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Air Canada FA's Reject 2nd Tentative Agreement  
User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 796 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5242 times:

It will be interesting to see where this goes from here. The federal government has already shown they are willing to legislate them back to work. Perhaps they will try a CHAOS campaign.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ct-for-second-time/article2196189/

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1833 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 5179 times:

From AC's website:

http://www.aircanada.com/en/news/trav_adv/labour_updates.html

I've been a devoted WS customer for as long as I have been flying, but I decided last week that I would take my first AC flight (out of pure scheduling convenience) next week...on October 15th.   

They better be legislated back to work or they've lost by business forever. This is getting annoying. A friend of mine is an f/a with AC and she has always spoken highly about the terms of her contract, this leads me to believe that CUPE is being just slightly overzealous...



Flying refined.
User currently offlinebmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5141 times:

Anyone know when was the last Air Canada FA strike?


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineykaops From Canada, joined Nov 2010, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5041 times:

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 2):
I've been a devoted WS customer for as long as I have been flying, but I decided last week that I would take my first AC flight (out of pure scheduling convenience) next week...on October 15th.

They better be legislated back to work or they've lost by business forever. This is getting annoying. A friend of mine is an f/a with AC and she has always spoken highly about the terms of her contract, this leads me to believe that CUPE is being just slightly overzealous...

Frankly you are just being a bit overzealous yourself and show no respect for what employees are trying to negotiate.. which is based solely on their retirement and pensions so they can enjoy their retirement, it isn't about how much they get paid per flight hour, or per diems, bidding rights or seniority.. it's about retirement! Maybe you shud get the facts and stand behind them on their plight for a fair pension settlement.. but then again you may make a 6 figure income on wall street and dont give a rats a-s....

As a union member I stand behind them all the way! And , no, I am not with CUPE or an AC employee ....

[Edited 2011-10-09 19:14:26]

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1833 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4968 times:

Quoting ykaops (Reply 3):

I guess you missed the part where I said a good friend of mine is one of those AC union members and has never complained ONCE about ANY of the terms of her contract. I don't "make a 6 figure income on wall street", but I speak to the facts and opinions that have been presented to me.

Oh, and by the way, pension is only one of *several* issues being negotiated at present. Please do some more reading into the topic before flaming me.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineq120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4907 times:

Air Canada is in a tough position... and the Union is not going to back down from this one. I absolutely cant stand unions, I say this because they have lost their main focus, its become a game of greed now if anything. But for pensions, I am on their side. If you work for the company and put in your time there and were entitled for it during your work-term than you deserve it.

Companies should take care of their employees, whether you are retired or active.



However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlinequiet1 From Thailand, joined Apr 2010, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 4633 times:

Quoting ykaops (Reply 3):
Frankly you are just being a bit overzealous yourself and show no respect for what employees are trying to negotiate.. which is based solely on their retirement and pensions so they can enjoy their retirement, it isn't about how much they get paid per flight hour, or per diems, bidding rights or seniority.. it's about retirement!

I wonder if those who moan about the "older" F/A's working the aisles realize that a decent retirement package is an incentive to get them out of the aisles and replaced by new hires.

I know several F/A's who had mapped out retirement plans that were totally shot out of the water when UA ditched the pensions during bankruptcy and many of these folks are flying way past their intended & expected retirement dates out of financial necessity. According to what I've read, it hit F/As in their 50's & 60's the hardest as they have little time to grow a 401k fund to make up the shortfall.

But, silly me, I've read in these forums that F/As are simply overpaid automatons undeserving of union protection of any sort, much less a retirement package.  


User currently offlineYXD172 From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4587 times:

Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the last two contracts been accepted by the unions during negotiations, but then rejected by the FAs themselves in votes? So this really has nothing to with any 'union greed' from the upper echelons of the unions. It's the FAs not accepting the new contract, though this vote was closer to being accepted than the last (35% for now vs. 12% for in August), so maybe next time it'll go through   


Radial engines don't leak oil, they are just marking their territory!
User currently offlinepeterj From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 43 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4433 times:

Quoting YXD172 (Reply 7):
Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the last two contracts been accepted by the unions during negotiations, but then rejected by the FAs themselves in votes?

That is my understanding as well. The membership is rejecting the agreements.

I was not surprised to wake up this morning and see that the government is prepared to introduce back to work legislation:
http://www.vancouversun.com/business...a+work+stoppage/5527610/story.html


User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4408 times:

Quoting YXD172 (Reply 7):
Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the last two contracts been accepted by the unions during negotiations, but then rejected by the FAs themselves in votes? So this really has nothing to with any 'union greed' from the upper echelons of the unions

But we don't know what the Union is telling the membership ... even though the Union accepted AC's contract they still could be using that and telling the membership that this is all AC is willing to offer it and persuading the membership not to accept it.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlinesebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4376 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 9):

But we don't know what the Union is telling the membership ... even though the Union accepted AC's contract they still could be using that and telling the membership that this is all AC is willing to offer it and persuading the membership not to accept it.

That would be bargaining in bad faith. When a tentative agreement is signed, all members of the union and management negotiating committees are bound by it, and bound to promote it. If a union doesn't agree with the offer, it can put it to a vote, but then that is not an agreement.

Right now, the union is at the point where it is dangerously exposed. The slowest point of the travel calendar is about to begin, and Air Canada might welcome a chance to lock out the flight attendants. The union needs the back to work legislation more than the company.


User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

Quoting sebring (Reply 10):
Right now, the union is at the point where it is dangerously exposed. The slowest point of the travel calendar is about to begin, and Air Canada might welcome a chance to lock out the flight attendants. The union needs the back to work legislation more than the company.

Putting all other considerations aside this might be ACs best strategy, but there is no way they will do this after the Feds have basically said any work stoppage will harm the economy and thus they will intervene. Given the industry, it is not a wise idea to annoy the government.

My impression is that the Feds will introduce back-to-work legislation at a pay scale slightly lower than ACs last offer to incentivize a(nother) negotiated settlement.


User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4245 times:

Quoting sebring (Reply 10):
That would be bargaining in bad faith. When a tentative agreement is signed, all members of the union and management negotiating committees are bound by it, and bound to promote it. If a union doesn't agree with the offer, it can put it to a vote, but then that is not an agreement.

Yes I do know how it works, but it happens more often than one thinks. I'm not suggesting that CUPE is in-fact doing this, but if they were it wouldn't surprise me in the least.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1833 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4176 times:

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 12):
Yes I do know how it works, but it happens more often than one thinks. I'm not suggesting that CUPE is in-fact doing this, but if they were it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Agreed. I've heard many stories from my professors of unions muddying up the offers a bit when presenting them to the voting union members. Pretty greasy tactic but CUPE is definitely not above it.

Quoting sebring (Reply 10):
Right now, the union is at the point where it is dangerously exposed. The slowest point of the travel calendar is about to begin, and Air Canada might welcome a chance to lock out the flight attendants. The union needs the back to work legislation more than the company.

   Even though I have an upcoming AC flight that would screw me over pretty well if it were delayed or cancelled, I would not blame AC for a second. Both parties would be significantly hurt, but the F/As have a lot more to lose than an organization who the government backs entirely. The real winners in this situation will be the Jazz F/As who fill in and get that sweet, sweet strikebreaker pay. But I can almost guarantee that there will be legislation, so I'm not sweating too badly over it.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4119 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 13):
But I can almost guarantee that there will be legislation, so I'm not sweating too badly over it.

For back to work legislation, the workers must be on strike. The government can not table this until a strike starts, so it really is a matter of how fast our government can work.

I am guessing three days on strike before the legislation can be enacted.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinedelta2ual From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 620 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3875 times:

Quoting q120 (Reply 5):
I absolutely cant stand unions, I say this because they have lost their main focus, its become a game of greed

Those darn greedy workers. If only they would focus less on their pensions and keeping up with inflation and more on lining the pockets of executives-like the corporations do.  



From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3745 times:

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 15):
Those darn greedy workers. If only they would focus less on their pensions and keeping up with inflation and more on lining the pockets of executives-like the corporations do.

Not to mention the managers and upper management of AC gave themselves $39M in bonuses last year ... ON TOP of their salaries!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1833 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3662 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 16):
Not to mention the managers and upper management of AC gave themselves $39M in bonuses last year ... ON TOP of their salaries!

Looks like they took a page out of Qantas' book (62% pay raise for top 8 executives), and that isn't even bonuses!

We should just get rid of the unions and implement profit-sharing a la "I'm a WestJet owner"  



Flying refined.
User currently offlineSkywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 460 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

There are rarely profits to share at AC.

[Edited 2011-10-11 11:12:52]

User currently offlineC172Akula From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 1000 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3628 times:

I head the government backup plan is to actually let EK start doing all the flying for AC, international, transborder, and domestic...  

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 42
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 17):
We should just get rid of the unions and implement profit-sharing a la "I'm a WestJet owner"
Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 18):
There are rarely profits to share at AC.

There actually is profit sharing at AC, however ... creative accounting has lead to union grievances. In other words, the profits made since the last contract the F/As signed, still has not paid them a profit sharing cheque.

And ... this offer of a contract "wiped the slate clean" of all outstanding grievances, including the unpaid profit sharing cheques!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3502 times:

Labour Minister says this dispute is going to the Canadian Industrial Relations Board. No strike can occur while the board deliberates.

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1833 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):
There actually is profit sharing at AC, however ... creative accounting has lead to union grievances. In other words, the profits made since the last contract the F/As signed, still has not paid them a profit sharing cheque.

And ... this offer of a contract "wiped the slate clean" of all outstanding grievances, including the unpaid profit sharing cheques!

My minimal law education tells me that this is less of a grievance and more of cause for legal action. It's unfortunate that AC abuses such a great idea with tricky accounting. Under the right circumstances (and management) profit-sharing has shown to be an extremely effective tool.

Quoting saloman (Reply 21):
Labour Minister says this dispute is going to the Canadian Industrial Relations Board. No strike can occur while the board deliberates.

The article can be found here for those that are interested.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineSkywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 460 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3431 times:

What specifically is the "creative accounting" that "hides" profits. Is AC not a public company that must follow the same disclosure rules as all other large corporations?
Is it possible that they are in fact losing money most quarters, year after year instead?

I've looked at investing in AC. I have a finance background. The numbers are absolutely horrible.


User currently offlineykaops From Canada, joined Nov 2010, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
The real winners in this situation will be the Jazz F/As who fill in and get that sweet, sweet strikebreaker pay.

LOL.. Jazz F/A's are not qualified on any of the AC mainline aircraft types, nor would they entertain such an idea...

Where did you come up with this ludicrous idea that QK members would cross picket lines to work mainline flights... hell QK barely has enough F/A's to work their own route plans.


25 longhauler : That certainly wasn't my quote. How'd you do that?
26 ykaops : Pensions were the hold out on rejecting the last round, everything else was acceptable... Yes, I have my facts straight, and yes, I also was on parli
27 longhauler : I won't "specifically" answer that, however "generally" AC has (publicly) made a profit since the last contract was signed. And AC has yet to pay a p
28 Post contains images WestJet747 : All of QK's F/As only have training on aircraft that have less than 75 seats? I'm not being sarcastic, I just seriously doubt this. Good question Mig
29 Post contains images canadianpylon : *sigh* IMHO, all of this government interference is getting in the way of the negotiation process. All of the negotiations seem to have occurred unde
30 9252fly : I find the whole thing bizarre! The Air Canada Act only adds to the murkiness of AC role in the aviation market. For a company that has been privatiz
31 Post contains links saloman : http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/labour/employment_standards/regulated.shtml Airlines are a federally regulated industry in Canada. For numerous more obviou
32 ACDC8 : I've been in 2 Unions that have done this in the past (actually, the only 2 Unions I've been in) and I know of one more that also has practiced it. I
33 Post contains images BE77 : Bug in the system... If you highlight some text from person A's post, but use the "Quote Selected Text" button from someone else's post (say person B
34 canadianpylon : Federally Regulation and National Crown Corporations (Nationalization) are two separate things. That is my whole point. The Feds and Air Canada are b
35 airontario : QK FA's are only certified on Dash 8's, CRJ 100/200 and 705's. Most of the YYZ and YUL FA's are qualified on the 757, and some YYZ FA's are qualified
36 bmacleod : I'll ask this question again since I can't seem to google anything on AC strikes but does anyone know when AC FA's last went on strike?
37 whiteguy : 1996 I believe.
38 Skywatcher : In response to the "generally profitable" comment above, AC's financial results since 2008 have been; 2008 loss 9.14/share 2009 loss 0.09/share 2010 p
39 longhauler : I never said Air Canada was "generally profitable", in fact it is not ... by design. That was in answer to your "specifically" how has there been cre
40 StarAC17 : Thing is they often don't and for the few companies that do its a constant struggle between doing what is morally right and making more $$, especiall
41 Post contains links AirCanada787 : I don't have a lot of time to comment on it now as I have to run, but last night a armed man showed up at the home of Air Canada's COO and made a thre
42 WestJet747 : WOW! This is just an unfortunate story. Thank you for posting. This feud is getting ridiculous and should have never gotten to this point. I was list
43 pnwtraveler : Unfortunately, this isn't uncommon when you are involved in militant workers and unions. My dad was parachuted in to run a plant in another city that
44 Post contains images ykaops : No, there are a number that are qualified on the B757, and more being trained now. Remember QK ops the B757 for Thomas Cook
45 Post contains images connies4ever : Interesting twist on this story from the Labour Minister, Lisa Raitt. Seems she recently accepted a freeebie upgrade to J from Y YYZ-YOW (what is a fe
46 Skywatcher : My Dad (he was management) drove a truck during the Pratt & Whitney Canada strike in the seventies. The union goons tried to run him off a bridge
47 Post contains links ACDC8 : Going back to the topic of bargaining in bad faith. AC is accusing CUPE of such ... http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-story-65990-4-.htm#65990
48 Post contains links RIXrat : Air Canada trudges on. Strike averted. http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/can...ke-grounded-for-now-131772588.html
49 ACDC8 : At least until the Canada Industrial Relations Board comes up with a ruling on finding FA's essential services or not.
50 bmacleod : Rumor has it the guy who threatened VP Duncan Dee may be married to one of the FA's....[Edited 2011-10-15 10:46:01]
51 lychemsa : AC crews are great. It's the Senior Management that sucks. I feel sorry for the employees who have to deal with them. The management have no clue when
52 longhauler : It has been announced that in fact the "threat" was someone drove by Mr. Dee's house, with something in the automobile that may (or may not) have loo
53 WestJet747 : Calin Rovinescu is a lawyer actually. His "investment banker" experience is limited to a 5-year stint between executive positions at AC. He no longer
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