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United Pilots Sue To Stop Merger Integration  
User currently offlinesdexplorer00 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 156 posts, RR: 0
Posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 19156 times:

Reuters) - Pilots at United Airlines asked a federal judge on Monday to halt integration with Continental Airlines, saying the company is moving too fast in its bid to merge operations fully.

The United chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), which filed suit in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of New York, sought a stay of Friday's deadline to complete the next phase of training and begin new procedures.

The union said the proposed level and timeline of training necessary for United Continental Holdings Inc (UAL.N) to earn single operating authority from Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is inadequate. .......

Full article at http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...RSS&feedName=innovationNews&rpc=43

Don't understand this move. It seems the pilots and Delta and Northwest had a more forward way of looking things and that the merger would be a benefit for them.

154 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 19166 times:

This is totally union posturing to put pressure on the airline to give in to their demands.

Its shameful.

NS


User currently offlinesdexplorer00 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 19160 times:

More information here http://finance.yahoo.com/news/United...d-new-apf-1992527133.html?x=0&.v=5

Highlight "Wendy Morse, the head of the pilot union at United and a 777 captain, said pilots watched a computer-based slide show that lasts 54 minutes, and that some pilots have been designated to answer questions from fellow aviators. But pilots have gotten no classroom instruction or other training in the new procedures, she said.

Changes include allowing the autopilot to fly the plane out of a severe wind gust rather than flying the plane manually as United pilots currently do, she said.

"I think United pilots will continue to be pretty uncomfortable allowing the autopilot to get out of a wind shear situation when they're close to the ground and about to hit it," she said.

Other changes include the terms that pilots use to update each other and air traffic controllers on their progress toward landing, and whether the captain or the first officer turns off the landing light after landing.

No single change would be difficult, she said, but "there's a whole plethora of changes in a row, and one on top of another, and that is what's creating the angst. Our guys are not comfortable because of a whole list of those kinds of things," she said."


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 19132 times:

I've got a very hard time believing that, in a year, a professional pilot can't complete such training.

I'd love to hear from the ATPs on this board.

NS


User currently offlineflyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 995 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 19102 times:

Sounds reasonable to request adequate training when procedures change.


"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 19081 times:

Sure. What is highly suspect is that the company didn't give it to them, or that nobody complained before now.

NS


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 19016 times:

Quoting sdexplorer00 (Reply 2):
"I think United pilots will continue to be pretty uncomfortable allowing the autopilot to get out of a wind shear situation when they're close to the ground and about to hit it," she said.

I highly doubt this scenario. Could be wrong, but I doubt it. Sounds like hyperbole and trying to shock the court into a delay with something that the wouldn't understand as a non-pilot.

Quoting sdexplorer00 (Reply 2):
No single change would be difficult, she said, but "there's a whole plethora of changes in a row, and one on top of another, and that is what's creating the angst. Our guys are not comfortable because of a whole list of those kinds of things," she said."

Grow up. Study more if you are uncomfortable. It sounds as if all these "little things" are all spelled out, so what are the union spokesholes trying to convey? That UA pilots aren't able to learn new things? What are they paid the most on the plane for then?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18915 times:

Quote:
No single change would be difficult, she said, but "there's a whole plethora of changes in a row, and one on top of another, and that is what's creating the angst. Our guys are not comfortable because of a whole list of those kinds of things," she said.

How do these pilots handle a checkride for a type rating? I mean, my god! All the little changes that are required to be learned and known in order to pass? It's crazy! It's just unfair to expect someone to remember so much in just a few months (or less).

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3045 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18810 times:

So my understanding, from reading the articles on this subject, is that the United pilots are balking at adopting a number of the current CO procedures as part of their operation because they do not deem them to be safe or adequate. So, in essence, what the UA pilots are saying is that CO pilots operate in an unsafe manner. I'm sure that is going to make the CO pilots feel real good...

User currently offlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 622 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18726 times:

I don't know who to believe. If you ask many NW pilots, DL operates in an unsafe manner (just sayin' what I've heard). Personally, when I flew for DL, I only felt safe on DL. I hated flying anyone else. I know that was silly now.

Back on topic, I think no matter how long the training is-someone would complain it needs to be longer or more thorough.



From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3045 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18695 times:

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 9):
Back on topic, I think no matter how long the training is-someone would complain it needs to be longer or more thorough.

Absolutely right. "We fear change" is the mantra of most any work group.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21680 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 18567 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 6):
I highly doubt this scenario. Could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Going from handflying a windshear escape maneuver to letting the autopilot do it is a major technique change, and I'd want some serious training in the simulator before I felt comfortable with it (my company's policy is to handfly those).

The other stuff...eh, who turns off the landing light (and other such stuff) isn't a huge deal. But the problem is that when such things are ingrained into your head (as they are when one has been doing things a certain way for a while), it's not that easy to change on a dime, especially if one is expecting perfection (i.e. the wrong person turning off the landing light a couple of times at first is not acceptable). An hour's slideshow with no classroom training isn't going to cut it if you're looking to substantially change flow patterns IMO.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1473 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 18528 times:

The complaint is that UA is changing the ENTIRE flight manual for the airplane. With changes in which pilot in the cockpit configures the airplane (F/O or Capt). ie; today at parking the Captain configures all the switches on the overhead panel. On sept 30 the F/O becomes responsible for all the items. The callouts and configurations that are used on approach being changed; ie what we say at a configuration point and when and now to configure the airplane. Changing the titles of the checklist we use. ie; final descent checklist becomes landing checklist. We will be setting different altitudes in the MCP on approach versus what we do today. In many instances the changes are that the F/O does all the duties the Captain used to do and vice versa.

This is not a YEAR to learn. This was rolled out on 8-30-11 with a completion of self training by 9-23. The pilots are expected to read the entire manual to find ALL the changes (also the manual is not organized as our current book is). You don't want your crew trying to find something in a critical phase of flight when they need to call upon a checklist that might keep the airplane in a safe condition. In the past these types of maneuvers were taught by Pilot Instructors in simulators at our training center. Instead we are given two hours of power point slides to train on the new procedures.

These 30 day cycles of changes are difficult to keep up with. After this round there is another scheduled for Nov and Jan. Personally I can keep up but there is a great deal of self teaching and ambiguity to many of the sections that are changing.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 18339 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 12):
Personally I can keep up but there is a great deal of self teaching and ambiguity to many of the sections that are changing.

So... other pilots at UA aren't as capable as you? Or do you object to the need to study on your own? Seriously, this kind of thing happens in every industry.

Sounds as if they are also not making all the changes at once, but in a 3 phase schedule to ease the burden. I really don't sympathize. If your fellow captains and F/Os can't handle the job asked of them, there are plenty of people in the seniority list who can and will take over your spot, and plenty of people ready to be hired on the low end of the totem pole who would gladly learn these procedures.

You have a secure job that pays you well. That's more than most people in America can say. Stop complaining about it.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineflyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 995 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 18308 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
An hour's slideshow with no classroom training isn't going to cut it if you're looking to substantially change flow patterns IMO.

  

This is the crux of the situation.



"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlineGreenArc From United States of America, joined May 2000, 79 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 18284 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 3):
I've got a very hard time believing that, in a year, a professional pilot can't complete such training.

I'd love to hear from the ATPs on this board.

Training began less than two months ago. Training at CO started even later, because the FAA did not deem their original training program adequate and ordered it enhanced.

There are real safety issues with making major procedural changes, one on top of the other, without the benefit of hands on training in classroom or simulator. This is not how things have ever been done at UA and a merger is no excuse to relax those standards. The fact is, there is a rush to SOC driven by Wall Street and that rush is compromising operational safety. Pilots at UA are facing major changes in procedures later this week. Any pilot deviation from the new standard is subject to FAA enforcement action. As you can imagine, other outcomes are much more serious.

ALPA has repeatedly offered to work with the company to revise and improve the training process and has been repeatedly shut out. The original SOC timeline could probably have been maintained had management accepted the offer of cooperation. ALPA's offer to cooperate was never conditioned on or influenced by the contract negotiations.


User currently offlineF9Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 698 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 18059 times:

Well, I know it sounds petty, but I think the union actually has a point here. In the cockpit, you want to make sure everyone knows who is supposed to do what, so the pilot and first officer don't think the other guy was supposed to do something critical (like say, lower the landing gear on landing) and cause a worse problem.

User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3045 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 18005 times:

Quoting GreenArc (Reply 15):
The fact is, there is a rush to SOC driven by Wall Street and that rush is compromising operational safety.

That's an opinion though, not a fact.

Quoting GreenArc (Reply 15):
ALPA has repeatedly offered to work with the company to revise and improve the training process and has been repeatedly shut out.

ALPA at both UA and CO? Or ALPA at UA? Because, it would appear from the news, this is solely a UA MEC driven issue, and not an issue at the CO MEC or at the national level of ALPA.

Quoting GreenArc (Reply 15):
The original SOC timeline could probably have been maintained had management accepted the offer of cooperation.

So then ALPA is slowing down the SOC timeline intentionally because it was either their way or the highway?

Quoting GreenArc (Reply 15):
ALPA's offer to cooperate was never conditioned on or influenced by the contract negotiations.

Not overtly no. But let's face it: this isn't something you see the CO MEC pushing, so one would have to be naive to think that the UA MEC isn't connecting the two.


User currently offline30west From Brazil, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 17816 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 13):

So... other pilots at UA aren't as capable as you? Or do you object to the need to study on your own? Seriously, this kind of thing happens in every industry.

Sounds as if they are also not making all the changes at once, but in a 3 phase schedule to ease the burden. I really don't sympathize. If your fellow captains and F/Os can't handle the job asked of them, there are plenty of people in the seniority list who can and will take over your spot, and plenty of people ready to be hired on the low end of the totem pole who would gladly learn these procedures.

You have a secure job that pays you well. That's more than most people in America can say. Stop complaining about it.

You have no idea what your talking about.

I do , I'm attempting the training now. The manual is completely changing on the 767 and 777 fleet, the manuals will change again in 30 more days also. The Feds bought off on the changes since it is all up to one person the POI , who do you think he really works for . The new UAL when merged will only need one not two since CAL has one now. The manuals are full of errors they put out POSBDs to revise the printed errors that were rushed thru. The flows, memory items, callouts, procedures and manual all changed. The normal section went from 84 pages to 192 pages and the original 84 pages were drastically changed. I started the 3 hour total CBT on Sep 20 you have to be ready to go in 10 days and the CBT training simply points out the section changed not what changed. This is grossly negligent especially compared to how we have trained in the past. The pilots on the 747 and Airbus have almost no changes so no big deal for them the rest of us need help.

30west


User currently offline30west From Brazil, joined Mar 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17790 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 17):
Not overtly no. But let's face it: this isn't something you see the CO MEC pushing, so one would have to be naive to think that the UA MEC isn't connecting the two.

The CAL procedures arent changing. Their manual is based on the manufacture manual. The UAL was vastly different.


User currently offlinetozairport From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 686 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17774 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
This is totally union posturing to put pressure on the airline to give in to their demands.
Quoting sdexplorer00 (Reply 2):
I've got a very hard time believing that, in a year, a professional pilot can't complete such training.
Quoting gigneil (Reply 5):
Sure. What is highly suspect is that the company didn't give it to them, or that nobody complained before now.

I would sure like to see you retract your callous and uninformed statements. That probably won't happen though. In the future you might want to take a minute to actually learn about a topic before you throw out such barbs. Here are some facts for you if you would like to learn something:

- This is not union posturing. This is about keep ourselves and our passengers safe. The company has not allowed ALPA Subject Matter Experts to have any input on the content or the delivery of the "training".

- We have not had a year. We have had 30 days or so for each module. The first phase was rife with technical problems that caused many pilots to have incomplete training. The company set up a "technical help desk" - in India - to assist pilots with training issues. Do to communications barriers, this help desk was totally ineffective and even signed some pilots off as complete even though they had never actually completed the training!

- We have been complaining about this training since it was first proposed. It just hadn't made it to the media yet. Managements continued refusal to work with the pilot group AT ALL has caused the necessary step of asking for an injunction.

- These are not just simple changes like "who turns on a light bulb". Management is fundamentally changing the way we operate. Changing things like windshear and go-around profiles, how we respond to and execute emergency checklists, how we alert the flight attendants, etc. All of this is being done without 1 minute in a sim to actually practice and apply what we have "learned".

- I could go on with more but that would not be productive. Just like so much of what management has done (pass travel policy, Ipads, IT integration), they ignore the stakeholders and just do whatever they want.

This injunction request is not about the pilots of United trying to hold up the SOC implementation. It is ALL about upholding the level of safety that we require and our customers expect. It is not about the JCBA and it is not because we think that the procedures the CAL pilots use are bad. We just want to be trained in a manner that is effective and that ensures our procedures and practices are as safe as possible. So please, next time take a moment to learn about the subject before you spew your anti-labor venom.



Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7309 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17692 times:
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There are a lot of hurdles for UA/CO to overcome in the totally merger, but this isn't a priority. I've run into plenty of issues with something being UA instead of CO and been told by a CSA or reservations agent it's messed up because they are having integration problems.

Quoting sdexplorer00 (Thread starter):
Don't understand this move. It seems the pilots and Delta and Northwest had a more forward way of looking things and that the merger would be a benefit for them.

Apples and oranges.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 1):
This is totally union posturing to put pressure on the airline to give in to their demands.

  



I miss the old Anet.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17693 times:

Quoting tozairport (Reply 21):
This injunction request is not about the pilots of United trying to hold up the SOC implementation.

Sorry, but it absolutely is. The goals sound fine, but this isn't an issue where filing a lawsuit is an appropriate means of accomplishing the goals. It's not in my interest (economically) to say this, but some problems shouldn't be solved in court.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6618 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17958 times:

Quoting sdexplorer00 (Reply 2):
Changes include allowing the autopilot to fly the plane out of a severe wind gust rather than flying the plane manually as United pilots currently do, she said.

"I think United pilots will continue to be pretty uncomfortable allowing the autopilot to get out of a wind shear situation when they're close to the ground and about to hit it," she said.

This in itself is a fairly minor change and more in-line with boeing procedures. We recently also incorporated this change. All it took was an e-mail from the company and re-wording in the manuals. We are all happy with it. No training required, afterall we all know how to turn on the autopilot and we all know how to monitor autopilot performance. This actually makes it an easier manouvre as it frees up mental capacity to do things like monitor our rate of climb/descent and out radio altitude, if ground contact is an issue. Of course there is also the line in the manual that states that if the autopilot is not performing satisfactorily then we are to disconnect and fly right up to the PLI (Pitch Limit Indicators) (i.e. edge of stick shaker).

Obviously this is not the only change the UA pilots are being faced with and when a whole host of things change it can be tough to learn the new way, especially when the old way might have become deeply ingrained in a pilots mind. One change is easy...lots of changes take time to learn, especially if they are complicated ones.

At Cathay we used to take the manufacturer's operating manuals and tear them apart, taking bits we liked and then rewriting the entire things our way. We always did things very differently to the manufacturer but over the last few years we have been slowly aligning our operations to those of Boeing and Airbus and flying the way the manufacturers meant for their planes to be flown. This has taken years of minor changes here and there. I can't imagine changing all in one go though!


User currently offlinetozairport From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 686 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (3 years 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 17825 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 24):
Sorry, but it absolutely is. The goals sound fine, but this isn't an issue where filing a lawsuit is an appropriate means of accomplishing the goals. It's not in my interest (economically) to say this, but some problems shouldn't be solved in court.

When one party completely ignores the points of another party to the detriment of everyone's safety it leaves very few avenues open other than the legal one. We have brought this up with the FAA, but they move at glacial speed. We, obviously, have brought it up with UA management, but they have ignored all of our requests and inputs. Pilots are not getting trained but are being expected to perform items and procedures as if they had been trained. So it is about safety and is NOT about unreasonably delaying the SOC. Your statements, like those of so many others on this thread, do nothing to disprove this.



Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
25 par13del : Funny how we ignore the comments of an actual pilot, what does ambiguity mean, does it have something to do with the other pilot - 30West - who poste
26 Cubsrule : How does this application even come close to meeting the standards for equitable relief? If I represented UA (I don't), I'd seriously consider moving
27 micstatic : I agree that these are serious issues. While I certainly appreciate all the input the pilots have added to this topic, I do have a question. Corporate
28 gigneil : I'd be happy to. I'm a rational human being, and I did in fact ask for re-education in a post you didn't bother to quote. I have heard many comments
29 flightopsguy : Not quite the case. The changes to procedures and manuals during a merger for SOC are written by a joint team of members of each work group from both
30 CX Flyboy : Of course, but when you change aircraft types, you get training, sit exams, fly the simulator, get training experience in the real aircraft etc... Yo
31 AAR90 : For you non-professional pilots, consider the following scenario that played out at AA a few years ago. AA "re-wrote" its aircraft operating manuals t
32 catiii : ..who, respectfully, has an agenda seeing as how his union is the one pushing the case. But they are getting computer based training. The question is
33 gigneil : Yes but my question is this: is that even legal? Would the FAA or anyone else allow it? NS
34 mm320cap : Oh the irony. The union-hating armchair quartbacks have decided that they have figured out what is REALLY going on here and it's not about safety, jus
35 catiii : Aren't engine fires memory items though?
36 tozairport : How can you say that when you know nothing about the specifics of the case, the actions of the company, or even the actions of the Association? What
37 AAR90 : No, I am presupposing that management has "closed eyes" and is unwilling to view things from a different perspective.... that of a line pilot. Quite
38 mcdu : I would be happy to share the bulletin of changes. You can decide for yourself once you have seen the material. I am not opposed to change, however t
39 flyhossd : IIRC, CO's Principle Operations Inspector did not approve the original version of the phase 1 training. In other words, from what I've heard from sou
40 catiii : Ok, so which is it then? They were never consulted, or they were consulted, but the company didn't support or agree with their input? Because here yo
41 30west : Once again someone commenting that doesn't know. My best friend is a SME for ALPA on one of the A/C. There are 4 phases ALPA wasn't contacted for pha
42 flyhossd : What advantage does halting the "final integration" gain for the UA pilots? As I recall UA/CO has already missed the originally stated dates and it h
43 mm320cap : No, they are not..[Edited 2011-09-26 21:04:42][Edited 2011-09-26 21:10:55]
44 sonomaflyer : I'm pretty surprised at the knee jerk reactions by some of what appear to be non-pilots in this thread. Too many assumptions and not enough open minds
45 Mir : Other avenues have been tried, and they didn't work. It's certainly not the best way. But if it's the only way, then you've got to do what you've got
46 tozairport : Your whole post was spot on. Nicely done. Funny how the four main people spouting all the anti-labor bile in this thread are all lawyers. You would t
47 Post contains links flyhossd : Here's an interesting story from a Houston reporter: http://blog.chron.com/lorensteffy/20...inds-for-unitedcontinental-merger/ IMHO, it's clear that a
48 Post contains images sonomaflyer : The ironic thing is I too am a lawyer Perhaps its my Dad's lifetime of flying and telling me so many things about procedures, checklists etc that gav
49 apodino : I am also going to defend ALPA on this one. I am not a pilot, but I am a dispatcher and I have been in many jumpseats in my years in the industry. One
50 Post contains images Nutsaboutplanes : I think the pilots should be given some lattitude here. If they were trying to disrupt the actual merger process of UA and CO, that would be a differe
51 CX Flyboy : On my plane at my airline the first few items on the check list are. The subsequent ones are not memory items. It would be unreasonable to expect a c
52 sldispatcher : Stipulations: I am not in a union. I have been self-employed and an employee. I do think that unions have overstretched their bounds, but they are def
53 fleabyte : It seems that the UA Pilots are frustrated with the merger, and these changes to their flight procedures is salt on an open wound. It is inevitable th
54 tsully : As usual, the non-pilots of a.net come out en masse to armchair quarterback a subject for which they possess no authority or credibility. The I-hate-p
55 norcal : They tried other avenues and the company didn't listen. Honestly, what the heck were they supposed to do? The company didn't listen to them when they
56 Cubsrule : I've read the complaint (I'd invite you to do the same - Eastern District of New York Civil Action No. 1:11-cv-04661-SJ-SMG). It is utterly devoid of
57 norcal : I don't know I'm not a lawyer, but the union's hired legal team apparently think there is enough of a case to attempt this. Or since all other avenue
58 Cubsrule : I deal with meritless lawsuits that "hired legal teams" think have merit all day long. I don't put much stock in your statement. The reality is that
59 tsnamm : They seem to have underestimated a great deal about integration issues in just about every work group...that would be why the timetable isn't being m
60 norcal : I saw this on another site that I think sums it up pretty well There is cooperative culture--on time checks continue to flow. There are pockets of hig
61 norcal : See reply above, for the expected company response Also, the flying public doesn't have a clue who they are flying on most of the time so I'm not sur
62 Cubsrule : But with a narrow chance of winning, why not just take it public without filing? Lawsuits cost money and have risk - financial, political and legal.
63 Post contains images mcdu : Disappointed that you would post what you posted. Not sure you have a grasp on the depth of the changes that are being changed. In the past several y
64 Mir : What would that really do? We've already seen the reaction the public is likely to have: "this is just another labor dispute, why don't the pilots ju
65 Cubsrule : My whole point is that there can't be because they can't show an entitlement to equitable relief. On what basis do you disagree?
66 mm320cap : I'm certainly not a lawyer, so I don't know what is technically required to meet injunctive relief. I would like to think that a judge would see comm
67 Mir : That's for the court to decide. One thing we do know for sure is that the court of public opinion can't provide equitable relief. -Mir
68 mm320cap : I lied. I'm back because I just found a brilliant letter written by a Safety expert which sums up the problem WAYYY better than I ever could. Names re
69 Cubsrule : OK. How will ALPA prove its case and get its injunction? Where's the irreparable harm? Where's the inadequate remedy at law? No one has explained tha
70 Sulley : I'm trying to grasp the situation here. I agree that UAL pilots should be given all the training that they feel comfortable with before applying the n
71 mcdu : Unfortunately Cubs you are probably correct in that ALPA will not win this suit. The program is approved by the FAA and it is going to be that benchm
72 Cubsrule : If you really believe that, I don't want to fly on your airplane. Wishing harm on people is appalling, whatever the justification.
73 apodino : From the Article I seem to remember Colgan executives using that exact same language before the NTSB following that incident. We all know about that.
74 gigneil : He said: NS
75 micstatic : I'm usually quick to knock certain union views, positions, and actions. But this certainly appears to be a very valid issue where I can see the concer
76 Cubsrule : Reading comprehension? Apparently, I've failed at that one today. Apologies, Mcdu.
77 tozairport : There is no irreparable harm until there is irreparable harm. In other words, nothing is wrong until people die or are in danger of dying. Why can't
78 xdlx : This exposes the reality on every Training Department of every airline in the US. Merger integration into a SOC is no joke, and as someone mentioned
79 Cubsrule : Right. The trouble is that that doesn't work in court. So, again, how do they succeed with this suit? No. I want an effective fix to the problems tha
80 IAHFLYR : The B737 is not a common type, only CO drives them and UA has the Bus fleet, the rest would be common type.
81 par13del : Based on public opinion in the USA today, unions are at the bottom of the scale and unless they have a specific accident to point to the public will
82 apodino : It's not quite that simple. There are aircraft specific procedures, and then there are standard callouts which are common on every airplane. (Calls l
83 Cubsrule : That's a legal remedy (to which the union is probably entitled), not an equitable one. ALPA wants an injunction. Generally and with some very narrow
84 LAXtoATL : Irreparable harm is obvious: If these changes are implemented without adequate training and it results in an accident causing loss of life. That is t
85 apodino : I have a major issue with this. That would basically mean the court is saying to ALPA "Yes UA violated the contract. Tough (Bleep), deal with it" If
86 Post contains images mcdu : So I agree with you and hope NOBODY is harmed and you still jab me . I saw the apology. No worries. The problem with ALPA is that they have cried Wol
87 Mir : UAL pilots having their certificates placed in jeopardy by being required to adhere to procedures without sufficient training for those procedures. A
88 Cubsrule : When did I say that? Courts will correct breach of contract - just not with injunctions (usually). I'm not sure I agree. I can't think of a situation
89 flyhossd : As I recall, the Railway Labor Act requires that a grievance process and/or arbitration be used if it's included in the contract (which I believe to
90 PlanesNTrains : Perhaps, but to be fair, unions have done plenty of things to create that situation over the years. Here in WA state, we have a Longshoreman's issue
91 tozairport : OK, so you agree that there is a safety issue but you still disagree with the Associations position? Isn't a safety issue important enough to warrant
92 Cubsrule : Nope, just with their decision to file suit. But there is no legal remedy (at least not one that was requested in the suit). That's the trouble. I'm
93 Post contains images norcal : The other options have been exhausted. What other choices do they have? Exactly, there are multiple techniques to accomplish the same tasks Stop comp
94 mcg : My question is: are the UA pilots objecting to the changes that are being implemented (it sounds to me like CA procedures are being implemented) or th
95 sonomaflyer : To be clear, UA pilots are not saying CO is operating their aircraft in an unsafe manner. CO is operating their aircraft "DIFFERENTLY." As was explain
96 mcg : Does the contract between ALPA and UA say something like "Company will provide Pilots with adequate training to perform their assigned duties in a saf
97 tozairport : Although I don't know the exact nature of the ALPA lawyers employment, I believe that they work only for the association and are compensated as such.
98 Sulley : Ironically, on the ramp, it's 100% opposite -- the UAL way is prevailing. Change for everyone, I suppose.
99 splitterz : I'd say it about equal there.
100 30west : I was told when a change goes up the ladder both POI's have to agree if they don't agree the manufacture manual is then used for that area. It so hap
101 Max Q : There is no reason to rush into this. We operate our respective Aircraft quite differently but we share the same goal of maximum safety. If we are goi
102 Post contains images catiii : So why didn't the MEC do so? And why has ALPA National been so quiet about this? And furthermore, if this is such a safety of flight issue, and the t
103 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : I'm not "comparing" - I'm simply pointing out why people can have a negative opinion of unions and their tactics. It goes for management as well. Hey
104 Mir : Because their livelihood depends on it. -Mir
105 mm320cap : It's not an objection to the new procedures, necessarily. Having not lived with them yet, it's hard to say whether they are better, worse, or neither
106 catiii : Wow...so then that means the UA entire pilot group is knowingly and willingly flying in an unsafe manner in order to protect their paycheck? That's q
107 Mir : It's not unsafe, it's just not as safe as it should be. And as far as protecting the paycheck goes, you really think someone wants to lose their sour
108 catiii : So if it is not unsafe, meaning it is safe, then why the lawsuit? Well...isn't that what the union is there for? To protect them? But I guess that th
109 Mir : The fact that something is not unsafe does not mean it is safe. Well, maybe it does in your average business, but not in the world of high reliabilit
110 norcal : Well ALPA doesn't employ tactics like this so there really isn't any point in bringing it up other than spewing anti-union rhetoric. The most noise A
111 NathanH : I think safety is probably on a continuum, not an on/off switch.
112 flyhossd : I believe the new (new to UAL) procedures are not yet in effect. As I understand it, the changes to UAL previous procedures are dramatic and the new
113 Post contains links mm320cap : No. We have had several pilots refuse to fly until further explanation of the procedures was provided by an LCA, thus delaying the flight. None of th
114 ikramerica : But every pilot we've heard from has said they personally are okay but worry about others. So either we have all the top pilots on a.net, the pilots
115 meristem : From a training perspective, any procedures that have been repeated thousands of times will take quite directed training to be effectively replaced. I
116 FlyASAGuy2005 : If you re-read the flow of that particular comment, he was more referring to their professional career and not actual life and limb. Goes back to the
117 flyhossd : Have you read this thread? The implementation ISN'T safely "staggered and layered" and that's what the UAL MEC suit is about. This is the second phas
118 FlyASAGuy2005 : I am truly surprised at some of the comments. I mean, I understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. However, it's one thing to be obje
119 Cubsrule : I have a tough time respecting people who file lawsuits that they have no chance of winning.
120 apodino : The problem is that there should not be bonuses or any financial incentive to senior management to get things done by a certain date. Yes it is good
121 FlyASAGuy2005 : That's fine. And your responce seems to be take it public, take it public. Well, we've already seen how the "aviation public" feels. Imagine those th
122 Cubsrule : I didn't have problem with it. It seemed like it could go either way - there's a tendency around here to call it frivolous whenever an airline or a m
123 FlyASAGuy2005 : Personally, I didn't care either way. If they lost, the flying would have been up in the not too distant future anyone. However, you make a good and
124 Cubsrule : I think not, and no one has even tried to convince me otherwise. But I'm willing to listen. I'm not a Railway Labor Act whiz, and I could be wrong.
125 catiii : I'd actually have a little more respect for him because he's putting his money where his mouth is. Why yes, yes I have. USAFA grad, flew C-17s until
126 mcg : Speaking as a passenger, I'm not sure I want the 'training' to be heppening on a flight I'm on. If the changes are as simple as one checklist being r
127 par13del : Happens all the time, whenever you see three cockpit crew entering a two plane cockpit, one of three things are happening. 1. Checkride by management
128 mm320cap : ikramerica and catiii Too many point to go back and quote, so I'll just respond here. Catiii, you are a lawyer, so I get it, you like to argue the min
129 mm320cap : Hi par13del, These days, we don't do actual "training" on passenger flights. When pilots first check out in a new plane, their first trip is with a L
130 ual777 : No offense, but you're very out of touch. Everybody HATES going to the sim. I MEAN HATES. HATES. It is one of the most unpleasant experiences you can
131 Mir : You can't study a windshear escape maneuver on your own time. Well, you can, but without a go in the sim it's pretty much worthless. Going into the s
132 Post contains images norcal : Your ignorance of pilot training is staggering. Perhaps you should learn something before you just apply anti-union rhetoric to every situation Simul
133 Cubsrule : As distasteful as it is, the answer may be nothing.
134 futureualpilot : And accept inadequate training, so they can go fly the line without having had an opportunity to practice changes to the way they operate the aircraf
135 Post contains images rdh3e : One thing I don't understand, how much danger are they really putting on people? It seems to me they know how to fly a plane. So that's a , they alwa
136 Cubsrule : I'm not sure why filing a lawsuit that has no chance of success indicates that they do not "accept inadequate training," while simply exhausting the
137 futureualpilot : There is a lot more to being a professional pilot than simply flying the airplane. If all the job took was showing up, flying from A to B and going t
138 rdh3e : Thank you for making my point. And if they currently handfly the windshear and microburst encounters, then they know how and it wouldn't be a safety
139 Cubsrule : Why? What difference is there between filing a lawsuit that won't succeed and doing nothing? I guess filing the lawsuit allows people to feel better.
140 FlyASAGuy2005 : Norcal answered before I could but what it does is set a precedent. You by you're own admission said that you don't agree with what's going on but di
141 futureualpilot : Hand flying doesn't do anything if the procedure is not followed properly, or if you have two pilots trying to do two different things. I ask this ou
142 FlyASAGuy2005 : You really don't see the difference? Doing something (whether you feel they'll succeed or not) is better than doing absolutely nothing. One thing my
143 Flighty : As simply a passenger (who looks at probabilities for a job), I am fine with qualified crew doing anything they like, within their certified parameter
144 mcg : My advice would be to avoid speculating on anybody's motivation, it's irrelevant. Focus on the importance of operating the worlds largest (I think) a
145 Post contains links dutchflyboi : As reported today: Pilots at United Airlines lost on Thursday in their bid to postpone the integration of flight operations with Continental Airlines,
146 TVNWZ : Cubsrule wins the argument. - - -
147 FlyASAGuy2005 : Wom, what? I know for me I said in two separate posts that i'm not an attorney nor do I understand the law enough to know if they had a case or not.
148 rdh3e : Cubsrule wasn't arguing the validity of the pilots concerns, just saying that the lawsuit didn't stand a chance. He remained pretty neutral on the ma
149 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Which is why i've held respect for the guy from the time I first started posting on this site. One of the more level-headed and partial members
150 Cubsrule : Maybe so, but given the unanimity of pilots in this thread that there are real safety concerns, it's sort of an empty victory.
151 TVNWZ : Cubsrule won HIS argument. An empty victory is a victory none the less.
152 GreenArc : This is what UA management is doing to consolidate their court victory: 1) With the changes going into effect tomorrow, UA has shut down the Flight Sa
153 xdlx : ATTN ALL UA PILOTS REPORT YOUR FSAP GRIEVANCE DIRECTLY TO YOUR PIO
154 sbworcs : Is that your data, companies data or Unions data?
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