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BA 744 Replacement(787-10X/35X/777X)  
User currently offlineQFA787380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18840 times:

According to Bloomberg BA will start to look at replacing it's 744 fleet and the mentioned contenders are:

787-10X

A350-1000

777-X

No mention of 748I or more 380s, although the 12 already ordered 380s plus options will partially cover this.
No more VLAs for BA???
Boeing will have to come up with a formal announcement of one of the above as at the moment BA only have the 350-1000 as a true choice.

150 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5638 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18830 times:

Well, as we've seen in the recent past, Boeing doesn't necessarily HAVE to have an airplane officially announced before a major carrier announces a purchase....
So maybe BA will launch the 777X, and inform Boeing at a later date that Seattle had better start building it...


User currently offlinecosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 649 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18771 times:

The final nail in the coffin for the current version of 748i?

Customers seem to really want Boeing to build 777X.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29686 posts, RR: 84
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 18779 times:
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Everything I heard was the 747-8 / A380-800 RFP was a "winner take all" RFP and the loser would not be considered going forward.

BA is a premium-heavy airline, so that may favor the 777X. If not the 777X, then I would expect the A350-1000.

The 787-10 could work for TATL and Africa, but I do not see it being an option for Asia, much less Australia.


User currently onlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 18604 times:

787-10X = very doubtful as a fleetwide replacement. They could however operate say half a dozen using it's (inevitably) excellent efficiency on high volume TATL routes.

777-X = if the 77W's are going to be here for 20 years then this seems like the best option to me.

A350 = also a strong contender, though the lower end of this size range can be plugged using 787s. A very strong possibility for long haul and would be perfect for LHR-Asia/Australia.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21416 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 18532 times:

Boeing will still offer BA the 748, likely as an option in part of a package. Doesn't mean BA would have to say yes to all or nothing.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18439 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 4):
A350 = also a strong contender, though the lower end of this size range can be plugged using 787s. A very strong possibility for long haul and would be perfect for LHR-Asia/Australia.

An A350-900R should be able to fly to everywhere in the world nonstop from LHR - if in fact the yield exists.

NS


User currently offlinewolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 476 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18378 times:

As an A380 aficionado I'm a bit disappointed that BA is not looking for more of them beyond the 12 they now have on order (+7 options). It was clear all along that BA would not be replacing their entire 50+ fleet of 747s with A380s but I was kinda hoping for a total of around 25-30. Without any additional A380 sales at BA it is not going to get easier for Airbus to reach break-even on the program (around 500). Come on Leahy, work your magic.

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18355 times:

With BA having 50+ of the 400+ seat 7300nm 744 the replacement does not need to be one aircraft model, in that case a mixture of:

- 388 seat 8000nm 777X

- 320 seat 6800nm 787-10X

would be very competitive. BA have sizable 787 and 777 fleets by then so these would only be new variants for them.

The only problem here is that neither model is launched today and given Bs conservative time-frames (very much needed after the 787 and 748) and the need to get the MAX in the market by 2017 once wonders when they would be available, 2018-2020? Can B get the 787-10X in the market before the MAX in say 2016 and then the 777X in 2018?


The 350-1000 is a one size fits all contender but is seems skewed a little in the wrong direction, 350 seats and 8400nm. It has the advantage of being launched and will have it's design freeze pretty soon, slots should be available from 2018 but there would be no commonality on the pilot or maintenance side.


Though I know little about the 744 usage and BAs future thinking of their network needs I think this is Bs to loose and could serve as the launch for both the 787-10X and the 777X.

[Edited 2011-09-19 18:01:56]


Non French in France
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9107 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 18053 times:

They will need more than 12+7 to replace 57 B 747-400s. Do expect them to order up to 30 at some point

User currently offlineflyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17892 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 9):

They will need more than 12+7 to replace 57 B 747-400s. Do expect them to order up to 30 at some point

Except that they do not appear interested in further A380 aircraft to replace the bulk of the 744s.



"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9107 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 17739 times:

They will need more than 19 I think. Maybe for expansion when the economy picks up again? It is unlikely that they will order 57 A380s but maybe at least 30?

User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7329 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 17648 times:
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Thought BA policy now was not to be a launch customer. Therefore, bye-bye 787-10X & 777-X.

User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2087 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 17567 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 11):
They will need more than 19 I think. Maybe for expansion when the economy picks up again? It is unlikely that they will order 57 A380s but maybe at least 30?

I think in the longer term BA will need a lot more than 30.


User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 17555 times:

The problem today is, that BA is not deciding their fleet plans - it is IAG...

And Iberia has a lot of influence in this decision and they have an Airbus-only fleet.


My guess is, that BA will NOT be the first customer of a new B777-version again...
But it doesn´t rule out an order of more B77Ws, for sure.

I could imagine follow-on orders for B77Ws, A388s and a new order of around 40 A35Js from 2017.

The B77X is too far in the future, the B787-10X is simply not capable enough to replace a B744.


User currently onlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days ago) and read 17531 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 8):


With BA having 50 of the 400 seat 7300nm 744 the replacement does not need to be one aircraft model, in that case a mixture of:

- 388 seat 8000nm 777X

- 320 seat 6800nm 787-10X

That's not the BA scenario. Their 747s are 291/329 seat aircraft, while their 77W is 300 seats.

In reality, they would be really looking at something that would seat 300-320 in a similar density to the 329 seat 747s. Anything that fills more than one daily 747 today can have the A380 chucked at it (depending of course on configuration) and then they can tailor the rest of their fleet to fit routes where they can't quite fill a 747, but need something bigger than a 77E. To me the 779X will fit that role perfectly (with the extra space being filled with Y seats, and a row less W). It's that or the A351, which might lack capability and will lack commonality with the existing 77W fleet.

Quoting david_itl (Reply 12):
Therefore, bye-bye 787-10X & 777-X.

1. They don't have to be launch -- they could be the second customer behind EK or any other airline. Also, the 77X isn't exactly a totally new airframe that's going to be a big disappointment/have major issues at launch (at least, it shouldn't).
2. Plenty of airlines have defected -- the example that springs to mind is NZ who usually take the last off the line and are the launch customer for the B789...

Quoting United Airline (Reply 11):
They will need more than 19 I think. Maybe for expansion when the economy picks up again? It is unlikely that they will order 57 A380s but maybe at least 30?

Well we will have to see. But I personally see them aiming for a far more flexible and tailored fleet. A pile of 788/9s, 30-40 77X and 20ish A380s would do BA very nicely.


User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 722 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days ago) and read 17413 times:

Quoting david_itl (Reply 12):
Thought BA policy now was not to be a launch customer. Therefore, bye-bye 787-10X & 777-X.

The 787-10 will be a simple stretch of the 789 and would be viewed as a low risk investment by airlines who aren't fond of being launch customers. Having said that, the 787-10 is more of a 330/772 replacement (without the range of the 77E) rather than a viable 744 replacement.
I'm sure that BA would prefer a 777X but the EIS will be quite late in the decade - does that fit BA's timetable ?
744's are considered gas guzzlers in today's world, let alone 2018/20.


Regads,
StickShaker


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17181 times:

That sounds very bad. - a bunch of bland twinjets. Good god, Im afraid that the composition of most fleets in the 20s will make me turn away from aviation as a hobby, as it´ll be the most boring sight since civil aviation exists.

But I´m sure BA will order some more VLAs, a dozen or so more A380s should make sense for them. Even more so for its passengers.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9107 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 17175 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
Well we will have to see. But I personally see them aiming for a far more flexible and tailored fleet. A pile of 788/9s, 30-40 77X and 20ish A380s would do BA very nicely.

Maybe 25-30 I think. They need more than just 12+7. Even QF has 20+4

[Edited 2011-09-20 01:19:34]

User currently offlineChrisba777er From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16809 times:

Quoting david_itl (Reply 12):
Thought BA policy now was not to be a launch customer. Therefore, bye-bye 787-10X & 777-X.

Agreed but as a poster above noted - the 787-10X (if Boeing launch and build it) is a simple stretch of the 787 and should be less stressful at EIS in terms of bugs and MX issues etc than say, a brand new plane. BA got their fingers burned in a big way with the GE90 on the 772s they took in 1995, and the 777 was initially an absolute dog for them.

They are big fans (like what I did there?) of the 777-300ER and I've no doubt they would prefer a 77WX if Boeing offered one.

My gut says they'll want 30+ of whatever type they take so there is considerable scope for a split order in my view. 10-ish A35Xs and ten or so 77WXs (or 77Ws if Boeing dont end up making the NG) to do the heavier stuff the A35X cannot do.

788, 789, A359, A35X, 77W/77WX and A380.

Compelling stuff.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16769 times:

Quoting david_itl (Reply 12):
Thought BA policy now was not to be a launch customer. Therefore, bye-bye 787-10X & 777-X.

They didnt enjoy being the launch customer for the 777A or GE90... But that was a long time ago.



BV
User currently offlinewarden145 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16726 times:

Quoting na (Reply 17):
That sounds very bad. - a bunch of bland twinjets. Good god, Im afraid that the composition of most fleets in the 20s will make me turn away from aviation as a hobby, as it´ll be the most boring sight since civil aviation exists.

Sadly, that's the way it's looking to be going forward...the day's coming sooner rather than later when, other than the occasional A380, every airliner out there's going to be a twin. I know I'm in the minority on this board, but I'm dreading that day.  

I still think the 747-8i would fit into BA's fleet (similar to how it'll be utilized by LH), but sounds like there's no chance of that happening...

I wonder how long it'll be before airlines start demanding large single-engine airliners?



ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
User currently offlineshankly From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2000, 1528 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16706 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 15):
Also, the 77X isn't exactly a totally new airframe that's going to be a big disappointment/have major issues at launch (at least, it shouldn't).


er....just like the 748 then?

BA has not launched a jet since the 757 and is unlikely ever to do so again, particularly in its new format

Whilst BA has a record of keeping their jets for ever, its dilemma is that the 744's are more than getting on and how long can they afford to wait?

Boeing would be nuts not to offer some sort of rolling 77W/77X fleet....although Boeing have of course proven themselves to be nuts in recent years and might prove an easy picking for Airbus in a sweet 351/388 deal



L1011 - P F M
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2607 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16656 times:

Quoting warden145 (Reply 21):
I wonder how long it'll be before airlines start demanding large single-engine airliners?

I heard one airline CEO from the Middle East is even demanding airliners without any engines. Wonder about the qataristics of such a plane...   


User currently offlineparapente From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 1509 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16513 times:

Reply 14. The problem today is, that BA is not deciding their fleet plans - it is IAG...

That hit the nail on the head. It will be an IAG purchase not a BA one - period. What that means I don't know in terms of orders but one has to stop thinking about an airline that (in terms of purchasing) does not exist any more.

In terms of VLA's the 19 they have on order/options will do for the moment. Might as well wait to see what a mark 2 might look like. (a 900 with XWB engines?) before ordering any more.

BA has about 50 772ers that will need replacing and probably about 20 744's (ie less 380's and 773er's). What the position is with the Iberia "bit" I do not know but it will be considered as one whole purchase of that I am sure.


25 Post contains images CXB77L : They will order the best aircraft for the airline, regardless of which manufacturer it comes from. If anything, Boeing has the upper hand because BA'
26 Bongodog1964 : As has been explained many times in Anet, many of the BA 744's are comparitively young, roughly half the fleet was delivered from 1997 - 1999. BA doc
27 par13del : I disagree, they will order the a/c that is best for the group, your second comment ignores the fact that it is now two airlines and not one. So what
28 Burkhard : And after a year of speculation we hear that BA opts to take two more A380 from their options, 4 more B77W and delays the rest of the decision by anot
29 bill142 : Don't get down beat. There's a better chance of the 748 than you think.
30 JerseyFlyer : I see some additional 77Ws for immediate replacement of a small subset of the 744s. Beyond that I see long term BA cum Iberia fleet planning determini
31 frigatebird : This is one RFP neither Boeing nor Airbus wants to lose. There's more at stake than just the replacement of 747s IMHO. The next RFP will be for replac
32 qf002 : 6 of which have been deferred because it's simply too much for now, of course (and if those 4 options happen then it’s not till mid-late next decad
33 scouseflyer : A388s for IB is one of those things that's been talked about for as long as I've been a member on here (about 6 years IIRC) it would be great but I'm
34 flipdewaf : But surely the A350 benefits from nearly 20 years aviaton experience over the 777? Fred
35 Post contains images EPA001 : That would be very nice. . But overall this one will be very interesting to watch. There are a lot of developments going on right now. It will be a v
36 Post contains images scbriml : I can't see BA ending up with much less than 30 A380s in their fleet. Don't forget that their home base is one of, if not the most slot-restricted air
37 Post contains images astuteman : Er.............. Because it doesn't? An A380-800 has 70% more capacity than a 773ER but only burns about 40%-45% more fuel. If Airbus ever stretched
38 shankly : That was the point I made. BA has a history of keeping its jets in service for their full economic life. However, has history not taught you a lesson
39 Post contains images gemuser : DING DING DING Obvious when stated, isn't it. Gemuser
40 par13del : Maybe because no one is mentioning the 767's in BA's fleet and are only talking about the 777's and 747. I believe that BA is looking at the 787 as r
41 Chrisba777er : My reading of this order is that they have split the 744 fleet into two: First tranche - high/mid density birds. Second tranche - low density birds. T
42 scouseflyer : Or to put it another way - 25% of the capaity of the A389 would be effectively free from fuel cost!
43 parapente : I personnaly struggle to see what the 787-10 has to do with a 744 replacement. Whether it be wing size,pavement loading ,range etc etc unless they cha
44 Bongodog1964 : This isnt a vaild comparison, yes the 742's did go earlier than their planned 25 years due to the after effects of 9/11. They however went as part of
45 rheinwaldner : You defined the following corner stones (and I don't question them): 100% more pax for 45-50% more fuel This means that in order to close the gap the
46 jfk777 : Why doesn't BA order 20 777-300ER for early 744 replacements. 777 of some type will be prominent in BA's future fleet.
47 HUYfan : I really think the A380 is the way forward for BA. There is scope, routewise (with small capacity increases), for a fair few more A380s. Pretty much a
48 Stitch : Maybe BA is not sure when they want them? Since the wording is "yet to agree on delivery dates" as opposed to "has no clue on delivery date"... The 7
49 Bongodog1964 : BA has already covered the replacement of the early 744's by ordering A380's. All these suggestions of BA replacing 744's with smaller aircraft keep
50 Burkhard : Why replace 744s that still have a lot of life in them and are rather new too fast. The 744 will still have many years with BA, I expect beyond 2020
51 JoeCanuck : Perhaps in theory, but not in practice, at least the way EK uses them. Their highest passenger configuration for the 380 is 517 seats and their highe
52 qf002 : You could say that, but in my eyes aviation has moved nowhere near as much 1995-2013 compared with 1969 to 2011. The late 20th Century was such a fas
53 AirbusA6 : EK bizarely (IMHO) operate both the 777 and A380 at 10Y, when the latter is considerably wider than the former! If I operated 767s and A330s at 8Y, t
54 JoeCanuck : AF/KLM and Air New Zealand are 2 others going or have gone 10 abreast with their 777's. People can complain all they like about 10 abreast but EK doe
55 9252fly : Would it be feasible or possible for Boeing to use a composite fuselage on the 77X if it could reduce EOW significantly? I'm sure Boeing has learned a
56 scbriml : Yes, the 787s are for 767 replacement and growth - BA has 21 767s in operation and 24 787s on order. What surprises me is that they haven't yet agree
57 neutronstar73 : What? What this rant is I don't even...... Can you please back this up with some numbers/specs/simulations please? I don't know if BA would operate t
58 astuteman : Absolutely right and proper pull-up Joe. I should have used the word "potentially" in there somewhere. That said, those airlines "underutilising" tha
59 JoeCanuck : Possibly but Boeing is no doubt looking at the newest, lighter al-li alloys. Alcoa claims a 10% weight savings over current alloys. Boeing could pote
60 kaitak : I wonder how real a change this will be; BA is going to be very heavily involved in whatever decision is made; it will effectively make the decision.
61 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Here's my B787-10X as BA has options/rights for 28 more B787 aircraft. Some options/rights will probably be a mix for B788 and/or B789's as well. If t
62 seabosdca : I honestly don't see the need for all of those types. I think they will end up with three types, and the only question is whether the middle type is
63 tistpaa727 : This was my guess as well. Makes the most sense. According to Boeing O&D (http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm?content=displaysta
64 parapente : This thread has gone back to what BA will buy.BA will never buy another plane - ever. The parent company will and they will take into account Iberia (
65 Chrisba777er : This is exactly my point. BA operate the 788, 789, A359, A35X, 77W/77WX and A380, and IB use the A359 and A35J. Common fleet and common pilot trainin
66 Post contains images determinist : That didn't stop BA choosing the A380 over the 748, despite having 50+ 744's. Another thing to bear in mind is BA's strong relationship with Rolls Ro
67 fpetrutiu : My money would be on the 777X because of their 777 fleet. They seem to be very happy with the 777's.
68 Jacobin777 : Er, I didn't make that comment...
69 Speedbird2155 : While it is IAG that will place the order, it is the operating companies, ie BA and IB, that have to evaluate the options and make a recommendation t
70 ukoverlander : Wait a minute........Boeing has just announced the "747-800 Maxrehash" - the next generation VLA
71 neutronstar73 : HAHAH!! Classic! Funny thing is, that's something the forever indecisive management of Boeing will roll out next. UNtil they change their minds again
72 Aquila3 : No way, if you are in Y. Try to sit near the engines on a 77W and on an 380 (well, as near as you can)....
73 fpetrutiu : Kind of what AF/KL did just a few days ago. I don't think they would considerably change the BA fleet to fit Iberia's needs... If anything, it would
74 astuteman : Reading the thread will probably help....... On second thoughts, allow me .. better? One of the biggest issues I perceive with the 777X as it appears
75 RadicalDudeJOM : Will engine choice make much of difference in this order? It seems in the last 10-15 years BA has gotten away from everything having to be RR powered
76 Stitch : BA has a good number of daily narrowbody movements into and out of LHR. They might be able to consolidate some flights onto larger narrowbodies or ev
77 JoeCanuck : I suspect that just as Airbus has accepted that the -1000 will lose some commonality with the -900, Boeing has accepted whatever upgrade is required
78 btblue : Given the current climate I see BA ordering planes with RR. Of course there is the exception with the 77W and the 748 which will form part of the flee
79 QFA787380 : Is it? That gives them 4 types that I think could easily be reduced to 3 by dumping the 350s and getting 787-10Xs. 788/789/7810X/77W/388 sounds more
80 Post contains images AirbusA6 : The point I was making, is that having a 10Y 777 and a 10Y A380 in your fleet, is a vastly inconsistent product, between planes on similar long haul
81 seabosdca : Remember, as presently envisioned, the 777X would have interior space more like today's 747 than today's 777. Granted, a 10Y 747 is still inferior to
82 Stitch : A 9Y A350 and a 10Y A380 will also offer "vastly inconsistent" products. So that should favor the 777X, as that will be consistent at 9Y with the A38
83 JoeCanuck : It's actually not if you can sell the seats...which EK seems to be able to do. 10 abreast isn't, in itself, the torture some seem to think. My compla
84 fpetrutiu : Not sure what your sources are but remember, the 787 managed to get the same type rating as the 777. Sure, some commonality will be lost, but they co
85 gigneil : What about, idk , all the parts??? NS
86 Post contains links fpetrutiu : Hey say 50% commonality is better than 0% commonality, don't you agree? Hell, even 20% commonality is better than 0% commonality and a brand new flig
87 astuteman : I'd also say that 90% commonality is better than 50%. And if BA decide that the A350-900 is a perfect 772 replacement for them (which it is), then th
88 CXB77L : Perhaps not, but the A350 is an achievable target. I wasn't referring to the 77W v A380 per se, but rather I was generally addressing na's comment ab
89 328JET : No, not cargo capacity, only cargo volume - that is a big difference. The 787-10x as we heard, will be developd as a simple stretch of the -9, so it
90 Post contains images qf002 : Assuming we don't see a new product debut on the A380 (which is going to suffer the awkward width issue if they put J on the upper deck). So basicall
91 shankly : You do rather look backwards than forwards. My observation is entirely valid and proves that the fleet plans that existed in the late 90's were rapid
92 JerseyFlyer : Yes but with a new wing AND a new fuselage would it still be a 777?
93 RayChuang : I think at least for the short term, BA will likely buy another 10-15 777-300ER's to replace their oldest 747-400's. If Airbus can live up to its prom
94 Cerecl : BA already has12+7 A380 and 2+4 (leased) 77W on order. I would imagine these are enough to cover the oldest 744s. Of course, it is possible that BA mi
95 Post contains images Stitch : Capacity equals volume in my book. Capability, on the other hand, would include payload weight and range at that payload weight. As for that, I fully
96 par13del : Boeing has not been able to significantly reduce the interior noise of the 777W, but you want to shave inches off and somehow find some new materials
97 qf002 : Doubt it by 2020. I'd say closer to 2025. Because an all new design is not necessary. Why spend billions more, and years more, and take greater risk,
98 Post contains images EPA001 : If true, then why do so many people here on A-net stating that Boeing should have gone with a totally new design in the Narrow Body Market? I for one
99 speedmarque : I reckon the 777x will morph into a whole new airliner, remember the first A350............
100 JoeCanuck : They very well might be able to use new materials, (as in al-li alloys), and build the fuse exactly the same way and achieve weight savings. This has
101 Post contains images EPA001 : But the penalty for doing so will be exponentially greater with every further stretch. .
102 seabosdca : Or 787/A350/A380. The 777-300ERs will be around for awhile, but if BA goes A350 they will be an exception in the fleet and I think they would be like
103 JoeCanuck : I agree totally. I've flown on just about every aircraft available from bother makers, (except the 380), and noise just isn't a major issue and I dou
104 EPA001 : I don't think so. It might not be the most important issue but just flew the B777 to the US last month after my 4 flights on the A380. Then the B777
105 Post contains images na : No way the 787-10 is a 744 alternative. But beside the A350-900 its the perfect replacement aircraft for BAs aging 772 fleet which needs to be retire
106 Post contains links Stitch : BA have converted two 77W options to orders: BA Exercise Two 77W Options. (by speedmarque Sep 21 2011 in Civil Aviation)
107 Post contains images neutronstar73 : Regarding this noise issue on 777s...I too think this is an urban legend that is just perpetuated by people who want to hear noise or will seek it out
108 Stitch : Speaking from personal experience on most of each OEM's fleet offerings, I find the Airbus products to be quieter than Boeing, but I do not find the n
109 EPA001 : It is definitely not an urban legend. Have you flown on the A380 already?
110 JoeCanuck : I would venture that very few people, even those who know of any cabin noise differences between the 777 and anything else, would buy a ticket based
111 neutronstar73 : Doesn't matter, because it is irrelevant. Every airplane is different, and every operator is different. Where you sit, interior fittings, everything
112 bongodog1964 : Unless BA have a change from their usual policy on long haul retirements, 772 replacement wont commence until around 2020, they might however decide
113 Post contains images EPA001 : You are most probably correct. As much as I like the A380 I am not going out of my way to try to fly it as much as I can. Hence why I booked a flight
114 gigneil : The answer to that question is no, it wouldn't be. NS
115 travelhound : If you can reduce the noise at its source (i.e. the engines, forward fuselage) combined with newer materials for the insulation, than it just might b
116 EPA001 : I do not doubt that the B777-8X/9X will be a very quiet airplane. I expect the B787 also to be a very quiet plane for that matter. Passengers demand
117 JoeCanuck : I saw the 787 take off at Oshkosh this year...I was shocked at how quiet it was...in fact it was so quiet, I have nothing to compare it to. Suffice i
118 ikramerica : The 777 is louder in the back 1/3rd of the aircraft than the Airbus quads. Those giant GEs are the cause. In the front, the difference is not percept
119 gigneil : List them. For your sake, I hope they involve the A330, the A340, and the A380. Otherwise you get dismissed to the fanboy status you so richly deserv
120 neutronstar73 : Prepare for your embarrasment...since I'm no fanboy (your statement implies that you are)...or if you didn't read my original post...heck I'll list t
121 Post contains images ferpe : There is some myths in the payload-range discussion in this thread that needs to be straighten out, I have therefore done this (a bit loaded ) Payload
122 Post contains images seabosdca : Your graph also shows that at non-ULH ranges the 77W beats the 35J on payload. And this is verified performance of the 77W against Airbus claims for
123 JoeCanuck : I've flown on about 80% of your list on the civilian side, (plus a few not listed), and about 2% on the military list...and I pretty much agree with
124 mffoda : This whole NOISE issue is complete BS outside of the aviation fans on this website and others like it! Many posters are trying associate regulated noi
125 CXB77L : The difference is that the original A350 had very little interest from airlines. EK have stated that they're ready to sign up to the 777X, SQ and BA
126 astuteman : Although even if only 1%-2% make a definitive choice, that can be marginally quite significant in business terms.. ??? The 238t A332 has a nominal ra
127 Post contains images ferpe : Sure, it's MSP is about 2t more. Given it's larger cabin which can do 10Y it will need this, in practice the 351 will not have to much trouble with i
128 qf002 : Because the 737 is already in it's 3rd upgrade, is a 40 year old design and is in a duopoly situation. The 777 is 15 years old, still an excellent pl
129 Post contains images EPA001 : That is true, and it was not my point. My point is that all kinds of regulations require the planes to be as silent as possible. At many airports (we
130 Post contains images frigatebird : On the inside, I also have the experience the 777 is noisier than the A340/A330, but only really noticeable behind the engines. On the outside, I fin
131 scbriml : Over 200 firm orders in fairly short time was "very little interest"? Ready to sign up? A bit IF and COULD at this stage, no? Clark added that Boeing
132 parapente : Just read on another thread that BA have taken up their 2 further options on the 777-300er. So that's 8 new birds.Then you have the A380's (plus optio
133 qf002 : Apart from the fact that only a few dozen were actually 'firm orders' when the old A350 was scrapped. There is a reason that the design was ditched.[
134 neutronstar73 : Is it any different than this? I guess the 777 is noisier because EPA001 said so, claiming it as "fact." (where is the measurements of such fact, I d
135 StickShaker : It all depends on what technologies are available that can only be integrated into a clean sheet design as opposed to an upgrade or NG. The 737Max al
136 EPA001 : Yes it is. Especially there is a widely agreement (and a history of many threads out here already about the same subject) where most posters particip
137 seabosdca : It will be a business decision. No airline, including BA, goes by an inflexible "we bought it, we keep it" rule. BA (like all of our big airlines her
138 Post contains links CXB77L : Like these? http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1999/news_release_990616a.html http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2000/news_release_001120a.html htt
139 Post contains images EPA001 : Those are general questionnaires, and coming from a manufacturer. When it comes to the noise levels, which are not singled out in the questionnaires
140 JerseyFlyer : Absolutely agree. The 744 replacement decision will be taken with an eye to the subsequent 772 (and IB 343) replacement decision.
141 Post contains images neutronstar73 : You aren't making any sense, at all. First you say this to back up your assertion that it is a "fact" that Airbus products are "quieter, better" what
142 Post contains images EPA001 : Oh yes, I am. You just failed to notice it. . Good, since it most likely was too much for you. . And now we better put that issue to rest and talk ab
143 Post contains images neutronstar73 : Yes, I will move on....your "methods" are way too much for me. It's like in court when the opposing counsel says or asks ridiculous statements or que
144 bongodog1964 : If you look at the survey forms its quite laughable, the only question is "which of these aircraft do you prefer" NO need to justify your decision in
145 EPA001 : If Boeing can keep the capacity gap big enough between the two, BA will probably take both imho. Just as we see the B787/A359 combo, we might see ano
146 Post contains images mffoda : VH-OQA?
147 neutronstar73 : I have to agree with that. BA doesn't strike me as an airline that goes out on a limb to be the first of anything. Perhaps they will buy both...that
148 Stitch : Would that maybe not favor the 777X, then? Even if Boeing makes some big changes, it's still going to be a 777 and BA has plenty of experience with t
149 Post contains images EPA001 : It could really be a factor to consider. On the other hand, with the worlds largest B747-fleet they still ordered the A380 instead of the B747-8i. .
150 Post contains images qf002 : Same issue as the A380. If they want to do an upper-deck J product then something is going to have to give... Personally I think it's time for an all
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