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Buses For Planes Would Save $89 Million In Subsidies  
User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 564 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 14109 times:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...-planes-would-save-89-million.html

CO already operates flights using bus equipment. In light of recent events, this should be an option for the stability of the EAS network.

67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9381 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (3 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 14067 times:

....provided that the passengers would accept the bus service. I for my part would not and rather go by car. OK, that would mean no subsidy at all, but would also make the bus service less viable.

Abolishing subsidized feeder services at all would eventually leave such cities without any significant small industry because the infrastructure is not there. i think the questions and answers in that study are too simple. OTH, subsidizing a singe passenger with a couple of hundred Dollars does not make sense either.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinedowntown273 From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13863 times:

I remember Air France used to code-share on TGV trains (French high-speed trains) for years - not sure if they still do. So you could get an Air France ticket to travel Bordeaux-CDG-LAX. The TGV stops at CDG airport.

User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6771 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (3 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13846 times:

You can get CO flight numbers on Amtrak service, I do believe..


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5141 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (3 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13788 times:

Prague-Brno in the Czech Republic has a busservice with a OK flightnumber. Same as highspeed trainservices in Europe.
I think its a good idea. Anything under 2,5 hours driving time centre to centre should be bus or train imo.


User currently offlineGrid From Kazakhstan, joined Apr 2010, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (3 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13749 times:

I took a bus once ...


ATR72 E120 E140 E170 E190 Q200 717 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 A320 A321 A330 A340 MD11 MD82 MD83 MD88 MD90
User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13720 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 4):
Anything under 2,5 hours driving time centre to centre should be bus or train imo.


That is exactly the opinion of the SNCF (French train company) which would like to develop speed-train European inter-connections under 2 to 2.5 hours.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8376 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (3 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13720 times:

I agree somewhat. 150 miles is a long way to have to take a bus or drive in order to catch a short flight, anything less than 100mi is just wasting money. My daily commute to work is 45 miles each way and I know people who have even longer commutes. Subsidies are good to get the route established but after a few years the subsidy should be reduced or ended.

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9381 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (3 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 13638 times:

well, there's a quality difference between a bus ride and a ride on a TGV or ICE train. LH as well puts their flight numbers on dedicated ICE trains from FRA to STR and CGN. FRA/DUS however is already too far to be competetive with connecting services to other hubs, although it adds only about 20/25 minutes. Also, bags are checked through on trains with flight numbers.

LH also has dedicated bus services in luxury buses to Heidelberg, Mannheim and Strassburg, also operating under a flight number.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineoffloaded From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 886 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13383 times:

Quoting downtown273 (Reply 2):

No BOD anymore, but some routes eg:

WED 05OCT11 PARIS AREA /BRUSSELS *AF
** AIR FRANCE - SN ** 21 WE 05OCT 0000
1 CDG ZYR 0747 0859 AF7181 J9 C9 D9 I1 Z9 O9 W9 S9 A9 Y9#TRNC*E
2 CDG ZYR 1004 1119 AF7179 J9 C9 D9 I1 Z9 O9 W9 S9 A9 Y9#TRNC*E
3 CDG ZYR 1235 1415 AF7183 J9 C9 D9 I1 Z9 O9 W9 S9 A9 Y9#TRNC*E
4 CDG ZYR 1603 1805 AF7185 J9 C9 D9 I1 Z9 O9 W9 S9 A9 Y9#TRNC*E
5 CDG ZYR 1839 2027 AF7187 J9 C9 D9 I1 Z9 O9 W9 S9 A9 Y9#TRNC*E



To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 564 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13011 times:

The comfort of a bus is strictly based on its configuration. A 33 or 36 passenger configuration would be more comfortable than a 57 passenger setup, but there would be complaints there too about the service not being utilitarian. A 45' bus with 36 big black leather seats could certainly replace any short haul flight under 200 miles without a whimper from the passengers. You could probably get a mini-fridge on there and the seat costs would still be cheaper than a 9 seater.

User currently offlineglbltrvlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 12980 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Abolishing subsidized feeder services at all would eventually leave such cities without any significant small industry because the infrastructure is not there.

That was the classic argument for the EAS subsidy, but I don't believe there's ever been any evidence presented that supports the argument. EAS has been around in the US for over 30 years and you'd think someone would be able to point to a business that was willing to go on record as saying they wouldn't exist if it wasn't for EAS flights.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13115 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (3 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 12880 times:

As to replacing some EAS air service with subdisied busses, there are serious issues to consider with busses to some locations. Some EAS locations are quite isolated, with limited road access, sometimes mountains, bad weather (especially in the winter) could make impossible to run the busses, it would take much longer in time perhaps hours instead of 30-40 Min by air.

User currently offlineCuriousFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 694 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (3 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12820 times:

The problem would be quality. Bus service in the US (and many other countries, it is not just a US issue, far from it) is generally horrible. Greyhound, who issued the study that the article relies on, typically is a pretty bad bus company:
- dirty old buses
- cramped uncomforatble seats
- nasty drivers
- no onboard service
- bathrooms so filthy that the whole back of the bus smells of sewage.

I am all for buses or trains replacing flights under 150 miles because it would be more efficient and certainly more reliable (less dependency on weather and less breakdowns), but the service should have quality standards set by law (you cannot trust the airlines or bus coompanies for quality):
- guaranteed connections, sufficient frequency
- luggage handling that matches what airlines do
- minimal standards for comfort, in coach and first (the Hamptons Jitney is a great example in NYC)
- decent facilities (not the grim bus terminals we find in NY or LA...)


User currently offlineTGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 874 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (3 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12753 times:

Other airlines do it also:


HKG Hong Kong Intl HK [VHHH]
MRS Marseille Provence FR [LFML]
WED 28 Sep 2011 - 05 Oct 2011

Carrier Flight From Depart To Arrive A/C St Frequency | Dur'n | Dep T | Arr T | Effect | Ending | Exceptions
--------- ------ ---- -------- ---- -------- --- -- ----------------------------------------------------------------
CX 261 HKG 23:45 CDG 06:30 +1 744 0 1234567 18:40 1 2A 02 Jul 28 Oct
-> CX/2C 9511 CDG 08:21 +1 XRF 12:25 +1 TRN 0 TN -



Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
User currently offlineJA From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 564 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12700 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 12):
Some EAS locations are quite isolated, with limited road access, sometimes mountains, bad weather (especially in the winter) could make impossible to run the busses, it would take much longer in time perhaps hours instead of 30-40 Min by air.

They can easily get a waiver for continued EAS.

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 13):
The problem would be quality. Bus service in the US (and many other countries, it is not just a US issue, far from it) is generally horrible.

I guess the article's stock photo doesn't help...lol. I would expect the buses to run directly from airport to airport. The quality issue is ever present, but it is an issue with some of today's EAS carriers too. This is why enplanements in certain markets have crashed.


User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 12689 times:

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 13):
not the grim bus terminals we find in NY

Specially the GWB terminal. Took a bus to Jersey from there last week, and I can tell you, it has to be the worst in Manhattan, and specially now that all the shops and delis are closed.

Quoting TGV (Reply 14):
but the service should have quality standards set by law (you cannot trust the airlines or bus coompanies for quality):

I bet when the standers hadve to go high, bus companies will start to complain and in the long term, subsidies will be given to them.



Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
User currently offlineplanesmith From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12063 times:

I'm a firm believer in an integrated transport system such as that seen in Germany, Holland, France etc with excellent rail connections up to a couple of hundred miles. Sadly here in the UK any decisions may make in that regard will take decades due to any interested party complaining and appealing against any point it doesn't like. Any resulting service will be a botched one. I find it sad that there are so few rail/airport interchanges, especially so in the US where the potential links are obvious.

Like many contributors I can't say that the chance of travelling on a bus fires my enthusiasm, too often having left the environs of the airport simply to join static traffic!! That, and of course what others have said about plain uncomfortable vehicles, cramped seats, and unpredictable journeys.


User currently offlineGroup51 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 11660 times:

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 13):

The problem would be quality. Bus service in the US (and many other countries, it is not just a US issue, far from it) is generally horrible. Greyhound, who issued the study that the article relies on, typically is a pretty bad bus company:
- dirty old buses
- cramped uncomforatble seats
- nasty drivers
- no onboard service
- bathrooms so filthy that the whole back of the bus smells of sewage.

Greyhound is owned by First, a British company, and their UK Greyhound service appears to be premium:

http://www.bug.co.uk/blog/2009/08/20...ning-coaches-in-the-uk-next-month/


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8376 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (3 years 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 11440 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
well, there's a quality difference between a bus ride and a ride on a TGV or ICE train.

Not really. TGV and ICE are inefficient for distances less than 300-400 Kms. Here we're talking about distances that are less than 150 miles ( less than 240Kms). Here in the BOS-NYC corridor, BoltBus is an excellet alternative to both plane and train.


User currently offlinevinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 11239 times:

Quoting CuriousFlyer (Reply 13):

The problem would be quality. Bus service in the US (and many other countries, it is not just a US issue, far from it) is generally horrible. Greyhound, who issued the study that the article relies on, typically is a pretty bad bus company:
- dirty old buses
- cramped uncomforatble seats
- nasty drivers
- no onboard service
- bathrooms so filthy that the whole back of the bus smells of sewage.

Not my experience. Definetely not as horrible as you imply. And you forget the likes of Megabus which are pretty decent.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):
Not really. TGV and ICE are inefficient for distances less than 300-400 Kms. Here we're talking about distances that are less than 150 miles ( less than 240Kms). Here in the BOS-NYC corridor, BoltBus is an excellet alternative to both plane and train.

Really? Then there would be no high speed rail in Europe and the corridor most likely to have high speed rail in this country (Washington - NYC) would never have projected stations at Baltimore, Wilmington and Philadelphia as distance would be way to little. Quasi high speed rail works very well between Philadelphia and New York for example.

It's not about speed anyway, it's about travel time and cost.


User currently offlinefn1001 From Moldova, joined Sep 2008, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 11239 times:

Etihad is using coaches between Dubai, Al Ain and AUH
http://www.etihadairways.com/sites/E...ad/attheairport/pages/Coaches.aspx


Lufthansa had own trains in the 80ies
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Airport_Express



Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
User currently offlineMidex461 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (3 years 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 11028 times:

Quoting planesmith (Reply 17):
especially so in the US where the potential links are obvious

There are a few airports in the US that have these links - BWI, EWR, MKE, & BUR all have train stations within close proximity to the terminal; heck, at BUR you can WALK from the terminal to the train station!
If you count local transit, there are more - DCA, ATL, SFO, PDX, SEA all have transit stations where you can catch a train right at the airport

I think in the US, cultural attitudes come into play. Here, pax trains are largely viewed as an anachronism - there are A LOT of cities that have absolutely no trains, or only see one a day.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 3):
You can get CO flight numbers on Amtrak service, I do believe..

You can - CO codeshares with 2V/Amtrak on service out of EWR



Opinions and views expressed are MINE and do NOT represent the views of US Airways
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9381 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (3 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10988 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 19):
Not really. TGV and ICE are inefficient for distances less than 300-400 Kms. Here we're talking about distances that are less than 150 miles

well, the two lines I mentioned, FRA to CGN and STR measure about 100 km and 200 km in distance (roughly) and are highly efficient. Faster than plane and road take the passengers in little less than an hour to CGN resp. 73 minutes to STR .

No bus could match that, published times for aircarft are about 40 minutes, with flights closing 15 to 20 minutes before.

Compare all that with a 150 mile bus ride in the US taking at least 3 hours to substitute a flight, nightmare and waste of time even in a luxury bus. With 800 US$ subsidies per passengers a Cessna charter on demand would be cheaper.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinekellmark From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 693 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (3 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10941 times:

I remember, years ago, when working for Eastern Airlines, we had a subsidized flight that operated a Lockheed Electra MIA-VRB-OCF-GNV-JAX and then DCA. It carried a couple of passengers on each leg, if that. Some days it was empty on some legs. EAS routes in recent years are just as bad. Look at Johnstown in Pennsylvania, with just a couple of passengers a day with subsidized service from IAD. That was Congressman Murtha's pet deal. (Not to mention the millions he poured into that airport).

It is ridiculous to continue this waste of resources that we don't have on markets that won't support themselves.

This whole EAS business has to end. There is no money for it and it makes no sense economically.

If a city has the demand to be served, then someone will serve it. If it doesn't then the city itself can offer incentives for an airline to serve it. That is their choice. Like Panama City Florida and Southwest.


25 UALWN : Yes, you can. Newark to Philadelphia, for instance.
26 YULWinterSkies : AF, KL and I believe LX have long been using buses to provide service to Ottawa in connection from YUL. They certainly still do. Trick is that you do
27 acidradio : We almost need to create a "class" system for buses in the US. Right now most intercity bus service in the US is on Greyhound and about the only good
28 frmrCapCadet : Our local Grayhound freaked us out with grossly deviant behavior on board, and drivers simply ignored it. Our local airport van is too unreliable to d
29 heathrow : Very popular for LX, KL and AF out of YOW. Bus departs XDS (ottawa Rail) to YUL to connect passengers on to flights. Mind you, coming back from let's
30 aerokiwi : I know approximately zero about the US bus system (though I did read a hilarious article on the "Chinese" buses running out of New York up to Boston
31 N766UA : How in the heck would that work in a bus?!
32 glbltrvlr : Presumably the same way it used to work in an aircraft. Smokers in the back and the folks in nearby non-smoking seats get to enjoy the secondary smok
33 BMI727 : We shouldn't be subsidizing buses either. Taking three times as long might make me whimper a bit.
34 acidradio : You opened a door to the back section of the bus where they permitted smoking.
35 stasisLAX : PHL and (shortly) PHX have local rail connections from the airport terminals.
36 teneriffe77 : I know that in NY 2 EAS Cities, Ogdensburg and Massena, are up on St. Lawrence river and over an hour from the nearest non EAS airports, SYR and BTV.
37 Post contains images KinGFriDAy013 : That's definitely not the case here in the Northeast. Greyhound is currently taking delivery of new Prevost Car X3-45s and MCI D4505s to replace olde
38 cloudboy : If that in fact was the case, then why are the busses not raking up the dollars now? Aren't they served by bus routes now? Obviously this is just a pu
39 vio : Bus service makes perfect sense, but I would rather choose train over it. About 5 years ago, I was always travelling from Calgary to Edmonton (about 3
40 mikesairways : I remember at one time UA had bus service between SJC and SFO, in fact, if I recall correctly, it was actually a UA Flight number AND you even got 500
41 calibansa333 : The article mentions a route from Lebanon, NH to Boston on Dartmouth Coach. I've had the chance to take this route, and it's actually not half bad. Y
42 JA : Most EAS airports leak over 80% of the flyers in their catchment area. The vast majority are leaking to a medium or large hub accessible by...car. If
43 7673mech : So? Then move to the big city. (Not you - just a generalization). You apparently haven't flown on a RJ?
44 Post contains images chootie : For the LONGEST time LH no longer offer baggage check-in for travel on the trains. That means you shlep it up to the platform(or down depending on yo
45 ILUV767 : Try running a bus from Vernal Utah to Denver. That is an all day adventure right there or an hour long flight.
46 csavel : This is true, but people living there shouldn't expect the rest of the country to subsidize them. In the same way people living in Phoenix or Las Veg
47 CuriousFlyer : Thanks, this is very ineresting news, going in the right direction. I have flown RJs and have had nightmare trips to upstate NY or YUL. If there is a
48 FWAERJ : I read the article and study last night. The study compared not only motorcoaches to EAS flights, but 15-seat Mercedes-Benz (Freightliner) Sprinter va
49 Post contains images 747400sp : I know MCI, Prevost and Van Hool are happy with this report. But really, this could be a hit or miss ideal. Take in mind that Amtrak Thruway service,
50 glbltrvlr : You used to be able to check baggage at Paddington Station when taking the Heathrow Express. That stopped right after 9/11 as I recall.
51 Post contains links enilria : U.S. taxpayers already pay for an @ssinine bus service between Amtrak stations and various random communities. It carries even fewer people than the E
52 rcair1 : However, the local airport bus service, ie. super shuttle, works. I'm more than 1 hour from the airport, and I've taken super shuttle a number of tim
53 frmrCapCadet : Amtrak should buy Grayhound. A single entity should establish the intercity/state ground system of transportation, and ensure it connects well with ot
54 enilria : Amtrak shouldn't buy anything. They are a disaster. How many airports are there in this country that have rail connected to them vs. Europe? I don't
55 FWAERJ : I can think of three airports with Amtrak service off the top of my head: BWI (linked to terminal via short bus) EWR (linked via AirTrain) MKE (see B
56 frmrCapCadet : Amtrak's disaster is related to political decisions and underfunding. And of course transportatiom is simply expensive, far more expensive when hidden
57 Post contains links and images airbazar : And we don't and we never will. Things in Europe are a little different. For starters, high cost of gas make rail attractive no matter the distance I
58 N766UA : Did it work?
59 747400sp : Do not forget BUR, SAN is also with in about 15 min of San Diego Union Station. If there was a way to get an extra track laid down on that BNSF Rail
60 enilria : So, there is one (or zero)? I've done the BWI deal. It is awful. In Europe it is not nearly so dinky. I presume MKE is the same? If you really want i
61 breiz : Thalys (Bruxelles-Paris TGV), Brussels Airlines and Jet Airways are going to offer joint tickets to lure people from CDG to BRU.
62 Post contains images KingFriday013 : One of the companies (I think there's more than just those two) have T2145s too I think... those put even A320s to shame! Fung wah!!! Quality coach m
63 acidradio : Amazingly it did!
64 usxguy : Interesting test of the system with your bid, sir. Unfortunately I think Dennis is going to award the market you bid on to an airline though.
65 Post contains links VV701 : BA "flight" BA9563 is one of a very large number of BA World Cargo truck services in North America. It operates five times a week LEX-ORD. Here is an
66 747400sp : BoltBus is a joint venture by Greyhound and Peter Pan Bus Lines, but Greyhound owns a larger percentage of BoltBus.
67 milesrich :
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