combatshadow From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3510 times:
I've noticed a lot of pics of Eastern's domestic-route birds in Europe, such as the 727. Did Eastern operate domestic flights, at least in the European sense, from their European hubs? I have always thought hubs for american airlines in Europe were strictly for international flights and hops.
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3423 times:
Quoting combatshadow (Thread starter): I've noticed a lot of pics of Eastern's domestic-route birds in Europe, such as the 727. Did Eastern operate domestic flights, at least in the European sense, from their European hubs? I have always thought hubs for american airlines in Europe were strictly for international flights and hops.
Eastern never had a hub in Europe.
Perhaps you may be confusing them with Delta, Pan Am, United or TWA, as these airlines years ago had hub operations within Europe.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1): They also operated some military charters.
The bulk of the handful of shots in the database of Eastern a/c in Europe are just that. There are two shots of Eastern liveried a/c at the Paris Air Show (JetStar in 1971 and an A300 in 1977.).
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2307 posts, RR: 7 Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3383 times:
I'm trying to understand what the OP thinks he's seeing. I also only found a few EA DC-8s on military charters, the aforementioned LGW flights and a few delivery related flights in the A.net database for Europe. No 727s as he mentions.
Perhaps the OP can confirm his question and we can try to help.
combatshadow From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3183 times:
I'm sorry guys. I was doing some research on Eastern and Pan Am, and got them flip-flopped. WOW, I really botched this question.
The list really goes on and on. Since these were all cross-boarder flights, I believe Pan Am had the right to sell these segments. In fact, none of these routes in the Pan Am timetables have the "No local traffic permitted" notation.
Plus there was the Internal-German network that saw Pan Am service from Berlin to Frankfurt, Hamburg, Munich, Nuremberg and Stuggart that operated mainly with narrow-body aircraft.
skyguyB727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 589 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2884 times:
I flew on a PA 727 FRA-BUD-DBV in the 1980s. The BUD stop was about 45 minutes. I thought about taking some pics from the plane until I saw Hungarian soldiers with big guns walking around the plane on the ramp.
On a side note, PA had a small CTO in DBV. I think it was a one agent operation.
BAViscount From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2338 posts, RR: 4 Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2483 times:
Quoting PI767 (Reply 7): Pan Am, over the years, operated a good number of intra-Europe flights on narrow-bodied aircraft.
I'm assuming they used their own aircraft on those flights? The only reason I mention it is that the 80s was the decade when I did most of my spotting trips to London's airports and I also lived under the flightpath for the 27s at LHR, but I don't recall ever seeing anything but Pan Am widebodies! I'm just wondering how I could have missed their 727s and 737s!!
Ladies & gentlemen this is Captain Tobias Wilcock welcoming you aboard Coconut Airways flight 372 to Bridgetown Barb
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21481 posts, RR: 24 Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2226 times:
Quoting BAViscount (Reply 9): Quoting PI767 (Reply 7):
Pan Am, over the years, operated a good number of intra-Europe flights on narrow-bodied aircraft.
I'm assuming they used their own aircraft on those flights? The only reason I mention it is that the 80s was the decade when I did most of my spotting trips to London's airports and I also lived under the flightpath for the 27s at LHR, but I don't recall ever seeing anything but Pan Am widebodies! I'm just wondering how I could have missed their 727s and 737s!!
Pan Am 103, the 747-100 blown up over Lockerbie in 1988, operated FRA-LHR-JFK. The FRA-LHR sector was a "change-of-gauge" operation with the same flight number but operated by a 727-200.
warden145 From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 426 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2183 times:
You learn something new every day...I didn't know Pan Am ran 737's before today, although I knew about their intra-Europe 727 service. Looking through the photo archives, it looks like nearly all of them were -222's or -297's, which as I understand it indicate that the birds were originally ordered by UA or AQ. 1982 is the earliest firm date from the archives...just curious, does anyone have any more info on the history behind PA's 737's? I understand that PA was allowed to run domestic and short-haul international operations in Europe (IIRC initially as a way to get air service started up quickly in the immediate post-war era)...
catiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2277 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2169 times:
Quoting warden145 (Reply 11): You learn something new every day...I didn't know Pan Am ran 737's before today
It was a mini-controversy too from what I understand. I think I am remembering this correctly --having recently reread Skygods by Robert Gandt which I can not recommend enough-- but the 737s came from Air Florida. This was an issue because the airplanes were a 2 man cockpit, down from the 3 man 727, and also because the CEO at the time, Ed Acker, had just recently come from Air Florida so the perception was he was helping out his old company.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21481 posts, RR: 24 Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2135 times:
Quoting catiii (Reply 12): Quoting warden145 (Reply 11):
You learn something new every day...I didn't know Pan Am ran 737's before today
It was a mini-controversy too from what I understand. I think I am remembering this correctly --having recently reread Skygods by Robert Gandt which I can not recommend enough-- but the 737s came from Air Florida.
Only about half of the 16 732s operated by Pan Am came from Air Florida. They were mostly ex-UA aircraft. The rest came from a variety of sources including several from Canadian regional carriers Pacific Western and Quebecair. I may be wrong but I think most (possibly all) of the Pan Am 732s were leased. They only operated them rather briefly, from 1982-83 until 1985-87 or thereabouts.
Quoting warden145 (Reply 11): I understand that PA was allowed to run domestic and short-haul international operations in Europe
Apart from the IGS (Internal German Services) between what was then West Berlin and other points in Germany, which was the result of the special status of Berlin after WWII with only US, British and French carriers pemitted to operate to/from West Berlin, Pan Am had no domestic rights in Europe.
They had many 5th freedom international rights from the various bilaterals, as did TWA. But those rights didn't permit stand-alone services. All those US carrier services within Europe (apart from West Berlin) had to be tag-on sectors to/from flights originating/terminating in the US. Change-of-gauge was permitted, thus the use of 727s and 737s etc. Few of those tag-on markets had enough demand to warrant operation of a widebody although if memory correct Pan Am did have a small number of A310s based in Europe towards the end of their existence for use on a few of the 5th freedom routes.
BAViscount From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2338 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2077 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10): The FRA-LHR sector was a "change-of-gauge" operation with the same flight number but operated by a 727-200.
I never knew that.
The photos in the database all seem to mainly date from the early 70s, or the late 80s - is that just coincidence, or was there really a sizeable gap in the service?
I'm just amazed that I never noticed a PA 737 or 727 either on the ground at LHR or flying over my Battersea home, especially as I had a bit of a thing about American airlines (in the general sense). I obviously never looked up at the right moment!
Ladies & gentlemen this is Captain Tobias Wilcock welcoming you aboard Coconut Airways flight 372 to Bridgetown Barb
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21481 posts, RR: 24 Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2041 times:
Quoting BAViscount (Reply 14): The photos in the database all seem to mainly date from the early 70s, or the late 80s - is that just coincidence, or was there really a sizeable gap in the service?
I can't recall any gap, but LHR had far fewer of those services than FRA which was Pan Am's major European hub for those tag-on operations. Pan Am's traffic rights beyond LHR were much more restrictive in those days. For example, they operated a tag-on sector LHR-ORY in the 1970s and perhaps beyond but Pan Am had no 5th freedom rights London-Paris.
PI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2031 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10): Pan Am 103, the 747-100 blown up over Lockerbie in 1988, operated FRA-LHR-JFK. The FRA-LHR sector was a "change-of-gauge" operation with the same flight number but operated by a 727-200.
Yes, in fact, the actual routing of flight 103 was Frankfurt-London (727) London-JFK (747) and then JFK-Detroit (back to the 727).
Quoting BAViscount (Reply 14): The photos in the database all seem to mainly date from the early 70s, or the late 80s - is that just coincidence, or was there really a sizeable gap in the service?
combatshadow From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1416 times:
See, I knew you guys could give me some interesting intel and observations.
AwysBSB From Brazil, joined Sep 2005, 513 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1344 times:
If, instead of Pan Am, Eastern Airlines tookover National Airlines late 70's, they could have created a hub in Europe. Perhaps the merged Eastern-National could still be running.
catiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 2277 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1194 times:
Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 18): If, instead of Pan Am, Eastern Airlines tookover National Airlines late 70's, they could have created a hub in Europe. Perhaps the merged Eastern-National could still be running.
How? Maybe if Eastern took over Pan Am they could have. Definitely not if they took over National at that time though. Too many regulatory barriers were in place to prevent it.
PI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1121 times:
Quoting catiii (Reply 19): How? Maybe if Eastern took over Pan Am they could have. Definitely not if they took over National at that time though. Too many regulatory barriers were in place to prevent it.
While I do believe that an Eastern/National merger would have made MUCH more sense, I don't see a combined EA/NA having any sort of hub in Europe. At the time, Eastern didn't serve Europe and National's presence was rather limited.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 7771 posts, RR: 26 Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1023 times:
There was a chance to see Eastern Airlines livery in Europe, LTU and Eastern shared a Tristar which LTU operated in the summers to the Mediterranean destinations while it flew for EA to Florida in the winters. I remember vaguels that it was either all EA or hybrid c/s.
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