK on Great Circle.
passing DXB incur a 7.1% detour.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 8686 times:

One could argue they haven't had PER to 'give up' for many years. They have long since focused on SYD and the East Coast.

It still baffles me that QF don't offer AKL-PER. That is a very important market I think. They could market it as a PER-AKL-LAX connection using QF marketing flights as well.

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 10):
Oh well, I personally prefer to see a diverse range of airlines reaping the benefits over QF anyways.

Exactly. PER has gained many carriers in that respect.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2969 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7849 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 13):
It still baffles me that QF don't offer AKL-PER. That is a very important market I think. They could market it as a PER-AKL-LAX connection using QF marketing flights as well.

Agreed 100%. They could run a red eye PER-AKL, continuing from AKL on the name number and keep the AKL departure time basically the same as they are today... And an Internationally configured A332 would blow NZ out of the water (at least for J pax). Plus the extra pax could potentially mean that they could justify a return of 747s (at least some days) to the route.


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7701 times:

Put it would of course mean less customers going to LAX via the other cities and the one in particular that I would worry about is BNE, as VA is now several times a week BNE-LAX... would any such flight cause QF to have to downgrade BNE and let virgin take important corporate business there... corporate business they're unlikely to gain in AKL?

User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7645 times:

Acutally now I think about it, Now united has feed from CO, this might be a good route to go via the NRT hub now QF has pulled the plug. You could have PER-NRT, for japanese tourist, mining interest and easy access to Korea and northern China, And then connections through to LAX, SFO, New York, Chicago, Seattle, IAH, and of Course newark and washington DC. They wouldn't need that bigger aircraft, a 767 should do it. maybe 4 or 5 times a week. Maybe a 764? They could rotate it throught NRT to CO Micronesia.

User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7611 times:

That's a great idea, actually! Would love to see an American carrier in the West.

By the way, if SQ really is going 24 x weekly, what is the new flight time for the 4th service?


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7496 times:

CO's 767-400s seat 235.
So if you could get say 100 Japanese tourists
Say another 30 people connecting onto korea and northern china

then you'd only need about 100 people to continue onto the states.
So if we split this up evenly between the US hubs (not realistic because some
obviously have more international demand via asia then others but just to keep
things simple) you would only need about 14 passengers going through to each
US long haul hub.

you could offer HNL too of course but this seams a bit of a long way to do it.

My guess is east cost cities would probably be more competitive purely because
they can be served one-stop vs a transfer at LAX if going via the australian east coast.
But going to Seattle, ORD, IAH IAD and EWR plus the surrounding cities could
work out significantly faster.


User currently offlineaaway From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1522 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7437 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 13):
It still baffles me that QF don't offer AKL-PER. That is a very important market I think. They could market it as a PER-AKL-LAX connection using QF marketing flights as well.

A couple of questions: (1) What characteristics do AKL and PER share that make that particular route a 'large' market? Also, (2) though a hypothetical PER-AKL-LAX might be well timed destined for LAX, would that same timimg be good for PER-AKL O & D traffic and v.v?



With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.
User currently offlineDocpepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7165 times:

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 17):
By the way, if SQ really is going 24 x weekly, what is the new flight time for the 4th service?

SQ229 departs SIN at 0755 Arr PER 1315

SQ230 departs SIN at 1735 arr SIN 2250

Flight operates on Mon Tue and Sat with B772 Regional Configuration. F is sold as J, J is empty and Y is sold as Y. Since this is the aircraft with the old regional seats, it would be somewhat embarrassing to sell the J as normal J!!


User currently offlineSingapore 777 From Australia, joined May 1999, 1015 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7069 times:

Quoting Docpepz (Reply 20):
F is sold as J, J is empty and Y is sold as Y. Since this is the aircraft with the old regional seats, it would be somewhat embarrassing to sell the J as normal J!!

Almost right, but I think J is sold as Y as well, making the config 12J/276Y. Lucky Y passengers get first dibs at the J cabin...

Although the product is really crap compared to the A333s they usually get.


User currently offlineyeogeo From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 882 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6717 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 4):
check out how many european flights [QF] will have next year... 3 daily, 1 FRA and 2 LHR.

For a Philadelphia or San Diego-ish size city, along with all the non-Australian carriers, this seems like pretty descent coverage to me --ignoring all the other factors such as geography, and the propensity for Aussies to out-travel just about anyone  

Out of curiosity, at its zenith, what cities/frequencies did Qantas serve non-stop from Perth?

yeo



Yokoso! to my world
User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5128 times:

Quoting aaway (Reply 19):
(2) though a hypothetical PER-AKL-LAX might be well timed destined for LAX, would that same timimg be good for PER-AKL O & D traffic and v.v?

Great question.

If you keep the current timings AKL-LAX, and assume 90 minutes on the ground in AKL, that makes PER-AKL 2:05am-11:35am and AKL-PER 9:40am-12:25pm.

OK heading west, but not nice heading east.


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (2 years 12 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4973 times:

Quoting weebie (Thread starter):
Singapore will increase it's PER service to 24 weekly later on this year. With QF using two A330 services and a Jetstar service is it fair to say that QF is giving up on Perth?

Let's not loose sight of the fact that the same applies to BNE and ADL as well. SQ are 3 daily SIN-BNE, QF are 1 (+ the option of JQ via DRW). They are 3 weekly to ADL, SQ are daily. It's not that they're giving up on PER as much as they are giving up period

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
Now united has feed from CO, this might be a good route to go via the NRT hub now QF has pulled the plug. You could have PER-NRT, for japanese tourist, mining interest and easy access to Korea and northern China, And then connections through to LAX, SFO, New York, Chicago, Seattle, IAH, and of Course newark and washington DC.

Nice idea. The 767 really wouldn't be a massive amount of capacity to try and fill. And according to gcmap.com PER-NRT-EWR is 130mi shorter than PER-HKG-EWR

Quoting thegeek (Reply 23):
If you keep the current timings AKL-LAX, and assume 90 minutes on the ground in AKL, that makes PER-AKL 2:05am-11:35am and AKL-PER 9:40am-12:25pm.

Hmm, if we were to make PER-AKL 23:45-09:15 (making it more palatable), and then have 90 minutes in AKL you would then have 11:45-04:10 which isn't exactly ideal. Maybe you could blow out the east-bound layover to 2h20m so that it arrives into LAX at 05:00.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
25 aerorobnz : What's wrong with a 0030 departure (airports the world over operate that late if there are no curfews) , and adjust the departure time to say 1230 ou
26 SpinalTap : No I flew PER-NRT-PER about this time last year. The flight was suspended 08-May-2011: https://www.qantas.com.au/agents/dyn/qf/policies/ComPolPerTyo3
27 thegeek : Maybe the arrival in LAX around 5am? Possibly it would be good to beat the rush there though.
28 Ben175 : Does anyone know which lounge CZ will use? They are officially the first Skyteam airline serving PER. Exactly, 2200-0200 is one of the busiest time pe
29 EK413 : Valid question... hopefully one of our fellow a.netters can shared some light... My guess is none... Surely a PER-LHR could work... EK413[Edited 2011
30 aerorobnz : again, what difference does it make? It just means that you get where you're going faster. It opens up all the first round of departures ex LAX to th
31 jc2354 : At one time, UA had traffic rights between AKL and Australia (MEL/SYD). Do they still have the rights, and, if so, could they transfer the MEL/SYD to
32 gemuser : Would this comply with the CURRENT Japan/USA bi-lateral treaty? I know it has been liberalised and called "open skies" but I understand there are sti
33 thegeek : I think it does. It might be OK for people getting a further connection, but I would hate to get out of LAX airport at around 6am after a long flight
34 Lufthansa : No idea, I know in the past indeed it was possible for NW or UAL (or PA earlier) to operate the flight between Australia and Japan and then continue
35 thegeek : My memory is that the Japan-Australia leg had a restriction on the number of through passengers it was allowed to carry, and NW didn't enforce the re
36 Post contains images carnoc : This reminds me that some years ago when Air NZ began operating international flights out of ADL, a lot of South Australians believed Qantas was abso
37 Post contains links and images mariner : US originating passengers had to be more than 50% of the total load. http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/12/bu...ve-against-northwest-airlines.html "Japan
38 Lufthansa : If that's the case, maybe it doesnt matter anymore given open skies between the USA and Australia. And these days, given the lack of service between a
39 qf002 : You need to read my original post -- it was unclear, and sounded like QF were still flying MEL-NRT. tayser picked me up on this and I clarified (and
40 Ben175 : I wonder if DJ/VA is interested in tapping in to the lucrative PER-SIN route? A 738 easily has the legs, and it would compliment their services to DPS
41 gemuser : It's not the Australian government that could be the problem it's the Japanese., Australia has signed an almost truly open skies agreement with the U
42 thegeek : With no feed? I'd wonder if there was a point.
43 Ben175 : That is true. PER-SIN is still a huge O&D/VFR route however.
44 qf002 : They have their partnership with SQ to codeshare on... Why bother with 738s when you can send pax on one of many daily A333s with SQ's latest (and ve
45 nzrich : Large amount of miners from NZ use this route Also quite a big population of New Zealanders live in PER Only thing is Air NZ has tried a early depart
46 Viscount724 : US-Australia and US-New Zealand are both Open Skies markets so there are no restrictions on 5th freedom rights, unless they wanted to operate to a 3r
47 aerorobnz : I will be arriving at LAX at that time in 2 days time, and going straight to my hotel without any issue, as I always do..
48 thegeek : Ok, but I imagine that you are either a good customer, or paid extra to get such an early check in. They can't have anyone in the room the night befo
49 jc2354 : Thanks Viscount! I knew there were Open Skies, but didn't know that it simultaneously allowed 5th freedom travel. I guess it's time to dust off the G
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