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How Big Was Pan AM?  
User currently offlineDeltaOwnsAll From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1173 posts, RR: 1
Posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2588 times:

How big was Pan AM as compared to the modern day major airlines like Delta, American, and United? How many planes did they have in their fleet? If they weren't the major U.S. domestic carrier when they were around who was in the 80s? Thanks for any info  Smile
DeltaOwnsAll

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNotar520AC From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1606 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2334 times:

As of the year 1991 they had 688 aircraft in their fleet, all given "clipper" names.

-Notar520AC



BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
User currently offlineSkyhawk From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1066 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

A lot depends on what you mean by "big"? Do you mean strictly the amount of aircraft they had? That has been answered. But do you mean big as in relation to their importance to the aviation industry as a whole? Most everybody knows that they set many firsts throughout their life, around the world speed flight, first commercial 747, etc. Big company, known around the world to many third world countries as the USA.

User currently offlineJohnnybgoode From Germany, joined Jan 2001, 2187 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2250 times:

688 aircraft??????
could anyone share some info on their domestic network? i mean, i know they had no big coverage but there certainly were some major domestic routes...

i certainly believe the figure of 688 aircraft but where did they place all of them? some in berlin, i know...

rgds
daniel



If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6483 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2232 times:

I have a hard time with 688 aircraft in the Pan Am fleet in 1991. Do you have a breakdown of the type? Pan Am did have the shuttle at that time, but the rest of their domestic network was fairly thin.

User currently offline777gk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1641 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2224 times:

Pan Am's domestic network was simply set up to feed its international services. It gained a lot more territory in the 1979 acquisition of National Airlines, but it never became the large domestic player that Eastern, Delta, or United was at the time. Of course, Pan Am was the undisputed leader of international service, with TWA following somewhat close behind.

User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2210 times:

PA had tried to merge with TWA in the 1970s to get domestic routes among other international routes but the CAB put an end to that. Currently UAL and AA are much larger that PA at it's peak. Before the AA/TW merger UA was cosidered by some as Earth's largest airline.


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineFTraveler From United States of America, joined May 2001, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2184 times:

Pan Am's domestic presence was miniscule compared to its extensive international network which included major cities in North America, Asia, Africa, South America and Europe. Pan Am also owned Inter-Continental hotels. I would venture to say that at its peak, Pan Am actually flew to more international destinations than any other carrier in commercial aviation history.

User currently offlineDeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2160 times:

688 a/c for Pan Am is wrong.

While I have no exact figures, common logic dictates the fleet was no bigger than 200-250 a/c. As of 91 they were in serious, serious trouble and were selling assets left and right. They only narrowbodies they had were 727s and 737s. There definetly was not a combination of 688 Airbuses, 747s and 727/737s.

Also keep in mind they did not have any domestic hubs but focus cities, the biggest of which was JFK in 91.

To answer the original question, the major players in the 80s were Eastern, United, Delta, American and to a lesser extent Continental, Western, TWA and Pan AM. The 80s were a crazy time and deregulation was the begining of the end for Pan Am. Unfortunately they just didn't move as fast as all the others in making strategic decisions for routes, fleet and image.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9185 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2159 times:

Panam was about the same size as today's Delta, or a bit smaller even.

User currently offlineDeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1654 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2151 times:

I don't think Pan Am was that big. Their route network was nowhere near what DL's is today. They had a big operation at JFK and spotty service everywhere else in the US. In order to be near the size of DL they would have been operating at least 3 major hubs, coast to coast.

Also remember, Pan Am sold the Pacific routes to UAL in 85, this considerably shrunk the airline.


User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2137 times:

Don't forget about PA's other gateway to South america and Carribean...MIA. Remeber that PA had a huge hub but they were based out of MIA. JFK served as a second home. Then it was their euro hub FRA. The JFK and their Euro hub of FRA all went to DL which explains their large presence at the two airports.


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineTan flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1909 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

Sorry Guys, I don't think Pan Am even had more than 100-120 aircraft in the mid-80's.
I used to have a website that gave a lot of history, though it was in German.

To the best of my memory, in the mid-80's(before the Pacific div went to UA) the fleet would have been somthing on ther order of:
35-42 747's inc the SP"s
12-14 L-1011-500's
25-30 727's
10-15 A-310s?
and I think there were a few 737's leased from someone.
thats it.Remember the domestic side was only feed to JFK & MIA. many flights stopped at 2 cities before JFK..ie: IND-CLE-JFK

I'll do some more looking when I have time.


User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6296 posts, RR: 33
Reply 13, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2114 times:

Pan Am never had 688 aircraft in the fleet at one time. 250-300 is most likely. If necessary I can provide exact figures for any date from the 60s until the demise.
As for it's size. In terms of route network it was huge. Much more extensive than any other international carrier, with the exception of todays BA. True RPK could noy compare to UA,AA,DL,NW,WN etc of today, but we must remember that Pan Ams heyday was the sixties and seventies. Times have changed.

Steve



Damn, this website is getting worse daily.
User currently offlineACVITALE From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2093 times:

As a former Pan Am employee I can provide you with some stats.

Pan Am flew more people accross the Atlantic in the late 1980s then all other carriers combined.

Pan Am had ownership in over 190 other airlines during it's years including but not limited to Aviesca, Mexicana, LAB, TAP, Aerolineas Argentinas and many others

In 1991 Pan Am mainline had approx 129 aircraft, Pan Am Express had approx 34 aircraft prior to the Delta European route sale.

Pan Am was at it's peak in the 1960s and 1970s when it had service accross the globe. During that period Pan Am and it's subsidies had 712 aircraft ranging from twin otters to 747s.

Pan Am was the largest international carrier. Eastern was the largest domestic carrier. TWA was also large. It is amazing how far and how fast these carriers fell from grace.


User currently offlineNotdownnlocked From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 936 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2083 times:

Don't forget that while PA flew all over the world the US government did not allow them to fly US domestic passenger carrying routes before deregulation. Just an example is the route they had in 1976 from HNL-DFW-JFK they couldn't carry PAX from DFW to JFK. Others for example are PDX-SEA, LAX-SFO(747 9flights a week), TPA-MIA, DTW-BOS and many others on the domestic routes. These examples are from only one timetable alone. Had PA been allowed to build a domestic system before all the other airlines were allowed to fly internationally on PA's routes I think PA would no doubt be here today as the original and not Pan Am Mark III the re-incarnate.

User currently offlineSkyhawk From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1066 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2068 times:

If I am not mistaken, when Notdownlocked said PAA wasn't allowed to carry pas from DFW-JFK as the continuation from HNL, I believe that only referred to persons getting on in DFW. The people from HNL could go all the way to JFK. As far as them(PAA) being able to still exist if they had been allowed to create a domestic system, I don't agree. I say that as a former FA for them. The powers in charge - Juan Trippe, William Sewell, Edward Acker - in their days raped the company completely. For example, on the 747 in the First Class section we always carried a fresh floral arrangement on each flight. Just a way to make that section look a little more like home. Anyway, William Sewell's wife received a reported $90,000 salary per year just to pick out the flowers we would use. Can you believe that? Just constant episodes like that one. One more, Edward Acker's wife - on a trip to Nice, France there was about 6 or 7 bottles of champagne left on the plane, she told the head purser(a friend of mine) that she wanted to take the rest of it with her to their house. He asked her to sign for it as we had to keep track of all liquor on the plane. She didn't want to do that. Talk about cheap! With her money she could buy the finest of French champagnes but she would rather take the companies property(and before someone says her husband owned PAA so she should be allowed to take what she wanted, Acker did not "own" PAA, he was simply an employee just like the rest of us. If any of the rest of us had taken champagne, we would have been fired on the spot.) By the way some of the champagne was Rose' and she drank it on ice! P.S. She didn't get to take the champagne.

User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2059 times:


Major (i.e. more than 50 planes) North American airlines´ fleets as of spring 1991:
(If you want to go straight to Pan Am - they´re number 8.)

1st AA - 552
2 747SP
3 MD11
59 DC10
25 A300-600
15 767-300
30 767-200
35 757-200
153 757-200
220 MD82
10 MD83

2nd US - 478
9 767-200
45 727-200
31 MD81/82
74 DC9-31/32
52 737-400
103 737-300
80 737-200
18 BAe 146-200
22 F100
44 F28

3rd UA - 475
8 747-400
27 747-100/200
11 747SP
55 DC10
17 DC8-71
19 767-200
30 757-200
125 727-200
100 737-300
9 737-500
72 737-200

4th DL - 410
19 L1011-200
10 L1011-500
4 DC8-71
24 767-300
15 767-200
61 757-200
130 727-200
37 MD88
36 DC9-32
13 737-300
61 737-200

5th CO - 355
9 747-200
17 DC10
17 A300B4
112 727-200
65 MD81/82/83
35 DC9-32
7 DC9-14
55 737-300
38 737-100/200

6th NW - 344
10 747-400
32 747-200
20 DC10
33 757-200
12 A320-200
71 727-200
8 MD82
158 DC9-14/15/31/32/51

7th TW - 215
19 747-100/200
35 L1011
11 767-300
69 727-100/200
33 MD88
48 DC9-15/31/32/41

8th PA - 163
34 747-100/200
13 A300B4
23 A310-200/300
93 727-200

9th AC - 119
6 747-100/200
14 L1011
21 767-200
10 A320-200
33 727-200
35 DC9-32

10th WN - 104
48 737-300
10 737-500
46 737-200

11th HP - 103
4 747-200
10 757-200
6 A320-200
37 737-300
34 737-200
12 DHC8-100

12th CP - 97
2 747-400
11 DC10
8 310-300
12 767-300
4 320-200
60 737-200

13th MID - 71
5 MD83
4 MD82
6 MD87
37 DC9-30
9 DC9-15
10 737-200

14th AS - 66
30 727-200
29 MD82/83
7 737-200


The times, they are a´changing - and so are the fleets, aren´t they?

Hope this helps,

Daniel Smile


User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 34
Reply 18, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2041 times:

Oh, and, by the way, PA destinations as of spring 91 included roughly 60 North American, 30 Caribbean/South/Central American, 30 European cities as well as Nairobi, Bombay and Delhi.

Daniel Smile


User currently offlineACVITALE From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2013 times:

While the fleet list in 1991 looks ok it is incorrect. It shows the 727-100s that Pan Am had but, was not flying. It also neglects to show the 6 then later 4 737-200s these were used on routes like MIA-ATL-JFK-ATL-MIA and SFO-LAX-SFO and MIA-MCO-IAD-MCO-MIA and others.

Al


User currently offlineNotar520AC From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1606 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2000 times:

Ok, so maybe the site was wrong or something- it listed all of the aircraft Pan American Airlines had since they started, not saying they were all in service! Also, Pan Am loaned, sold, and did joint opperations with other major airlines with their aircraft suggesting the "difference" in our sources.

-Notar520AC



BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
User currently offlineIflewrepublic From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 537 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1978 times:

The success of airlines such as Pan American World Airways, Eastern Airlines, and Braniff International was their ultimate undoing. They all grew too big too fast and were unable to find ways of fending off the death blows of deregulation.

One more thing, just thought I should point out that Northwest's combined fleet of leased and owned aircraft totaled somewhere in the neighborhood of 445 give or take...doesn't take much to have a fairly substantial sized fleet.

Iflewrepublic.



Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineACVITALE From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1982 times:

Kind of interesting to compare yesterdays beamouths of TWA, Pan Am, Braniff, and Eastern to todays United, Delta, Northwest and others and you can see the same bad choices repeated.

Bad management doesn't go away it just changes codes.


User currently offlineIflewrepublic From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 537 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1977 times:

The only things bad management changes are the suits.

Iflewrepublic.



Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6839 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (13 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1942 times:

Rankings for US airlines for some random years, based on revenue passenger miles carried in scheduled service:

1948 #1 AA, #2 UA, #3 PA #4 TW, #5 EA

1951 AA TW UA EA PA

1960 AA UA TW PA EA

1964 UA TW PA AA EA

1970 UA TW PA AA EA

1976 UA AA TW EA DL PA


25 Greg : The memory of Pan Am has always been bigger than the actual carrier. PA is notable in it's accomplishments, not in its size
26 IMissPiedmont : AND!. Pa Am could carry passengers between two US points before deregualtion. As long as they were not US citizens. Just as any foreign carrier can to
27 ACVITALE : Realize that the carrier Pan Am was but one aspect. There was a division of Pan Am that ran flights to Alaska a division for Europe a division for Sou
28 BHopsde : Hey folks, business is a game of chance...one can hire teams of so-called "experts," but it is analysis and hypotheses...no guarantees! Just as life,
29 Milemaster : That information can't be right... None of AA's 727-200's listed either.
30 Post contains images BO__einG : Pam Am was as big as my Bedroom..
31 ACVITALE : I miss piedmont.. You are wrong... Pan Am could NOT carry passengers within the US with very few notable exceptions (ie connecting to or from another
32 456 : Another interesting question is, where would it be today when it would still alive...
33 Trintocan : What it would be like today? That is imponderable - but certainly it would not have the kind of monopoly which it had in the past as many other countr
34 Timz : Imisspiedmont said that Pan Am could carry non-US citizens as conditional stopover traffic. Is there a difference between that and "connecting to or f
35 Post contains links and images 456 : But as far as my knowledge reach for this photograph with its text, i may presume Pan Am is still flying??? And there for my question mentioned 2 post
36 N202PA : The Pan Am that exists today bears no resemblance to the original Pan Am. It is an entirely separate company, with different management, and separated
37 ACVITALE : Pan Am Delta interchanges were common throughout the 1960s and 80s. Pan Am and Delta had an interchange agreement on IAD-LAX from 1971-1976. Al
38 Timz : 1973-1975 North American OAGs show no PA or DL thru plane IAD-LAX; Worldwide OAGs show no PA or DL flight from Paris to LAX via IAD. As I recall the P
39 IMissPiedmont : Normally I would not respond to something this old, but! You very obviously have no idea what you are talking about. A non US citizen COULD buy a tick
40 Timz : Cearley's Delta book says that ca 1971 Delta was operating PA 747s on a few of its domestic routes, including ATL-LAX; as far as we can tell this was
41 ACVITALE : IFlyPiedmont. Having been a Pan Am'er I can assure you that is not the case. You could do so on other carriers but not, Pan Am. If you are so inclined
42 CroFlight : Just to make it clear... PanAm was a symbol of US for everybody everywhere outside US. It's "blue globe" was the most recognized american symbol in th
43 Tan flyr : Well Put Croflight! One point...TW was both a domestic and an International carrier. If The CAB said you had to be one or the other, how did TWA gain,
44 Skyhawk : TAN FLYR - Thanks so very much for the kind words about Pan Am! So many people here have only been concerned with just the numbers of planes when they
45 Acvitale : A few comments, TWA was allowed to carry both International and Domestic traffic. Pan Am was viewed to be to large and the CAB believed it would be an
46 IMissPiedmont : As you were no more than 24 at the time of Pan am's demise, and no more than 4 in 1972, I can understand that you do not remember. And what makes you
47 Djmatthews : Does anybody think it is worth while buying a name e.g. Pan Am, we all know that PAIII is not the original Pan Am, do they gain anything from using an
48 Post contains images Ryanair : I just spoke to an ex PA Res Supervisor from the 1960's-70's who worked at various overseas stations and their 100% for real expert opinion is there w
49 Dutchjet : It is so difficult to compare the airline industry now to when Pan Am was the premier flagship carrier of the USA. Unitl the 1970s when Pan Am started
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