fxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7023 posts, RR: 93 Posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 27411 times:
Looking at 80-120 frames including options. Shareholders meeting the 26th. I think it'll announce that Monday or by end of week. There is a lot being considered for the replacement currently. I could list 20 bullets for the order. Boeing is in the lead with the 764 but the A330 is also being considered. It's a good time to buy.
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5751 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 27365 times:
Just as Boeing developed the 764ER to suit the L-1011 and DC-10 replacement needs for DL and CO, perhaps Boeing could also develop the 764ERF to suit FedEx's DC-10 replacement needs. FedEx doesn't have any real need for the A330's additional range, and considering that the passenger 764ER already has more total cargo capacity than the passenger DC-10, I presume a 764ERF would be sufficiennt as a DC-10 replacement for FedEx.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 27354 times:
Quoting fxramper (Reply 5): It's more fun to text them to you on your phone.
You'd have to take a break from the photo montage.
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 4):
Just as Boeing developed the 764ER to suit the L-1011 and DC-10 replacement needs for DL and CO, perhaps Boeing could also develop the 764ERF to suit FedEx's DC-10 replacement needs.
gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16215 posts, RR: 88 Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 27292 times:
I am very very surprised.
They run more than 2 MD-10s on some is my guess... but I'm stealing fxramper's thunder by guessing when he knows for sure.
My guess also is that the opportunity cost of the 767 is much much much much lower.
That being said, the A330 will also make a great freighter and is available today. A 767-400F isn't, they'll have to develop either a new type at Boeing or an STC for a conversion. That takes time and money.
Oh, look I just got a text that says "they want a 787 cockpit in the 767 but for it to be type rated with the 757". I don't recognize the number its from, tho.
CargoLex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1153 posts, RR: 9 Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 27276 times:
Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 7):
Sure, but they basically run 2 MD-10's on 70% of the routes, couldn't they just run 1 777?
They're not used for the same things.
With a fleet as large as FedEx's, each type has a specific kind of job. The 772LRF is a great aircraft and just about all of the people who've bought it love it, but it's too much plane for the MD-10 routes, and therefore you wouldn't be using it as efficiently.
Quoting gigneil (Reply 1): If you could list 20 bullets, why didn't you?
He might not be at liberty to discuss all of them.
fpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 754 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 27151 times:
Quoting gigneil (Reply 9): My guess also is that the opportunity cost of the 767 is much much much much lower. That being said, the A330 will also make a great freighter and is available today
Wow, acctually I am agreeing with you. Although it would have been nice to see more 777 in FedEx fleet. I know the A330F is avail today, but didn't Boeing need the 764ERF to keep the 767 line busy until the tanker project gets onder way? I smell a very sweet deal for FedEx.
BTW, you might know, who in the world uses A330F's? I can't remember ever seeing one or mention of one.
fxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7023 posts, RR: 93 Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 27137 times:
Quoting gigneil (Reply 9): That being said, the A330 will also make a great freighter and is available today. A 767-400F isn't, they'll have to develop either a new type at Boeing or an STC for a conversion. That takes time and money.
The md frames from 1968 can hold out a few more years.
BTW, you might know, who in the world uses A330F's? I can't remember ever seeing one or mention of one.
Hong Kong Airlines/HNA, Turkish, and Etihad are using them right now. Malaysian/MASKargo is about to take its first - it's still at Toulouse. Turkey's MNG has some orders and will almost certainly make them work. The majority of orders were from lessors, the largest of which will be converting some orders to pax A330s.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14315 posts, RR: 26 Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 27066 times:
Quoting gigneil (Reply 9): A 767-400F isn't, they'll have to develop either a new type at Boeing or an STC for a conversion. That takes time and money.
For 80-120 frames it will have to be a new type since there aren't that many 767-400ERs made and nobody seems interesting in selling them anytime soon. I imagine that for Boeing this would be a low cost offshoot of the tanker and existing 767 and 777 freighter programs.
I'd have to guess that Boeing is going to cut them a very nice price, since on paper the A330F would seem to be a better option. The 767 wouldn't even have much of a weight advantage on it, if at all.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
fpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 754 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26999 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19): I'd have to guess that Boeing is going to cut them a very nice price, since on paper the A330F would seem to be a better option. The 767 wouldn't even have much of a weight advantage on it, if at all.
You are right, except for a few things. Boeing pretty much needs the order to keep the 767 line busy until the tankers start rolling through. Don't think it would be too difficult to convert to B764ERF from a design standpoint and FedEx does not need the extra range and weight of the A330. In other words, I am sure Airbus will try to offer a good deal, but Boeing I think is has a little more reasoning to do so.
Also, doesn't the B764's have cockpit comonality with the 777's and can share the same crew?
For FedEx, I think both the A330F and the B764F would work well.
CargoLex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1153 posts, RR: 9 Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 26886 times:
Quoting gigneil (Reply 22):
They could approve an STC and then deliver green airplanes to a third party. Like the A320 P2F, and ultimately how the A300F was built - new green passenger airplanes were delivered to EADS Dresden.
This is not exactly the case. The new-build A306F's were just that, built as freighters - no conversions. A300 B4's were conversions, and there have been many conversions by EADS on pax A306's (indeed, these conversions are still going on - some just announced last week), but not the new-build A300-600F's.
On the left is a new build, on the right is an EADS conversion.
The A320P2F program was to be a conversion of used aircraft, not of new-build narrow bodies, because nobody would buy a new build narrow body freighter. Similarly, though can buy a new-build 737 with a door, nobody but the military and a few special customers ever have since the eighties. The use of narrow-body freighters vs. narrow body pax aircraft dictates conversion, not new-build, at least these days. There was more of an appetite for QC/Convertible narrow bodies in the 1960's through the early 1980s. But the A320P2F is canceled now, for a variety of reasons.
25 gigneil: TNT wanted to. But I can't think of any others. NS
26 BMI727: No it wouldn't, and most of the work has been done in one form or another already. They don't need the range, but there doesn't seem to be much of a
27 joelyboy911: Has the 764ERF been launched or announced by Boeing at all? If not it would seem a moot point to suggest that FedEx will order it. I'm sure they can a
28 einsteinboricua: Is it a winner take all order or is a split order on the way? I don't rule out a small A380F order (FX cancelled but never ruled out ordering it again
29 Stitch: Boeing have been in negotiations with FX, so while it is not yet a firm product, neither is it just a random idea. The A330-200F is a great match for
30 Max Q: The Cockpit's may look similar but the type ratings are different and the underlying systems, totally different so no !
31 gigneil: Cancelled but Airbus still has the deposit. FYI. At "general market density" yes. For FX? Maybe not. NS
32 aerokiwi: So what would the engines be for FedEx on the 764F? GEs? Were PW ever an option on the pax variant?
33 Stitch: P&W PW4000-94 and GE CF6-80C2 were the options, but DL and CO both went with GE.
34 fuelfool: They would not be able to replace the MD-10s on a one to one basis, unless they completely change the way the entire fleet is loaded. The current ULDs
35 Stitch: The A330 would be able to handle AMJ and AYY side-by-side as done on the A300/A310, but the 767 can't. The 767-400 can evidently take the belly cans F
36 fxramper: I'm curious where you heard this information because it's not entirely true.
37 Mir: The 330 will be better from a capacity and performance standpoint and is a more modern design, but it's a heavier airplane to begin with, and if FedEx
38 lightsaber: IMHO this will be the most interesting wide body order of 2011. We'll start with: The 777 just wouldn't have good economics on the shorter missions th
39 Stitch: A post on Airline Pilot Forums from an FX employee (FDX28): http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/archive/index.php/t-57453.html
40 SASMD82: Actually, introducing a 767-400 as a replacement for the DC-10 (MD-10) seems quite logical if you don't need the range or capacity of the A330F. Howev
41 as739x: Now would FedEx having a growing fleet of 757's be a deciding factor? If they went with the 764, you have pilots to fly all but the 777 once the 727 a
42 worldliner: Can definatley see Boeing giving FX a good deal, as well as creating the 764F for them. This is Boeing's order to loose IMO, and I think FX will choos
43 JAAlbert: Okay, for those of us illiterate airplane buffs - such as myself - what's an IS&S cockpit?? And what is a 3gS? So I haven't seen any post specifi
44 wrenchon727: IS&S (Innovative solution & support) is the company that FX went with for the cockpit upgrade on the 757 that they are converting, Airborne h
45 nascarnut: Didn't Fedex help McDonnell Douglas and keep the DC10 line open by ordering top-ups of the DC10-30F/MD-11 until McDonnell were building the KC-10 as a
46 HPRamper: Many of the larger markets get flights from more than one hub, at PDX for example, MD-10s came in from MEM, IND and OAK. All the freight cannot be ro
47 1337Delta764: The passenger 767-400ER holds somewhat more cargo than a passenger DC-10 (in terms of total volume), and I wouldn't be surprised if a 764ERF would ho
48 fpetrutiu: for example here at MCO, we get an MD11 and 2 DC 10's daily from MEM within 30 min of each other attiving at 6am. For this route it would see logical
49 wrenchon727: With 777 coming on line MD11 are now becoming more frequent in the domestic system, ORD & MSP are recent upgrades examples . The 767 will replace
50 bonusonus: How many of FX's MD-10s are new builds and how many are conversions? I'm surprised that a freight carrier is considering such a large order for new ai
51 Revelation: Indeed it would be a blessing, for the reason given by Lightsaber: It'd seem the right answer here would be to grow the MD11 fleet. IIRC FedEx had pu
52 HPRamper: MSP does not yet have a regularly scheduled MD11. It is supposed to start at about the beginning of October. Sadly, it comes at the expense of the 75
53 wrenchon727: All MD10-10 were previous passenger aircraft converted to freighter. In the past FedEx was able to acquire large numbers of a/c in certain situations
54 Stitch: In terms of raw volume, the MD-10-30 is 470m3. An A330-200F would be 475m3 and the 767-400ERF would be more than the 438m3 of the 767-300F. In terms
55 kaitak: So, let's summarise and see what the benefits for each type are: B764: - Good cargo capacity - Although not a joint type rating with the 772, conversi
56 1337Delta764: Range isn't all that important for FX, as the 77F already serves that purpose for them. Both the 764ER and A330 will offer more range than an MD-10,
57 BMI727: At first glance probably, but Boeing has a lot of incentive to buy this order. I think that's what they will do, even if it is more or less a loss le
58 fpetrutiu: I really don't think FX cares much about resale value. They ussually retire airplanes, not resale them...
59 Stitch: It will be interesting to see just how low a price Boeing is willing to offer FX for the 767-400ERF. The 767-300F is still in pretty high demand, even
60 SEPilot: Why? They seem to be replacing MD11's with 77F's; I can see that if they get a really good deal on the odd MD11 that they might snatch it up, but the
61 fxramper: FX actually is still running the MD11 on most routes prior to the 77F entering service. 77F was never meant for true replacement of the 11. No. That
62 Revelation: Seems a joint type can be held with 757, but not sure if that matters to FX. Why? FX terminated the A380 contract with cause, namely the delays, so m
63 Hamlet69: Hmmmm. . . is that not what they are already doing for the KC-46A? Has that ever been confirmed? It's been bandied about on here quite a bit, but I'v
64 MillwallSean: Isnt this order more about timeframe. The 767-400 hasn't sold anything and virtually been eaten alive by the A330. When we see the timeframe that airc
65 XT6Wagon: passenger use != freighter use. One can be superior as a passenger plane without being better as a freighter. If you wish to argue the A330 is a bett
66 ltbewr: Let me throw something in here: a split of orders between the A330 and the B767. They would operate the respective models on certain city pairs where
67 Max Q: I think the interchangebility of containers will be a bigger deal than some think !
68 lightsaber: While there is a role for for the MD-11 at FedEx for years, we're looking at a need 80 to 120 airframes. If every single non-FedEx MD-11 was offered
69 Stitch: I expect it's won some competitive RFPs against the A330. But it's still secured 363 orders (for all models) in the past 15 years. Boeing has enough
70 MillwallSean: How mant 767-400 freighters sold lately? Doesnt matter freighter or passenger the A330 has eaten the 767-400 alive....
71 fuelfool: The AMJs are loaded face to face on MD-10s. You cannot load AMJs face to face on the 300/310. As a person who has to deal with this, I sure hope you
72 ha763: Boeing already has a conversion for the 767-300 ready and in service. http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q2/080616a_nr.html
73 Stitch: None, because the model is not yet officially available for order.
74 WingedMigrator: If we're talking about a 764F, perhaps we should also discuss the A333F, an airplane that doesn't exist yet but might suit FX better than the A332F.
75 ups757: What is the difference between 767-300ERF & 767-400ERF?
76 1337Delta764: A 767-400ERF would be a stretched version, just as the 767-400ER is a stretched 767-300ER.
77 fcogafa: Might UPS or DHL find this interesting as well?
78 gigneil: That's just not possible. The volume of a 767-400ER is not as addressable as an MD-10's. NS
79 747400sp: This could be interesting, and I going to look at this from an ideal point of view ( like I normally do). I would like to see a 764 ERF, because it is
80 fxramper: This thread is about freighters not pax a/c. This issue has already been resolved. I've been saying that since we brought the 77F into the parking lo