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737-10 Max, Reasonable Or Not?  
User currently onlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15402 times:

With Boeing updating the 737NG to the 737Max, would it be reasonable for them to offer an 737-10? Nearly every week someone asks why there is no real 757 replacement and we seem to be in agreement that the market is to small for a new aircraft in the 752 / 753 / 762 aircraft-size.

So what about stretching the 739 by 3 or 4 rows and adding another belly-tank? Would that make sense? Would this aircraft have enough range for TATL trips? Or would it be too limited by wingarea and its powerplants? At least it should be a low-cost program enhancing the 737Max line with a 4th aircraft and closing the gap to the 787-8.

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEGCC777LR From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15323 times:
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Maybe I'm wrong on this, but IIRC this has been discussed before and is a no go option. I think it had something to do with the ground clearance of the fuselage being unable to accept a stretch past where the 900 currently is with the current landing gear. And there is no room in the fuselage to accept longer landing gear struts.

I may be wrong, I'm sure there are many more knowledgeable here who can explain further



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User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15312 times:

I think that the 737-9 is about as long as you can get with the current landing gear as I believe that they'd run into problems with increased tailstrike risk with the plane being too low to the ground. I'm sure that the 757 had taller gear and a differant centre wingbox which would remove commonality with the rest of the MAX family.

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15303 times:

This would be a major investment ( new gears, new gear box ) for a wing that is far to short for such an MTOW increase. Boeing better concentrates on the economics of the -7, -8 and -9 max.

User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 15297 times:

Quoting CARST (Thread starter):
So what about stretching the 739 by 3 or 4 rows and adding another belly-tank? Would that make sense? Would this aircraft have enough range for TATL trips? Or would it be too limited by wingarea and its powerplants?

While the wing area and powerplants might be limiting, the current height of the aircraft and it's effect on rotation angles during takeoff would probably be an equal or even bigger limiting factor, at least as far as runway length requirements go. The longer landing gear/greater ground clearance that so many of us were hoping would be incorporated into the 737MAX upgrade would have solved or at least somewhat mitigated the rotation angle problem as well as allowing larger diameter and more powerful/efficient engines to be fitted, but it doesn't look like taller landing gear will be a part of the upgrade, thus a 737-10 is rendered a non-starter.



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User currently onlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 820 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 14963 times:

But didn't they solve this rotation / tail-strike-risk problem with a software update on the 773 when they discovered that the same problem exists for the very long fuselage of the 773 in relation to its landing gear height?!


Edit: More about the 777 TSP / trail strike prevention in this article:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...rticles/qtr_1_07/article_02_5.html

[Edited 2011-09-19 04:23:30]

User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 5410 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 14961 times:

Quoting TSS (Reply 4):
While the wing area and powerplants might be limiting, the current height of the aircraft and it's effect on rotation angles during takeoff would probably be an equal or even bigger limiting factor, at least as far as runway length requirements go.

   The 739 already has terrible runway performance, mostly because of rotation angles. I don't think a 737-10, absent new landing gear, could have realistically usable runway performance.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 14088 times:

Quoting CARST (Thread starter):
With Boeing updating the 737NG to the 737Max, would it be reasonable for them to offer an 737-10?

No.

Quoting CARST (Thread starter):
Nearly every week someone asks why there is no real 757 replacement

And every week the answer is the same...the 737-900/A321 cover about 90%+ of the market and what's left isn't economical to design another type.

Quoting CARST (Thread starter):
So what about stretching the 739 by 3 or 4 rows and adding another belly-tank? Would that make sense? Would this aircraft have enough range for TATL trips?

It would not make sense. That much stretch would ruin the rotation angles, the additional weight would curb range and adding a belly tank would not be enough to recover that. A 737-10 as described wouldn't be able to hold range with a 737-900ER.

Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
But didn't they solve this rotation / tail-strike-risk problem with a software update on the 773 when they discovered that the same problem exists for the very long fuselage of the 773 in relation to its landing gear height?!

It wasn't exactly the same problem. The 777-300 uses a semi-levered landing gear to help with clearance (not an option available to the 737) and the problem wasn't as severe as the 737.

Tom.


User currently offlineCargoIT From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 13190 times:

I think a 737-800LR would be more likley. Up the MTOW to about the same as the -900 and add fuel tanks in the belly. Keep in mind that the TATL 757-200s generally have a few less seats than the ones used on domestic routs.

User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 12967 times:

Quoting CargoIT (Reply 8):

Sure, but it's not that simple. Just look at the 752 from the inside out and its A LOT different from the 738. Nevermind the huge wing, fuel capacity, and the large engines slung under the wings. Its not just a matter of adding a fuel tank. And upping MTOW. Such an a/c would be severly payload optimized.

We need to come to grips that the current design of the 737 has its limits as far as upgrades and missions.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 853 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12519 times:

In the case of the 737-9, the design is already MAXED out. No further growth potential.


Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 12304 times:

Quoting EGCC777LR (Reply 1):
I think it had something to do with the ground clearance of the fuselage being unable to accept a stretch past where the 900 currently is with the current landing gear.
Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 2):
I think that the 737-9 is about as long as you can get with the current landing gear as I believe that they'd run into problems with increased tailstrike risk with the plane being too low to the ground.
Quoting TSS (Reply 4):
the current height of the aircraft and it's effect on rotation angles during takeoff would probably be an equal or even bigger limiting factor
Quoting CARST (Reply 5):
rotation / tail-strike-risk problem
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 6):
The 739 already has terrible runway performance, mostly because of rotation angles.
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 7):
That much stretch would ruin the rotation angles

6 out of 10 responses mention exactly the same problem, and 60% is about as close to a full consensus as you're likely to get on Anet.  



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User currently offlinehnl2bos From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 11276 times:
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If the tailstrike issue were the only reason holding back such a project could the strech be put before the main gear/wings. Imagine a 737 looking CRJ 1000ish.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 10256 times:

Quoting hnl2bos (Reply 12):
If the tailstrike issue were the only reason holding back such a project could the strech be put before the main gear/wings. Imagine a 737 looking CRJ 1000ish.

That would likely mess up CG a bit and make such a plane difficult to load effectively. Not insurmountable but certainly not worth the effort.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineEGPH From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8622 times:

I From a rather uneducated naive mind:

I think the 737-900/ Boeing 737-9 are long enough and really going any longer on that fuselage would just look weird and as people above have stated I doubt it would have a great runway performance.

If Boeing were too look at producing a 757 replacement I think simply taking the Boeing 739 design and making it XtraLR with added tanks or whatever else would need to be done would be the next logical step. However as a committed Airbus man, I think a modified A321 could fit the bill if Airbus had the time/money/economic incentive to develop it.


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8315 times:

An A322, - totally possible.

I doubt the range is as important as the capacity.

NS


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 5410 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7998 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 15):
An A322, - totally possible.

Much easier than a 737-10, but I think it would still need a bigger wing to have the range most operators would want. Not many operators would want a plane that big that couldn't at least match the range of the 757-300.


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7713 times:

I think they could get away with a little wing root extension and transcontinental range, but I agree with you in theory.

NS


User currently offlinerwessel From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2346 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7069 times:
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Quoting hnl2bos (Reply 12):
If the tailstrike issue were the only reason holding back such a project could the strech be put before the main gear/wings. Imagine a 737 looking CRJ 1000ish.

Well, I suppose they could fix the CG issues a big extension in front of the wing would cause by adding a forward wing, ala Piaggio Avanti.   

If nothing else, it wouldn’t be another boring tube with wings!

Parking issues alone would probably kill that idea, though.


User currently offlinewdleiser From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 961 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6954 times:

I have always wondered how the 757 would do these days if Boeing restarted the assembly line, updated avionics and strapped on some new RR or GenEx engines.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30918 posts, RR: 87
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6862 times:
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Quoting wdleiser (Reply 19):
I have always wondered how the 757 would do these days if Boeing restarted the assembly line, updated avionics and strapped on some new RR or GenEx engines.

If it sold more than a few score, I'd be shocked.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5934 times:

Quoting hnl2bos (Reply 12):

If the tailstrike issue were the only reason holding back such a project could the strech be put before the main gear/wings.

In addition to what BMI727 said (CG issues), you would reduce yaw stability because you'd be adding destabilizing area ahead of the Cp without any compensating increase in tail volume. It's not impossible but it would be more complex than a simple stretch.

Quoting wdleiser (Reply 19):
I have always wondered how the 757 would do these days if Boeing restarted the assembly line, updated avionics and strapped on some new RR or GenEx engines.

There are no RR or GEnX engines in the right size. Even if such a thing did exist, it wouldn't be competitive against the 737MAX/A320NEO.

Tom.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5847 times:

Quoting hnl2bos (Reply 12):
If the tailstrike issue were the only reason holding back such a project could the strech be put before the main gear/wings. Imagine a 737 looking CRJ 1000ish.

Wouldn't that also mean very much increased negative lift would be required from the stabiliser, and therefore worse aerodynamic efficiency and fuel consumption. Tail fuel tanks may help a little but doubtful it would be enough.


User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5734 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 17):
I think they could get away with a little wing root extension and transcontinental range

A simple wing root root extension could solve the MLG length problem, provided that the extension takes place in the portion of the wing root between the MLG pivot points and storage bays, which would in turn help alleviate the rotation issue. They'd probably still need to lengthen the nose landing gear, though.



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User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4723 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 22):
Wouldn't that also mean very much increased negative lift would be required from the stabiliser, and therefore worse aerodynamic efficiency and fuel consumption.

Yes, if you let the CG go forward.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 22):
Tail fuel tanks may help a little but doubtful it would be enough.

Adding tail fuel tanks to a 737 would be a massive change, not in keeping with a simple stretch at all.

Quoting TSS (Reply 23):
A simple wing root root extension could solve the MLG length problem, provided that the extension takes place in the portion of the wing root between the MLG pivot points and storage bays, which would in turn help alleviate the rotation issue.

A wing root extension may be mechanically simple but it could require massive retesting of all aerodynamics and structure. Again, not keeping with the idea of simple stretch.

Tom.


25 TSS : Very true. Also, the wing root extension idea would only make sense if it was adopted across the -9, -8, and -7 lines as well because of the ground c
26 AvObserver : This is pretty much what I thought, too but there are some things Boeing can and will do to make it more competitive with the NEO. But the biggest pr
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