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Chile: Latam Go Ahead With Merger  
User currently offlineeastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 10783 times:

Free trade tribunal of Chile approved the merger in on LAN and TAM with some antitrust mitigation measures. Please see article. Sorry only in Spanish, I am searching for a piece in English....

In Spanish...

http://www.latercera.com/noticia/neg...ueba-fusion-de-lan-y-tam-con.shtml


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118 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineeastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 11087 times:

Here is from Bloomberg:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...y-chile-court-with-conditions.html

Some of the mitigation measurements are capping the flight allowance for LATAM on the SCL-GRU and SCL-ASU routes. Shares of LAN and TAM rallied this morning.



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User currently offlineaer From Guatemala, joined Mar 2004, 1048 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 11060 times:

Interesting, the court finding states that the airlines will have to give up one of the alliances and will have to give up code shares with the airlines that aren't part of the alliance that Latam choses.

So let the speculation begin, OW or *A?



nice and spacious airports in need of new airlines and flights... GUA or FRS anyone?... anyone at all?
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8751 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 11019 times:
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Quoting eastern023 (Reply 1):

Also, a ruling from Brazil's top antitrust regulator, CADE, is pending. LAN and TAM will soon belong to one global alliance and both airlines are currently analyzing the mitigation measures.

Quote:
The TDLC will also require that the merged company, which will be called Latam Airlines, to withdraw from one of the global alliances LAN and TAM are currently members of. LAN is a member of the Oneworld global alliance and TAM belongs to the rival Star grouping.
For its part, LAN hailed the approval as a "step forward" for the merger process, but said that along with TAM, it would analyze "the impact of court's proposed mitigation measures."
"As soon as possible, LAN and TAM will publicly announce its position on the TDLC's decision and its different mitigation measures," LAN said in a statement.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/industrie...rust-court-approves-lantam-merger/


User currently offlineeastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 10952 times:

At this point there isn’t much room for speculation. The writing is on the wall in regards to TAM leaving Star Alliance for OneWorld after merging with LAN. I think that alliances knew the probabilities and as Star scrambled to lure AV-TA to come to star and some star airlines started agreements with other carriers to fill the void (i.e.: LH signed agreement with Sky Airlines Chile) Meanwhile OneWorld did…..nothing!…why even worry? Even SkyTeam rushed to get the ehemmm….the scrapes… Aerolineas Argentinas …
I think it is for speculation what is going to happen in South America in regards to carriers coming to the region. This is especially true in Chile as TAM will no longer serve as feeder for other Star airlines. I predict seeing more “star” metal in the region now that Star is left without a real partner on the Southern and South eastern (most profitable) part of South America…Once again, just my humble opinion.



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User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2863 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 10945 times:
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Everyone one on A.net has always bet on OW. But I think about how much work UA just put into training TAM.

But, I guess nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors, huh? We could see a shocker and a move to Star Alliance. But if they leave Star then... Star Alliance and the new UA seem really screwed in Brazil (and other parts of latam) no?,

So will UA need to replace the TAM flights from NY with service to GRU, and GIG? Then flights from IAH to major secondary cities in Brazil?

Fortunately all I need is NY to GRU and GIG. UA just needs to compete with JJ's GIG/JFK non-stop.

Also, it said it's the second largest carrier after Air China. After the merger will UA be the largest or not? I know there are 10 ways to be #1 in the airline business. I'm confused.



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User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11413 posts, RR: 62
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 10923 times:

Wow - from the Bloomberg article:

"Conditions include Lan and Tam opening up their frequent flyer program to other airlines, exiting one of their global alliances and capping Santiago-Sao Paulo fares until they exchange four daily slots in Sao Paulo’s Guarulhos airport with other carriers." (bold emphasis mine)

Competition authorities are mandating that the two companies choose one alliance? That is fascinating. I'm interested to understand the court's thinking on how that particular action would substantially impact competition - if anything, I could have seen the court mandating that they stay in different alliances.

Let the speculation now begin (continue, really) as to which alliance it will be. As I've said, the recent dynamics - particularly U.S.-Brazil Open Skies - lead me to believe that the combined LATAM is oneworld's to lose, but I think Star is not totally out of the picture yet.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2159 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 10897 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
But, I guess nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors, huh? We could see a shocker and a move to Star Alliance. But if they leave Star then... Star Alliance and the new UA seem really screwed in Brazil (and other parts of latam) no?,

...and just imagine the opposite; if they were to choose Star, then O/W would TRULY be screwed in Latin America. There would be nothing - they would fall below even ST.

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
Competition authorities are mandating that the two companies choose one alliance? That is fascinating. I'm interested to understand the court's thinking on how that particular action would substantially impact competition - if anything, I could have seen the court mandating that they stay in different alliances.

Wouldn't that have been exceptionally difficult? Logistically, at least...



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User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11413 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 10852 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
Everyone one on A.net has always bet on OW.

I think the dynamics at play today tend to lean more towards oneworld. First and foremost, the mutual cooperation and investment between AA and LAN is not only far deeper than between United and TAM, but far longer-standing (over a decade). Second, oneworld already has - and either way probably still will have - the strongest non-Latin carrier presence on key traffic flows into/out of South America (i.e., AA will always be the U.S. heavy hitter in the region, and Iberia will always be strong between Europe and at least Spanish South America). And finally, with the U.S. and Brazil now having agreed on a phased approach towards Open Skies, the potential for LAN/TAM to secure an ATI (and possibly JV) with AA between the U.S. and Brazil (along with Chile and perhaps also Colombia and eventually other countries) is enormous - far outweighing the potential with any other prospective U.S. partner.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
But if they leave Star then... Star Alliance and the new UA seem really screwed in Brazil (and other parts of latam) no?,

Not screwed, but United will just have to work harder to capture a portion of the U.S.-Brazil market without much if any direct, on-line (i.e., codeshare) South America feed.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
So will UA need to replace the TAM flights from NY with service to GRU, and GIG? Then flights from IAH to major secondary cities in Brazil?

United will still fly to Brazil from EWR, but likely not JFK.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
Wouldn't that have been exceptionally difficult? Logistically, at least

Well of course it would. But when has that ever stopped governments from mandating such things?  Smile

[Edited 2011-09-21 11:27:58]

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8278 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 10755 times:
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Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
Not screwed, but United will just have to work harder to capture a portion of the U.S.-Brazil market without much if any direct, on-line (i.e., codeshare) South America feed.

Star Alliance will be stronger in North South America with Taca/AV and Copa in the alliance. TACA flies to many US cities including UA hubs. Copa is expanding their US city network too. The Star Allinace needs to coordinate better in Miami as they have done at LHR since TACA, AV, Copa, LH, US and UA all fly there.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8751 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 10712 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 9):
Star Alliance will be stronger in North South America with Taca/AV and Copa in the alliance. TACA flies to many US cities including UA hubs. Copa is expanding their US city network too.

AV Brasil and Aerogal will eventually join Star Alliance alongside AV-TA, plus Copa Airlines and Copa Airlines Colombia. Also, UA is expected to increase flights between North America and South America next year. UA will launch IAH-SCL next year. UA recently launched IAH-LIM this year.


User currently offlineeastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 10666 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
Let the speculation now begin (continue, really) as to which alliance it will be. As I've said, the recent dynamics - particularly U.S.-Brazil Open Skies - lead me to believe that the combined LATAM is oneworld's to lose, but I think Star is not totally out of the picture yet.

I just can't see LAN in Star, especially now that LAN is trying to make a break into Colombia. LAN is going head on against AV on this one. That was the whole point of buying Aires out. Also there's the Qantas situation, QF is opening swapping EZE for SCL to match OneWorld partner's schedule LAN. I cannot see LAN dropping all this to go with Star.

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
First and foremost, the mutual cooperation and investment between AA and LAN is not only far deeper than between United and TAM, but far longer-standing (over a decade).

I cannot agree more, LAN and AA have been building this relationship for years. It is also relevant to mention that LAN is taking over TAM not the other way around.

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
Not screwed, but United will just have to work harder to capture a portion of the U.S.-Brazil market without much if any direct, on-line (i.e., codeshare) South America feed.

Not only Brazil but other thriving Latin American markets such as SCL, LIM and EZE. Traffic numbers are really good coming from these markets.



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User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 10640 times:
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Of course the elephant in the living room is : what happens if the Brazilian authorities agree to the merger but refuse to let JJ join OW? There would be serious anti-competitive issues to be addressed in JJ joining OW - the combination of LATAM with AA and IB in OW has much more serious implications in the Brazilian market than the simple takeover of TAM by LAN does.

If the Brazilian competition authorities veto a move to OW what happens then to JJ? They would be obliged to leave *A under the terms of the agreement ( unless LAN leave OW, which, even as a die-hard *A fan I simply cannot see happening ... and in any case LATAM in *A would be pretty anti-competitive too with CM/P5 and the whole Avianca-Taca group coming on board) but unable to join their new owner in OW. Or does everyone think the regulatory and competition authorities in all applicable countires will simply rubber stamp JJ joining OW without examining or addressing any competition issues at all?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8751 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 10556 times:
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Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 12):

Of course the elephant in the living room is : what happens if the Brazilian authorities agree to the merger but refuse to let JJ join OW? There would be serious anti-competitive issues to be addressed in JJ joining OW - the combination of LATAM with AA and IB in OW has much more serious implications in the Brazilian market than the simple takeover of TAM by LAN does.

Why would the Brazilian authorities block JJ from dumping Star Alliance when LH, AZ, AF/KL, EK, etc. are increasing flights into Brazil? It's funny how you forget to mention TAP's major presence in the Brazilian market and its monopoly on all the routes between Portugal and Brazil. Whereas, JJ and IB are decreasing flights between Brazil and Europe.


User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 10349 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 13):
Why would the Brazilian authorities block JJ from dumping Star Alliance when LH, AZ, AF/KL, EK, etc. are increasing flights into Brazil? It's funny how you forget to mention TAP's major presence in the Brazilian market and its monopoly on all the routes between Portugal and Brazil. Whereas, JJ and IB are decreasing flights between Brazil and Europe.

It would be easy to envision the Brazilian authority blocking any substancial cooperation between TAM & AA, or at least imposing severe mitigation, simply because both companies dominate the Brazil-USA market to level that doesn't allow competition. If you separate their current routes, such as MIA-Brazil, JFK-Brazil, MCO-Brazil & DFW-Brazil, you have pretty much 80 % of the market in your hands. What's left for DL, UA & US??

I'm not saying TAM won't move to OW, but I can see lots of limitation regarding the US market. On the European front, I don't see much trouble, since IB has a small presence in Brazil.


User currently offlineoksman From Brazil, joined Apr 2011, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 10300 times:

For the brazilian international traveller that uses mostly GRU as a main hub, connections to Asia are going to be much more difficult. There are around 10 *A airlines that serve GRU with connections to Asia (SA, LH, LX, TK, SQ, CA, TP, AC, UA, CO), and if JJ joins OW, that would leave us only BA, IB and AA).

User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2159 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 10265 times:

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 15):
What's left for DL, UA & US??

Plenty.

Outside of the markets you mention, you also have:

Sao Paulo:
-YYZ (AC)
-ATL, DTW, JFK (DL)
-IAH, EWR (CO)
-ORD, IAD (UA)
-LAX (KE)

Rio de Janiero:
-IAH (CO)
-ATL (DL)
-IAD (UA)
-CLT (US)

Brasilia
-ATL (DL)

Comparatively, AA has:
-MIA-BSB/CNF/MAO/REC/GIG/GRU/SSA
-DFW-GIG/GRU
-JFK-GIG/GRU

AA may enjoy a larger share of the US-Brasil traffic relative to other North American carriers, but it's definitely not weighted towards 80%, even with TAM thrown in there. Not sure where you are getting this 80% figure from, because it's far from correct.

Also, DL has tried its hand at secondary Brasilian markets from ATL, and pulled out, so you can't argue that it's been unfairly skewed towards AA.



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User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8751 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 10177 times:
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Quoting oksman (Reply 16):
JJ joins OW, that would leave us only BA, IB and AA).

This is why LAN and/or TAM has to fly to ORD from its hubs. At ORD, AA flies to DEL, NRT, PEK, and PVG, CX flies to HKG, and JL flies to NRT. However, considering that AA's network to Asia is very limited and the carrier is facing financial difficulties, LATAM will have to eventually to fly to Asia as well on their own metal.

IMO, AA is going to have shut up and let LATAM fly into more cities in North America. Hopefully LAN can mend the relationship between AA and JJ since the two carriers do not have a cordial relationship, to say the least.

[Edited 2011-09-23 09:17:49 by SA7700]

User currently offlinepdpsol From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1110 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 10186 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 5):
After the merger will UA be the largest or not? I know there are 10 ways to be #1 in the airline business. I'm confused.

The term "largest" refers to the market capitalization of LATAM Holdings. The merger is a stock-for-stock merger, meaning the JJ shareholders will receive shares in LATAM as consideration for LA's acquisition of JJ. LA shareholders will simply receive shares in the new LATAM Holdings for their LA shares on a one-to-one basis. In effect, LA is acquiring JJ by issuing new shares. Therefore, on a combined basis, the market capitalization of LATAM will be approximately USD 12 billion, given today's closing stock prices.

Of course, we all know that a series a legal maneuvers are being planned so that LATAM does not violate current Brazilian law governing corporate control and ownership of national carriers. JJ will have PN preference shares [with a non-voting economic interest] and ON common shares [with purely "political" control and no economic interest]. The current Brazilian family owners of JJ will own the majority of the ON shares, while LATAM will own 100% of the ON shares.


User currently offlineacontador From Chile, joined Jul 2005, 1421 posts, RR: 30
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 10126 times:
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Talking with some people who really should know about what's actually going on in this rather complex operation that is the swap of shares and the new company set-up, they all refer to it as LAN buying TAM rather than a merger. Actually, if you look at the complex shares structure, and more importantly the new board of directors, the influence of LAN in the new merged company surpasses TAM's one. However, in order not to upset neither the Brazilian and Chilean Governments nor the Brazilian public opinion, and in order to make the transition as smooth as possible (we have all seen that it has not been a walk in the park getting the approval by both countries), there is a big smoke screen being employed to hide this fact.

Now, I cannot provide any source nor prove of this, so you can either believe it or not; but I can tell you that everything that has been happening with TAM since the announcement has been fully coordinated with LAN (to say at least) in preparation for TAM joining OW. In the short term both brands will continue to coexist, but I also predict that LAN will slowly try out the response of the public in Brazil towards a LAN Brazil eventually replacing the TAM brand (mid term).



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User currently offlineoksman From Brazil, joined Apr 2011, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 10138 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 18):

You also have CX and JL (out of JFK), QF (soon out of SCL) and potentially even more if AA or LATAM starts flights to ORD or LAX from GRU, or when AA begans serving Asia from MIA.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 19):

This is why LAN and/or TAM has to fly to ORD from its hubs. At ORD, AA flies to DEL, NRT, PEK, and PVG, CX flies to HKG, and JL flies to NRT. However, considering that AA's network to Asia is very limited and the carrier is facing financial difficulties, LATAM will have to eventually to fly to Asia as well on their own metal.

I see your point, but I guess the quickest way to get to Asia from GRU would be via JNB, and that is a no go, except if JJ starts JNB with the stored A345s, wich I think is very unlikely.


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2690 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 10116 times:

Does anyone think AA's financial situation would weigh into this decision given that one of the biggest reasons to stay with oneworld is AA and MIA? Of course, JAL's situation is also terrible. Isn't QF, BA & IB's financial situation also weak? It seems like CX and LA are the only two financially strong OneWorld majors right now. I am just curious to how that might affect LA's decision, I wouldn't want to stick to a sinking ship...

User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1607 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 10069 times:

Quoting oksman (Reply 22):
I see your point, but I guess the quickest way to get to Asia from GRU would be via JNB, and that is a no go, except if JJ starts JNB with the stored A345s, wich I think is very unlikely.

That very much depends on where you're going (obviously Asia is a very large continent). For example, JFK lies almost directly on the great circle route between GRU and NRT.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8751 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 10331 times:
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Quoting oksman (Reply 22):
I see your point, but I guess the quickest way to get to Asia from GRU would be via JNB, and that is a no go, except if JJ starts JNB with the stored A345s, wich I think is very unlikely.

LAN and TAM have both publicly stated that they would like to start new routes to both Europe and Africa via Brazil. LAN will definitely fly to Europe via Brazil. LAN plans on deploying B-787-8s on certain routes to Europe next year; which could free up some A-343s. LAN could fly SCL-GRU-JNB with the A-343s until the B-787-9s start to arrive into LAN's fleet.


User currently offlineoksman From Brazil, joined Apr 2011, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 10242 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 24):
That very much depends on where you're going (obviously Asia is a very large continent). For example, JFK lies almost directly on the great circle route between GRU and NRT.

You are right. Actually I meant southeast asia.


25 Post contains links SCL767 : Visit the LATAM Airlines website at http://www.latamairlines.com/index_en.html and look at the LAN-TAM Investor Presentation (pg.14). Four primary gro
26 LHRFlyer : The overall financial position of IAG (BA & IB) is strong. It has the lowest net debt of the European majors. As is the financial position of Qan
27 EddieDude : Well, AA and IB are quite strong in South America, so oneworld would maintain a decent presence. What they will lack is intra-South America connectiv
28 Dellatorre : Comparing what DL+UA+US will have against JJ+AA is silly. American and TAM are by far the leading companies. Serious government intervention will be
29 SCL767 : LAN has 5 A-343s and will most likely drop the tag-on to FRA on the SCL-MAD route, which will be operated with the B-787s. LAN is increasing connecti
30 EddieDude : PTY is better located to connect Chicago with South America than LIM. It would be interesting to know how much unserved demand really exists to deter
31 SCL767 : LIM is strategically located to offer pax connections traveling to/from the Southern Cone. Flights from the Southern Cone into the LIM hub are shorte
32 RCS763AV : I'm glad that the merger was given a go ahead with strict competition measures, as should be. businesses should always be allowed to thrive and consol
33 Post contains links and images SCL767 : LAN plans on increasing capacity between LIM and JFK by dropping the SCL-LIM sector on LA530/LA531. Thus, LAN Airlines will offer SCL-JFK daily (B763)
34 gemuser : Pardon my ignorance, but could you please define what you mean by "Southern cone"? Thanks Gemuser
35 SCL767 : The Souther Cone geographically represents parts of Southern and Southeast Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Paraguay, and Uruguay.
36 gemuser : So more or less following the Peru-Chile, Bolivia-Chile/Argentina/Paraguay boarders, then due east to about Vitoria, Brazil. Yeah that makes sense an
37 SCL767 : LAN and TAM have a significant presence in the Southern Cone for obvious reasons with subsidiaries in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, and Paraguay. Also, e
38 Post contains images flythere : It is based on the market value, simply the stock price times the number of stocks issued. Nto necessarily reflecting the operational size of a carri
39 SCL767 : Hopefully LAN will operate a SCL-GRU-JNB service. At JNB, domestic and regional connections are available with MN. MH also operates KUL-JNB and CX op
40 Post contains links SCL767 : Lufthansa interested in establishing a joint venture with the fusion of LATAM: Royal Bank of Scotland Analyst, Andrew Lobbenberg, states that Lufthans
41 kiwiandrew : I can certainly understand LH and *A trying to do everything they can to keep JJ on board, but I simply don't see them managing to convince LAN to ju
42 SCL767 : I agree, it's very interesting to note that one alliance has remained very quiet about the combination between LAN and TAM and that alliance's carrie
43 UAL777UK : Yep, sadly I think JJ days in Star are numbered. I just cannot see the combined carriers anywhere other than on Oneworld. That said I am a great advoc
44 C010T3 : Wow, how original, just like my idea from months ago to form a joint-venture to buy TAP.
45 Dellatorre : Regarding the whole LIM hub discussion, i personally think LIM has a good potential for a HUB to US west coast, central america and Northwest of South
46 simairlinenet : Aviation Daily is also reporting additional terms but gave no real details: -Support cabotage? Isn't this the government's decision, not LAN's? -Open
47 RCS763AV : I detect some confusion here, the TDLC in Chile has made them go to oneworld as one of the conditions is staying in a different alliance than AV-TA o
48 commavia : Interesting - had not heard that. Do you have a link/source on that? If this is, indeed, such a "100%" done-deal, as you're saying, then why are the
49 EddieDude : My original post was about Chicago to South America, not specifically the Southern Cone. If you recall, we were discussing possible flights to ORD by
50 LAXdude1023 : Interesting developments. I feel pretty strongly that if it is as easy as simply choosing an alliance, they would choose OneWorld. The reason being is
51 IrishAyes : Why are you suggesting the comparison idea is silly when you were the one who brought it up initially?? You're forgetting that DL and UA (I'm also no
52 LAXdude1023 : Really? Did they actually say that?
53 Post contains links RCS763AV : Read condition six if you may, (only in spanish for the time being) http://www.estrategia.cl/detalle_noticia.php?cod=44972 Not only can they not join
54 EddieDude : Wow, good catch. So, unless AV/TA goes nuts and abandons its Star Alliance accession process (which I clearly do not expect to happen), it is quite cl
55 Dellatorre : I guess I used the wrong term. I meant silly in the way of pointless, like the difference is so clear that there was no need to highlight it. Since I
56 aer : Very interesting since they don't view CM/P5 as a deterrent. So Either AV/TA is out of *A or JJ goes to OW? Wonder what UA and LH would think.
57 EddieDude : I suppose Star Alliance was prepared to see JJ join oneworld and that is why they went after CM, AV and TA (remember SkyTeam wanted AV too).
58 IrishAyes : 6) Latam deberá renunciar, dentro de un plazo que no exceda 24 meses contados desde la fecha en que se materialice la Operación consultada, al menos
59 Dellatorre : AA and JJ used to have an code-share agreement that came to a conclusion under not very friendly terms. Since then, both companies became rivals on t
60 RCS763AV : I guess their networks don't overlap that much. If united under the same umbrella, Star would have a de facto monopoly in Perú and all of Central Am
61 SCL767 : Perú has Open Skies Treaties with Argentina, Brazil, Chile, the U.S. etc. and LA/JJ would like to increase competition in Latin America by offering
62 VC10er : What is missing the most is an EWR (NYC) TO GIG non-stop like JJ and AA (but That's JFK) but If you are a Star NEEDER, as I am, the CO flight doesnt e
63 SCL767 : How many destinations do AV-TA and CM serve in Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Perú, the E.U. etc.?
64 RCS763AV : From PTY: EZE, COR, MVD, ASU, VVI, GRU, GIG, POA, CNF, MAO, SCL and LIM, soon REC. From BOG: EZE, LPB, GRU, GIG, SCL, LIM. From LIM: EZE, MVD, ASU, V
65 SCL767 : Destinations served by LAN and its passenger affiliates with-in South America, (excluding Bolivia, Brazil, Uruguay, and Venezuela): Argentina: AEP, BH
66 Post contains images kiwiandrew : I wonder how many people in ATL and CDG are sitting waiting and praying for the Brazilian authorities to say that LATAM can go ahead......but the com
67 SCL767 : Clearly LAN and TAM have a massive presence in the Southern Cone as compared to AV-TA and CM. LAN is already beginning to place the LA code on Aires'
68 The777Man : Hi ! Bad desicion. LatAm will be more dominant in South American than AA and UA merger in the USA or BA and AF in Europe, none which be allowed in tho
69 Post contains links SCL767 : Chile-Approval of LAN takeover of TAM beneficial: Chile--Approval of LAN takeover of TAM beneficial LAN's purchase of TAM is good news for Qantas in C
70 Post contains links SCL767 : That may be a strong possibility. LATAM may seek to acquire TAP Portugal in the future and may seek JVs with either IAG or the Lufthansa Group. LAN w
71 Post contains images LH506 : Thinking about it, I am pretty sure that Latam will opt for 1W. So what does this mean for *A? 1. Northern South America: Colombia: Great Coverage wit
72 RCS763AV : The AIRES network will not be making part of LAN's integrated network until the 4th quarter of this year or the first quarter of 2012. Also, at least
73 2travel2know2 : Big questions remain, like: What would happen in those places where LA group and JJ already have separate presence? Highly doubtful LATAM will integra
74 SCL767 : Reduces overhead at many stations; however LA/JJ will still require more employees due to fleet and route expansion. AV-TA will of course dominate BO
75 jetlanta : Isn't there one other factor being overlooked here? LATAM into oneworld likely pushes Gol into SkyTeam in the next few years. As a result of this dev
76 EddieDude : They probably cannot be replaced. Star carriers do not offer anything that could replace the AA MIA hub and the IB MAD hub. I am not too confident ab
77 RCS763AV : Haven't you heard about BOG's completely new terminal opening in 2014 and the measures being taken by the government to further expand the airport, i
78 commavia : You think LAN/TAM may end up going to Star (forming a JV with Lufthansa)?
79 LAXdude1023 : Appearantly, they cant. See below:
80 SCL767 : Well aware of the delays surrounding the expansion of BOG. Hopefully the expansion process will not be delayed again. Really? What about Argentina, B
81 jetlanta : You haven't done the math, obviously. Taking a look at the April 2012 schedules as loaded in OAG for all of Latin America, here is what it would look
82 Viscount724 : EU foreign (non-EU) ownership restrictions wouldn't permit that.
83 SCL767 : With LATAM Airlines Group finally gaining approval from the TDLC, the entire aviation scenario in Latin America will drastically change with further
84 jetlanta : Which would even further intensify the advantage that OW and ST have over Star. Of course this theory is predicated on Gol eventually ending up in Sk
85 EddieDude : I agree with you because, on paper, the facts are very compelling. The problem is that Gol does not offer too much in terms of international service,
86 jetlanta : The fact that Gol doesn't offer international service today is actually a positive for the rest of the carriers in any alliance they may end up in. O
87 SCL767 : There aren't many carriers left in South America that are unaligned. G3 operates mostly regional flights in the Southern Cone and has a big presence
88 C010T3 : They can if AV-TA is deterred from joining Star. That never happened. Neither does TAM.
89 LAXdude1023 : I dont see that happening.
90 Post contains links jetlanta : CAPA has an analysis of this on their website today. Its decent, but I think they dismiss the idea of Gol joining an alliance too easily, based on pas
91 kiwiandrew : Does anyone know when the Brazilian competition authorities are expected to announce their ruling? If they decide to take a leaf out of their Chilean
92 C010T3 : It's unlikely, but you never know.
93 jfk777 : IF LATAM went to Star all three airlines in Colombia would be in Star; Avianca, Copa and LAN. IN Central America TACA and Copa would be in Star too.
94 PPVRA : Azul and VCP can provide connections to whoever loses TAM and GOL. Nowhere near as big as GRU/GIG, but useful nonetheless. From North America, I don'
95 C010T3 : VCP has and will continue to have trash yields for years to come. It's simply not viable for now.
96 RCS763AV : I have done the math, and of course seat wise skyteam would have a lot more capacity on offer. Now the problem would be actually coordinating a malfu
97 Bogota : Sorry to contradict you but the original plan did not include the demolision of the existing terminal. The new international terminal plus all the ne
98 C010T3 : What do you mean? G3's network in Argentina is more extensive than JJ's, for example. Yes, G3 abandoned LIM and BOG, but JJ's presence in those marke
99 SCL767 : Aires does not hold the all the frequencies, (two other Colombian carriers hold a lot of unused frequencies) and just received its IOSA certification
100 LipeGIG : Bravo ! I always imagine Latam as a OW member as it makes far more sense since the first info become available. Not a surprise for me. I raised this p
101 SCL767 : There is competition on the LIM-GRU route between LA/JJ and TA. In fact, TA operates more flights between LIM and Brazil compared to LA/JJ, is that a
102 kiwiandrew : I agree with you on that. I never said that they would ( even before the Chilean ruling made such a thing impossible) But I don't know why you seem s
103 SCL767 : LA didn't have to divest flights by the TDLC. LA had to release 4 weekly flights operating with Fifth Freedom Rights via LIM, which means that LA wil
104 kiwiandrew : I'm not talking about the TDLC, I am talking about the Brazilian competition authority, which has yet to release their findings on the proposed LATAM
105 SCL767 : MIA is where most South Americans travel to; hence the number of flights between South America and MIA. If the CADE demands that AA or JJ drop a dail
106 LipeGIG : Considering Sao Paulo-Lima, its 21 weekly service for Latam and 10 to TA. You may be right, but it could be a term of adjustment in which they would
107 SCL767 : LATAM: LIM-GRU 18x weekly Currently LP operates LIM-GRU 10x weekly and JJ operates GRU-LIM 7x weekly. LP will operate LIM-GRU 11x weekly starting in
108 RCS763AV : G3 is only larger than TAM is Argentina. Its doesn't matter that TAM's presence in Colombia and Perú is recent, but that G3 was driven out of the ma
109 LipeGIG : Thanks i didn't noticed that they reduced from 3x daily to 18x weekly. So it make sense to not create any restriction on LIM-GRU, but i keep my view
110 Post contains links SCL767 : Interesting to note that Europe-Brazil would be dominated by Star due to TAP, (the largest carrier between Europe and Brazil) combined with CA, LH, L
111 LipeGIG : Not as much as OW dominance on Brazil-US. Market will be shared by Star and OW to Europe and i believe both will have similar market size. TAM is alm
112 C010T3 : No, G3 was driven out by themselves and somewhat by local competitors. G3 and JJ never competed at LIM and G3 was already in the process of withdrawi
113 RCS763AV : That's where you're wrong, the international network does matter to partners as it also feeds their overseas hubs. Even so, TAM's network is larger t
114 C010T3 : It's barely larger and is concentrated in capitals that already enjoy enough service to North America and Europe. JJ only offers MVD, ASU, AGT and SC
115 RCS763AV : Oh but there is. WN also offers a rich network. They are not interesting for any alliance since they don't offer connecting flights or a first class
116 C010T3 : G3 is not WN. They do offer connecting flights, codeshare, FFP and even tier status. One-stop service is more convenient and comfortable than connect
117 Dellatorre : I find this debate over TAM versus GOL quite pointless, since it's obvious who has the advantage in the Southern cone. After LATAM is officially born
118 Post contains links SCL767 : LAN Airlines said on Tuesday a Chilean anti-trust ruling on its planned multi-billion dollar takeover of Brazil's TAM was flawed, and continues to stu
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