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Eastern Air Lines European Presence And Hubs  
User currently onlinecombatshadow From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 149 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4560 times:
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I've noticed a lot of pics of Eastern's domestic-route birds in Europe, such as the 727. Did Eastern operate domestic flights, at least in the European sense, from their European hubs? I have always thought hubs for american airlines in Europe were strictly for international flights and hops.


Bob
21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4535 times:

Quoting combatshadow (Thread starter):
I've noticed a lot of pics of Eastern's domestic-route birds in Europe, such as the 727

Where are you seeing those photos? I can't find any in the A.net database

Unless I'm overlooking something, Eastern's only transatlantic route (and not for long) was MIA-LGW. They also operated some military charters.


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4473 times:

Quoting combatshadow (Thread starter):
I've noticed a lot of pics of Eastern's domestic-route birds in Europe, such as the 727. Did Eastern operate domestic flights, at least in the European sense, from their European hubs? I have always thought hubs for american airlines in Europe were strictly for international flights and hops.

Eastern never had a hub in Europe.

Perhaps you may be confusing them with Delta, Pan Am, United or TWA, as these airlines years ago had hub operations within Europe.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
They also operated some military charters.

The bulk of the handful of shots in the database of Eastern a/c in Europe are just that. There are two shots of Eastern liveried a/c at the Paris Air Show (JetStar in 1971 and an A300 in 1977.).


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5239 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4473 times:

EA operated MIA MAD/LGW on and off with CO on MIA LGW


The best IFE: A window seat and a good book.
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3258 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4433 times:

I'm trying to understand what the OP thinks he's seeing. I also only found a few EA DC-8s on military charters, the aforementioned LGW flights and a few delivery related flights in the A.net database for Europe. No 727s as he mentions.

Perhaps the OP can confirm his question and we can try to help.

Ah, the Whisperliners.....


User currently offlinePrinair From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 744 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4266 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 3):
EA operated MIA MAD/LGW

Although EA had plans to fly to Madrid and went as far as printing promotional materials, the service was never started.



PRINAIR : Puerto Rico International Airlines
User currently onlinecombatshadow From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4233 times:
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I'm sorry guys. I was doing some research on Eastern and Pan Am, and got them flip-flopped. WOW, I really botched this question.

I'm actually asking about Pan Am.

[Edited 2011-09-19 18:51:20]


Bob
User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4008 times:

Pan Am, over the years, operated a good number of intra-Europe flights on narrow-bodied aircraft.

Checking a few random Pan Am timetables from the 80s:

Munich-London 727 and 737
Athens-Frankfurt 727 and 737
Zagreb-Frankfurt 737
Warsw-Frankfurt 727 and 737
Munich-Vienna 737
Vienna-Warsaw 737
Munich-Budapest 737
Geneva-Istanbul 727
Amsterdam-London 727 and 737
Brussels-London 737
Frankfurt-London 727 and 737
Nuremberg-Brussels 737
Hamburg-London 737
Helsinki-Stockholm 727
Stockholm-Frankfurt 727
Krakow-Prague 727
Warsaw-Prague 727
Dubrovnik-Budapest 727
Bucharest-Budapest 727
Belgrade-Zagreb 737
Frankfurt-Moscow 727
Frankfurt-Budapest 727
Stuggart-Zurich 727
Oslo-London 727
Copenhagen-London 727
Oslo-Copenhagen 727

The list really goes on and on. Since these were all cross-boarder flights, I believe Pan Am had the right to sell these segments. In fact, none of these routes in the Pan Am timetables have the "No local traffic permitted" notation.

Plus there was the Internal-German network that saw Pan Am service from Berlin to Frankfurt, Hamburg, Munich, Nuremberg and Stuggart that operated mainly with narrow-body aircraft.


User currently offlineskyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3934 times:

I flew on a PA 727 FRA-BUD-DBV in the 1980s. The BUD stop was about 45 minutes. I thought about taking some pics from the plane until I saw Hungarian soldiers with big guns walking around the plane on the ramp.

On a side note, PA had a small CTO in DBV. I think it was a one agent operation.


User currently offlineBAViscount From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2338 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3533 times:

Quoting PI767 (Reply 7):
Pan Am, over the years, operated a good number of intra-Europe flights on narrow-bodied aircraft.

I'm assuming they used their own aircraft on those flights? The only reason I mention it is that the 80s was the decade when I did most of my spotting trips to London's airports and I also lived under the flightpath for the 27s at LHR, but I don't recall ever seeing anything but Pan Am widebodies! I'm just wondering how I could have missed their 727s and 737s!!   



Ladies & gentlemen this is Captain Tobias Wilcock welcoming you aboard Coconut Airways flight 372 to Bridgetown Barb
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

Quoting BAViscount (Reply 9):
Quoting PI767 (Reply 7):
Pan Am, over the years, operated a good number of intra-Europe flights on narrow-bodied aircraft.

I'm assuming they used their own aircraft on those flights? The only reason I mention it is that the 80s was the decade when I did most of my spotting trips to London's airports and I also lived under the flightpath for the 27s at LHR, but I don't recall ever seeing anything but Pan Am widebodies! I'm just wondering how I could have missed their 727s and 737s!!

Pan Am 103, the 747-100 blown up over Lockerbie in 1988, operated FRA-LHR-JFK. The FRA-LHR sector was a "change-of-gauge" operation with the same flight number but operated by a 727-200.


User currently offlinewarden145 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

You learn something new every day...I didn't know Pan Am ran 737's before today, although I knew about their intra-Europe 727 service. Looking through the photo archives, it looks like nearly all of them were -222's or -297's, which as I understand it indicate that the birds were originally ordered by UA or AQ. 1982 is the earliest firm date from the archives...just curious, does anyone have any more info on the history behind PA's 737's? I understand that PA was allowed to run domestic and short-haul international operations in Europe (IIRC initially as a way to get air service started up quickly in the immediate post-war era)...


ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3094 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

Quoting warden145 (Reply 11):
You learn something new every day...I didn't know Pan Am ran 737's before today

It was a mini-controversy too from what I understand. I think I am remembering this correctly --having recently reread Skygods by Robert Gandt which I can not recommend enough-- but the 737s came from Air Florida. This was an issue because the airplanes were a 2 man cockpit, down from the 3 man 727, and also because the CEO at the time, Ed Acker, had just recently come from Air Florida so the perception was he was helping out his old company.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3185 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 12):
Quoting warden145 (Reply 11):
You learn something new every day...I didn't know Pan Am ran 737's before today

It was a mini-controversy too from what I understand. I think I am remembering this correctly --having recently reread Skygods by Robert Gandt which I can not recommend enough-- but the 737s came from Air Florida.

Only about half of the 16 732s operated by Pan Am came from Air Florida. They were mostly ex-UA aircraft. The rest came from a variety of sources including several from Canadian regional carriers Pacific Western and Quebecair. I may be wrong but I think most (possibly all) of the Pan Am 732s were leased. They only operated them rather briefly, from 1982-83 until 1985-87 or thereabouts.

Quoting warden145 (Reply 11):
I understand that PA was allowed to run domestic and short-haul international operations in Europe

Apart from the IGS (Internal German Services) between what was then West Berlin and other points in Germany, which was the result of the special status of Berlin after WWII with only US, British and French carriers pemitted to operate to/from West Berlin, Pan Am had no domestic rights in Europe.

They had many 5th freedom international rights from the various bilaterals, as did TWA. But those rights didn't permit stand-alone services. All those US carrier services within Europe (apart from West Berlin) had to be tag-on sectors to/from flights originating/terminating in the US. Change-of-gauge was permitted, thus the use of 727s and 737s etc. Few of those tag-on markets had enough demand to warrant operation of a widebody although if memory correct Pan Am did have a small number of A310s based in Europe towards the end of their existence for use on a few of the 5th freedom routes.


User currently offlineBAViscount From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2338 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3127 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
The FRA-LHR sector was a "change-of-gauge" operation with the same flight number but operated by a 727-200.

I never knew that.

The photos in the database all seem to mainly date from the early 70s, or the late 80s - is that just coincidence, or was there really a sizeable gap in the service?

I'm just amazed that I never noticed a PA 737 or 727 either on the ground at LHR or flying over my Battersea home, especially as I had a bit of a thing about American airlines (in the general sense). I obviously never looked up at the right moment!   



Ladies & gentlemen this is Captain Tobias Wilcock welcoming you aboard Coconut Airways flight 372 to Bridgetown Barb
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26029 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3091 times:

Quoting BAViscount (Reply 14):
The photos in the database all seem to mainly date from the early 70s, or the late 80s - is that just coincidence, or was there really a sizeable gap in the service?

I can't recall any gap, but LHR had far fewer of those services than FRA which was Pan Am's major European hub for those tag-on operations. Pan Am's traffic rights beyond LHR were much more restrictive in those days. For example, they operated a tag-on sector LHR-ORY in the 1970s and perhaps beyond but Pan Am had no 5th freedom rights London-Paris.


User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3081 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Pan Am 103, the 747-100 blown up over Lockerbie in 1988, operated FRA-LHR-JFK. The FRA-LHR sector was a "change-of-gauge" operation with the same flight number but operated by a 727-200.
Quoting BAViscount (Reply 14):
I never knew that.

Yes, in fact, the actual routing of flight 103 was Frankfurt-London (727) London-JFK (747) and then JFK-Detroit (back to the 727).

Quoting BAViscount (Reply 14):
The photos in the database all seem to mainly date from the early 70s, or the late 80s - is that just coincidence, or was there really a sizeable gap in the service?

Do you mean just in Europe or in general?


User currently onlinecombatshadow From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2466 times:
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See, I knew you guys could give me some interesting intel and observations.

Thanks gentlemen.



Bob
User currently offlineAwysBSB From Brazil, joined Sep 2005, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2394 times:

If, instead of Pan Am, Eastern Airlines tookover National Airlines late 70's, they could have created a hub in Europe. Perhaps the merged Eastern-National could still be running.

User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3094 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 18):
If, instead of Pan Am, Eastern Airlines tookover National Airlines late 70's, they could have created a hub in Europe. Perhaps the merged Eastern-National could still be running.

How? Maybe if Eastern took over Pan Am they could have. Definitely not if they took over National at that time though. Too many regulatory barriers were in place to prevent it.


User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2171 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 19):
How? Maybe if Eastern took over Pan Am they could have. Definitely not if they took over National at that time though. Too many regulatory barriers were in place to prevent it.

While I do believe that an Eastern/National merger would have made MUCH more sense, I don't see a combined EA/NA having any sort of hub in Europe. At the time, Eastern didn't serve Europe and National's presence was rather limited.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9756 posts, RR: 31
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2073 times:

There was a chance to see Eastern Airlines livery in Europe, LTU and Eastern shared a Tristar which LTU operated in the summers to the Mediterranean destinations while it flew for EA to Florida in the winters. I remember vaguels that it was either all EA or hybrid c/s.


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
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