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If DL Eliminated NB Trans Atlantic/what Gets Axed?  
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10563 times:

I hear rumors DL may eliminate all B757 TATL flying in the foreseeable future. One of the reasons would be the inconsistencies in the product up front. Makes sense in a way.

With other capacity reductions in mind, the B767 could easily handle the extra burden I would guess.

Which routes could be in jeopardy due to this? You know, places where a B767 would be just a little over the top...like KEF(would it decrease chances of a return?), Scandinavia, UK...other seaonal routes...

How will this place DL competitively along with UA and AA on similar routes?

[Edited 2011-09-08 17:38:48]


Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8376 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10430 times:
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DL 757 fly from JFK to many cities like BRU, FRA, Berlin, and Zurich.

User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7546 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10212 times:

The 757 will be flying Europe for the foreseeable future.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10142 times:

Please elaborate more on such rumor.

Not buying this one just yet. DL doesn't have enough aircraft to accomplish this during the summer months.


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10065 times:

I doubt DL will discontinue all 757 TATL flying. Most of it is done on the ex-TWA 757s with nose to tail AVOD. There are also some routes that are done on ex-NW 757s (5600) which would explain the consistency up front and in Y compared to the ex-TWA 757s -- Old overheads, no PTVs, older seats. Those 5600s can be pulled and used on routes to Hawaii, South America, and Tokyo as they have ETOPS and winglets.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2191 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10028 times:

Sounds like garbage to me. DL uses the 757 on too many important transatlantic routes, as stated above.

In recent years, the 757 has provided an advantage to some airlines by allowing them to provide multiple schedules (a la CO going 4X on 75Ls EWR-LHR) as a way of attracting more premium fliers.

If DL is having issues with "product inconsistencies" then UA/CO certainly has their work cut out for them, with 2-class BusinessFirst on the PMCO 757s and 3 class services on PMUA planes, both of which will be used out of IAD and EWR. However, judging by the fact that UA/CO has decided NOT to go forth with one standardized product, I don't believe it is too much of an issue; therefore, I cannot see why this is the case with Delta.

Furthermore, the 757 allows DL to link some of its secondary East Coast hubs such as CVG and BOS to key European cities like LHR, CDG and AMS because they are within the aircraft's range. They've also allowed some wiggle room with the AF-KL JV to serve cities like PHL and PIT. Those may not have succeeded (largely for other reasons), but at least the 757 allowed those options to materialize at some point.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineIADLHR From Italy, joined Apr 2005, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9992 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
DL 757 fly from JFK to many cities like BRU, FRA, Berlin, and Zurich.

Since when does DL fly the 757 JFK-Berlin? I am glad I went when I did and didnt fly a 757.


User currently offlineBlueman87 From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9932 times:

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 6):
Since when does DL fly the 757 JFK-Berlin? I am glad I went when I did and didnt fly a 757.

they have for a long time 10 years



B6 T5 JFK DL T2/3 JFK
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5276 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 9909 times:

Quoting Blueman87 (Reply 7):

JFK-TXL is, and has always been, a 763. You may be confusing DL with CO who flew it on a 752 for many years, and still does in the winter.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10431 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9504 times:

Quoting Blueman87 (Reply 7):
they have for a long time 10 years

I don't think so. I retired in '05 and we (DL) hadn't started flying TATL with the 757s at that time. Matter of fact, I don't think DL started TATL service with the 757 until after they emerged from BK.

[Edited 2011-09-08 22:15:48]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineredhair From Spain, joined Apr 2011, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9068 times:

AGP-JFK and VLC-JFK are both operated by TATL 757 if Im not mistaken

User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8959 times:

I think my source is reliable, however, if deemed too speculative just delete thread please...

Obviously, B757's are on their way out regardless, at some point. However, my source stated that this is an operational change before airplane retirements are due. Providing more service consistencies as well as operational efficiencies were some of the reasons given.

We'll just have to wait and see I guess...



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8869 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 11):
I think my source is reliable

I would believe it if someone told me they were going to cancel all TATL 75A flying (among other reasons, due to the product up front). I would not believe it if someone told me they were going to get rid of all TATL 757 flying including the 75E fleet. I think the 75E will be doing its thing for a very long time.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 11):
Obviously, B757's are on their way out regardless, at some point.

The 75Es are new enough, and accumulate cycles slowly enough (as they rarely perform flights shorter than 5 hours), that they could easily fly with DL for 15 or even 20 more years.


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8820 times:

Quoting peanuts (Thread starter):
I hear rumors DL may eliminate all B757 TATL flying in the foreseeable future.

If the pull the 752s from international service, would they reconfigure them back to domestic config or would they put them on transcon routes as is?


User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8730 times:

IF the rumor is true, I think the following would lose service: JFK-KEF, JFK-SNN, JFK-MAN, JFK-AGP, JFK-VLC, JFK-ARN, JFK-CPH, PIT-CDG, and probably PHL-CDG as well. I also think the summer seasonal BOS-CDG would be dropped on DL metal and AF would just upgauge one of their flights. And now that I think about it, JFK-DKR is also a 757 route that probably doesn't warrant and upgauge.

JFK-DUB, JFK-BRU, and JFK-FRA would certainly all get upgauged to 767s.



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlineAAExecPlat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 635 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8625 times:

One has to wonder if there is pressure to upgauge the most profitable TATL routes and cut the NB TATL flying largely because the ATI/JV with AC/KL generates re enue despite funneling traffic through their networks.

Pressure could be cost related, or from partners who neted higher network utilizaion.


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8570 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 14):
PIT-CDG, and probably PHL-CDG as well.

PHL-CDG has already been dropped. PIT-CDG is arguably on it's way out as well.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8341 times:

Hard to believe the likes of JFK-AGP and JFK-VLC make money without any demand upfront and Y fares for 500-600 euros R/T in the middle of august (Spain high high high season). Know people who have flown both routes this summer and say flights averaged 90% loads in Y although plenty of empty seats in J.

Cheapiest JFK R/T from MAD or BCN during summer is normally above 800 euros, much bigger markets than malaga and valencia although much more competition (IB, CO, DL, AA, etc).

Let's see if they comeback to AGP and VLC next summer,



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlinebrightcedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1289 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8304 times:

Quoting FSDan (Reply 14):
JFK-DUB, JFK-BRU, and JFK-FRA would certainly all get upgauged to 767s.

Not sure about JFK-BRU being upgraded as there is a lot of competition on the route, BRU is now a Star hub, and SN is said to soon be inaugurating its own BRU-JFK sometime next year.
I think DL will focus BRU traffic via ATL and via surrounding Skyteam partners (AF and KL).



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User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4018 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7262 times:
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Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 4):
I doubt DL will discontinue all 757 TATL flying. Most of it is done on the ex-TWA 757s with nose to tail AVOD. There are also some routes that are done on ex-NW 757s (5600) which would explain the consistency up front and in Y compared to the ex-TWA 757s -- Old overheads, no PTVs, older seats. Those 5600s can be pulled and used on routes to Hawaii, South America, and Tokyo as they have ETOPS and winglets.

Wow. I thought these PMNW 757s had already been upgraded to the rest of the longhaul 757 fleet to maintain consistency. Is there any plan to do this?


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3469 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7088 times:

I would have to think this is the distant future? I can't see them not flying them for the summer of 2012 or Delta will significantly reduce European service

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6662 times:

A lot of the 757 TATL routes don't require the product consistency up-front.

I just don't put a lot of credit on this rumor at least in the near-future. This measure has significant impact to DL's JFK plans and network strategy.

I've heard a lot of rumors come and go on this board but this is one seems highly speculative.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2179 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 5822 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 4):
I doubt DL will discontinue all 757 TATL flying. Most of it is done on the ex-TWA 757s with nose to tail AVOD.

Thus, most of the inconsistency is in the fact that most 763ER have no such thing as nose-to-tail AVOD... and neither does 744, although it does not do much t-atl curently.

I see no big deal with up-front inconsistencies as long as one given configuration (say, the less comfortable) is always used on the same destinations or flights, ie, those that get the lowest yields with little J traffic in this example.
Most airlines in fact do this, 757 or not, because 1. their existing fleet, when upgraded, is not upgraded all at once, and 2. they have specific sub-fleets with specific configurations for specific markets. As a result, most big airlines have "inconsistent" seat offers throughout their whole fleet.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5229 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 13):
or would they put them on transcon routes as is?

That was part of the wording how it was diluted to me...
Just to reiterate: highly speculative, as there is one person between my (known to be reliable) source and ATL. So I have to take into account a certain level of dilution of information.

Basically it was stated DL is questioning the sense of B757 TATL and redeploying them transcon instead.

I do have a feeling there are some significantly intense things going on at headquarters currently. We know of staffing reductions, major new software implementation headaches and the list goes on and on. Sounds like crunch time to me, on many different levels.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2191 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5154 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 16):
PHL-CDG has already been dropped. PIT-CDG is arguably on it's way out as well.

We'll see about PITCDG. The flight is currently going 4x weekly until the end of October, then is going into hibernation through the winter. It is slated to return at the end of March, again at 4x weekly (and hopefully going up to 5x weekly, as it is during peak summer months) but we will see if this flight is able to make it on its own without the State and Taxpayer subsidies, which ended in June.

It is no secret that the flight had not been hitting revenue targets even with the subsidy in place, but we will have to see.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 17):
Let's see if they comeback to AGP and VLC next summer

These routes never made sense to me. How can low-yielding, sun/leisure destinations in Southern Europe command nothing but rock-bottom fares from NYC?



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
25 Delta2ual : They started in 2007. If it's true, then DL will either have to go back to larger aircraft, or pull out of alot of cities.
26 mah4546 : Because the demographics of Ameircans visiting secondary markets in Europe skew towards wealthier. Venice is lure leisure, but has some of the highes
27 UPPERDECKFAN : AFAIK there are much more spaniards on these routes (AGP&VLC) than americans, NYC is huge here in spain and it means people from mid/large metro
28 FSDan : It's going to a 767 for the winter... Is it not coming back next summer?
29 pqdtw : Delta has already announced that it will be serving VLC DAILY next summer(instead of 3-4x weekly like this year and last) . No word on AGP.
30 UPPERDECKFAN : Do you have a source for it, I live in the area and haven't heard a word about that, BTW, do someone know if they are getting some sort of subsidy fr
31 pqdtw : It was announced internally. If there has not yet been a press release, look for one soon.
32 TR1 : Could you PM me the internal source? I don't recall seeing anything about this at the PMNW NYC base.
33 simairlinenet : AGP, KEF, and VLC have all been loaded for sale next summer in the GDS.
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