Steman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1432 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 24742 times:
The article says that LH has 15 options but I recall the options being only 5. Fifteen is the number of firm orders, of which 8 have been delivered so far.
If the options are just 5, it is highly probable that they will be all converted into firm orders, maybe for delivery after 2014/15
But I do not expect the fleet to grow over 20 examples, especially when there will be 20 (+20 options) B747-8i.
Still a big fleet!
EPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 5489 posts, RR: 39
Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 24390 times:
Quoting Steman (Reply 6): The article says that LH has 15 options but I recall the options being only 5.
As far as I can tell you are correct. On Wikipedia (not always the most reliable source) it is also stated that LH has only 5 options. Personally I thought they had 15 + 15 for their A380's (and 20 + 20 for their B748i's).
So it might be that is what they are negotiating about. Order more additional A380's then they hold options for. .
Baroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 23520 times:
Quoting par13del (Reply 9): Quoting EPA001 (Reply 1):
is quite telling I would say. But LH is "just" another customer who is very, very satisfied with the performance and the experience the A380 is delivering.
Why the smilie, if the a/c is good its good.
You probably went over the weekly quota for observing that someone actually likes the A380 EPA100.
That LH likes it is good, but of itself not that much more remarkable than SQ. Where are the latest ones in the "slimming program"?
atnight From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 624 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 23164 times:
I for one hope the LH A380 fleet grows... Give it more time, the A380 will become more popular among all its operators and the order book will keep on growing.... I don't know why everyone loves to stick to the past... the A380 is the way of the present and future in VLA... I honestly think that LH won't be needing all 748i, and I wouldn't be surprised they don't take all 20 and instead use the A380 more... once they receive the aircraft, we'll know for sure what LH decides...
Hope to see more A380 with LH and looking forward to flying on one soon.
carls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 22922 times:
Quoting ju068 (Reply 3): Could this influence their committment to the new 747 in the future?
I think so, If the 748 i has the same performance shortage that the 748F has it could lead LH to reject the plane just like Cargolux and Atlas are doing. While I do not know what the shortages are and I believe no body knows other then Boeing and Cargolux it could easily be that they are replicated in the passenger version too; pushing Boeing to either cancel the order due to the delay or just refusing to receive it.
Semaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 898 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 22476 times:
Quoting carls (Reply 14): I think so, If the 748 i has the same performance shortage that the 748F has it could lead LH to reject the plane just like Cargolux and Atlas are doing. While I do not know what the shortages are and I believe no body knows other then Boeing and Cargolux it could easily be that they are replicated in the passenger version too; pushing Boeing to either cancel the order due to the delay or just refusing to receive it.
I think you were referring to the Airline (LH in this case) rather than Boeing in your last sentence.
It would be quite interesting to see what the Boeing/Lufthansa 748i contract states regarding the issue of overweight/underperformance and LH's right to step back from the order.
Of course, it will probably boil down to the price dropping rather than LH cancelling the order, even though Boeing might make a loss on the 20 frames then. There is nothing worse for an OEM than it's launch costumer backing-off!
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
EPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 5489 posts, RR: 39
Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 22280 times:
Quoting Semaex (Reply 15): though Boeing might make a loss on the 20 frames then
With the launch discounts on the one side, and the enormous cost overruns on this program on the other side, I am guessing that Boeing will make a loss on these airplanes anyway. I think and hope LH will accept the B748i, and it will put a smile on my face if I see it in the around FRA where I frequently am for business. .
Ronaldo747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 21377 times:
1. LH has already stated that the 747-8i will doing well on the routes that is planned for. There will be no surprise prior delivery. And LH has no Al-Baker in the gremiums ....
2. Due to the stretched overdeck the 747-8i has better aerodynamics so the fuel burn issues will be partly outweighed. In the course of time and the further improvements the performance will be better than already expected and there are no doubts that LH will also exercise the options as well.
3. It's highly doubtful that LH is really seriously interested in A380-900s.
EPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 5489 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 21318 times:
Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 20): It's highly doubtful that LH is really seriously interested in A380-900s.
Well, maybe, maybe not. But it is highly doubtful that anybody can pre-order an A380-900 already or any time soon. I expect that to happen at the earliest in 2015 with and EIS close to 2020. But that is just my expectation, so I could be totally wrong or right. .
ukoverlander From United Kingdom, joined May 2010, 480 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 20597 times:
Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 20): 2. Due to the stretched overdeck the 747-8i has better aerodynamics so the fuel burn issues will be partly outweighed.
I seriously doubt that this will make any significant difference in the big picture given that any advantages this might give will already have been calculated and factored into Boeing pre-delivery guarantees for the passenger version.
Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 20): and there are no doubts that LH will also exercise the options as well.
And you know this how exactly?
Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 20): 3. It's highly doubtful that LH is really seriously interested in A380-900s.
Again do you have any fact to back this up or this this just speculation and personal preference dressed up as certitude????
flyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 642 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 20510 times:
I can easily imagine, that there will be no single order for A380. If so we may see the A380 together with A350s.
Also: I could imagine that LH may also trade their early birds on the used plane market after some 7-10 years and may achieve a fairly good price, given the previous discounts. They may want to get a good price for the next batch and may want that to secure rather now then later.
Or: I wouldn't be surprised if they would even be Launch customer for the recently mentioned 389.
: Could they put a proper C product in it now? The hard product is a disgrace.
: Glad to see LH and the 380 doing well to the point of additional orders! Hopefully we will see this lovely bird at ORD one day in LH livery!
: I thought the topic was about LH adding more A380-800s, but since you asked, LH have already said that the 747-8 meets all contractual performance gu
: It would be very nice to see ORD-FRA on 1X 748, 1X380, ORD-MUC on 346, ORD-DUS on 333, and ORD-Berling on something!
: With that username I also find it highly doubtful that you would believe that LH is interested in the A380-900
: Knowing they've sold 2 Y class tickets to FRA and back will undoubtedly tip them over the edge and force the purchase.
: LH has already been on record the past day or so stating that the Cargolux and Atlas situations will have no bearing on their decisions regarding the
: I think LH wants more A380's because its routes from FRA to JFK, LAX and SFO demand such a big plane almost year-round (try getting a ticket on the FR
: Sorry if this might sound stupid but what kind of routes are destined to be served by a 747-8? And why? Is the A380 to big for them or is there some
: I would even say that passengers are falling in love with the A380 and in general what i see is that many accept to pay a premium to fly the (very) b
: You can call it "wet dreams" of some airbus fan boys that LH will cancel it's 747-8i. No doubt the A380 is a good plane. But the 747-8i will also be
: They will not cancel their order, but maybe some of their options. (And convert them to the new B777-9X) There are rumours about good expected result
: At the price LH is getting these 748i's, it'd be a crime if they rejected their delivery LH has a huge gap between the A346 and the A388. They need a
: Yep, that's why I think that they'll stick with their 20 748. (unless they get a sweet price for 777NG instead)
: Good to hear the A380 is performing so well. And good to hear, that LH is optimistic enough to consider more orders. Lets see regarding the options. M
: That is exactly what I am expecting regarding LH's future fleet as well.
: Very good to hear LH considers ordering more A380s. So more than 1100 pax 777s have been ordered simply because someone ordered 34 frames in 1990. Wha
: So is this type comment of them being a leader a ringing endorsement of Boeing's decision to make the 748i? I only ask because we are in an A380 disc
: Theory? What theory? You want to understand me wrong, do you? I of cause mean anyone ordering 777s NOW is a me-too-airline. With so many ordered you
: For all of the Airbus fans who are anticipating LH being disappointed in the 748i, remember that the A380 fuel burn also missed targets initially, and
: You can twist it how much you want, but the 777 has proven to be an excellent aircraft - and that's why airlines have ordered it. Performance is the
: It's LH, they are happy with the A346 which according to many people here on the forum is a piece of junk that should be put to death sooner rather t
: This is a past tense statement, which validates exactly what he was saying. The 777 "has been" a fantastic aircraft. But its time is coming to an end
: I don't think there are to many people that do not accept it... the question is whether the 748i can bring the crowds like the A380 can. I cannot tel
: I didn't deny that. I was simply pointing out why airlines have ordered the 777. PH
: Well I can tell you from experience right now. The biggest reason (bigger than comfort) the A380 is so interesting, is it's *wait for it* size! I can
: Yes, please! It's a good thing that LH is liking their planes b/c I remember an airline magazine article stating LH didn't get everything they wanted
: I'm glad to read that LH is considering more A380s. They're a great airline and can put the A380 to good use. For the customers, yes. For Airbus's acc
: Well said! No doubt about that, it's a matter of time. And more and more people will realize that the A380 doesn't necessarily offer more comfort tha
: No, this is no novelity effect, these people are impressed by its size, to see this giant ("THE biggest airliner" was told to them) or having the ple
: I will not find the link so quickly but I remember very well an interview with a senior LH fleet manager and he stated that LH would be interested if
: Tell that to CX, SQ and BA who have just topped up their 'me-too-airplanes'.... If it "was" a fantastic airplane why are carriers such as CX, EK,QR,
: I think you fail to see the topic of this thread. I go as far as saying that you might just be a little biased. In any case, please be aware that thi
: So prior to the A380 being the largest commercial pax a/c were people all over the world lining up whenever a 747 pulled up at their airport? The Con
: If its the de facto standard plane in its class (which it isn't) then the past-tense "was" is thoroughly incorrect.
: Why so grudging? Why so sour? Yes, airlines will make a big song and dance about flying the 787 (here in Japan ANA already are) and so they should. N