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Air France Splits Widebody Order  
User currently offlinen1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 560 posts, RR: 17
Posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 35787 times:

A350-900 25 firm + 35 options - deliveries starting in 2018
787 25 firm + 23 options + 10 already leased from ILFC for KLM Deliveries starting in 2016

In order to compensate for the 10 787s leased by KLM, AF decided to bump up the number of A350 options so Boeing wouldn't be seen as "winning" this order - not my saying, it is in the French ( En augmentant le nombre d'Airbus commandés, Air France-KLM évite que Boeing puisse apparaître comme le gagnant de la commande.)

The CEO is on record saying the following about the political pressure to favor Airbus: "We listened to it, heard what was said, but I feel it really didn't influence our decision"

« Les pressions nous les avons écoutées, entendues mais je n'ai pas le sentiment qu'elles pèsent sur notre décision »

Les Echos says the A350s will replace the A340s and 777-200s, and the first 787s will replace KLMs MD-11s.

http://www.lesechos.fr/entreprises-s...-entre-boeing-et-airbus-219908.php

http://www.latribune.fr/journal/edit...m-commande-110-long-courriers.html

174 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5825 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 35746 times:

Neither source says which type of 787. 787-9s would be more appropriate as MD-11 replacements, but ILFC's orders are overwhelmingly for 787-8s.

The A359 is tailor-made for AF, IMO. As a nice bonus, this puts paid to all the yammering about AF being GE-only.


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4225 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 35734 times:

Quoting n1786b (Thread starter):
The CEO is on record saying the following about the political pressure to favor Airbus: "We listened to it, heard what was said, but I feel it really didn't influence our decision"

With such a vast 777 fleet, I dont think anyone can accuse AF of not buying the aircraft that best suits their needs.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinebreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1919 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 35680 times:

It will be interesting to see if the comments are as understanding as for the American Airlines order.

User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 35542 times:
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Quoting seabosdca (Reply 1):
As a nice bonus, this puts paid to all the yammering about AF being GE-only

That "ban" (if there ever was one) has now been broken.

Overall the number are no surprise to anyone. On the B787 order the break-up (if there is one) between B788 and B789 could be interesting. But I guess they might go for all B789's and no B788. Just my   


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 35450 times:

This order was for Airbus to lose, but the A358 is such a dog that there was no choice but to buy the 787 to replace the smaller aircraft at KLM. The GE powered A359 is a nice 772 replacement though.

AF will still likely go with the GE9X powered 77X later on, as the 77Ws will need replacing and the RR only A351 will have a tough fight.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 35444 times:

Quoting breiz (Reply 3):
It will be interesting to see if the comments are as understanding as for the American Airlines order.

How dare they! In a time when they should be supporting European workers, AF is stabbing us in the back...  

Only joking of course! Good order for both Airbus, Boeing and AF-KLM. This sets them up with a highly efficient long haul fleet for the foreseeable future.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21580 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 35243 times:

Quoting U2380 (Reply 6):
How dare they! In a time when they should be supporting European workers, AF is stabbing us in the back...  

I don't recall that being a talking point re: the AA order. It is, however, a major factor in the EU, and AF/KLM admitted as such. Every time AF chooses non-Airbus products, they lose political goodwill. And political goodwill is a valuable commodity. This is the main reason that all major flag carriers in the EU choose A320s. They planes are too similar to the 737NG to make it worth fighting over politically. KL was the only legacy holdout (maybe as political payback for Fokker being allowed to die by EU decision makers in favor of Airbus), but expect them to take the NEO as well now that AF is involved.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinefcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 882 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 35126 times:

Presumably, being larger, the cost of an A350 is greater than a B787 so the order isn't really equal...unless some discounting has been done to even it up!

User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4225 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 35068 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 7):
This is the main reason that all major flag carriers in the EU choose A320s. They planes are too similar to the 737NG to make it worth fighting over politically. KL was the only legacy holdout (maybe as political payback for Fokker being allowed to die by EU decision makers in favor of Airbus), but expect them to take the NEO as well now that AF is involved.

Maybe it's just a better aircraft that passengers prefer?



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 35021 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 7):
I don't recall that being a talking point re: the AA order.

There was defiantly a lot of: 'AA are traitors and are putting American workers out of jobs' or words to that effect.

Anyway, as I said I was joking. I don't agree with the EU/French Governments applying pressure on AF to buy Airbus, it's my belief that Airlines should buy the right aircraft for their needs.

As a side note however, members of congress in the US also apply similar pressures on US airlines. I'll try and find a link..

Edit- Unfortunately the only thing I could find to back myself up is this comment from Wikipedia

"A series of cables show how US diplomats and senior politicians intervene on behalf of Boeing to help boost the company's sales."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content...ates_diplomatic_cables_leak#Boeing

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/bu...ikileaks-boeing.html?_r=2&emc=eta1



[Edited 2011-09-15 14:27:26]

[Edited 2011-09-15 14:41:43]

[Edited 2011-09-15 14:45:47]

User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5825 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 35021 times:

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 8):
Presumably, being larger, the cost of an A350 is greater than a B787 so the order isn't really equal...unless some discounting has been done to even it up!

Then again, the 787 has 35 firm (counting the ILFC birds), while the A350 only has 25 firm. To me, that's a win for the 787.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2805 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 34992 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 5):
The GE powered A359 is a nice 772 replacement though.



Think you dreaming a bit or do you anticipate an announcement tomorrow of a GE participation in the 350 program?



Non French in France
User currently offlineredflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 34949 times:

And the A350-1000 is again left out in the cold...


My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 34912 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 7):
don't recall that being a talking point re: the AA order. It is, however, a major factor in the EU, and AF/KLM admitted as such. Every time AF chooses non-Airbus products, they lose political goodwill. And political goodwill is a valuable commodity. This is the main reason that all major flag carriers in the EU choose A320s. They planes are too similar to the 737NG to make it worth fighting over politically. KL was the only legacy holdout (maybe as political payback for Fokker being allowed to die by EU decision makers in favor of Airbus), but expect them to take the NEO as well now that AF is involved.

Though partly right,

I assume this happens in North America too. Beside AA, Virgin, Hawaiin, US Airways, Air Canada and JetBlue, no airlines order Airbus products (Delta got them from NW but I do not expect them to order Airbus planes). So United, Delta, Southwest, Allegiant, Alaska are the only Airbus operators. Airbus wide body operators in North America? Delta (they got them from NW), US, Hawaian and Air Canada. That's it..... How many long haul planes made by Boeing are flown by European airlines?? Many more than Airbus widebodies fly in North America. Subjectif!

The whole economy in the Netherlands relies on the US. If there will happen something annoying to the American economy the Dutch stock exchange plunges deeper than any other stock exchange. KLM will do like any other Dutch business: go the US first (because of the billateral agreements). Other countries rely more at neighbouring countries. Did you know that all the money that is earned within the Eurozone 80% is earned by 'domestic' trade? Like in the US, isn't it?

The A320 might be a good option if you operate with a hub and spoke system. They have a palletised underbelly which is very useful when you have transfering passengers. It also has more comfort than the B737NG and about the same legs as the B737NG. I think you must agree, don't you?


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13518 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 34909 times:
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Quoting seabosdca (Reply 1):
As a nice bonus, this puts paid to all the yammering about AF being GE-only.

Thus I wonder. GE could make an A358 or A359 engine, but not economically scale the GEnX core to the A350-1000.

  

Note: I'm only playing devil's advocate. I don't seem to be the only one with the opinion *not* to rule out GE

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 5):
The GE powered A359 is a nice 772 replacement though.

I would note, I'm not excited about the current A350-1000. Not at all; if I were more excited about the latest version of the A350-1000, I would rule out GE. I am excited about the A359 and there should be enough of a market here for GE. Until I see an official engine order, I will suspect GE is doing a 'dark horse' here.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineTigerguy From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 34664 times:

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 14):
Beside AA, Virgin, Hawaiin, US Airways, Air Canada and JetBlue, no airlines order Airbus products

Frontier and Spirit have sizeable Airbus fleets, and United has the A350 on order.

But back to AF/KL, they seem to have ordered the products that they feel will serve them in the best way going forward. I congratulate them on their order and wish them well!



Flying friendly for a while, but is that a widget I see in the rear-view mirror?
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31382 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 34672 times:
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So this order tracks as rumors had it in terms of firm orders, with a bump in options for the A350-900.



Quoting fcogafa (Reply 8):
Presumably, being larger, the cost of an A350 is greater than a B787 so the order isn't really equal...unless some discounting has been done to even it up!

Don't know if they did it for this order, but Airbus has at times tailored their RFP price with the A350XWB to match Boeing's RFP price on the 787 with mixed success at securing the business.

[Edited 2011-09-15 14:40:29]

User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5787 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 34590 times:

Quoting U2380 (Reply 10):
There was defiantly a lot of: 'AA are traitors and are putting American workers out of jobs' or words to that effect.

Define "a lot".   Two or three members don't make "a lot".

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 14):
I assume this happens in North America too. Beside AA, Virgin, Hawaiin, US Airways, Air Canada and JetBlue, no airlines order Airbus products (Delta got them from NW but I do not expect them to order Airbus planes).

Spirit? Frontier? As for United, they have plenty of Airbus planes in their fleet so to say "never" or "doesn't" would seem somewhat gratuitous. Ditto Delta.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 14):
So United, Delta, Southwest, Allegiant, Alaska are the only Airbus operators.

Not sure what this part was supposed to mean, as United and Delta are Airbus operators but the others aren't.

Maybe it'd be good to list the carriers that aren't Airbus operators in North America. While not definitive nor all-inclusive:

Alaska, Southwest, Allegiant, WestJet....probably a few of the Mexican carriers and some smaller US operators. The rest seem to order Airbus [too]. Discounting Delta would seem premature, whether you'd like to ignore NW or not. I fully expect them to order from both manufacturers moving forward.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 14):
Airbus wide body operators in North America? Delta (they got them from NW), US, Hawaian and Air Canada.

Maybe we can list the non-Airbus widebody operators in the US:

AA (had the A300 for many years), Aeromexico?...others?

The way I see it, the number of operators that eschew Airbus in North America is pretty small.

-Dave  



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineU2380 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2010, 325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 34341 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 18):
Define "a lot".   Two or three members don't make "a lot".

Maybe a slight exaggeration, but there was much discussion on the topic, with them two or three members reiterating their views more than once  

Back on topic. Where does this leave the AF long haul fleet once all their new orders are delivered?

A380
B777
B787
A350
A330? Or are the 787's there replacement?

Anything else I've missed?

[Edited 2011-09-15 15:04:13]

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7632 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 34212 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 18):
Maybe we can list the non-Airbus widebody operators in the US:

AA (had the A300 for many years), Aeromexico?...others?

Well, AM is a Mexican airline, not a U.S. ariline. And AM does not operate one single Airbus. It has an all-Boeing mainline fleet and an all-Embraer regional fleet.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3757 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 34062 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 2):
With such a vast 777 fleet, I dont think anyone can accuse AF of not buying the aircraft that best suits their needs.

You are right, AF has bought a large amout of Boeing planes.


User currently offlineebbuk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 33952 times:

My best friend (   ) Ikramerica may not have been at all polite, as is his prerogative, when he called the A350-800 " a dog". It is a concern that many are opting away from it. And no order from AF. Pity.

Equally worrying is the A350-1000. No new sales yet, nothing from AF. Though whether they need to replace their 77Ws just yet could be a factor.

As is typical with our French friends, they are patriotic when it suits. Glad it suited for them to get a few Airbus widebodies. Not a bad day. Could have been worse.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 33928 times:
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Quoting redflyer (Reply 13):
And the A350-1000 is again left out in the cold...

With the B77W's they have being so new, and they still have some on order, the A350-1000 was never going to be a part of this order.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 14):
The whole economy in the Netherlands relies on the US

What happens in Germany is even more important to the Dutch economy, but the Dutch-US ties are indeed also very important to our economy.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5825 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 33828 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
I would note, I'm not excited about the current A350-1000.

Curious why... do you think it's poorly conceived (not enough benefit compared to the 77W or future 777 derivatives), or do you think it's going to be difficult or impossible to execute as planned?

Quoting U2380 (Reply 19):
Back on topic. Where does this leave the AF long haul fleet once all their new orders are delivered?

AF: 788, 359, 77W, 388
KL: 788, 333, 789 (?), 77W

Not sure how long the 332s will stick around at either airline; they could well also remain in the fleet.

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 22):
My best friend ( ) Ikramerica may not have been at all polite, as is his prerogative, when he called the A350-800 " a dog"

It is a dog, and I don't think I'm being that rude by saying it. It's heavier than the 789, with significantly less cargo capacity, less passenger capacity (assuming 9Y), and only a bit more range. Its only advantage over the 789 is in ULH ops, or for an operator that has a large number of 359s and needs only a few smaller widebodies.

But the 35J seems to me like it should be much better. I'm sort of mystified by the low sales.


25 EPA001 : I believe they will come in time as soon as the specs are finally firmed up. With an EIS in 2017 and the first two production years sold out, there i
26 Post contains images PlymSpotter : If true, this will mean the last MD-11s are not retired until the 2017/2018 mark. However I was more under the impression that the A330-300s would be
27 Post contains images scbriml : I disagree. There were plenty (including Boeing themselves) who expected the 787 to take the lion's share of this order. No word from either OEM, so
28 cosmofly : It is becoming boring that airliners are always splitting the order. So there is no more direct competitions and airliners always find the best model
29 flymia : There was not much. It was more Boeing sucked at their job and blew it big time. It was embarassing to US Aviation that Boeing messed this up so much
30 Post contains images lightsaber : I think it is the horse by commitee. It doesn't serve any one airline particularly well. The 'break' in engine commonality isn't horrid (a la 77W), b
31 notaxonrotax : Really, a dog?? You are a registered fan-boy, but you don't have to show it in every post. KLM had their mind set on the 787 before your so-called "d
32 QFA787380 : Is it known when the non-leased 787s will EIS? I'm surprised they didn't get 359 slots before 2018, as I would have thought AF would have been able to
33 Stitch : Perhaps not a "dog", but some A350-800 customers have cancelled (Bangkok Air this week), others have converted some or all of their A350-800 orders t
34 gigneil : Are you being sarcastic? Most of the major North American operators fly Airbus types. NS
35 Viscount724 : US Airways operates more Airbus aircraft than any other airline in the world.
36 Post contains images EPA001 : Especially since KLM already signed up for the later cancelled RBS lease deal on B787's. I guess after that Boeing had more to loose here then Airbus
37 col : Well done to Airbus and Boeing, these frames will make up for the cancellations this year. Will be interesting to see what Airbus do with the 358, cou
38 RayChuang : I don't think AF will order the A350-1000, mostly because of their substantial 777-300ER fleet. The A350-900's will primarily be used on AF's routes t
39 Post contains images fxramper : This isn't a surprise and it makes me think they did this to lure VS into Skyteam.
40 dfambro : A different way to look at this is EU vs NA sales questions is to see how many widebodies Airbus has sold to customers on each continent, which Airbu
41 ghifty : I'd imagine they'd be more "understanding" considering that KLM is consistently a Boeing customer..
42 flymia : Exactly, there is none.
43 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : It's always the two or three that get the rest of us labeled. Yes, I meant to type North American. Is it possible to be impolite to an inanimate obje
44 astuteman : You must hate the 773ER if the A350-1000's range is your gripe..... ??? How many justify 17+ 777 sub-fleets? And if most of the commonality with the
45 abibus : Airbus Loose Not boeing Airbus had a Lot of political help and was confidence that they would get at least 65% or more from this deal... so Airbus is
46 flyingAY : Do you really think that politics do not have any role in a business where billions of dollars are moving? I don't think the American politicians wou
47 col : Wow, a manufacturer selling a chunk of its new products is a loser! Same can be said for those saying it was Boeings to lose, total BS. The winner is
48 Post contains links GBan : You are right regarding airlines - they should and do care about making money and being safe. That doesn't mean that politicians wouldn't try to take
49 Burkhard : The big influence of politics on airline purchases is an a.net myth nowadays. If the public pressure had any effect, it was the increase of options (
50 AF Cabin Crew : Ia Orana All ! As per the AFKL corporate website, It will be the 787-9 and the A350-900. The 787 will go to KLM in 2016 and the A350 will start servic
51 SASMD82 : I do not include lease companies such as ILFC and Gecas because they do not operate these aircraft. This is like including army planes and privately
52 Post contains images N14AZ : I cannot talk for France, the Netherlands, UK and so on but in Germany it's definitely not a major factor. Maybe it looks like this from thousands of
53 r2rho : Split orders are the tendency of the future, and we will see many more of this, as airlines have become larger via mergers (changing the economies of
54 N14AZ : Sorry that I am not too familiar with the numbers - how can you replace MD 11s with 787s in terms of capacity?
55 Post contains images SASMD82 : I was wondering this too.... Oh no!!! A 3-3-3- configuration comes in my mind!!! [Edited 2011-09-16 01:05:36]
56 Post contains links PM : http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/r...y-story.aspx?cid=171&newsid=220518 Confirmation that the A350s will have RR.
57 Post contains links and images bralo20 : According to "luchtvaartnieuws.nl", mostly a well informed aviation newssite the order is for the 787-9. Impression of the A359 in AF/KL colors...
58 Post contains links and images PM : http://www.klm.com/corporate/en/news...s/archive-2011/order_aircraft.html "Consistent with the provisional fleet plan, this order will result in the G
59 bralo20 : The order (according to luchtvaartnieuws.nl): Firm: 25 Boeing 787-9 25 Airbus 350-900 Options: 35 Airbus 350-xxx 25 Boeing 787-x Nothing about leasing
60 N14AZ : Thanks for the pictures, the AF titles are a little bit too large, aren't they?
61 Post contains images bralo20 : Airbus made those so I guess it should be OK
62 bralo20 : Hmm... There's something strange... They are talking about an order of 110 planes (50 firm / 60 options) however a bit further in the press release th
63 JoeCanuck : That is one heck of an order. It will be interesting to see how they decide the routes for the two aircraft types. It seems that aircraft efficiency t
64 Post contains links and images bralo20 : Airbus A350 &Boeing 787 from the Air France site:
65 Post contains images Chiad : Airbus is quickly moving towards 1500 net orders for 2011. It is however possible that if all pending commitments went firm (maybe a long shot), we c
66 col : For SQ around 20.
67 Post contains images astuteman : What's really interesting is that, despite all of the "the 787-9 can/can't do what the A350-900 can/can't do" discussions that we have on here, ANOTH
68 Post contains images col : Can certainly agree with this one!!
69 kl911 : KLM has always been Boeing, except for a few A310's and now the A330, so the 787 going to KLM doesnt surprise me, but personally i would have prefered
70 Autothrust : Just a question: The A350-1000 was praised by EK and others as a 777 killler, now it seems the A50-800 and A350-1000 will be dogs? What has Airbus mad
71 bjorn14 : I wonder if any of these will be the 'R' version which would give it a range of 10000+nm.
72 Post contains images EPA001 : Yes, KLM is special. But they are very happy with the A330's they are operating, and they have ordered some more. Which also makes this order interes
73 seabosdca : The 787-9 in 9Y should be a near-exact replacement for the MD-11. No one is criticizing the A350-900, which should be a superb aircraft and has kille
74 Post contains images EPA001 : That will happen at a later stage. See the press releases. .
75 zeke : The standard contract for the A350 that was signed by other airlines has the option for the airline to swap between models. I would not be reading mu
76 Post contains links and images scbriml : Difficult to see that in all honesty. If anyone is going to lose, it could, shock-horror, be GE! AF is making a big play for maintaining RR engines a
77 Amsterdam : All good and nice. But Air France has got more important matters to work on. Like getting it's costs down significantly and making money. If they want
78 Baroque : Well that should be true but esp if yr toast was burned this morning and the coffee cold: Is enough to make you wonder if you missed a whole new engi
79 ferpe : Finally this "armchair airline chief" myth could go where it belongs, down the wastebasket. Airlines are professional companies operating in a cut-tr
80 Post contains images Baroque : AF a Roller domain. What next? Things do change. At one time, it would never have been supposed that the QF 330s would be GE country. So maybe QF Roll
81 columba : I wonder how long it will take until LH will place an order for the 787/A350 slots are getting rare
82 Post contains images Ychocky : Can we have the thread title changed to indicate AF/KL. Might cause another topic for KL. Just a thought. Looking forward to KL671 on a 787
83 airbazar : Oh puh-leeeze. I know you know better than this. The A320 was launched a good 10 years earlier than the 737NG. That is why so many carriers in Europe
84 Post contains images mffoda : We also do this with fruits and veggies... I still can't tell the difference??
85 trex8 : OEM statements Air France-KLM to Acquire Up to 60 A350 XWBs (Source: Airbus; issued Sept. 16, 2011) BLAGNAC --- The Air France-KLM Group has announced
86 Post contains images trex8 : Everyone knows the only reason any non EU carrier buys Airbus is because they were bribed and EU carriers are all instructed by their governments to
87 OzGlobal : What is this supposed to mean? 1/ They buy Boeing for business reasons, but Airbus for political reasons? 2/ When they buy Airbus they are patriotic?
88 ebbuk : [quote=OzGlobal,reply=87]So how do you interpret BA purchasing decisions? All just good honest business, I suppose? An utter disgrace mon ami. They ma
89 Post contains images par13del : Well, maybe the Tea Party and the Republicans are on to something about Obama, because when AA placed their massive Airbus Order, I did not hear any
90 Post contains images SASMD82 : What about the US airforce order of 154 (was it?) A330s that was cancelled in favour of the old-fashioned B767?
91 UALWN : Given the fat salaries the eurocrats enjoy for doing next to nothing, that would actually be an enticement!
92 flymia : I agree 100% pressure does exist. I just do not think to the extent it does in some EU countries like France and the qoutes from the statement in the
93 Post contains images Baroque : Well, plus ca change, but unless trex8 is off his game (could not be!!!!) it looks as if you had best report RR for misleading press releases. That w
94 YULWinterSkies : I understand the criticism and skepticism of some French people and politicians about AF 'betraying' Airbus, yet, there are several reasons why this i
95 UALWN : I fully agree. However, isn't it true that three American airlines (AA, DL, CO) signed exclusivity agreements with Boeing not so long ago? That was n
96 lexer : Dude, airlines certainly have a larger national symbolism, and with it emotions. But Holland is pragmatic enough to assess its capacities and size ra
97 UALWN : I guess you think the right attitude is to restrict foreign ownership of airlines to 25% as the US of A does? Kudos to the Dutch for their courage an
98 LJ : Wow, last thing I looked the most important trading partner was Germany, what's happened? Maybe following that logic KL should have bought Airbus onl
99 notaxonrotax : Great idea, to generalize all the users from 1 country. Let me see, here's one: "Could all American users please please please step over the fact tha
100 fpetrutiu : Unless they pan service from AMS to Midway islands, don't think they really need them.
101 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Prove it with some links, etc. 1)What's so "astonishing"? 2)Who's to say GE won't get orders for the B787? -Its only people like you who believe in s
102 SASMD82 : Correct, probably followed by France, Belgium and North Europe. What I was trying to say is that from all the nations within the EU, the Netherlands
103 airproxx : Funny to read you, having that in first place: If we follow your logic, AF/KL shouldn't worry at all about having Boeing seen as a "winner" in this o
104 airproxx : Don't blame him for being that bitter, as a french fellow, I really do understand his frustration. I'm still wondering how long AF board will remain
105 Stitch : Good god people, can't we just celebrate the fact that both OEMs landed a nice order and not speculate and pontificate on why we think they placed a n
106 Post contains images Viscount724 : Always ignored RR? You are forgetting the Viscount and Caravelle.
107 ukoverlander : Oh dear.......here we go again.
108 Post contains images scbriml : I'm sure you read all the previous threads. Lots of opinions that the order was more likely to be all Boeing than all Airbus. McNerny was also very c
109 redtag501 : Anymore it seems that nationalistic favoritism toward the purchase of American or European airliners is somewhat moot when considering that components
110 Post contains links and images N14AZ : Funny, seems as if Boeing knew how the discussion would end here on a.net. So as a mitigation measure they integrated the following text into their p
111 Jacobin777 : Comments such as this: Only a few people here on A.net perpetuate such things and they are called out on it. I like the way you capitalize the word "
112 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Good to see that my earlier "predictions" became true. My contacts have been proven right with this order. Nice order for both manufacturers and who c
113 Post contains images EPA001 : No, but If I recall correctly many analysts thought Boeing was going to get the lions share here, obviously based on information they gathered, inclu
114 RoseFlyer : Great to see them come out with an order. It keeps showing that Airbus positioned the A350 in a different segment than the 787 so that they don't line
115 Post contains images kl911 : Yes, ask Iran how happy they are with that.
116 Post contains images scbriml : There's certainly more than a few and calling them out is exactly what I was doing. But hey, if that's not how you see it, I can get over it. I didn'
117 Baroque : Funny how nobody seems to advertise "Buy our products to test how our sanctions will hit you". Odd that! Wonder how long it will be, before some cont
118 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I don't recall. Perhaps you can point it out. If anything, common sense was dictating this was going to be a split order of some sort. What's this th
119 mffoda : Great idea! What brand? Its been a year since I've been to Beer Mecca (Berchtesgaden)...
120 Post contains images legoguy : A quick search on Yahoo of McNerny + Air France brings up a whole number of links stating that Boeing (according to McNerny) was confident of Air Fra
121 Post contains images N14AZ : I changed my mind and opened a bottle of wine. Thanks for the feedback, I wasn't aware of this.
122 flyorski : The link you provided is about US congress members applying pressure to foreign (middle east) airlines. If it was found out that a senator or congres
123 Amsterdam : I'm talking facts. Air France needs to take action. And fast.
124 SASMD82 : It is like a threat? AF is 3 or 4 times bigger than KLM so why is it a threat? KLM didn't really grow (in terms of number of aircraft) since the 90s,
125 flymia : Yea but US passenger airlines dont want the 748 either. Besides for a handfull at DL and another at UA there are not many 747's flying around the US
126 Amsterdam : No, not true. Ratio KLM:AF is 1:2. And about KLM not growing: doesn't KLM have hundreds of pilots more since the 90's? Aren't they flying? By the way
127 Eagleboy : Dammit! beaten to the punchline!! You forgot to use the word 'traitors' though!
128 Post contains images ferpe : I don't get what you mean here, the 350-1000N has definitely better then 7200nm range, spec range is 8500nm. At 7200nm you haul 33t of Pax+bags and a
129 Baroque : How does the current 77W compare with that at EIS or a few years before EIS. That might give an idea where 35J might be by say 2020 - or not of cours
130 UALWN : It was a legally binding agreement until the European competition authorities forced Boeing to rescind it as a condition to approve the Boeing-McDonn
131 Post contains images ferpe : Here is a payload-range diagram that contains the 789, 358 and 359. While none has fully published data it is based on what is published + latest A.ne
132 Stitch : The 77W has gained about 250-300nm of range at MZFW over the last few years and I believe a bit more is on the way.
133 Post contains links flyingAY : I suggest you have a look at the thread from not so many years back: Possiblity Of AA Buying A320 (by AAden Jul 6 2006 in Civil Aviation) There are s
134 Aquila3 : And that is going to happen again for the next 10 years with the NEO. With this I am not saying that because of commercial issues (price, production
135 Post contains images par13del : Which had nothing to do with the legally binding contract for preferred slots and price matching which the EU did nothing about, and which is still i
136 RubberJungle : The most interesting aspect of the whole thing, at least to me, is the complete absence of an Air France quote in the Airbus press release - a result
137 Post contains links scbriml : It's not really an 'agreement', it's a legally binding contract through which AA has just purchased 100 737NGs and is committed to buying 100 737MAX.
138 JerseyFlyer : So on a simplistic "commonality" argument they should also select RR for the 759s!!!
139 RubberJungle : Yes, the "glider" option isn't very popular.
140 Post contains images EPA001 : 759? That is a new one. .
141 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : There is a Bloomberg article on what you are stating. I don't know what his version of "significant portion" means however. Sounds a bit vague to me.
142 bmacleod : I know the end is near for the passenger MD-11 but I'm sure going to miss it despite never having flown on it....
143 YTZ : A hypothetical.... Would it make sense for KL to send all its 332s and 333s to AF and replace all those aircraft with 789s? Use leased aircraft for gr
144 Post contains links Chiad : Flight Global reports the deal as well. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...take-up-to-110-a350s-and-787s.html Quote: Air France-KLM says that its
145 UALWN : I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say here, but I do know what I was trying to say: not so long ago there existed a legally binding agreement
146 par13del : Without derailing the thread, that agreement went away in 1997 as you have already stated it was a condition of the EU approval of the merger between
147 UALWN : Exactly, so it was in force not so long ago, as I stated. Equivalence? How can those two things be equivalent? Again: it was a legally binging agreem
148 par13del : I'll leave the rest alone as it is going off course, but I'll ask this question again, how did this affect Airbus in the USA?
149 UALWN : For a number of years Airbus didn't have the chance to compete for any order from AA (at the time the largest airline in the world), CO, and DL (at t
150 par13del : Well I would disagree and the numbers may prove me correct, the largest operators of Airbus and Boeing a/c are not legacy carriers, tying up some of
151 Post contains images frigatebird : Fully agreed I've been away a few days and was pleasantly surprised to see the official announcement of this big news. However, about 3/4 of this thr
152 UALWN : Really? You mean like WN? AS? U2? FR? All those had 737s before any LCC had any 32Xs. The fact is that not being able (by law) to bid on AA, CO, DL c
153 Stitch : Ironically, it was Airbus that started this when they entered into an agreement with US Airways for up to 400 A320 aircraft. Seeing the amazing deal
154 UALWN : But that was not an exclusivity agreement, signed as such. It was a mutually beneficial deal, in which US got much-needed financing and Airbus got a
155 par13del : Since the A350-1000 has been delayed to match and in some instances exceed the capabilities of the 777W, it is probably in Boeing best interest to en
156 PlanesNTrains : I'm not sure why we are even in this debate, but I think Stitch said one interesting thing: The carriers - CO, DL, AA - went to Boeing and said "Do t
157 Stitch : It became a de facto one, as US has never ordered a Boeing plane since. And that contract may have been amended to ensure that US always received the
158 par13del : So the negative is that the agreement (contract between two parties enfoceable by law) which went away in 1997 has prevented Airbus from becoming the
159 UALWN : Well, WN has never ordered Airbus. Do they have an exclusivity agreement with Boeing? I don't know. Does B6 have one with Airbus? I don't know. But I
160 polot : Key word is "had" though. It was struck down over 10 years ago. A "gentleman's agreement" is non enforceable, nothing has been stopping Airbus from o
161 UALWN : Of course. I was only talking about the period when the exclusivity clause was in force. All I'm saying is that, however short or long it was, it can
162 cmf : There was never any law stipulating that. It was in a contract between companies. No government was asked to stipulate a law. One can argue, I think
163 OzGlobal : I don't think you do, because there isn't any criticism among "French people" (maybe a few politicians, but that's their job). No one cares about nat
164 UALWN : You're right, of course. What I meant was that there was a legally biding agreement between Boeing and those three airlines that prevented Airbus fro
165 Post contains images par13del : If that were true how do you explain the number of Airbus a/c flying around in the US, obviously those who actually purchase the a/c are not resident
166 poLOT : To be honest no one cares about where airlines order airplanes from in the US either. It just seems like that because only people in a.net actually c
167 Baroque : To this observer the number of protests about Airbus purchases in the US exceeds that about B purchases in Europe. Until quite recently, the joke was
168 Post contains images trex8 : I always thought it was Bloody Awful,it was better when BA was BOAC, Better On A Camel
169 Baroque : Yes, there was that thought, and only for the record, there was also "our own BO Airways Corporation" assuming BO translates to USEnglish! That from
170 col : BA has changed names many times. Recently it was Bags Anywhere.
171 fpetrutiu : Small example, but Tarom HAD TO purchase 4 A318's that nobody wanted because of the EU adherence and trade agreement between Romania and France. They
172 UALWN : They had to? Any source for that? Any source for this?
173 Post contains links fpetrutiu : Tarom (Romania) To Buy 4 Airbus A318s: US$219.6M (by Singapore_Air Nov 20 2003 in Civil Aviation) Have fun. Oh, as far as the other one, I remember it
174 UALWN : That thread sure makes for fun reading. Pity there's no shred of evidence about the deal having anything to do with the EU negotiations. As for the 3
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