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UA Express E145 Off The Runway At Ottawa Airport  
User currently offlinecrazyfoo88 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 81 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 14074 times:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...011/09/04/runway-plane-ottawa.html

"The 44 passengers are safe and on a city bus, the Ottawa fire department tweeted.

The plane, an Embraer 145, was a United Express flight from Chicago.

Fire crews are controlling a fuel leak, and hazardous material crews have been dispatched."

Any locals have more info?

[Edited 2011-09-04 14:01:42]


crazyfoo88
80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecrazyfoo88 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 81 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 14080 times:

Appears to be LOF3363, and runway 32 seems to be the approach used.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/L...3/history/20110904/1755Z/KORD/CYOW



crazyfoo88
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13892 times:

Quoting crazyfoo88 (Reply 1):
Appears to be LOF3363, and runway 32 seems to be the approach used.

It's the second Trans States E-145 to go off a runway at YOW in a little over a year. The one below was June 16, 2010.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...6/17/ott-runway-investigation.html
http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loca...ne_100616/20100616/?hub=OttawaHome


User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1721 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13791 times:

here's the globe's link



[Edited 2011-09-04 15:30:44]

User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13677 times:
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So how many planes have now gone off the runways at YOW. Something like 5? I remember a WS flight went off the runway a few years back, and seem to recall a couple of others.

Perhaps this is a sign that the runways in YOW need some work done on them.



DHC1/3/4 MD88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineSalukipilot From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13627 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 4):
Perhaps this is a sign that the runways in YOW need some work done on them.

Hmm well Canada seems to have not got the hint about grooved runways.

It's not even that hard to do.



I dont know what the hell im doing here.....someone help me....please!!!
User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13546 times:
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We don't do the grooved runways supposedly due to iceing. It may have helped here, but it's curious that the overruns seem to happen at YOW more often than at other airports up here.

Still we don't know if the aircraft had a problem or any other data. also IIRC the other YOW overruns were on 07-25



DHC1/3/4 MD88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineSpacepope From Vatican City, joined Dec 1999, 2864 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13521 times:

Wonder if it had nosewheel steering issues, like the 145 at MLI a week or so back.


The last of the famous international playboys
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1548 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13522 times:

I'd be curious to know if this was another 145 nose wheel steering problem, like what happened to Expressjet last week! Could be a bigger problem for the E145s then we think!


ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4482 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13334 times:

Quoting Salukipilot (Reply 5):
Hmm well Canada seems to have not got the hint about grooved runways.

It's not even that hard to do.

Bingo. Almost none of the runways in Canada are grooved...unlike most developed countries.

All the incidents at YOW, the Air France A340 at YYZ....



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineauroralives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13294 times:

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 4):
So how many planes have now gone off the runways at YOW. Something like 5?

I was actually on this one in 2004:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-re...viation/2004/a04o0188/a04o0188.asp

Worst part was waiting 1.5 hours on the plane until they could find a bus (turns out from the city transit) to come and get us from the field to the terminal.


User currently onlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12993 times:

Maybe TransStates may want to consider not going to YOW at all. That's now three planes they have put off the runway there in recent years.

User currently offlineExpressJet_ERJ From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 830 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12986 times:

Doesnt Trans States have a large number of planes without thrust reversers?


ETOPS...Engines Turn Or People Swim
User currently offlineMDTrunner From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 12919 times:

Any idea what the tail number is? I see N84X but that's just about their entire fleet of registrations.

User currently offlineYYZAMS From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12586 times:

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 9):

Bingo. Almost none of the runways in Canada are grooved...unlike most developed countries.

All the incidents at YOW, the Air France A340 at YYZ....

Air France had nothing to do with grooved runways. It couldn't be the pilot's fault? Weird that 2 from the same airline happened in a year. Are we such an undeveloped country because our dollar is better than your green garbage?

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 6):
We don't do the grooved runways supposedly due to iceing. It may have helped here, but it's curious that the overruns seem to happen at YOW more often than at other airports up here.

Just like last time this happened, people (mainly those from the southern US) will point out about the lack of grooves. We actually have 4 seasons up here.


User currently offlinediamondflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12573 times:

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 14):
Just like last time this happened, people (mainly those from the southern US) will point out about the lack of grooves. We actually have 4 seasons up here.

So do many of the US airports in the north, some of which are further north than Toronto and nearly equally as far north as Ottawa and Montreal. Why Canada can't join the modern world and groove their runways is beyond me.

-DiamondFlyer



Rock Chalk Jayhawk
User currently offlineYchocky From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12468 times:

N840HK is the reg.

I've noticed that Trans States will request, nay, demand Runway 32 if there's any sort of shower in the area after the last incident.


User currently offlineYYZAMS From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12448 times:

The policy in Canada is not to cut grooves
because they provide no extra braking power in winter, and they require snow
plows to use Teflon blades to avoid tearing up the grooved runways. That
makes snow removal expensive and slow. The United States, however, has been
pressing world government bodies to require grooving because it makes
braking power much better in summer rainstorms. The issue is before the
International Civil Aviation Organization in Montreal.


Was in raining in YOW when it happened? I gather that grooved runways are only useful during rainstorms?


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12409 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12450 times:
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Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 14):
Just like last time this happened, people (mainly those from the southern US) will point out about the lack of grooves. We actually have 4 seasons up here.

June, July, August, Winter?   

Oh wait, that's Alaska. Then again, I live in an area with two seasons: Moderate and pleasant.  

Ok, serious question. Do grooved runways present an ice FOD risk? Any links are appreciated.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineLJ35 From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 21 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12441 times:

To answer MDTrunner's question the reg of the aircraft in question is N840HK.The reg from last June's(2010)incident was N847HK and like the other Trans States bird that had the runway excursion back in 2004(dba US Airways Express) here @ YOW the a/c was not equipped with thrust reversers and it just happened to be during a rain shower,however today's rain shower was a fairly intense event @ the time of the incident.


http://www.ottawasun.com/2011/09/04/...ines-goes-off-runway-passengers-ok


User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2679 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 12396 times:

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 18):
The policy in Canada is not to cut grooves
because they provide no extra braking power in winter, and they require snow
plows to use Teflon blades to avoid tearing up the grooved runways. That
makes snow removal expensive and slow. The United States, however, has been
pressing world government bodies to require grooving because it makes
braking power much better in summer rainstorms. The issue is before the
International Civil Aviation Organization in Montreal.


Was in raining in YOW when it happened? I gather that grooved runways are only useful during rainstorms?

Interesting.

So, even less of an excuse for Canada to seemingly plow only the center of the runways instead of the whole thing sometimes, if they can get it done faster.

And I'm not saying that the center shouldn't be plowed the best because of course it should; I'm talking about several days later still only having about 100' of a 150' wide runway cleared.

Separate thought -- entirely anecdotal evidence of course, but I noticed absolutely no difference between the speed of runways being plowed in Canada vs. anywhere in the US that receives any appreciable amount of snow each year. DTW in particular stands out as doing an awesome job.


User currently offlineBlueJuice From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 12345 times:

Glad to hear everyone is okay.

Let the humor begin. I would like to think Trans States planes would do very well on wet runways.  


User currently offlineYYZatcboy From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1003 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 12251 times:
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Another thing to consider is that YOW in the last month or so had some runways NOTAMed US due to rubber removal. In wet conditions if there is sufficient rubber on the runway could that lead to a drastic loss of friction?


DHC1/3/4 MD88 L1011 A319/20/21/30 B727 735/6/7/8/9 762/3 E175/90 CRJ/700/705 CC150. J/S DH8D 736/7/8
User currently offlineYYZRWY23 From Canada, joined Aug 2009, 561 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 12205 times:

Quoting Salukipilot (Reply 5):
Hmm well Canada seems to have not got the hint about grooved runways.

While grooved runways do make the runway safer in heavy rain, they make snow removal more expensive, plus the cost of grooving the runways (not sure what that is). I am not sure of the history behind grooved runways, but I am sure pilots landed aircraft on runways without grooves for a long time before they were...it isn't an excuse.

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 14):
Air France had nothing to do with grooved runways.

Thank you! Landing over a quarter way down the runway and not activating the thrust reverser for over 9 seconds had nothing to do with over-running. When a pilot touches down at the right point of the runway at YYZ, they tend to stay on it. Maybe the FO for AF missed that part of training. Even with a dry runway, that A340 was going off the end.

Quoting diamondflyer (Reply 15):
Why Canada can't join the modern world and groove their runways is beyond me.

Completely unrelated, but I have been wondering why the US can't join the modern world and have a functioning economy....funny where your issues lie and where Canada's do.

Simply put: Canada has more winter weather then summer weather. Improved braking in winter conditions are more important then improved braking in summer conditions. I understand that the United States has a large portion of their runways grooved, which I am sure cost a lot. How much debt is the US in again?

YYZRWY23



If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them.
User currently onlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 12178 times:

Quoting YYZRWY23 (Reply 23):

While grooved runways do make the runway safer in heavy rain, they make snow removal more expensive, plus the cost of grooving the runways (not sure what that is). I am not sure of the history behind grooved runways, but I am sure pilots landed aircraft on runways without grooves for a long time before they were...it isn't an excuse.

Can some one please elaborate on how grooved runways make snow removal more expensive? It's still the same plows clearing the snow in either event.

Quoting YYZRWY23 (Reply 23):

Simply put: Canada has more winter weather then summer weather. Improved braking in winter conditions are more important then improved braking in summer conditions. I understand that the United States has a large portion of their runways grooved, which I am sure cost a lot. How much debt is the US in again?

Well, if we go on that logic, then BUF has more winter weather because of all the lake effect snow they get, yet BUF has grooved runways. MSP, DTW, and BOS are all airports that get plenty of snow and have grooved runways. DEN is another great example as well.

And your point about the US debt is not a valid one for this argument. Airports in the US are largely self sustaining entities meaning that most of the snow removal money comes from things like PFC's and landing fees, and very little of it comes from federal sources. Meaning that costs for Airport snow removal contribute little, if anything to the National Debt.


25 kaiarahi : Transport Canada, FAA, NASA and the National Research Council have been conducting joint studies for a number of years on winter runway friction co-e
26 YOWVIEWER : This is better than watching the comedy channel! Reminds me of Rick Mercer in Washington. Back to topic, the difference with this incident versus the
27 MikeCT : Really? Pretty much all of Minnesota, North Dakota, most of Idaho, Oregon and all of Washington.
28 kaiarahi : Duhh - dunno what I was thinking. That'll teach me not to post before I've had coffee.
29 thenoflyzone : They will not land on 7/25 if it is wet. The problem is, they choose a wet runway 14/32, with a crosswind component. Don't know where the wind was bl
30 Post contains images cyeg66 : Hey, thenoflyzone, slow your planes down on final, for cryin' out loud! They keep leaving the runways! In YYC, from my experience, they clear the main
31 falstaff : A good chunk of Michigan and Wisconsin too.
32 suseJ772 : Thank you. I was super confused by this point as well. MSP particularly is not only far north but a very, very busy airport. This is a the right poin
33 Post contains images thenoflyzone : When you deal with an airline like LOF whose callsign is "waterski", what do you expect.... They're naturals man... As for keepin' em fast on final,
34 apodino : According to a pilot from a different carrier who was in YOW at the time of the incident, he said that based on where the plane ended up in relation
35 Post contains links and images Ychocky : Thread hasn't had Peter's great shot added yet: View Large View MediumPhoto © Peter Tsagaris - CYOW Airport Watch Anyone confirm that the frame has b
36 suseJ772 : That's what I thought when looking at the picture. But my first impression was from Peter's photo which looks to me more like it skidded off the side
37 Post contains images suseJ772 : Can anyone tell me where this plane is sitting? At first I thought it was to the side of 32, but then I realized that with the Flying Club in the back
38 flylku : I am sure the Canadians have put a lot of thought and research into not grooving their runways just as we have put a lot of thought into our decision
39 ac888yow : It is resting on the West side of and perpendicular to runway 32, at approximately the Kilo taxiway (around where 140.4 degrees is indicated on the c
40 okie : So many questions. You can not tell if they landed long or were just simply carrying too much speed trying to get to a taxiway to exit runway. Could
41 Post contains images cyeg66 : My goodness, I can't believe I didn't think of the irony. Guess it's 'cause we don't see those garbage 145's and that ident out West... Ooh, I should
42 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : Ha ha, but the data doesn't seem to support your conclusion . According to Transport Canada, your country has had almost three times the rate of runw
43 Post contains images cyeg66 : You're kidding with all this, right? Do you not see (more than) a few flaws in the way you interpret this data? If not, it's pointless to discuss fur
44 JBirdAV8r : Care to point them out other than dismissing them with a broad brush?
45 Post contains images kaiarahi : Facing west - i.e. 14/32 is behind the tail. If you actually look at the data, you'll see that the vast majority of accidents in Canada occur at bush
46 kaiarahi : Who's "they"? That's certainly not what the joint TC/FAA/NASA/NCR studies found for climates like Ottawa's.
47 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : You're just guessing. I'm quoting data from Jacobs Consultancy on behalf of Transport Canada, which incidentally, is for large jet aircraft on hard-s
48 kaiarahi : And reading just a little further in the report you cite "rates were calculated for the period 1990-2006" and "The Canadian rate is based on a very s
49 suseJ772 : Both of these facts lead me to believe this had more to do with an improper crosswind procedure (likely exacerbated by a wet runway) than it had to d
50 thenoflyzone : From what i know, Trans States has no reverse thrust and no anti-skid (they do, but its INOP) on their E145s. This is the main problem. It doesn't mak
51 Salukipilot : I'm positive we have an operational brake logic on 100% of our airplanes.
52 heathrow : Man I departed just before this happenned! Flying back in tonight, I'll take a look. I feel bad for my friends at Swissport. Not a good day!! Glad eve
53 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : That's one big leap to make. Another pretty big assumptive leap to make. I'm thinking a pattern of accidents at a specific airport might point to a n
54 kaiarahi : I don't know what you know about statistics - but both are insignificant. Of the 3 Canadian incidents, we're talking about AF in YOW in 2006, UAx in
55 thenoflyzone : Listen, drop it with the grooved vs. ungrooved runway argument. That is cleary not the main factor at play here. Lack of proper training, and lack of
56 diamondflyer : Why would they? All US & US care about is who can do the flying on the cheap. Trans States must be the answer for the time being. To think that t
57 PITRules : Not any more weird than both happening at the same airport. Very much so. Add a little moisture to the rubber and you could very easily have braking
58 Kaiarahi : Reality check: 1. 2. Both runways at YOW are regularly used, summer and winter, in rain and snow, by aircraft ranging up to 767s, A330s, CC-150s, CC1
59 thenoflyzone : Good luck trying to groove Asphalt runways... Thenoflyzone
60 Post contains images apodino : I take it you have never been to BOS, which has Asphalt Runways that are grooved.
61 Kaiarahi : And even better luck trying to avoid the potholes in the spring after the ice in the grooves has expanded and contracted as it melts and the asphalt
62 thenoflyzone : Wonder how long that's gonna last ! One good winter, with well below freezing temperatures (something BOS sees much less of than YOW) and ice, and Ma
63 apodino : I don't know why Massport uses Asphalt instead of Concrete to pave their runways, but the runways have held up very well over the years with asphalt
64 Post contains links apodino : To keep this threads discussion about the Trans States plan in YOW, here is a link to a thread dedicated to the Grooved Runway questions. http://www.a
65 Kaiarahi : See post 25: Thanks.
66 PITRules : What do you mean "without incident"? If YOW didn't keep having these incidents, this thread would not exist. All major accidents have a chain of even
67 Post contains links Kaiarahi : It didn't. Maybe you should read the TSB report. How so? The braking distance required was 6,614ft. The remaining runway from touchdown was 5,000ft.
68 Kaiarahi : Ignore my last post - the edit function has gone crazy (again). Surely you mean "If Trans States didn't keep having these incidents, this thread would
69 Post contains links PITRules : And you continue to ignore that their overruns are at the same airport. Must be one huge coincidence then. It did. 80 knots. "CONCLUSIONS: FINDINGS A
70 Kaiarahi : Findings from the TSB report on the 2004 over-run (the report for the 2010 over-run is not yet available): " 1. The approach to Runway 25 was high, f
71 PITRules : I can't edit either, but I was able to get my reply (#69) mostly fixed, except for a response to this one: Living in Pennsylvania, I know all about ba
72 PITRules : Maybe you were able to edit; or I just mis-read, but I thought you were referring to the roads so disregard
73 Kaiarahi : Agreed. But they decrease safety in winter in a climate where the temperature remains substantially below 0C for months at a time. As I said in an ea
74 thenoflyzone : Listen....regardless of the investigation results to come out of this, one thing is for sure.... Poor piloting skills (cough....LOF...cough) will not
75 PITRules : Relative to other places? Of course they will! Here's my reply to a previous post: Runways need to be repaved periodically anyway. Also, temperature
76 thenoflyzone : A little update. Trans States no longer serves Canada. They stopped flying to YYZ, YUL, YOW and YQB. I think this was already in the schedules even be
77 Kaiarahi : Is this part of the UA/AC realignment of service?
78 thenoflyzone : I would imagine. It's as if ExpressJet picked up Trans States's old contract. Thenoflyzone
79 Post contains images cyeg66 : Who let Chomsky in on the discussion? $5 says we don't hear of an ExpressJet plane tilling the YOW infield in the next 6 years.
80 Kaiarahi : Anyone know if XE's E-145s are equipped with T/Rs?
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