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Indian Govt: Indefinite Ban On A380 To India  
User currently offlinebastew From Australia, joined Sep 2006, 1027 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 31494 times:

India has 'no time frame' for permitting Airbus A380 flights into the country amid concern that travellers could desert local carriers, aviation minister Vayalar Ravi said yesterday. "If we allow the biggest aircraft to land here, they'll sweep up all the passengers," he said.

The International Herald Tribune notes that banning the world's largest passenger planes and other restrictions on overseas airlines' flying rights have cut competition for Air India, Jet Airways and Kingfisher Airlines, all of which are struggling to turn surging travel demand into profit amid high fuel costs and price competition.

Emirates and Lufthansa have both said they would use the A380 superjumbo on flights to India, if permitted.

97 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7572 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 31410 times:

In other words, either no Indian carrier will ever fly the A380, (I take it that there is no comparable ban on the B747-8) or there will suddenly be a seismic shift at some point.

It does not encourage anyone to fly on Indian carriers.

Will there be subsequent action taken against India, or will other countries simply stick with A340, B747, B777 etc.


User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 31375 times:

Quoting bastew (Thread starter):
India has 'no time frame' for permitting Airbus A380 flights into the country amid concern that travellers could desert local carriers, aviation minister Vayalar Ravi said yesterday. "If we allow the biggest aircraft to land here, they'll sweep up all the passengers," he said.

Ahh yeah that old evil market competition.... your right they may 'sweep up all your passengers' however your airlines will react and Darwin's theory will apply; survival of the fitest!

Quoting bastew (Thread starter):
The International Herald Tribune notes that banning the world's largest passenger planes and other restrictions on overseas airlines' flying rights have cut competition for Air India, Jet Airways and Kingfisher Airlines, all of which are struggling to turn surging travel demand into profit amid high fuel costs and price competition.

Would IT and 9W be struggling so much if AI was just allowed to die by the GOI? Honest question here people....


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30921 posts, RR: 87
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 31316 times:
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Quoting bennett123 (Reply 1):
In other words, either no Indian carrier will ever fly the A380, (I take it that there is no comparable ban on the B747-8) or there will suddenly be a seismic shift at some point.

I guess the 747-8 is not seen as a threat, since in LH config it seats 41 more than their 747-400, compared to 181 with their A380-800.

And the real "threat" will be EK's two-class A380-800s with a projected 644-653 seats.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3741 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 31310 times:

This doesn't look good for EK. Weren't they going to send a lot of high-density (600+ seat) A380s to India just so they could meet demand?

On a side note, does Kingfisher still have the A380 on order, or were they canceled?



Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlinepoLOT From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 31235 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 4):
On a side note, does Kingfisher still have the A380 on order, or were they canceled?

They still technically have them on order. I don't think anyone seriously believes they are going to take them at this point though.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7572 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 31128 times:

http://www.airfleets.net/ageflotte/Air%20India.htm

I was somewhat surprised at how young their WB fleet is, (apart from the B747-400's).

Agewise, their NB fleet is the main issue.

For Emirates, could they fly/increase flights to Pakistan and up into Western China. I dread to think of the reaction in India of A380's flying into Karachi and "mere" B777 into Delhi.

I doubt that Kingfisher will choose/be allowed to buy A380's.

Otherwise the GOI would have to ban them, (would'nt they).


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 31058 times:

Unbelievable, from now on I will boycott my local Indian restaurant!   

User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7572 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 30989 times:

Is it owned by GOI?.

User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 30927 times:

Quoting bastew (Thread starter):
"If we allow the biggest aircraft to land here, they'll sweep up all the passengers," he said.

I think we all have to respect his complete honesty. It will sweep up all his local passengers.

So any passenger travelling to India now has to continue to be squeezed into lesser aircraft? It will be interesting to see the response of Germany to this bizarre declaration.

In an economic face off between India and Germany, my money is on Germany.


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5473 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 30878 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 2):
Would IT and 9W be struggling so much if AI was just allowed to die by the GOI? Honest question here people....

Don't let common sense get in the way of Indian politics  



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 30853 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 8):
Is it owned by GOI?.

I have no clue, most probably not. But doesn't matter, it's kind of kin liability!  


User currently offlinevio From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 1414 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 30791 times:

Well... So I guess the EU should now ban any Indian carrier from flying anything larger than a 737/A320 into Europe? (well they could make a few stops along the way, can't they?)... Is this for real though, or is it a joke?


Superior decisions reduce the need for superior skills.
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 30794 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):

I guess the 747-8 is not seen as a threat, since in LH config it seats 41 more than their 747-400, compared to 181 with their A380-800.

However, LH can't fly the 747-8 to India either (due to restrictions on number of seats per flight).

Quoting poLOT (Reply 5):

They still technically have them on order. I don't think anyone seriously believes they are going to take them at this point though.

Or if they're still flying at time of delivery...


User currently offlineJL418 From Italy, joined Jun 2009, 493 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 30554 times:

It's this kind of news that fills my heart with relief: it doesn't mean that politicians with no sense of reality aren't just an Italian prerogative.

User currently offlineflyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 577 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 30380 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 13):
However, LH can't fly the 747-8 to India either (due to restrictions on number of seats per flight).

What is the No of seats for this restriction. First I hear this. This would depend on the no of first to business to economy seats.
So if there is no race for passengers, there might be a race for quality?

regards

Flyglobal


User currently offlinessublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 30381 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 6):
I doubt that Kingfisher will choose/be allowed to buy A380's.

Otherwise the GOI would have to ban them, (would'nt they).

No, GOI would just lift the restriction on A380.


User currently offlineQuokka From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 30358 times:

Quoting vio (Reply 12):
So I guess the EU should now ban any Indian carrier from flying anything larger than a 737/A320

This comes as no surprise as Germany was quite happy to sign the bilateral agreement that included the clauses limiting aircraft types/ size, number of seats sold, etc. So India barring access to the A380 is in line with the current agreements. The EU restricting India to smaller aircraft would be a breach of that agreement. Of course, Germany may request changes to the agreement but such changes would have to be acceptable to both parties. Perhaps there will be further discussions behind the scenes with the normal "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours."

At present India is opposed to a change that allows the use of the A380, just as at present Germany opposes any more than four destinations to designated carriers from the UAE and Canada restricts a total of 3 per week to EK and 3 per week to EY. Oh were the world of aviation covered by the principles of free trade and Open Skies were a reality, but there are too many vested interest blocking it.

Perhaps EK could start using those 653 seats into YYZ.  


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8344 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 30268 times:
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The EU should embargo Indian IT services, that woudl really get Dehli's eyes. The Indian airline industry is nothing compared to India's IT industry.

User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2611 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 30196 times:
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Would it be realistic to see Lufthansa allowed to operate their A380 into India if they accept Air India as a member of Star Alliance?

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 30125 times:

Quoting flyglobal (Reply 15):

What is the No of seats for this restriction. First I hear this. This would depend on the no of first to business to economy seats.
So if there is no race for passengers, there might be a race for quality?

I just looked at the seatcount for the 747-8I and if they're going to use the 386 configuration as currently on wiki then they're fine (they're allowed to offer 20,000 seats for 50 flights). However, in a thread some weeks ago someone claimed that LH would run into trouble with the 747-8I as well (which would suggest the number of seats isn't correct). Moreover the bilateral isn't clear if it's 400 seats per flight of 20,000 in total.

BTW the thread had an interesting link with all the Indian bilateral as of 2005.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8322 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 30072 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I guess the 747-8 is not seen as a threat, since in LH config it seats 41 more than their 747-400, compared to 181 with their A380-800.
And the real "threat" will be EK's two-class A380-800s with a projected 644-653 seats.

Both LH and EK are limited by the number of seats they can offer, not just the airplane type. So for LH to operate the 748i they'll have to make sure they don't go above the maximum number of seats allowed which could mean a reduction of frequencies.

This stance of the Indian gov. will only raise awareness of the A380 and make it that much more more desirable to Indian customers (what's that phase about the forbidden fruit?). Carriers can't fly the A380 to India but they can advertise their "connecting service on A380's". Thus I expect people will be paying more to fly on a carrier that lets them at least fly part way on the A380. EK via DXB or QR via DOH stand to gain from this but also AF/LH/SQ.

This could very well be the nail in the coffin for Indian carriers. If the Indian Gov. had just kept it quiet, the A380 effect would eventually go away when the novelty factor wore off. But now it's likely to intensify and have a far more detrimental effect to Indian carriers.


User currently offlineflyAUA From Austria, joined May 2005, 4604 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 30043 times:

Wow... never knew "we are in trouble, so we are going to force you to fly us instead of the competition" was ever an incentive to pick an airline. I am afraid this will result in even less traffic. Not really a solution Mr. Ravi   


Not drinking, also isn't a solution!
User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 883 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 29928 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 21):
This stance of the Indian gov. will only raise awareness of the A380 and make it that much more more desirable to Indian customers (what's that phase about the forbidden fruit?). Carriers can't fly the A380 to India but they can advertise their "connecting service on A380's". Thus I expect people will be paying more to fly on a carrier that lets them at least fly part way on the A380. EK via DXB or QR via DOH stand to gain from this but also AF/LH/SQ.

Yeah, I somehow doubt that. I am an aviation fanatic, but would not go out of my way to fly a particular aircraft, the only exception to that rule would be that I avoid A320's, but not at all cost.


User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4369 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 29746 times:

The GOI is taking the smartest approach to protecting India's economic interests.


Live life to the fullest.
25 AAExecPlat : The problem is that while they practice protectionism at home when it suits them, they are the greatest job destroyers in the very countries they are
26 JAAlbert : In light of the worldwide economic downturn (near collapse?) I wonder if it isn't wise to re-think this free-trade policy. In the US it has led to the
27 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Not sure what you mean by squeezed? Would you take J-Service in an A330 or Y in an A380?
28 gr8circle : Fortunately, governments operate with a little more common sense than is diplayed on a.net! What's IT got to do with airlines...? They are two comple
29 gr8circle : Companies in western countries outsource manufacturing and services to the likes of China and India, because they need to do so to survive in todays
30 Extra300 : IT is the code for Kingfisher airlines
31 airbazar : You don't have to go out of your way. BLR-DXB-JFK on EK is not out of the way. DEL-FRA-SFO on LH is not out of the way. BOM-CDG-IAD on AF is not out
32 DeltaMD90 : Wait, haven't a bunch of European countries restricted how much EK can fly into their countries? Now everyone is mad at India for doing the same thing
33 Post contains images Centre : So, it's true that passenger go out of their way to travel on the A380. I can only see this as a compliment to the A380, and not anything else.
34 na : The restriction with regards to EK are against a single, very aggressive carrier, which is able to sweep away several competitors when allowed whatev
35 CargoLex : I disagree. This kind of protectionism is likely to backfire, and disadvantage Indian travelers and tourists who come to India - which creates more e
36 DeltaMD90 : Perhaps they don't see it that way. I see your point, but I can also see why they would retaliate in this way. I'm sure they'll change this rule soon
37 Post contains images xdlx : The only reason they imposed the Ban is so they have time to make the required "rubber stamps" for that configuration.
38 blueprithvi : You guys need to cool down a bit... India is about place 20billion dollar worth of fighter jet order to European Countries.. either EADS Typhoon or R
39 victrola : The restriction with regards to EK are against a single, very aggressive carrier, which is able to sweep away several competitors when allowed whateve
40 Post contains images irshava : I think that completely eliminating the exploitation of the A380 in India isn't the way to go. However, the government can instead perhaps restrict th
41 dallasnewark : You are mistaken here, they are doing it to save costs, not to survive. And they often wind up paying more since outsourcing doesn't guarantee qualit
42 rbgso : So, does this ultimately get resolved (and I'm certain it will be) via some well-placed grease payments, or is there something else that will bring th
43 Post contains images gr8circle : Haha....thanks, I know.....but, in this case, I was referring to Information Technology.... I did, last year.....flew from BOM to HKG via SIN just to
44 AirlineCritic : Right on! I will boycott the biggest meal option in my local Indian restaurant. What right do they have to offer such meals? If they can offer larges
45 Post contains links and images lightsaber : Many of the existing bilaterals have language restricting aircraft 'up to the size of the 747.' Since the 748 is a 747, India would have trouble not
46 shanxz : Unbelievably myopic approach! Makes me feel really, really sad as an Indian!
47 david_itl : If I were EK, I think I'd make a Corsair a very lucrative deal to wet-lease at least 1 of their 747s.... the ones that seat 580. Perhaps India will t
48 Cessna172RG : I think we should ban all Indian aircraft that depart Indian airspace, bound for other countries, on the basis of this: -If the aircraft departs from
49 Post contains images lightsaber : Sorry to quote myself, but it looks like Australia and Korea has the right to fly any aircraft they chose to India (of nations likely to have their a
50 bennett123 : So LH use B747-8 and EK use B777, problem solved. They will need to use the A380 elsewhere. As I said before, doubtless Karachi would welcome A380 ser
51 Post contains images lightsaber : Or buy the 748I. Lightsaber
52 manny : I see no problem with that stance since its aimed at EK and its capacity dumping ways. Aren't European countries doing the same ?
53 bennett123 : I doubt if they will buy a sub fleet of B747-8 just for the Indian routes. Besides, how long before India thinks of a way of stopping that option. Per
54 airbazar : Plenty of carriers offer service as good and as efficient as EK so I don't see what your point is. They are doing it for instant gratification of the
55 david_itl : Have you got an examples of this capacity dumping?
56 Baroque : Indeed and maybe it will become a.net law that only Indians are clever enough to be able to tell what sort of aircraft they are going to use.
57 EUFlyer : It seems a bit crazy to me. To ban an aircraft because it can scoop passengers up, no airline using the A380 is using it with the maximum capicity, in
58 Quokka : EK, like LH, is subject to seat limitations on routes to India so any change in aircraft to accommodate extra number of passengers would have to be m
59 farzan : For the life of me I can't figure out what is special about flying EK. Flew PEK-DXB on EK in J on a 345. Seats were terrible, no flatbed not even ang
60 Post contains images RyanairGuru : Right now a Task Force is researching a White Paper to be presented to the Committee which is answerable to the Department about what said stamp shou
61 Post contains images lightsaber : Both KE and OZ would like to expand frequency, but they are capped to 7 flights per week (each). The logic works, but there is no legal right for mor
62 RyanairGuru : I didn't realise this. I knew that traffic rights between the UK and India were strictly limited, but didn't realise that this was something that GOI
63 Post contains images kiramakora : As much as I am an advocate of free market principles, as an Indian, I am proud of our government ... we have finally been able to learn a few tricks
64 DeltaMD90 : I'm interested to hear the other side of this argument, because as I brought up earlier, Western countries seem to be guilty of the same/similar thin
65 LAXDESI : At the top of the page it shows 16 frequencies for B747 type aircraft for a maximum of 6,400 seats--which is 400 seats per 747. As long as the 748 is
66 kiramakora : Most people in India do not care. For those of us in the loop with the current governments foreign policy (and they have been far more successful on
67 Post contains links and images lightsaber : You're trying to apply logic to Indian politics. Note: I take your side. I've watched a friend (IT executive) who pulled thousands of jobs from India
68 TheSonntag : With the notably difference that China is carefully listening to the west and adopting technology, while India is hurting itself with rediculous loca
69 Post contains images rheinwaldner : Thats what I thougth too. In the end India improves the business case of the 748 . Did Boeing donate the Indian government? At least EK won't be able
70 rajrs : True. Most of the indians do not care. But those who really cares are having same opinion as kiramakora mentioned in post no 63.
71 Post contains images HAWK21M : Wont last long....I bet.....You'll be back for that next meal soon On the topic.....I don't see an A380 being operated by an Indian operator for a lo
72 Post contains images lightsaber : That would be true if the Indian government wasn't 'trying to save AI' at any cost. AI just isn't stepping up to the plate from the customer's perspe
73 victrola : My point is instead of seeking protection from the government, Air India should make an effort to emulate the success of Emirates.
74 Nimish : I can't believe the number of folks complaining about India's policy regarding the 380! If India's important enough to need 380s flitting in and out,
75 victrola : The reason all of these things exist is because it's not currently deemed mutually beneficial to SPECIAL INTERESTS on both sides. These special inter
76 hohd : Pakistan avaition authorities have also banned A380 from Emirates and will probably not allow any one else to fly into Pakistan. EK apparently wanted
77 Post contains images airbazar : LH doesn't need UA. They already have LX/SN/OS in-house to do that for them if needed. They can just shift connecting traffic from LH to any of those
78 Post contains images lightsaber : That is the key point that most in this discussion. India is freezing bilaterals to preserve AI. That is, for some India industries, namely chemical
79 Post contains images airbazar : Easy fix: 5x A380 + 2x A330
80 Quokka : There is a curious irony in the decision to ban the A380 in that the MOU dated 10th May, 2007 between India and UAE (Dubai) stated; Emphasis added.
81 tonyban : The more I read this, the more ludicrous it sounds. So the Government of India has concerns that a 600 seat airplane will affect the local carriers. W
82 gr8circle : This billion figure, as pointed out many times in other threads, is meaningless.....the actual air travelling population is quite limited, although g
83 Post contains images airbazar : Gowing day by day is an understatement. It's growing by leaps and bounds, day by day The big irony in this for LH and other European and American car
84 Nimish : Yes, that's the stated concern. It certainly will, in time. Not with the first 380 to enter though. Well - there are 2 parties in any bribe - one giv
85 Post contains images SKAirbus : I read somewhere that the US government had similar concerns about Concorde before it came into service... Of course the reason was that it would caus
86 Post contains images airbazar : Sounds like that's exactly what they did, hence the ban
87 Quokka : Wasn't there another thread that suggested India had held out the offer of the A380 being given access if AI could join the club? Then the alliance s
88 Post contains images N14AZ : How did you know this!!! I really hope the Indian Gvmt. will reconsider this in the not too distant time so that the Indian people themeselves can de
89 art : If this is all about protecting Indian airlines, why not set an acceptable ceiling for service (ie no higher than service levels of Indian carriers)
90 brahmin : India does not want the 380 and Pakistan does not want the drones. This is Bollywood drama.
91 Post contains images lightsaber : Already in the bilaterals. Please see my prior link (mind you, that is circa 2005 data.) India has put in limits frequencies (number of weekly flight
92 tonyban : so what is the point of building new terminals at Delhi and Mumbai for ? you don't by a Rolls-Royce to have it pulled by a donkey!
93 gr8circle : Excuse me! The A380 is not the only plane in the world......BOM and DEL are amply served by a whole lot of airlines flying a whole lot of other aircr
94 777way : Pakistan was not allowing A380 either, though it was rumored that EK were willing to upgrade facilities at KHI for that, all this was a few years bac
95 HAWK21M : Airports serve aircraft & not Type of aircraft......Especially if its larger than normal requiring Infrastuructural revisions in airports.
96 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Those are not the bilaterals, just bare summaries. I don't know what your is about. I've never seen an air services bilateral (and I've seen many hun
97 HAWK21M : IT was the operator locally to order A380s....current situation looks unlikely they will take it.......A long time before A380 flies in an Indian oper
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