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Will KLM Livery Be Replaced By AF Livery?  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16568 times:

Will KLM livery be replaced by AF livery?
When both airlines merged they said that KLM would keep its own identity for a FEW years


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebgm From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16559 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Will KLM livery be replaced by AF livery?

I really hope not! KLM has a beautiful livery. Makes a welcome change from the boring Euro white. Plus (as an a.netter I am obliged to say this) KLM's aircraft are way too clean to wear the AF livery.   


User currently offlineFerminios From Canada, joined Apr 2011, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16528 times:

I really doubt that it will ever happen - the KLM brand is just way too strong not only in the Netherlands but also worldwide to throw it in the trash. It would be a terrible decision from a marketing perspective I think.

Furthermore, would you really want to fly with Air France - Royal Dutch Airlines to Amsterdam?   


User currently offlinehamad From United Arab Emirates, joined Apr 2000, 1159 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16502 times:

lets hope not! KLM really represents the Netherlands and the dutch culture!


PHX - i miss spotting
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16464 times:

I highly doubt it.

For people all over the world, KLM is still KLM and not Air France.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16443 times:
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KLM is an independent carrier WITHIN the Air France Group with its own Company Registration, and is incorporated in the Netherlands.

It holds various (No EU) bilateral route licences and operations across the North Atlantic are pooled with Delta.

It buys and sells services (maintenance ground handling etc...) within the Air France group and does co-ordinate and code share with Air France where legal framework allows.

It is NOT Air France the airline !


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7478 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 16423 times:

There is no possibility of KLM disappearing before all the bilateral air service agreements signed by the Dutch government have been replaced by agreements signed by the EU,

It is not coincidence that the BD, LX, OS and SN brands continue to operate within the LH group and BA and IB brands operate within IAG.

But I would suspect that even if we had universal EU air service agreements then KL will survive. If it were to disappear Dutch passengers flying out of AMS would just as likely choose any alternative to AF where currently there is almost certainly a national bias towards KL. And then there is always brand loyalty which is what aircraft liveries and many other airline activities and features try to build. You only have to read posts in airliners.net to see the emotions that can be aroused when someones favourite airline is being discussed.


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 16236 times:

I wonder how close we are now to getting an Air Europe set-up?

All these different brands flying under a few lead airlines cannot be that cost effective.

SAS seem to have done pretty alright sharing an airline between themselves so maybe Europe as a whole will have just one brand.

Obviously they can't use the Air Europe name as that was used before.  


User currently offlinenetjetsintl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 16117 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Will KLM livery be replaced by AF livery?

I hope not. This isn't like Delta and Northwest where Delta's brand was recognized all over the world and Northwest's brand wasn't...... KLM and Air France fly all over the world, they both have world-renowned brands

Plus KLM's colors are so classy, and AF's is plain and boring


User currently offlinewolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 487 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 16016 times:

Paris will burn if that happens.   

User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 15955 times:
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Quoting Babybus (Reply 7):

I wonder how close we are now to getting an Air Europe set-up?

All these different brands flying under a few lead airlines cannot be that cost effective.

SAS seem to have done pretty alright sharing an airline between themselves so maybe Europe as a whole will have just one brand.

Decades away !!!

Various legal frameworks labour and employment legislations, international and bilateral treaties, nationalistic and brand loyalties in the way.

However the three Alliances (through marketing) will make further progress in the population mind set to project that they more than than they are in reality.

They are in fact frequent flyer clubs and are propagated on spoke- Hub-Hub-spoke concept.
These alliances provide little benefit to the majority of Y class tickets holders that normal interlining IATA fares don't however that not the message they want YOU to here.


User currently offlinenetjetsintl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15872 times:

Quoting wolbo (Reply 9):
Paris will burn if that happens.

come on now, don't be shy, tell us how you really feel......

seriously, those KLM colors look really sharp, specially on the 777


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Photo © Tommy Desmet Photography



User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3094 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15799 times:

Considering that KLM is the only part of Air France-KLM making any money, it would be completely idiotic to tinker with the branding at this point.   

User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7478 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15314 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 10):
They are in fact frequent flyer clubs and are propagated on spoke- Hub-Hub-spoke concept.
These alliances provide little benefit to the majority of Y class tickets holders that normal interlining IATA fares don't however that not the message they want YOU to here.

These merged operations are a lot more than frequent flier clubs.

They are single economic entities with a huge buying power. Their significant benefit to Y Class passengers is using their economy of scale to offer competitive fares that, if they were multiple simple entities they simply could not afford to offer and survive. This is why the likes of the Australian (Labour) government is willing to to authorise the JBA (Joint Business Agreement) between AA and QF as discussed here:

QF & AA Joint Business Agreement Approved By Accc (by tayser Sep 28 2011 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=5267031&searchid=5267031&s=qf+aa+joint#ID5267031

This agreement is significantly closer to a merged business than is a simple joint frequent fliers club. If approved by the USA this JBA will bring Australian Y Class passengers crossing the Pacific many economic advantages. This is why the Aussie government have approved it.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14719 times:
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I agree those few Joint business deals BA/QF QF/AA KL/DL have the effects, however these are legal agreements OVER AND ABOVE the general marketing that is the Alliance concept.

And as you point out have required Government level approvals.


All three alliances carry partners that bring virtually nothing the the table

Examples

Oneworld- Malev and S7

*A - Adria and Croatia !, Egyptair

Skyteam

Tarom , Vietnam


User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14672 times:

You mean by dirty white planes??... I hope not

User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2987 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 14588 times:
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VV701

Personal opinion only would like to see those mini cartels made illegal actually.


User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13810 times:

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 15):
You mean by dirty white planes??... I hope not

  

KL has a very strong brand world-wide and is known for high quality service. Relinquishing that status would be a major mistake.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3972 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13624 times:
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If it were ever to happen, I doubt the KLM livery would be replaced by Air France's if only because, as already pointed out, it is counter-intuitive to think of Air France as the Netherlands' "home-grown" carrier. What would happen is they'd come up with some sort of joint branding that would hopefully work for both, along the lines of Air Europe (although not that exactly since Air Europa already exists).

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 5):
KLM is an independent carrier WITHIN the Air France Group

Agree with everything you wrote except this: KLM isn't independent, it is 100% owned by Air France-KLM, a French holding company that also happens to own 100% of Air France. KLM doesn't have independent existence, it receives its instructions from the holding company and implements them (as Air France does on its side).

Quoting rwsea (Reply 12):
Considering that KLM is the only part of Air France-KLM making any money

Considering that it's not true (Air France has a lower profit though), and considering that revenue and expenses are moved around as much as legally possible with the intent to maximize the share of total profit on KLM's books (because of corporate taxes being much lower in the Netherlands over France), that isn't the reason they're not collapsing the two carriers into one. KLM having a higher profit might be nothing more than smart accounting, or not. There isn't enough information publicly available to judge.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinef4f3a From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2004, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 13223 times:

I doubt this very much . I think it's a lot like the car brands. Ie vw Audi skoda seat all under one umbrella vag but each product offers different things and attracts different parts of the market.

I think klm air France will do the same thing . Klm will offer a different product / route network to air France . There is no point in merging them into one brand. The same thing applies with iag and lh group.


User currently offlineFlyingHollander From Netherlands, joined Jul 2011, 217 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12662 times:

Air France would be very stupid to do this, and the Netherlands would never let that happen anyway.


If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
User currently offlineLHPII From Croatia, joined May 2009, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12662 times:

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
livery?
When both airlines merged they said that KLM would keep its own identity for a FEW years

You are making this up. This a complete nonsense and they never stated this!


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2679 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12581 times:

Quoting LHPII (Reply 21):
You are making this up. This a complete nonsense and they never stated this!

They said that, sorry.
But I hope KLM a/c will keep their own livery and nice blue interior



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25205 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12489 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 6):
There is no possibility of KLM disappearing before all the bilateral air service agreements signed by the Dutch government have been replaced by agreements signed by the EU,

This thread is about KL adopting the AF livery. There's nothing to prevent that while KL remains a separate entity. However, like others, that would be a big mistake and will never happen, just like LX will never wear LH livery.


User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 12489 times:
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Let's say no. The KL-product has its own identity, AF-product too. They both have their loyal customers.

Quoting Babybus (Reply 7):
SAS seem to have done pretty alright sharing an airline between themselves so maybe Europe as a whole will have just one brand.

Yes but the three Scandinavian countries (thus not Finland) share a lot (demography, politics, economics etc.). The Netherlands and France are close relatives, nothing more than that.

Quoting netjetsintl (Reply 8):
Plus KLM's colors are so classy, and AF's is plain and boring

Agreed!

Quoting hamad (Reply 3):
KLM really represents the Netherlands and the dutch culture!

Close relatives to Americans. Except: no patriotism (except Queen's day and the Dutch national Football Team). I think besides Queen's Day, the Olympics and the Dutch Football team, nobody shares any nationality wheareas the French are punished for their patriotism (because they protect it). If KL represents the Dutch culture, it has had the AF livery long before.

Quoting rwsea (Reply 12):
Considering that KLM is the only part of Air France-KLM making any money, it would be completely idiotic to tinker with the branding at this point.

KLM has a completely different approach than AF. KL is much more focused upon the economy traveller. AF much more on the premium passengers. Hence it has a good reputation for its First and Business Class. For Economy Class KL has a better reputation. Also Schiphol has much more advantages than CDG.

Because of the economic downturn AF struggles to sell enought premium seats, KL keeps on selling their Economy Class tickets. However this doesn't mean that AF, which is 3 times bigger than KL, needs the liquidty of KL to keep their head above the water. When the economy will improve, AF will certainly make money again.


25 N1120A : Um, really? It is not a stretch at all to say NW was better known by several orders of magnitude in Asia.
26 Post contains images EPA001 : I do not recall this statement. As far as I know AF and KLM will continue to exist as separate brands within the AF-KLM group. And I hope we will kee
27 RoyalDutchGirl : Haha! That would be something! If the airline had a more neutral name, it would be a different story, but the name Air France says it all. It represen
28 FlyingHollander : I believe they said that KLM would keep its own identity for AT LEAST a few years. They probably said it like this because they couldn't be 100% sure
29 frigatebird : That's true, and as the people running the Air France Group aren't, it won't happen. Except they can't. In the original agreement the KL identity was
30 FlyingHollander : Who has the power in the AF/KL group to make such a decision? Because I don't see any KL people vote for a complete merge of identity.
31 LY777 : Yes, sorry, they said AT LEAST. But they said this remained a possibility
32 airproxx : Very unlikely, and it's fine that way.
33 Post contains images breiz : The French being republicans by mistake, there is a serious chance that Air France - KLM is renamed Royal Air Franderland
34 AwysBSB : One of the first French airline names, Air Union, is another option for substituting not only KLM, but the names Air France, Air Europa and Alitalia
35 na : I do not think so. Killing first class brands is a bad idea. I am sure many passengers would turn their back should AF make such a stupid move. What
36 type-rated : That KLM blue livery surely is a classic! It's been around just about as long as AA's has. It really is beautiful on most aircraft I have seen it appl
37 SEA : The KLM livery is classic, though I do think it could really use an update. Standard Helvetica just doesn't look as clean as it used to.
38 erj135 : To answer the original question is simple. Will KLM livery be replaced by AF livery? No! Air France recently made a minor update on their livery, this
39 joelyboy911 : I had wondered if they might start to have some brand unification, such as using matching typefaces on their liveries to show that they are together,
40 glareskin : Well since land is not the specific part of Netherlands I would prefer Netherfrance instead. But both sound silly. Seriously though, why do airlines
41 Post contains images Superfly : I agree. Like most here, I really like the blue livery of KLM. The Euro-white is so boring and unfortunately so many airlines around the world has go
42 ZRH : To answer the question of the thread: for sure not. Why should they? This would be the most stupid move they could do to give up a well known brand. I
43 Post contains images MauriceB : Maybe they should call Air France--> KLM instead, and see if it will make AF profitable to.. Serieously, the fact that AF has a french flag on its
44 Post contains images joelyboy911 : Isn't the French flag quite similar to that of the Netherlands... Rotate 90 degrees to the left... I agree with what you're saying in principle howev
45 Post contains images airproxx :
46 SASMD82 : Let's change the question: Should Finnair or Iberia incorporate the BA-livery? Somehow it doesn't feel right......
47 Post contains images joelyboy911 : Iberia could incorporate similar stylings to BA, with a Spanish flag on the tail and their crown logo on the forward fuselage. Their livery does seem
48 usdcaguy : Oh, really? There's something a little off about this statement. KL may not have first class, but it does have business class, and it does a very goo
49 OzarkD9S : Most of the assumptions I've read on this thread are pretty short-sighted. I can see the day when AF/KL/DL et al are branded as SKYTEAM, with small "o
50 Post contains images LHPII : ......sorry you , but they heve never stated something like that. You must have mixed up something. AF didn't take over KL and they are two separate
51 Ychocky : When will BA aircraft receive Iberia paint? Pretty much the same thing. Not going to happen.[Edited 2011-10-03 06:31:58]
52 CuriousFlyer : Wow, strong reactions... I think AF always understood and made clear that they will use synergies while catering to the different markets AF and KL se
53 SASMD82 : Yes, you are right but what I wanted to say is that the planes of KL have an economy load of 80 or 90% of the total number of seats on board. Look at
54 goldorak : No. The A319 Dedicate have both J and Y seats
55 Post contains links LY777 : I have found this thread on another forum: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/archive/t-368438.html I am not the only one that heard that, even though I h
56 Post contains links JCS : I think your question has been answerred and remarks to your orginal post have been made. Maybe you should search the internet for the orginal press-
57 KL577 : You are right, this was announced at the time of the merger. Specifically, it was mentioned that both brand names would continue to exist for at leas
58 LY777 : Thanks KL577. Everybody took me for a crazy
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