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WN Ending PHL-BOS In February  
User currently offlinePHLJJS From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 417 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 8626 times:

I saw a post over at flyertalk, but nothing here. Apparently, WN is ending PHL-BOS on February 11, 2012. I don't think this was previously announced. If you try to book a flight after 2/11, you get this message: Published scheduled service between (Philadelphia - PHL) and (Boston - BOS) will be discontinued on 02/11/2012. Please select an alternate date or choose another origination/destination. Please visit the Southwest Airlines interactive route map for alternate choices. (SW100102).

Even with the recent cut backs, I'm kinda surprised to see this. Going from serving 3 Boston area airports from PHL to zero. US Airways will now have a monopoly on the route, unless another airline decides to try their luck. Welcome back to the $1000+ airfares US sold when they had the monopoly before.

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8392 times:

What is odd is usually when WN ramps up a city and battles an existing carrier, they ultimately win. This is rare case where WN is battling a legacy and losing.

I can name a lot of cities where they have won or are holding their own against existing carriers.

MCO
BWI
PHX
LAS
LAX
STL
DEN

And the list of cities where they haven't won against the existing carrier.

PHL


Makes you wonder...


User currently offlinerichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4278 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 8360 times:

Enter Jetblue into this market? Surely makes as much as sense as the BOS-BWI battle...


None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8143 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
I can name a lot of cities where they have won or are holding their own against existing carriers.

MCO
BWI
PHX
LAS
LAX
STL
DEN

My explanation is that MCO and BWI were not hubs for anyone else, although FL did try to challenge them more recently. PHX and LAS were HP hubs, but had sufficient O&D for WN to work until US merged with HP and shrunk their operations there. STL and DEN were AA and UA's weakest hubs, and LAX is the 2nd largest market in the country. Compared to PHL, while PHL does have a lot of O&D, it is a major hub for US.

Quoting richierich (Reply 2):
Enter Jetblue into this market? Surely makes as much as sense as the BOS-BWI battle...

If they time their flights right, I don't see why not. There is room for two.



2013 World Series Champions!
User currently offlineNutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 504 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7931 times:

The competitive landscape has changed since the 1000 dollar fares. If any airline tries to take advantage of a market in an extreme way, there are multiple carriers that could/ would start service in rapid fashion to take advantage of the high yields. Pricing too high can be counter-productive and airlines understand this today.

This same topic was discussed in a recent WN/ PHL thread where the same statements were made about US Airways after WN announced an exit from multiple northeast cities from PHL. WN is going through a fundamental transformation, in fact, I wouldnt be shocked to see this take place in some of the California markets in relatively short order.

Pulling aircraft from one market to another where more money can me made is good business....its not like WN doesnt have plans for those aircraft.....lets see what they do with them.



American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 673 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7908 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
MCO
BWI
PHX
LAS
LAX
STL
DEN

FLL too. That's probably the worse of them all. Considering:
A) It's A Secondary Airport
B) Every LCC In America Serves It.
C) It's Already A Hub For An ULCC
D) It's Very Low Yeilding

I mean the fact that they are able to have a large operation like they do means something. They have really held their ground.


User currently offlineSJUSXM From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7900 times:

Quoting Nutsaboutplanes (Reply 4):
Pulling aircraft from one market to another where more money can me made is good business....its not like WN doesnt have plans for those aircraft.....lets see what they do with them.

Rumor is that theyre going on the new WN service from ATL-PHX/LAS



AT7, ER3, ER4, ER5, CR7, E70, E75, F100, M82, M83, 722, 732, 738, 752, 762, 763, AB6, 320, 321, 772, 77W
User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 170 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7855 times:

WN also beat up AA twice at SJC, though another operation where I'd put WN on the losing end of the battle is SLC against DL. It'll be interesting to see how things play out in ATL.

User currently offlineNutsaboutplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 504 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7851 times:

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 6):
Rumor is that theyre going on the new WN service from ATL-PHX/LAS

I was thinking that this was the case but was not sure. It makes sense.



American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7533 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7740 times:

Quoting PHLJJS (Thread starter):
Even with the recent cut backs, I'm kinda surprised to see this. Going from serving 3 Boston area airports from PHL to zero.

   I agree, that is extreme; especially since in the last known-news report when they announced that they were dropping PHL-MHT/PVD) early next year they mentioned that PHL-BOS was staying (but at a reduced frequency). It is kind of weird that they're only giving the service just under a year to prove itself.

I guess they reviewed of what happened when FL cut back frequency on that route (during their final year of offerering it) and didn't want to repeat the disastrous results that followed in terms of bookings.

Quoting PHLJJS (Thread starter):
US Airways will now have a monopoly on the route, unless another airline decides to try their luck. Welcome back to the $1000+ airfares US sold when they had the monopoly before.

While US will once again have a monopoly on the route(s) again; for giggles I did a mock booking for a r/t PHL-BDL weekend on US' website to see what fares one come up with since that route's already been a US monopoly for years.

Using Oct. 8 AM departure and Oct. 9 PM return; one gets a r/t fare of $300.

While it isn't the $120-180 r/t fares one gets when booking a PHL-BOS/MHT/PVD itinerary; it certainly isn't the $600-1000 monopoly r/t fares that US was previously notorious for.

HOWEVER, if one wishes to book a day-trip; that's a whole different story. A PHL-BDL r/t, same day return Oct. 8 shows a fare of $878; which is absolutely rediculous.

A Friday/Saturday r/t (using Oct. 7 & 8) produces a fare of $399.

A Thursday day-trip (or Oct. 6) produces a r/t fare of $878 for non-stops, $610 for a connection itinerary though LGA.

Bottom line: if there's no competition on a US route out of PHL, DON'T book a day-trip.

Quoting richierich (Reply 2):
Enter Jetblue into this market? Surely makes as much as sense as the BOS-BWI battle...

   There's now plenty of room at PHL for B6 to come in.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7688 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
And the list of cities where they haven't won against the existing carrier.

PHL

And IAH.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineRamblinMan From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7673 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
And IAH.

Pretty sure that's a different story seeing as how they have a huge operation at HOU. WN hasn't, until recently, exactly been known for serving multiple airports in one metro.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2213 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7641 times:

US Airways must command extremely high fares and yields in this market. WN is also cutting back a lot at PHL, but maybe we'll see this return someday when times are better or when the new aircraft come in.


next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1312 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7610 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 9):
Enter Jetblue into this market? Surely makes as much as sense as the BOS-BWI battle...

There's now plenty of room at PHL for B6 to come in.

While there is room on this route, I'm not sure B6 want's to get into a blood bath in this route. With B6 taking few aircraft deliveries in the short term, I'm sure they would rather place there airplanes on routes that would have a higher ROI. Essentially B6 would need 8 flights and be willing to devote 2 airplanes to this route; and I'm not sure they would want to do that.


User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 805 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6547 times:

Call me crazy, but I feel like DL would think about putting on like 2x CRJ service between
BOS-PHL. Without WN and if DL put little capacity on the route, yields might be decent (even good), DL could help fill it's BOS-LHR/AMS/CDG, and DL could use its excess CRJ capacity more usefully than LAX-SFO/LAS.


User currently onlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 749 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6331 times:

What is the present market share on these two routes ... BOS-PHL and BOS-BWI ??

I know two frequent travellers between BOS and BWI ... and both of them prefer B6.

[Edited 2011-09-11 19:18:34]

User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6210 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
What is odd is usually when WN ramps up a city and battles an existing carrier, they ultimately win. This is rare case where WN is battling a legacy and losing.


And the list of cities where they haven't won against the existing carrier.

PHL


Makes you wonder...

Not to discredit your list, but I'm not sure that most of those on your list are an apples to apples comparison to PHL, with the notable exception of DEN and possibly STL. In LAS/PHX, WN arrived at, more or less, the same time as the other carrier so it wasn't as if HP ever had a longstanding advantage in PHX that they ceded to WN. Indeed, in LAS WN was always the #1 carrier. LAX is not really a dominant hub for one carrier, though I guess it doesn't diminish your point that they have co-existed there. MCO was never really a true hub for anyone, and certainly not a dominant hub for DL if they considered it a hub at some point. Lastly, BWI was an important hub for PI but lost it's importance with the US merger, as DCA, PHL, and PIT (at the time) all became more important. Furthermore, even at it's peak BWI was no where near what PHL is for US today.

The part that really makes you wonder is why WN built up PHL in the first place. From the start, data seemed to indicate that a large build-up wasn't justified from a bottom line standpoint. WN never tried such a build-up in DTW, MSP, or SLC (what little they did try in SLC wasn't very successful) - and they were wise to not do so, if you ask me.

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 14):
Call me crazy, but I feel like DL would think about putting on like 2x CRJ service between
BOS-PHL. Without WN and if DL put little capacity on the route, yields might be decent (even good), DL could help fill it's BOS-LHR/AMS/CDG, and DL could use its excess CRJ capacity more usefully than LAX-SFO/LAS.

4th time's the charm?

That said, I wouldn't be shocked if DL would try it yet again.


User currently offlinePHLJJS From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5923 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 9):
There's now plenty of room at PHL for B6 to come in.

I'd love to see B6 in PHL. Supposedly the airport has been talking to them and Virgin America about flying from PHL for a while now. With WN dropping the route, PHL-BOS might be a way for them to test the waters.

I think part of the problem WN might have had was trying to lure enough business travelers away from US. Maybe the extra emenities and wifi coming in 2012 will help B6 establish a customer base in PHL, should they decide to start the route.


User currently offlineHiFlyerAS From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 989 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5827 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
And the list of cities where they haven't won against the existing carrier.

PHL

And SEA


User currently offlineWNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5811 times:

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 18):
And SEA

I don't think ever intended to win against anyone in SEA though.... they were just routes picked up from Morris.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5666 times:

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 16):
The part that really makes you wonder is why WN built up PHL in the first place. From the start, data seemed to indicate that a large build-up wasn't justified from a bottom line standpoint. WN never tried such a build-up in DTW, MSP, or SLC (what little they did try in SLC wasn't very successful) - and they were wise to not do so, if you ask me.

The most likely explanation was that when WN entered PHL, they were expecting US to go under, like many people were. Their initial entry did stimulate the market strongly--PHL's enplanements went up over 30 percent in the year after WN entered.

But WN planned their entry into PHL when David Siegel was still CEO, before the HP merger and Doug Parker taking over. Remember how Siegel famously said in an interview when WN had four gates at PHL, "if they go to eight gates, we're dead." That's not talk one would hear from Parker, who of course was well-experienced at competing with WN in PHX.

Also, PHL was one of the places where US had to make a stand. It's their biggest international hub, and has the biggest and wealthiest O & D base of any of their hubs. WN is settling in to a decent medium-size focus operation at PHL, which should coexist well at its reduced size with US and will continue to provide airfare accountability on competing routes.

Also, WN's priorities have changed. DEN has been hungrily devouring Canyon Blue seat capacity, and PHL was probably the weakest link.

Jim

[Edited 2011-09-11 22:04:06]


Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlinePHLwok From United States of America, joined May 2007, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5538 times:

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 14):
Call me crazy, but I feel like DL would think about putting on like 2x CRJ service between
BOS-PHL. Without WN and if DL put little capacity on the route, yields might be decent (even good), DL could help fill it's BOS-LHR/AMS/CDG, and DL could use its excess CRJ capacity more usefully than LAX-SFO/LAS.

We talk on here about DL's "dartboard" approach with CRJs, so they might do it, but I believe they've done so in the past and dropped the route. IIRC, the airlines who've dropped PHL-BOS in recent years are AA (Eagle), DL (RJs), FL, and WN. No one else has brought the capacity and frequency the US has, and as such, the frequent flyer base for US hasn't defected.

And I do not see B6 opening the route in the near term, at least not without connectivity to more than just BOS. If they coupled it with some West Coast and Florida routes, but I couldn't see them opening with just a BOS route. I've always assumed one of the primary reasons B6 has never served PHL was due to its proximity to JFK, their primary hub.


User currently offlineValorien From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5371 times:

Because WN aircraft travel to destinations beyond the city pairs you stated above, the "pullout" may have to do more with excessive delays than not enough "yield." Even though the flights may be money makers, they may actually cause WN to lose money in the grand scheme of things. PHL-BOS has been a "consistently late flight" for WN and because its other cities are affected, it may not have been worth it for them to continue on that route. Heck, in 2001, WN pulled out of SFO because of the delays it caused in WN route system, not because it wasn't making money at SFO.

User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6499 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5030 times:

Quoting GSP psgr (Reply 7):

Where does WN fly from SLC?



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6638 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4995 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 9):

Using Oct. 8 AM departure and Oct. 9 PM return; one gets a r/t fare of $300.

While it isn't the $120-180 r/t fares one gets when booking a PHL-BOS/MHT/PVD itinerary; it certainly isn't the $600-1000 monopoly r/t fares that US was previously notorious for.

But you're going too far out for most business travelers.

For PHL-BDL, 9/19-9/22: $600
For PHL-BOS, 9/19-9/22: $200

For PHL-BDL, 9/13-9/15: $1,004
For PHL-BOS, 9/13-9/15: $318

This is where having WN makes the most difference in the walk-up or short notice fares.


25 usairways85 : I would love to see B6 come in and do PHL-BOS/MCO/FLL and maybe try a transcon. Many of us on here said that when WN initially announced PHL-BOS B6 s
26 AirBuffalo : So what are the odds that US will keep the "PHL express" dedicated check in area in BOS? B6 is my favorite to fill in the void ... the only other cand
27 enilria : I think that B6 should take a pause and considering anything WN could not make work. As was pointed out above, WN loses very rarely so the deck was h
28 Post contains links PHLBOS : True, but one has to wonder WHICH carrier are the business travelers currently choosing for PHL-BOS? If they've been choosing US over WN, due to its
29 Post contains images HiFlyerAS : Excellent point!
30 apodino : Exactly, IAH wasn't designed to compete with CO, IAH was only used to operate a DAL shuttle from. I am wondering how much Amtrak is affecting the BOS
31 usairways85 : While I have done this a few times and it is a nice ride that allows you to work during the trip, it is not an extremely viable business travel optio
32 dartland : Bingo. Afternoon flights, especially in summer weather, are frequently several hours late, easily making the train worth it. Morning flights generall
33 727LOVER : Well, since no one answered, I'll just guess myself: PDX, SEA, OAK, LAX, DEN, MDW, LAS, PHX If they fly to all of these, where else are they expected
34 Cubsrule : I think you have the "what" correct but have missed at least one major "why:" US has more flights on the route before 1 p.m. than WN has all day, and
35 richierich : In my experience, Amtrak's Acela only gives the airlines a true run for the money on the Washington-NYC and Boston-NYC routes, and all points within
36 ScottB : And that is the most important message when any new entrant comes into a high-fare market, whether that is WN or B6 or F9 or anyone else -- use it or
37 apodino : How many places is this true for? Its not just PHL-BOS, but think of any other airlines in monopoly hubs...mainly the old US PIT hub, or the DL CVG h
38 Post contains images PHLBOS : Agreed, that's why I either booked my r/t w/the LFC or, if scheduling was an issue, booked them for at least one of the travel legs whenever I did a
39 Nutsaboutplanes : I find this thread a bit comical. This is what needs to happen for air carriers to build long-term stability. We all know why WN entered these markets
40 jonathanxxxx : Your right nobody did answer.. Sorry for that.. (I just saw this reply now). According to the route map they serve (non-stop): BWI MDW DEN ABQ PHX LA
41 Sevensixtyseven : However, some of those are only 1x daily. ABQ is only 1x, as is RNO. BOI and MDW are only 2x, just to name a few. DL isn't losing any, and this shows
42 richierich : But clearly bad for the consumer...without any air competition on this route, BOS-PHL ticket prices are sure to increase significantly. And consideri
43 HPRamper : And, yet again, it's the consumer's fault. The blame must be placed on them for not supporting the route. US may not have the route to themselves for
44 BOStonsox : Their Boston hub will definitely help. That's something WN didn't have. B6 has a very strong loyalty in the Boston area.
45 Post contains links PHLJJS : Read more: http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...r_fares_to_rise.html#ixzz1Xv8LBy9a Watch sports videos you won't find anywhere else From the article
46 tharanga : Why does B6 need to flow anybody beyond BOS? By that logic, B6 shouldn't fly BOS-BWI, BOS-DCA, BOS-IAD, etc, etc. WN was trying to knock US out as th
47 John : WN got crushed in PHL, so why would B6 subject themselves to a potential money loser, especially in this volatile environment. I'm not saying B6 would
48 jfklganyc : "WN got crushed in PHL, so why would B6 subject themselves to a potential money loser, especially in this volatile environment. I'm not saying B6 woul
49 Post contains links and images PHLBOS : I was thinking similarly. Note to B6, please come to Philly w/this route. Another B6 advantage over US (or any legacy for that matter) is that one ca
50 tharanga : all we're talking about is a limited operation, with a handful of BOS-PHL flights.
51 HPRamper : Even if the B6 entry is limited, I still don't envision US responding favorably on such an important route as BOS-PHL. While B6 may have an easier go
52 Sevensixtyseven : WN serves the Bay Area very well, actually, OAK has 107-ish departures daily, making it the dominating carrier, SFO has a handful of destinations now
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