Quote: Qantas has earmarked 99 A320s for the Jetstar's operations in Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Vietnam and the recently announced joint-venture in Japan.
Some 11 aircraft were for Qantas's proposed new premium airline to be based in a yet-to-be-confirmed Asian hub city, with Singapore or Kuala Lumpur the leading candidates.
I imagine that the non-NEO aircraft will be delivered with the same IAE's v2500s as the existing fleet...
Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 1): Although would be interesting to see if they are looking at introducing the A320 to the mainline fleet.
Very unlikely (though I'd love to see some A321s to help speed up 763ER retirements). QF still have a dozen or so B738s on order for the next 18 months or so and are pretty committed to that type for domestic operations for now.
American 767 From United States of America, joined exactly 14 years ago today! , 3320 posts, RR: 14 Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 12662 times:
Quoting scbriml (Reply 4): This Qantas order also takes the A320 family over the 8,000 sales mark!
I don't mean to raise an A vs B war but I have a feeling that the A32X will beat the 737. The 737 which has been made in 9 variants (100 thru 900) has existed for over 40 years and the A320 which has been made in 4 variants (A318/319/320/321) has existed for only 25 years. The next challenge will be that of beating the legendary DC-3.
Ben Soriano
"Aimer jusqu'a l'impossible, c'est possible". Tina Arena.
RoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8737 posts, RR: 52 Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11812 times:
Great news to see an order for Qantas. However the timing is a bit difficult. The various unions are on the edge of striking, and my experience in the past is that it only fires unions up more when airplanes are being ordered. The logic I've heard is that, if the airline is able to put money down and buy more airplanes, then they have enough money to meet union demands. It might not be sound logic and good for the overall health of the company, but announcing large orders when the workforce is about to walk out is not always a good thing.
I also am curious as to where the planes will go. Jetstar seems to be where Qantas wants to grow. They are growing in Asia completely independently from their home market.
I'm also confused on why the Jetstar fleet is being maintained as different from the Qantas fleet. With more 738s on order for Qantas and now additional A320 baseline airplanes for Jetstar in addition to A320NEOs, I think we have no idea what Qantas mainline will do if the order is for Jetstar alone.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
qf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2549 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 11489 times:
Quoting mac3xx (Reply 5): Heard that JQ intend to open a branch in Japan and use A320 for this expansion plan.
Yes, they are creating Jetstar Japan as a joint venture with JAL and Mitsubishi. Initially going to open operations next year with 3 (?) A320s then grow from there.
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7): if the airline is able to put money down and buy more airplanes, then they have enough money to meet union demands.
Well for starters some of this money was already allocated -- to the 6 A380s that have been deferred. It's also important to remember that the unions demands are directed at Qantas as an airline, not to Qantas as a Group. In reality this order has nothing at all to do with Qantas as an airline, though I do see where you're coming from. Haven't heard the unions leaping onto it yet though, so they might be willing to acknowledge that it's got nothing to do with what they're campaigning for...
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7): I'm also confused on why the Jetstar fleet is being maintained as different from the Qantas fleet. With more 738s on order for Qantas and now additional A320 baseline airplanes for Jetstar in addition to A320NEOs, I think we have no idea what Qantas mainline will do if the order is for Jetstar alone.
QF deliberately tried to make JQ more independently managed from the beginning -- many believe that self-management is one of the factors that have contributed to it's success. JQ chose the A320 for their domestic operations and have continued to use the same type expanding into Asia. There's no real reason for both airlines to fly the same fleet of narrowbodies, and silly as it may seem having distinctly different fleets helps differentiate the airlines for the customer.
Qantas has another dozen+ B738s to come on their existing order, and most recent deliveries have been replacing older planes (ie 734s) so I don't see any need for much more expansion until the end of the decade (of course this is just my opinion), when they are likely to be a customer for the MAX (or NEO is that's how they decide to swing.)
dave2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10021 times:
Don't count Boeing out yet. More B737 have been produced than the A320 family and that represents a very large base. It boil down to costs. What an airline has to pay for the new planes. I suspect it will ultimately be about a 50/50 split in business in the B737/A320 class of single isle aircraft.
SunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 3945 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9836 times:
Quoting dave2 (Reply 9): I suspect it will ultimately be about a 50/50 split in business in the B737/A320 class of single isle aircraft.
Neither A or B can supply much more than 50% of the market over a period of time. Unless one increases capacity dramatically it will always be a roughly 50:50 share.
TheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3347 posts, RR: 30 Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 9120 times:
Quoting scbriml (Reply 11): I can't see it. I don't see any reason why the 737MAX won't sell in similarly large numbers as the A320NEO.
Well that depends on when a real successor for both airplanes becomes available that beats the NEO and the 737 by a huge margin, so that both manufacturers must come forward with something entirely new.
gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5216 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8135 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7): I'm also confused on why the Jetstar fleet is being maintained as different from the Qantas fleet. With more 738s on order for Qantas and now additional A320 baseline airplanes for Jetstar in addition to A320NEOs, I think we have no idea what Qantas mainline will do if the order is for Jetstar alone.
The thing you have to remember about the QF/JQ relationship is that QF did NOT set up JQ. JQ was founded as a competitor to the QF/AN duopoly (as was DJ) and named Impulse Airlines which ordered the MD95s. It also had one of the first enterprise bargaining agreements in Australia and thus had very good wages, work rules and conditions (from the employer side). When Impulse was purchased by QF, the then CEO was determined to keep it different from QF to preserve the cost advantages it had. So when it became time to expand and supplement/replace the MD95s, JQ decided there was nothing in it between the B737 & A320 so the QF board decided on the A320 to accordance with its policy of keeping JQ & QF as separate as possible. (This is a simplified version, there are other twists and turns I am aware of and most likely, many others I am not aware of).
It seems obvious to me, but I could be wrong, that JQ mission for the QF group has changed from being an Australian domestic LCC via being an Australian domestic/international LCC to being the entity for QF in concert with local partners, to expand beyond just Australian operations so it is QFs means to tap into Asian growth and generate profits greater than anything they could hope to achieve just within Australia.
Will they be successful? Who knows, but good luck to them, it's a gutsy move with a lot of promise.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25852 posts, RR: 80 Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7695 times:
Quoting qf002 (Reply 3): (though I'd love to see some A321s to help speed up 763ER retirements)
Uh, the A321 is in no way, shape or form a replacement for the 763.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
dave2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7026 times:
I decided to look at the Airbus web site to see what they said there count was for the A320 family and it is listed as 7926.
Slarty From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 342 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6906 times:
Given that Europe is going into a 2008++++ crisis, the buyers are going to get a lock-in to buy at discounted future prices. Why is this such a surprise?
dave2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6794 times:
Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 10): Quoting dave2 (Reply 9):
I suspect it will ultimately be about a 50/50 split in business in the B737/A320 class of single isle aircraft.
Neither A or B can supply much more than 50% of the market over a period of time. Unless one increases capacity dramatically it will always be a roughly 50:50 share.
The wild card would be one of the manufactures of "small" jetliners enter into the narrow body field.. Examples are Embraer, Canadair, China's new entry and a distant possibility - Sukhoi's Superjet 100 all are talking about aircraft up to the 150 seat level.
Your question about neither can build than 50%. In general I agree. However, up till Airbus brought out he A320 family, the market was between McDonnell Douglas and Boeing (with a small amount for others). Either company (Boeing/Airbus) can build new facilities to expand as Boeing is looking at now.
I wonder just how long these huge buys can continue? Will the market continue expanded (other than replacements)? Major limitations today is concrete (space for airports to expand. Lots of questions.
prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6016 posts, RR: 55 Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5700 times:
Quoting Slarty (Reply 17): Given that Europe is going into a 2008++++ crisis, the buyers are going to get a lock-in to buy at discounted future prices. Why is this such a surprise?
What news media do you subscribe to?
There is no European 2008++++ crisis. There is a 2011 crisis about a few Euro-zone countries which "forgot" to collect taxes to cover national spending since it was easier to borrow the money. And now they are forced to cut national spending since nobody is eager to throw more money at them.
This has little or no impact on the airline industry. And besides, I am European, and outside Euro-zone, and I have no crisis. I could easily spend twice as much money as I do, so could my government, but that's a different story.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
ghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 751 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4719 times:
Comparing the current QF and JQ fleet, it looks like QF will have a total of ~70 738, and JW will have a total of ~70 A320 (prior to this order).
Why did JQ, being a subsidiary of QF ever order that many A320's to start with? Couldn't Boeing have given them some sweet deal to have that many 738s?
Not to say that it matters. After all.. such a large order seems to indicate that QF/JQ isn't quite ready to succumb to competition.
Airvan00 From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 710 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4677 times:
Quoting ghifty (Reply 21): Why did JQ, being a subsidiary of QF ever order that many A320's to start with? Couldn't Boeing have given them some sweet deal to have that many 738s?
RyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 2493 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4605 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7): The various unions are on the edge of striking, and my experience in the past is that it only fires unions up more when airplanes are being ordered. The logic I've heard is that, if the airline is able to put money down and buy more airplanes, then they have enough money to meet union demands
Don't forget the unions which are lining up to take a swing at QF are all mainline, whereas none of these planes are going to be flown by mainline crews. If anything it gives the company some power: accept cuts and you too could grow...
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7): I'm also confused on why the Jetstar fleet is being maintained as different from the Qantas fleet.
Quoting ghifty (Reply 21): Why did JQ, being a subsidiary of QF ever order that many A320's to start with? Couldn't Boeing have given them some sweet deal to have that many 738s?
Further to Gemuser said about a desire from the very beginning to entrench a QF v JQ divide in the company, I believe that the initial batch were free/heavily discounted as A380 compensation
Quoting N1120A (Reply 14): Uh, the A321 is in no way, shape or form a replacement for the 763.
For Australian domestic it definitely could be. SYD-BNE instantly springs to mind as a suitable route for the A321: at present it is something of a 50:50 split between 763 and 734/8. Meet half-way, retire the (disgusting and ancient) 767s and free up 737s for growth. To a lessor extent the same logic could be applied to SYD-MEL, although that route is almost exclusively WB now so the A321 would be a capacity cut. SYD-CBR could be another A321 market: get rid of the ridiculous situation where (at the moment) they have a 737 and DH8 departing 5 minutes apart.
ghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 751 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4526 times:
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23): Further to Gemuser said about a desire from the very beginning to entrench a QF v JQ divide in the company, I believe that the initial batch were free/heavily discounted as A380 compensation
Thanks.. and sorry. Interesting little piece of trivia. Funny to see that the QF/AN duopoly has been *replaced* by a QF/DJ duopoly, in which QF is losing ground.
Fly Delta Jets
25 qf002: Are you sure about that? Airbus announced the first A380 delays in 2005, and the Jetstar order was announced in 2003 and they started taking aircraft
26 Baroque: Bloody hell, free Airbii again. We would (apparently) be amazed at how liberal and devious Airbus are with their free aircraft. A wonder that Airbus
27 Asiaflyer: QF received a cash compensation from Airbus for the A380 delays, IIRC around AUD 90 Mio.
28 thegeek: Re: JQ A320, I'm pretty sure the QF 737 pilot award has the aircraft type in it. They wanted to make damn sure that this couldn't be applied to the JQ
29 JMM99: Must be a lot of QF routes that will become JQ only very soon. Will Qantas domestic extend beyond BNE/SYD/MEL/CBR/ADL/PER in not too distant future ?
31 qf002: Where else do you want them to fly? They have the entire country pretty comprehensively covered besides a few routes which are JQ only (OOL springs t
32 StickShaker: I expect it will not only continue but expand in magnitude. There is a population of several hundred million in various Asian countries that will und
33 thegeek: I second this. Even fuel prices hitting $US200 wouldn't prevent this from happening.
34 JMM99: What I meant is that all the industrial problems at QF mainline at present, surely some routes that are QF & JQ nowq, will become JQ only very VE
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