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What Is The Status Of FRA Expansion?  
User currently offlineYYZAMS From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 227 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 7371 times:

I know last December I was there and my A340 dropped us off in the middle of the ramp and we were put on a bus clear across Germany (well it seemed that way) to customs. There was still construction going on and no jetway. Will I have a gate this December or will the construction still be present? What is the latest update?

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineogepma From UK - England, joined Jan 2011, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7326 times:

Quoting YYZAMS (Thread starter):

FRA had always been known for having numerous remote stands but there are still a lot of jetways connected to the terminal. Terminal 1 is being expanded with the new pier A plus which will add 7 extra jetways to the terminal. The remote stands are not really there because of the construction so there will always be a 50/50 chance that you might not get a direct gate and with the new runway opening in October, the likelihood of departing or arriving at a remote stand might be higher at least until next year when the new pier opens. The construction at FRA will be on till around 2017 when the first phase of the new terminal 3 would have been completed


User currently offlineYYZAMS From Canada, joined Feb 2011, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6937 times:

thanks for the update! looks like I will go to MUC until 2017!

User currently offlinefrat From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6791 times:

When you are arriving on a intercontinental flight, the chances of a jetway psoition are quite high. European flights often have a tarmac position but intercont flights not that often. Which airline are you flying with?

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9333 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6745 times:

I always prefer getting bussed over getting dropped at gate A42 with a Marathon walk as a result. Arriving from Schengen at the bus drop in A is quite convenient.

To answer the question, the change is constant at FRA and when T3 will be opened there will still be construction going on., somwhere else. 6 slots pr hour will be offered and should be taken for the initial phase and FRA can be lucky to have that chance.

All that remains to be taken care of is the confirmation necessary night ops. Freight needs the night and thjere is no mistake about that.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6338 times:

As an aircraft lover, I prefer a free sight seeing tour over the apron 1000 times of going though these ugly holes - jetways are one of the biggest wrong developments ever in aviation and nothing for a.netters.

User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9000 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6333 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
I always prefer getting bussed over getting dropped at gate A42 with a Marathon walk as a result. Arriving from Schengen at the bus drop in A is quite convenient.

Oh, so damn true... A42 is soooo far away. I hope they change that on the new A0 part of the terminal. Quite a walk as well.

I only had once an apron position with the 744, all other flights were terminal positions. But you pretty much see mostly 330s/ 340s parked on the apron. But most of the flights get terminal positions.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineiainbhx From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6130 times:

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 2):

thanks for the update! looks like I will go to MUC until 2017!



MUC has plenty of buses as well, in fact there seems to be an increasing number of them. Of course, the MUC bus rides are fairly short - not halfway to Mainz.  

To be fair, the bus ride at FRA can be quite interesting until you spent about half of it hugging the terminal line and seeing nothing exciting. However, if you are on a fairly tight connect, the bus ride can be a PITA and the B Non-Schengen bus gates are a pit.



iainbhx
User currently offlineauroralives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6021 times:

Quoting frat (Reply 3):
When you are arriving on a intercontinental flight, the chances of a jetway psoition are quite high

I've flown AC into FRA many times... generally from YOW or YYZ, and I'm probably at least 50/50 for bus vs a gate. After a long flight, buses just seem to be a "pain", but point taken with avoiding the long walk...

What exactly are the criteria for getting a gate?? Are airlines being "cheap" by parking in a remote stand?

Who actually makes the call of bus vs gate??


User currently offlinebriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 5899 times:

Ah, the joys of the FCT at FRA. A S-class Mercedes ride on the tarmac instead of a bus.


next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 9000 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5790 times:
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HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting briboy (Reply 9):
A S-class Mercedes ride on the tarmac instead of a bus.

Or Porsche Panamera. That has far more style than the busses to the terminal... 

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9333 posts, RR: 29
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5773 times:

Quoting iainbhx (Reply 7):
the bus ride can be a PITA and the B Non-Schengen bus gates are a pit.

rather a bottleneck, fighting your way up on the escalators.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineLufthansa411 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 692 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5705 times:

Quoting auroralives (Reply 8):
What exactly are the criteria for getting a gate?? Are airlines being "cheap" by parking in a remote stand?

Who actually makes the call of bus vs gate??

With most full service airlines in Europe, it comes down to who is on the plane, how busy the airport is at a given time and what the plane is doing next. By who is on the plane, I mean the number of wheelchairs, deaf, blind, and pax with infants that could have a great amount of difficulty deplaning via stairs. If you have a plane coming in with several pax that need wheelchairs and can't do stairs, it makes no sense to put them at a bus gate where they have to get a special truck to lower the pax to the ground.

Then there is gate availability. When you land, you might see several open gates even though you pull up to a remote stand. However, once you take minimum ground times and the pax manifest into account, if your plane lands at 8 am with no wheelchairs and 3 planes are landing at 8:15 and each have a bunch, it is better to put your plane at a remote stand and leave the other gates empty as your plane won't be turned around in time (that was a very simplistic example. In the real world obviously scheduling arrivals/departures is much more complex)

Finally, what the plane is doing next is important. Let's say the plane you are on lands in FRA and after your flight has 2 hours of scheduled ground time to correct deferred maintenance issues. It makes more sense to park it remotely.

In terms of who makes the call, at a major hubs like FRA, CDG and LHR, where a single airline dominates a terminal area, the airline decides and forwards the information to ramp control. There are usually several people just coordinating the data on flights and deciding what to do with specific aircraft.



Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5604 times:

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 12):
With most full service airlines in Europe, it comes down to who is on the plane, how busy the airport is at a given time and what the plane is doing next. By who is on the plane, I mean the number of wheelchairs, deaf, blind, and pax with infants that could have a great amount of difficulty deplaning via stairs. If you have a plane coming in with several pax that need wheelchairs and can't do stairs, it makes no sense to put them at a bus gate where they have to get a special truck to lower the pax to the ground. ...

...and deciding what to do with specific aircraft.

Thanks Lufthansa411.

I was wondering if there is any trend regarding Schengen and non-Schengen flights in and out of FRA.

I fly regularly on the LCA-FRA route and we always have to use a remote stand - and its usually the very last on the south western part of the airport. (Cyprus is not part of the Schengen Area yet).



CY@Uk
User currently offlineiainbhx From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5501 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
rather a bottleneck, fighting your way up on the escalators.

Have you been reading my blog  

Actually, the B51-55 ones are nasty as departure gates as well, luckily I've been mainly getting B30-33 as a bus gate lately with their great views.

Quoting briboy (Reply 9):
Ah, the joys of the FCT at FRA. A S-class Mercedes ride on the tarmac instead of a bus.

Same goes with the B Non-Schengen FCL, although please note that F-class car pickup from plane is not certain at FRA or MUC.

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 13):
I was wondering if there is any trend regarding Schengen and non-Schengen flights in and out of FRA

No, there are ample buses for everyone  

The only tendency I have noticed is that Regional Jets are nearly always a bus and 735 and 319 have a pretty good chance of a bus. Did FRA-NUE a few months ago and I swear the bus ride was nearly as long as the flight.



iainbhx
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9333 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5419 times:

Quoting iainbhx (Reply 14):
Have you been reading my blog

no, just travelling regularly to the UK and other non Schengen countries.

Quoting iainbhx (Reply 14):
have noticed is that Regional Jets are nearly always a bus and 735 and 319

look at it that way, you get a free sightseeing ride, non passengers have to pay for that. From the terminal on the right hand side, the stands behind the cargo centre are the boonies and on the left hand side behind T2 it's the bay of pigs (Schweinebucht) in German.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineauroralives From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5344 times:

Quoting Lufthansa411 (Reply 12):
In terms of who makes the call.... etc

Many thanks for the very detailed answer Lufthansa411 !!


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4723 posts, RR: 39
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5236 times:
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Quoting auroralives (Reply 16):
Many thanks for the very detailed answer Lufthansa411 !!

My thanks as well. I am not a frequent user of the airport in Frankfurt. I usually drive by it by car or by train, but have been here as a passenger about 10 times. I really like the airport though there is the contrast between the old and new terminal. But now with all the renovations and expansions going on near and inside the old buildings, the difference will probably become smaller and the quality of the airport was always good in my opinion.

Now let's wait and see how the new terminal 3 will turn out to be and how they will connect it to the present passenger terminals and train station.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25170 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5194 times:

Quoting auroralives (Reply 8):
Quoting frat (Reply 3):
When you are arriving on a intercontinental flight, the chances of a jetway psoition are quite high

I've flown AC into FRA many times... generally from YOW or YYZ, and I'm probably at least 50/50 for bus vs a gate. After a long flight, buses just seem to be a "pain", but point taken with avoiding the long walk...

If you want to avoid a bus for longhaul flights, connect at AMS. It's almost unheard of for anything larger than KL E-190s and Fokker 70/100s and similar regional types of other carriers to use bus gates. I have never had to use a bus gate for 737s, A320s or any widebodies.

ZRH also uses a lot of buses, again mainly for regional aircraft but also some A320 and B737 flights, but almost never for widebodies.


User currently offlinerobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5165 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 17):
Now let's wait and see how the new terminal 3 will turn out to be and how they will connect it to the present passenger terminals and train station.

From what I hear following is in the planning for T3:
- A new suburban train line (S-Bahn)
- An extension of the APM (probably a new line, maybe also connecting the big office projects north of the airport)
- Upgrading the existing connection to the Autobahn


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9333 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5157 times:

The situation at FRA will not be better with the expansion, may be with T3 but that will cause another problem with interlining between LH and * and the rest of the carriers. . The new gates at A0 will just add 8 to 12 widebody gates, The new runway will start with 6 new slots per hour. Once the full capacity of about 40 additional slots is taken up, it will be the same again as today, even with T3. We simply don't have enough space here. But again, using the bus is not that bad if you are coming in on a Schengen flight, it can save a lot of walking.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4723 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5129 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
But again, using the bus is not that bad if you are coming in on a Schengen flight, it can save a lot of walking.

Indeed it can, and usually does.  
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
If you want to avoid a bus for long-haul flights, connect at AMS. It's almost unheard of for anything larger than KL E-190s and Fokker 70/100s and similar regional types of other carriers to use bus gates.

The last year (mid-2010 to mid-2011) I have flown over 55 times to the UK and back. Almost always with the F70/F100. For these flights indeed always a bus is used at AMS. But I found the connection good enough and you get to see some nice views from the platforms.

[Edited 2011-09-12 08:17:23]

User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4937 times:

Quoting briboy (Reply 9):
Ah, the joys of the FCT at FRA. A S-class Mercedes ride on the tarmac instead of a bus.

The only Mercedes I see departing the FCT are Vitos. Anything lower than that is in 95% of the time a Panamera. Porsche did some good advertising there, I'm sure LH did not pay a penny for those cars...

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 13):
I fly regularly on the LCA-FRA route and we always have to use a remote stand - and its usually the very last on the south western part of the airport. (Cyprus is not part of the Schengen Area yet).

South-West? Are you sure? That's LHT and GAT area. I think you mean North-West. In any case, I am on the side that the further the bus ride on the tarmac, the better I feel about the journey. Like it's been said before; it's a free airport tour, and hell, in FRA you have quite some exotic birds from time to time. No better spotting opportunity than a remote stand!

Quoting robffm2 (Reply 19):
From what I hear following is in the planning for T3:
- A new suburban train line (S-Bahn)
- An extension of the APM (probably a new line, maybe also connecting the big office projects north of the airport)
- Upgrading the existing connection to the Autobahn

About your points 2 and 3, they are as good as certain. The APM will in fact be an extension to the existing line. The APM station in T2 has been build so it can easily be extended to run to the south-side of the parallels.
I haven't heard of a new S-Bahn line in planning though. However, the S7/RE70 lines run in a North-South direction parallel to the Autobahn A5, so I can definately imagine them making a small bend to support T3.
What is a fact already is that the existing S8/S9 lines that currently run through FRA Regional Train Station will have another stop in the future at Gateway Gardens, the former US Army barracks which are in transit of becoming a new quarter of commerce right next to the airport. From what I witnessed a couple of months ago development on this cityscape is slow, but LH Catering (LSG) have settled there a while ago, Hotels are in the making and DE Headquarter are to move there from Kelsterbach.

Some other developing construction sites are:
The (Inter)National Train Station at FRA is seen a sudden birth of a multi-storey car park next to it. They are connected by an APM which spans over some heavily used streets that lead to the departure floor of FRA. Truely a magnificent sight, from an architectural point of view. Speaking of architecture; The Hilton and Hilton Inn located within the train station are almost complete, and costumers seem to enjoy it there, lot's of people shopping and dining in the "New Work City / The Squaire". If you get a chance while transiting FRA, make sure to check it out!

Some news I heard concerning the new North-West landing strip at FRA: Oct. 20 is supposed to be the date when it is cleared for full operation (that is: initially 6 landings/h), however the first airplane landing will be on Oct. 21, with none less on board than Chanceless Merkel. If I wasn't so unlucky to be in Florida at that date I'd pick up my camera and hope for an A310 ...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Once the full capacity of about 40 additional slots is taken up, it will be the same again as today, even with T3. We simply don't have enough space here.

Mind you, be happy it's not LHR!



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlinebriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4821 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 22):
The only Mercedes I see departing the FCT are Vitos. Anything lower than that is in 95% of the time a Panamera. Porsche did some good advertising there, I'm sure LH did not pay a penny for those cars...

That, or Porsche can't sell those rather ugly cars.

I have not been through FRA since February, and back then it seemed 50/50 Mercedes/Porsche. I will see again in the upcoming months.



next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9333 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4720 times:

Quoting Semaex (Reply 22):
Mind you, be happy it's not LHR!

I may be one of the rather few people who like LHR but that has to do with the fact that I use that airport regularly since 1967, so nostalgia is a part of it. I pity the Brits that they do not get the badly needed third runway, so yes, we are far better off here. No doubt about that.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 22):
(that is: initially 6 landings/h),

I am sure they spread the landings, the initial slot increase is 6 per hour, but they will ease the burden of the other 2 landing runways and distribute the traffic evenly.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
25 Post contains images CYatUK : True true!
26 Post contains links and images LH422 : I did the tour on Sunday for €8 (including free access to the visitor's terrace). It was really nice. Plus, it has the advantage that the bus stops
27 Post contains links and images robffm2 : There is a German speaking forum about constructions / buildings / infrastructure projects in Germany. Especially the Frankfurt threads are quite exte
28 Post contains links and images Semaex : Correct. North of A3 (and the airport) and West of A5: http://www.schuessler-plan.de/upload...isp/4_S-Bahn_Gateway_Gardens_1.png POV, but I believe t
29 jaylink : Mostly I agree, but you'll often get a modern-looking jetway with windows in Japan. That doesn't help in FRA, true.
30 Semaex : A rumour (or misinformation) I've heard from someone working at the team which designs T3: The APM will run underneath the Parallels, and not (as woul
31 traindoc : Just flew CO 51, FRA to EWR on 9/16. When the plane came in EWR, (CO 50) it docked at one of the A gates and pax deplaned thru a jetway. However, then
32 fraT : That would be great but what I have heard before the tunnel would be too expensive. But you never know, things and opinions are changing.
33 robffm2 : There isn't too much space between the runways and the Autobahn. I would be surprised if it would be enough to have an elevated two tracks APM. I can
34 Semaex : There isn't enough space between the runways and the A5 to build an elevated APM, but who says it has to be elevated? Applying a smooth angle to get t
35 Post contains images Speedbird128 : That would be fabulous - they can have a stop for me at my home in Zeppelinheim
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