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Cargolux To Not Take Delivery Of 747-8F On Monday  
User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2017 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 48837 times:

More to come from Flightglobal....


My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
259 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 32185 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 48785 times:
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Maybe they don't have a crew ready to fly her out.

User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4887 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 48764 times:

Any indication why? The aircraft was just certified by EASA & FAA, can hardly be a problem with the plane itself, can it?

User currently offlineSHAQ From Panama, joined Jun 2007, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 48745 times:

OMG , I hope this turns to be false or something  

Studying hard, for flying right!
User currently offlinegolfradio From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 868 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 48764 times:

Quoting racko (Reply 2):
can hardly be a problem with the plane itself, can it?

Article says Cargolux informed Boeing and not the other way around. Highly unlikely that it has anything to do with the plane or Boeing.

User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2941 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 48650 times:

Boeing's webpage still shows the delivery on Monday: http://www.boeing.com/

Curious what's going on.

User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 48659 times:


A "Contractual tussle"..

Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlinergreenftm From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 308 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 48573 times:

Just confirmed by Boeing on their twitter feed.


User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4887 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 48552 times:

So Cargolux wants a bigger rebate because the 747-8 doesn't meet the promised performance specifications.

User currently offlineSHAQ From Panama, joined Jun 2007, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 48378 times:

What I don't understand is , why they fight this , just a couple of days before delivery?
Can someone enlighten me?

Studying hard, for flying right!
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2941 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 48377 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 5):
Boeing's webpage still shows the delivery on Monday: http://www.boeing.com/

... and now they removed the announcement from their webpage. Oooops. Not nice.

User currently offlineblueflyer From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Jan 2006, 4427 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 48185 times:
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Damn. And they were crying for the aircraft too, what with the market recovering at a higher pace than they expected! Must be quite serious if they're willing to delay delivery of an aircraft they want pretty badly.

Poetic Justice: New England cheaters buried in snow
User currently onlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2806 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 48182 times:

Quoting racko (Reply 8):
So Cargolux wants a bigger rebate because the 747-8 doesn't meet the promised performance specifications.

Now does it actually say that somewhere, or is that your wishful thinking aloud?

View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5847 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 48145 times:

Quoting racko (Reply 8):
So Cargolux wants a bigger rebate because the 747-8 doesn't meet the promised performance specifications.

No one know what the issue is and we shouldn't start spreading rumors here with out any solid information to back it up.

That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineblueflyer From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Jan 2006, 4427 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 48104 times:
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Quoting KPDX (Reply 12):
Now does it actually say that somewhere

The article states the issue is (apparently) over contractual performance. Obviously Boeing and GE would deliver on these if they could, and since they can't, compensation is warranted. Assuming the disagreement is over the amount of these compensations isn't a huge leap of faith.

[Edited 2011-09-16 13:40:16]

Poetic Justice: New England cheaters buried in snow
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2941 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 48070 times:

Quoting KPDX (Reply 12):
Now does it actually say that somewhere, or is that your wishful thinking aloud?

It's in the link provided by BrouAviation above:

The Cargolux row is understood to centre on the 747-8F's non-compliance with contractual guarantees, suggesting that it is connected in some way to the performance issues.

User currently offlineRubberJungle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 47767 times:

All this just after the first board meeting since Akbar Al Baker joined the board of Cargolux, following completion of the Qatar Airways share acquisition this week. Doesn't sound like a coincidence.

User currently onlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2806 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 47643 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 15):

I see. Thanks!

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 16):
All this just after the first board meeting since Akbar Al Baker joined the board of Cargolux, following completion of the Qatar Airways share acquisition this week. Doesn't sound like a coincidence.

I can see it already.  rotfl   Wink

[Edited 2011-09-16 14:13:09]

View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineAirlineReporter From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 47619 times:

It seems like Cargolux might have felt they had the upper hand and asked for some things from Boeing, that Boeing wasn't willing to give.

Now, all this media who was coming to Seattle to cover the delivery (FINALLY) of Boeing's new aircraft will write stories on how it is delayed again.

Doesn't help Boeing sell their 747-8I to customers either. Airlines want to rest assured that Boeing is willing to work with them.

Even though an email has been sent by Boeing saying all the media events have been cancelled, still no official press release from either company -- yet.


User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 47449 times:

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 16):
All this just after the first board meeting since Akbar Al Baker joined the board of Cargolux, following completion of the Qatar Airways share acquisition this week. Doesn't sound like a coincidence.

I had similar thoughts... That is gonna be a much louder board room  

harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5847 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 47309 times:

Quoting RubberJungle (Reply 16):
All this just after the first board meeting since Akbar Al Baker joined the board of Cargolux, following completion of the Qatar Airways share acquisition this week. Doesn't sound like a coincidence.

Very good point. I was wondering why all of a sudden after months of waiting that issues are cropping up now? You just provided the answer.

That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinemffoda From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 47099 times:


I guess Randy has not got the Memo yet? Or he knows more then us...

harder than woodpecker lips...
User currently offlinejreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 46989 times:

Randy's info was posted 3 days ago. ERRR yesterday. So this must have been quick! (text was small and looked like the 13th  Smile )

[Edited 2011-09-16 15:12:47]

User currently offlineAirlineReporter From United States of America, joined Jun 2010, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 46944 times:

Glenn Farley with Seattle's local KING5 NBC station just Tweeted, "Sounds to me like a paperwork issue with legal language, and not some issue with airframe."


Interesting. Even if it has nothing to do with the airframe, a paperwork issues 3 days before delivery? I am having a really hard time picturing how Boeing doesn't come off looking really bad in this one.


User currently offlineblueflyer From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Jan 2006, 4427 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks ago) and read 46760 times:
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You don't pull your crew from Seattle three days before delivery just for a paperwork issue. You pull it to send a message...

Poetic Justice: New England cheaters buried in snow
25 Post contains images mffoda : That's funny, they have a time tag form yesterday (15th) on their website? Even though it wasn't updated until today... I'm going to have to change m
26 Post contains links AirlineReporter : Randy just posted a new blog talking about the delay: http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archive.../747-8f_first_delivery_update.html "Just yesterday, I was
27 Post contains images mdword1959 : Do the tails of these "wallflowers" get painted white now?
28 cosmofly : This sounds like a VERY nasty development, with Cargolux pulling its personnel from Boeing. I wonder how much off spec is the 748. Boeing is definitel
29 mattcawby : Yes, and you were one of "all this media" to trumpet the news
30 packsonflight : There are some rumors that the boss of Cargolux is quitting at the end of the year.
31 mercure1 : I believe its mainly due to the GENx engine missing initial spec, but I'm sure it can be resolved w/ a PIP package, eventually. Perhaps Cargolux want
32 Stitch : Except it isn't delayed. Cargolux must have a not-insignificant investment in this airframe between deposits and progress payments, so I expect this
33 Post contains images mffoda : Now Stitch... try not to pollute this issue with facts!
34 tdscanuck : Contractual performance is *not* the same thing as aircraft performance. The contract may say Boeing is supposed to provide, say, the spares provisio
35 Post contains links B777LRF : As per the latest article on FG http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...747-8f-delivery-over-contract.html It sounds as if it there may be some very se
36 Stitch : All of these performance issues have been known for weeks, if not months. It's not like CV just found this out today when Boeing slipped them an envel
37 cosmofly : Typically, in any major deal, lawyers would have walked through every single items and words on a contract and would have highlighted concerns to com
38 SPQR : If the 748F delivery gets held up more than a few days the 787 will be out the door first...
39 NYC777 : Look CArgolux has also been touting the impending delivery of the 748F on their web site so it might that U-Turn Al has decided to thorw in some sort
40 rj777 : If that happens, that'll be a BIG boost for the 787!
41 mham001 : You read a lot more into that article than it actually said.
42 mercure1 : All estimates point to about a 4% shortfall in original SFC estimates. That only puts the 747-8F about 6% more efficient in burn, compared to the 747
43 MillwallSean : Cargolux has been working with Boeing for years on this plane.They have taken the two year delay on their chin not screaming in media or publicly thre
44 JBirdAV8r : Oh sure you do. It's playing hardball by manipulating company morale and public opinion. This is hardly unprecedented in business.
45 tdscanuck : The GEnX is almost 6 years old...to be on PIP2 isn't that big a deal. This engine got a long head start on the 787 program. The article makes NO conn
46 AirlineCritic : That was my thought too. Al Baker earning his paycheck, by blackmailing Boeing to give concessions or some financial advantage to Cargolux? At this p
47 JoeCanuck : Something stinks about this whole thing. Cargolux would have known every issue regarding the plane and contracts long ago and were in the loop during
48 BoeingVista : But we don't know how big these issues are do we, the aircraft must be quite a way off of the mark for Cargolux to throw a hissy fit this close to th
49 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Well, yes. They might knew the performance or delayment issues regarding the plane and they probably were negotiating with Boeing to get compensated
50 mdword1959 : One does wonder whether Mr. Al-Baker is somehow driving this ostensibly strange turn of events, he does have a reputation for seemingly quixotic behav
51 aviasian : And when is he not angry about something? Does anyone know when the first delivery to Cathay Pacific Cargo is? If the Cargolux delivery delay is drag
52 Post contains images LifelinerOne : Am I the only one here thinking that this whole thing doen't have anything to do with Al-Baker...? There's no official source claiming that he is pus
53 Babybus : I don't really understand what the problem is, or does anyone else on here, but if I were Boeing I would give Cargolux whatever it is they are looking
54 RubberJungle : Cargolux's chief financial officer, David Arendt, is leaving and the company also has a new chairman, Albert Wildgen, as of yesterday.
55 zeke : As far as I am aware the 748 has not met it's contractural range or performance for some time, this was supposed to be fixed with yet another mtow in
56 mdword1959 : We're merely trying to understand this bizarre turn of events...it seems only natural to wonder whether the quixotic Mr. Al-Baker might have somethin
57 airbazar : Because it's during delivery that the customer pays up. Negotiations may have dragged longer than expected. Korean and Cathay may have already reache
58 airlineaddict : Everyone is focused on performance issues, but could it be financing of the deal? With all the recent financial news about dollar loans from central b
59 wouwout : You don't just pull out of a launch event, it's a big event for Cargolux as well. Lots of exposure, invaluable marketing opportunities for Cargolux. A
60 JoeCanuck : The only thing that makes any sense to me is that it has something to do with compensation...and even that could have been dealt with post ceremony. T
61 Post contains images LifelinerOne : I disagree. Qatar Airways has a stake of 33% in Cargolux, with one seat on the board for them. They don't have the majority of vote. We are giving Al
62 BoeingVista : So delay taking the aircraft, but it seems a little extreme to withdraw your staff from the factory if its only about compensation. You'd hope so but
63 JoeCanuck : They've had people in Seattle for the certification process...I don't know how Boeing would have been able to hide anything and even if they tried to
64 ck8msp : Boeing stock was only down .08 after hours which is a surprise as this news broke before the close of AH trading. Normally with any hint whatsoever of
65 Post contains images scbriml : Owning 1/3 of a company would normally give you a pretty big say in most matters.
66 JoeCanuck : Actually it's 35% making them the second largest shareholder after Luxair who own 43.4%.
67 ikramerica : This is not the first delay to this delivery. Remember, it was pushed back from 2 weeks ago. We assumed there was a technical reason for it, but maybe
68 tdscanuck : There is zero evidence anywhere that this has anything to do with the aircraft. You do if you don't have a choice...if there is a legal reason they s
69 blueflyer : It happens all the time that two entities (companies, buyer and seller, etc...) plan an end-game for their negotiations thinking they'll be able to s
70 Post contains links and images Stitch : Maybe they hired Air France Cargo's people to determine performance. They evidently didn't understand that the inside of a 777 freighter is of differ
71 BoeingVista : You keep on saying its not a performance issue but where is your evidence for that. It could easily be a performance issue, not saying that it is but
72 AR385 : Did AA took delivery of the MD-11 knowing how badly it would end up performing in their network? At least during the beginning. It made SQ cancel its
73 Stitch : Where is your evidence it is? Yes, we know the plane is not perfect, but we - and CV - have known this for months. CV also know those fixes cannot be
74 Post contains images copa330200 : this is not only one specific issue, it's more likely a lot of small details/issues not solved yet so CV decided to make this call. We are talking ab
75 blueflyer : Cargolux's public announcement has been far more terse and less optimistic than Boeing. No language whatsoever about hoping to resolve the issue quick
76 Navion : Good Lord, the life these topics take on is unbelievable. Cargolux is going to take the aircraft eventually, likely sooner rather than later and whate
77 Post contains images Stitch : Fair enough. At least Boeing will make some additional money charging CV for parking fees.
78 bluebus : Not the end of the world, but this does not look good from a PR perspective. If I was an airline with a 747-8 order or thinking about getting one, th
79 Stitch : Why? One would hope your staff paid attention to Boeing's technical briefings and trust your computer models and analysts you're paying good money fo
80 bluebus : If this was a standard delivery, I would agree with you. As I am sure you already know the 747-8 is already two years late. Not to mention the 787 be
81 kanban : The Seattle Times notes that the Cargolux board voted not to accept the first two aircraft, no reason given.. Nothing was said about accepting the bal
82 Stitch : The cargo divisions of CX and KE have not made any public statements about rejecting their imminent deliveries and I am sure the media has been calli
83 metalinyoni : Is there any precedent where an airline has refused to take delivery of an aircraft this close to delivery - is this common and this is only an issue
84 Post contains links and images mffoda : "Cargolux could seek capacity elsewhere after 747-8F rejection" http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...pacity-elsewhere-after-747-8f.html Cargolux sai
85 Post contains images Stitch : Unless they want to just throw away hundreds of millions of dollars already paid to Boeing, I would imagine they are going to have to take them event
86 airbazar : If the reason for their pullout is because Boeing couldn't meet their contractual agreements, then I'd thing that Boeing would have to reinburse the
87 Stitch : At this late stage, it could be that CV is the one in breach of contract by not taking delivery.
88 Post contains images Part147 : And equally, it could be Boeing if they aren't 'delivering' the product described in the contract![Edited 2011-09-17 13:46:16]
89 Post contains images Stitch : But CV knows that already so right back at you. Their CEO admitted as much on 2 September when he said "we hit a few bumps on the journey from order
90 GARUDAROD : The last line of the article states they just formed a new board of Directors in regards to Qatar Airways 35% purchase. Hummm, where is my slide rule
91 airbazar : Knowing about it doesn't mean they accept it. Hence why they're still negotiating a deal. Well, at least that's what I think they're doing.
92 Babybus : Got any more examples of this? I can't think of any. Any airline is going to pretend that everything is alright with the thing they've just got deliv
93 Stitch : Then why agree to a ceremony? Let us not forget the plan was to hand these planes over on the 5th and the 7th. So three days before the original deli
94 blueflyer : Isn't the third aircraft due for delivery in October? If so, Cargolux would have to send some of its people back to Seattle soon enough anyway. If wha
95 earlyNFF : are these the ex LoadAir birds ntu? where else are they?
96 bottie : Still at KMZJ
97 airbazar : I don't get why people are so hang up on the topic of "pulling the staff out of Seattle". The aircraft are not getting delivered. What alternative oth
98 BoeingVista : I would seriously doubt that with all the known issues with the 747-8F and all the lawyers involved Cargolux would have gotten itself in a position w
99 MillwallSean : Maybe, but it's not just A.net. Every international press release speculates about performance related issues and the experts bloomberg and reuters d
100 JoeCanuck : Pulling out of Seattle is a sign that Cargolux does not expect this to be resolved quickly. Again...this was known earlier in the month when they wer
101 Post contains images cmf : Knowing the problem is the easy part. Agreeing on how to handle them so all parties are happy tends to be a bit harder. I'm sure there has been a lot
102 474218 : Since all this happened after a BOD meeting and the people on site seem to be as blind sided as everyone on a.net, it could be that Cargolux has some
103 Stitch : They evidently have financing in place with JP Morgan, backed by the US Import-Export Bank. So cash doesn't seem to be the issue, even though it has
104 tdscanuck : 1) I have never said it's not a performance issue. I said there's no evidence for it being a performance issue. 2) You can't prove a negative. Howeve
105 blueflyer : They are ex-Korean BCF birds (msn 24200 and 24619) If the difference is likely to be bridged with a few more days of negotiations, that all-expense p
106 col : This is very strange. CV have had people at Boeing for a long time, as has previously been stated, what can be new to them? For the Board to make this
107 CX Flyboy : Did they fix the VNAV issue on the -8?
108 Post contains links BoeingVista : Thats simply not true, lots of reports refer to fuel burn issues, fuel burn is a performance issue. Lets go for a Reuters report http://www.reuters.c
109 AirlineCritic : ... but for an effective negotiation, there has to be a chance that the bluff is called out. If there is any airline board in the world with enough b
110 dynamicsguy : Did you actually read Tom's post? Let's see what that article says: Speculation, even from a knowledgeable source, is still just speculation.
111 flythere : So when will be the new expected delivery date?
112 BoeingVista : Yes I did. But its not really speculation is it? The GenX 2B has missed and continues to miss its fuel burn projections, the 747-8 continues to be ov
113 Rheinbote : I think there are two things mixed up here: 1) The "contractual issue" behind the refusal to take delivery is unknown, it *may* be the performance sho
114 dynamicsguy : Then why argue a different question to what he answered? The "it" is the contract dispute, not whether or not the airplane missed its performance tar
115 WestWing : It is really intriguing. As we know, Randy Tinseth - who is presumably high enough in the BCA pecking order to be kept in the loop regarding potential
116 luxair : That is simply wrong because I've just read an article in "Luxemburger Wort" that the money is there but blocked due to contractual differences betwe
117 BoeingVista : The contract dispute is likely related to the missed performance targets, the performance targets are in the contract hence the nice way to discribe
118 packsonflight : What is known in beforehand is not that relevant, what matter is the certified product and the -8 has not bin holding the certification for more than
119 Post contains images luxair : Btw here is the link to the article written in german "http://www.wort.lu/wort/web/business/artikel/2011/09/161667/neue-cargolux-boeings-vorerst-nicht
120 luxair : upesss i have to correct myself...well they mention at some point that US aviation experts speculate that the fuel burn targets set by GE & Boeing
121 Post contains images airbazar : Well duh!
122 par13del : Happens more often than not, the 787 is not yet in service and that has engines from two OEM's and both have been updated prior to entry into service
123 JoeCanuck : How many times before the addition of Al Baker to the board has Cargolux exhibited behavior of this sort? How often has Al Baker exhibited behavior o
124 par13del : Saying a lot of things in the press is a lot different than having a delivery scheduled and then cancelling at the last minute, last one from Boeing
125 flythere : So when will be the new expected delivery date?
126 par13del : My question would be when is Boeing going to announce delivery to the next client that they have offered to move up the delivery line since they now
127 BoeingVista : Thats the second time you have returned to this talking point, I'm happy to say that this is a coincidence unless you have any proof that it isn't. C
128 cosmofly : IMO this act is way beyond legal and business negotiations. It has become personal. It is more important for both sides to address the human ego aspec
129 notaxonrotax : Would there be any official statements from either party, this coming week? Now THAT would be interesting! No Tax On Rotax
130 par13del : If there is any pride at the boardroom level in the company and its products it should. During the design phase of the 747-8 Boeing did ignore some o
131 JoeCanuck : Why do I need proof? Every single possibility presented is speculation, which, by definition, is something one thinks likely but doesn't have proof f
132 tdscanuck : There is zero information from any blogger our journalist that *the delay* is tied to a performance issue. There's plenty out there about performance
133 Post contains images Stitch : Comprehending that CV is displeased with the performance shortfalls is not difficult at all. What is difficult to comprehend is that Boeing and CV ha
134 par13del : So for those who are sure it is a performance issue, did Boeing actually fly the a/c, power it up or do any type testing between Thursday and Friday
135 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : That's your opinion. I love how you accuse others of "group think mentality" because they don't admit it's performance related, then turn around and
136 Post contains images kanban : Al Baker doesn't like the livery, so until Boeing repaints to the new (not yet defined) scheme at Boeing's cost, there will be no delivery... The poin
137 par13del : So I'll ask this question then, let's say the theory is correct, does Boeing now look at him in relation to Cargolux only or do they take this across
138 Danny : As much as the Boeing crowd tries to downplay it and make it look like Al Baker's temper tantrum there is evidence: Cargolux called this a rejection
139 tdscanuck : None of the test fleet airplanes flew on Thursday, at least according to public records. Cargolux would have had customer flights on their soon-to-be
140 par13del : The debate by the so called Boeing crowd is what changed from Thursday to Friday or even the previous week that Cargolux did not know about and which
141 Post contains images yellowtail : But pulled out to where? maybe they are just down the road in PDX and really not that far away
142 BoeingVista : I am merely reporting facts. Boeing failed to certify the FMS, Cargolux refused to accept the aircraft. Unlike your post these are established facts
143 BoeingVista : I suggest that you should look up what group think is...
144 par13del : I thought they agreed to the new delivery date less than two weeks ago, are you saying that improvements were to be made to performance in the last t
145 cyloncat : KPAE shows a Cargolux 748F on a customer flight on September 13. So yes, they might have seen something then. Even so, I'm sure that Cargolux had peop
146 Stitch : I've seen a commercial aircraft purchase contract. It's very long and it has a great deal of clauses on a great deal of things. Performance is but a
147 rcair1 : Data? As are financial terms. Nope. Or it could be embarrassing to Cargolux - it all depends on the outcome and reasons. We know. 1) Cargolux refused
148 Post contains links mffoda : If I may Stitch... I found a base document awhile back that shows some of details involved in a A/C contract... http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/.
149 Post contains images cmf : I very much doubt it is Cargolux goal to shame Boeing. That just isn't how it is done in Luxembourg. The dot their i's and cross their t's and don't
150 Post contains links zeke : I think it also about compensation, however I am not sure how it could be delt with post delivery. Delivery is where money changes hands, and basical
151 SSPhoenix : I can smell Mr. Akbar Al Bakar ... Barking at Boeing through Cargolux ... I can speculate that he wants ... no wait ... he HAS created a massive stir
152 par13del : I seriously doubt that Cargolux would be handing over all their remaining payments for their order on the delivery of the first a/c, even if the cont
153 Danny : Then you know how precise it is about when the customer has the right to reject delivery. Bad mood of one of the shareholders is not one of those sit
154 Ruscoe : IMO Boeing are quite clearly in the best position in this case. Several factors make Cargolux look very amaturish; 1. The late timing of the dispute,
155 AirlineCritic : Thank you for this. Methinks we should look at what has changed in the last couple of weeks, not known issues from the past. And you just provided a
156 PlanesNTrains : I'm not sure, but I can't imagine that "IF" he was the one orchestrating this, that he wouldn't leverage it across his sphere of influence. However,
157 AR385 : Why would any other carrier accept the planes rejected by Cargolux if the reasons for such action by a very reputable company have not been explained
158 Post contains images Stitch : zeke's comments in Reply 150 inspired a new line of thinking... The bulk of the performance hit is due to the GEnx2B and engines are ordered in a sepa
159 col : I believe I have some hard facts. Was talking with Najib, Petronas Filling Station operative here in Ampang, KL. He was saying that all was well until
160 AR385 : Because they are not satisfied with their "own" agreement. That´s why they rejected the airplanes. So, unless the REAL REASON why the airplanes were
161 Post contains images rcair1 : Made my day! Najib - the all knowing, all wise...
162 Post contains links mham001 : I think too little attention is being paid to CX. Management is now in complete disarray. The (suddenly) outgoing CEO is being paid to come to work l
163 Post contains images Stitch : Again, so what? CV's agreement is assuredly not identical to the one KE or CX or LH or any other 747-8 customer has. They did get a "good discount" o
164 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : . Just like people who in 2004-2005 thought that the A380 wouldn't fly either.. This is A.net, what the 'ell are you talking about? More info here: "
165 par13del : So kicking Boeing under the bus get's what, GE power on the A350, 2013 before 2012 for the 787 or 747-8F engine improvemrents, if I follow your comme
166 JoeCanuck : Indeed these are facts...other facts; the sky is often blue and grass is often green...neither of these facts has been proven to be why Cargolux decl
167 AR385 : You have been highly prejudicial in this thread telling anybody who writes anything against Boeing as being "anti-boeing" You choose that hideout to
168 Stitch : Probably nothing, but this is AAB we're talking about here. I am sure it was. Which is why this issue being over performance does not make sense to m
169 par13del : If true, the triple A country needs to get some triple A workers to work for them because these issues were just discovered within the last two weeks
170 tdscanuck : Not true. The FMS is part of the type design, the type certificate has been issued, the FMS is certified. What is true is that the FMS that was certi
171 Post contains links mham001 : But it is an airline in disarray and a new board, 35% of whom may have ulterior motives.... Qatar Airways Ltd. took a 35 percent stake in Cargolux in
172 Stitch : And why this is a "BIG DEAL" now when it wasn't a "BIG DEAL" two weeks ago when Cargolux was originally going to take delivery? It beggars belief tha
173 jetfuel : Supposed empty weight is higher, degraded performance and consequential loss of financial performance.
174 Stitch : All of which has been known to everyone (but CV, I guess) since early in the flight test program.
175 jetfuel : I would say more to do with the extent of degraded performance and additional operating costs. Yes CV was advised there would be penalty issues with
176 Post contains links cosmofly : Now there is rumor that UPS is offering to buy the rejected birds. 23rd comment at http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...argolux-has-informed.html#co
177 par13del : So you go from this to the quote below. So it took them two weeks to decide to take the frames, schedule a delivery event then realise that they mean
178 Post contains images Stitch : No argument there. But again, compensation was negotiated and the contracts were amended accordingly to account for the higher operating costs incurr
179 travelhound : If I remember correctly, in the early days QF rejected acceptance of some of their A380's. Maybe this a part of the course for new aeroplane deliverie
180 col : It is strange, but I go back to your engine point. Maybe the issue is GE and the PIP program. When did GE announce all their PIP's for the 748? Did w
181 Post contains links Stitch : FlightGlobal ran an article about it on 14 February 2011. Part of that is, because of the delay, the GEnx2B already has the revised low pressure turbi
182 col : "The 747-8 PIP has no firm date for implementation, though preliminary development planning targets 2013, confirms GE Aviation chief David Joyce." Fro
183 Post contains images mdword1959 : You must admit, Mr. Al-Baker's impact on this industry has been far greater than could be expected for a guy whose main qualification for the position
184 col : Sorry Stitch, it is PIP II they are talking about for starting 2013. Maybe this is what has CV concerned?
185 col : Although he is a strange and loud guy, the CV board wholy made the decision to cancel. They will have discussed this with their Lawyers to make such
186 tdscanuck : But Cargolux would have known the precise extent of the degraded performance and additional operating costs (whatever those are) long before this wee
187 rj777 : Can you imagine all the work it's going to take to re-paint these first 2 planes if they do go to UPS?
188 Jacobin777 : I am going to re-post here again: [Edited 2011-09-18 22:33:42]
189 neutronstar73 : I don't see how this looks bad to Boeing, and it makes Cargolux look like a customer who suddenly decided to back out of a contracted deal. Everyone k
190 GymClassHero : I wouldn't be surprised if this is the work of Al Baker. Leave it to a bitchy pariah like him to ragequite the entire deal, instead of graciously taki
191 Stitch : The GEnx2B for the 747-8 has not yet received a PIP. Due to the delay in EIS, GE was able to add the revised LPT into production engines. Production
192 Post contains links 747classic : After returning from a nice stay on a mountain top in Italia (with no internet connection at all) i was stricken by the apparent refusal of the new Ca
193 col : Stitch, I was under the impression that there was a PIP I carried out already same time as 787 first PIP? Sorry if I am confused. Will check back on
194 Post contains links BoeingVista : Or from another source, a more complete (?) view: Fuel Nixes Cargolux B747-8F Delivery http://www.aircargonews.com/0911/FT110919.html
195 jonathan-l : I heard elsewhere there is an issue with the FMS. The one for the -8F is still not completed and so had to be certified with 747-400 FMS software. Any
196 InsideMan : while this is probably in fact in the contract you and I both know this is not going to happen. Even less so if CVs reluctance to take delivery has a
197 rheinwaldner : And you have to credibly explain why Cargolux was happy with the paperstuff on Thursday and what made them unhappy with the paperstuff on Friday desp
198 CCA : CX was two take two by the end of Sept. if Cargolux and Boeing don't sort it out and CX is happy with their contract, CX may be the launch customer. S
199 mariner : Not saying it happened here, but it has happened before - not necessarily with aircraft. In business generally, lawyers checking contracts can come u
200 328JET : Wow, some days offline and such bad and unexpected news. A question to some people with more inside knockledge than i have: 1. Does this this performa
201 N14AZ : Assuming that all these rumours of QR interfering in the last minute are correct, one asks himself if Boeing really needs such a client. Today in Germ
202 JoeCanuck : Let's look at the things that changed last week. Cargolux changed its board of directors and Cargolux refused to take the planes...that's it...and thi
203 col : Problem may not be Boeing and CV, but GE and CV. Like I said, could be that the PIP's are not soon enough and giving the improvement required?
204 Burkhard : So this is what happens in a civilized world when we give power to slavedrivers. Civilizations goes down for ego - no matter what damage is made. I wi
205 JoeCanuck : If what 747Classic says is true, in post 192, and I have no reason to doubt, the 748 can meet its performance requirements now...a little heavy and th
206 Post contains images par13del : RR is also doing improvements on the 787 engine, some of which was delayed by the accident on the engine test bed in the UK, so PIP's coming after EI
207 mariner : So much for the idea that the customer is always right. Civilizations have gone to ego for millenia, no matter what damage was done, but I don't see
208 Burkhard : Civilization means honoring the dignity of everybody involved. Here now the dignity of Boeing as a respectible plane make has been damaged, in a dero
209 Post contains images 328JET : It all really sounds like Al Baker uses his chance with a second airline to put pressure on an airplane producer. Horrible!
210 Post contains links SSPhoenix : Al Bakars' Revenge: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-to-late-qatar-787-deliveries.html Nothing against the guy - all the evidence just seems to
211 Post contains images Part147 : And how many times was the 'wedding' put off... This thread is in danger of going right off into la-la land with that comment eh?!
212 mariner : Based on the information we have now, I can't see any way that Boeing or Cargolux have been damaged. It is a contract dispute, they happen with remar
213 col : But, this stink bomb must be legal. The whole thing stinks to hell and back, the plane has not changed, they have been involved in the program from d
214 Post contains images Part147 : I find it interesting that many here are running to 'defend' poor innocent Boeing and paint the 'foriegner' as the bad guy! I think it goes beyong si
215 328JET : Some interesting points from the link above: "The customer does not want the early freighters it is contracted for, instead preferring to skip to a l
216 Post contains links metalinyoni : well with the Qatar Govt looking to take a stake in EADS and also being the owner of Qatar Airways possibly Qatar doesn't need to keep Boeing sweet an
217 BoeingVista : Slightly misleading, in previously the article states The first quote refers to another customer, other than cargolux, who does not want the early bu
218 Stitch : LH senior management have publicly stated the 747-8 Intercontinental will meet their performance guarantees and will be able to perform all missions
219 Post contains images flyingAY : When was the EIS supposed to be originally? You didn't quote the previous chapter, which implies that there's another customer (not CV) also not happ
220 ebbuk : It seems in the Flight Global article, Scott Hamilton says that Qatar became unhappy when they saw how much compensation CV got for the late-n-heavy
221 na : Its interesting to read in flightglobal that the Cargolux 748F deferral is not a 748F issue in the first place, but mainly due to apparently grave iss
222 Post contains links BoeingVista : The new Leehamnews post is up regarding their take on the 747-8F situation, its quite comprehensive. Presented without comment What’s behind the Car
223 Ruscoe : I agree very odd. If this were true then it would be in breach of Corporations law in almost every Western country I would expect. The Board have to
224 cmf : I'm convinced they fully expected to have all the i's and t's dotted and crossed in time for delivery. It is not unusual to have contractual issues b
225 na : I think that Qatar being angry about the 787 is a believable trigger. It seems quite believable that they were even more annoyed to find another unsa
226 Ruscoe : I agree with you about the 787 being a believable trigger, but what I cannot beleive is that, the Board would fall for it, and I mean fall in the lit
227 PanHAM : In the same issue of aircargo news / Flying Typers that reports on the rejection by CV, a CV executive is interviewed who highly praises the 747-8i wh
228 tdscanuck : There are some features that were expected to be there at EIS that aren't...this has been true for some time. That's not exactly correct...a full 747
229 Lufthansa411 : It may- but I would be surprised if the contract doesn't stipulate a performance guarantee for specific components of the aircraft as well. If some s
230 CuriousFlyer : Are the Qataris worried about insufficient performance because we are reaching peak oil? More generally it looks like a few companies will not be able
231 BoeingVista : For the third time... Not necessarily it could simply be that both sides couldn't close the deal and agree on the compensation for the miss. Knowing
232 Post contains images rcair1 : Having been laid off at my last corporate employer directly due to, what I believed at the time to be stupid decisions of the BOD/EC level managers,
233 silentbob : To be honest, that has never really been true. It also reminds me of the movie "clerks". The nationality of the lawyers isn't the issue, it's the mot
234 GARUDAROD : I said this back on post #90..AAB is not happy about the terms of compensation. He will play any card necessary to make is point with the manufacture
235 cosmofly : Board of directors have the fiduciary duty to serve only the interest of its shareholders. Qatar's 35% cannot be used to serve the interest of Qatar's
236 par13del : They do not neet to find anything, a BOD can always change their mind, since no contract containing more than 1 word is bullet proof, lawers will alw
237 dfambro : That may be true, but what's to be done about it? No doubt Qatar's board representatives believe they are acting in the best interest of CV (or at le
238 mham001 : Given the reservations the EU had over the Boeing-McDonnell Douglas merger and the agreements with Delta, AA and CO, that potential situation has to
239 Post contains images seabosdca : If the Leeham report is correct, I think al-Baker's approach is dangerous and shortsighted. Boeing is playing along so far, but it's reasonably likely
240 mariner : No nationality is not the issue - but it was in danger of becoming so. I think that both Boeing and Airbus can play hardball when necessary, I don't
241 PlaneAdmirer : Those now are starting to look like a warm up act for what he is doing now. Sometimes it makes sense to say no to the customer and Al Baker looks to
242 mariner : You have an advantage over me, I don't know what has been said. mariner
243 jreuschl : Does Boeing have any obligation to wait around to settle this? If 5X truly is interested in them, could they just say tough, they're gone?
244 seabosdca : What people on the outside do know -- and the reason that I see al-Baker as in a different class from other difficult customers like Tim Clark and MO
245 mariner : As I've said before, I really don't know why or how Boeing has been "humiliated" - I didn't think such a mammoth, respected company was such a fragil
246 flyingAY : I think no-one here can answer that question. We don't know even who's fault this whole thing is.
247 BlueBus : It is not just this. Add on that the 747-8 program is delayed and of course the 787 program as well.
248 mariner : But how is the 787 program any "humiliation" - by anyone other than Boeing? - and even then I think it is an overly emotive word. I agree that the le
249 PlaneAdmirer : I wish I did. Just reading that the issues pertain more to the 787 deal than the 747-8.
250 StuckInCA : One of my former employers elected to give up my industry's largest customer as they were simply too dificult to work with. While it could look like
251 par13del : Good or bad, principle or face saving in the Western culture is not as strong as in Asia for example, so regardless of all this, if Al-Baker announce
252 Post contains images cmf : It all depends on the contract(s). It seems many think this was a signed contract that AAB tore up. I find that very unlikely. I expect they were wor
253 metalinyoni : It might not be much of an issue if the the Qatari government gets to buy Daimler's share of EADS which they seem to be looking for. If the Qatari go
254 mariner : It would be an odd way of doing business. Presumably, the Qatari would want EADS to make money and too much back scratching of their own would defeat
255 seabosdca : It's not a matter of Boeing screwing up the 787 or 747-8 programs -- Boeing brought that on themselves. It's not a matter of having to pay compensati
256 Post contains images AirlineCritic : This is getting more interesting by the day! This would be inappropriate. Al Bakar and QR do seem to be central to the issue. There are of course mult
257 ER757 : While true - I think it would be hard to actually prove. There would have to be some direct verifiable info stating the refusal of the CV 748's is ti
258 mariner : "Classlessness"? I guess one could say that Michael O'Leary at Ryanair made some fairly "classless" comments about Boeing, and if Boeing was "humilia
259 Post contains links srbmod : With this thread at nearly 260 posts, it is time for a new thread. Please continue to the discussion here: Cargolux To Not Take 747-8F Delivery On Mon
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