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Delta Cutting ARN And PHL-CDG For Good?  
User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 917 posts, RR: 2
Posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 9630 times:

Delta's route maps at http://www.delta.com/planning_reserv...ions/download_route_maps/index.jsp no longer show JFK-ARN or PHL-CDG, which were discontinued for the winter season. However, it still shows other routes that were also discontinued for this winter with plans to resume next summer. Looks like ARN is gone for good?
-ATL-SVO
-JFK-TXL (will resume as JFK-BER)
-JFK-MAN
-JFK-CPH

Last year, additional China routes (DTW-PEK, ATL-PVG) were spotted on the same maps as future routes prior to their official announcement.

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6671 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9259 times:

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):

I said in another thread that PHL-CDG was getting cut because over the summer it was announced they were doing so. But a few users said it was only a seasonal cut so IDK...?



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8804 times:

Another poster summed it up the best in another thread. It was an opinion, but something I agree with. Airline cycles go up and down with the economy, and the economy is lousy now. I'd be surprised not seeing routes cut but when the economy rebounds and cycles back up, many routes like JFK-ARN might reappear. I also heard that PHL/PIT - CDG were getting the axe, don't know about ARN...


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1189 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8471 times:

ARN is news to us, Last we were told that JFK-ARN would be coming back the first week in June.

User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4927 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8416 times:
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JFK-ARN and PHL-CDG are all still loaded in various reservations systems and bookable from June 1 onwards. However if the discontinuation is true (which it appears to be, based on the map), they could be removed this coming weekend. Also, it looks like CPH only has one "line" now (from the map), but I can't see whether it is to/from JFK or ATL.
On the other hand, ATL-TLV has been pulled for next summer as well but the map still shows two routes to TLV - JFK and ATL.....


User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3432 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8007 times:

I wouldn't put too much weight on a route map as a determining factor of which routes will still be around next summer. Some airlines remove seasonal routes from their winter routemaps, some specifically label them, and some just keep them.

However with that said I wouldn't be surprised to see CDG-PHL go. Wasn't this one of AF lower performing routes hence why it went to DL?


User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7745 times:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 5):
I wouldn't put too much weight on a route map as a determining factor of which routes will still be around next summer. Some airlines remove seasonal routes from their winter routemaps, some specifically label them, and some just keep them.

Delta does not remove seasonal routes from its route maps.


User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1214 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7013 times:

Quoting simairlinenet (Thread starter):
Looks like ARN is gone for good?

The map is probably not any good indication to judge if the route is gone for good or not. I think you need information from other sources than that. And for good would indicate the route is gone forever. Delta has made interruptions on services to Stockholm before and come back again.

But Delta is not doing well in the Stockholm market. One reason is that Star Alliance is much stronger in Sweden since SAS is a member. So United / Continental is doing much better than Delta especially in the high yield segment.



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6937 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 4):
JFK-ARN and PHL-CDG are all still loaded in various reservations systems and bookable from June 1 onwards.

PHL-CDG is actually bookable starting 25Mar. I'm not sure why the route map my not be updated but in general I tend to follow this logic too:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 5):
I wouldn't put too much weight on a route map as a determining factor of which routes will still be around next summer. Some airlines remove seasonal routes from their winter routemaps, some specifically label them, and some just keep them.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4927 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6505 times:
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Quoting panamair (Reply 4):
if the discontinuation is true (which it appears to be, based on the map)

Actually, I take my words back....I went back to look at the route map in the Sky Magazine and it appears that the route map without ARN and PHL-CDG was already in the September issue of Sky, which means that the route map was 'updated' sometime in July/August at the latest. However, both JFK-ARN and PHL-CDG have both remained in reservations systems all this time; if the decision was to cut them, they would have been removed from various GDS by now already.

Looks like this may have been a mistake on the route map....


User currently offlinejetsetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 448 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5305 times:

Quoting Navigator (Reply 7):
One reason is that Star Alliance is much stronger in Sweden since SAS is a member. So United / Continental is doing much better than Delta especially in the high yield segment.

Although US struggles to make PHL-ARN work...as well as PHL-OSL. Would US enter the CPH market?


User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1214 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5112 times:

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 10):
Although US struggles to make PHL-ARN work...as well as PHL-OSL. Would US enter the CPH market?

I think there is overcapacity in both the US - CPH and US - OSL markets now so Arlanda would be a better option. However this market is used to high service levels so the only US carrier that has managed to stay is Continental (United) others have failed getting a foot among swedish passengers. This makes those routes seasonal and only viable when americans go on holiday to Stockholm. Swedish passengers tend to prefer Scandinavian Airlines and Continental for service reasons. To put it simple US carriers have a problem getting enough year round business traffic to and from Sweden so yields probably are lower for them than for SK.

First thing to do for US and Delta is to give a better product and only after that I think they will be able to compete on routes to Stockholm year round.



747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlinebrissedk From Denmark, joined Nov 2007, 383 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4976 times:

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 10):
Although US struggles to make PHL-ARN work...as well as PHL-OSL. Would US enter the CPH market?

Stranger things have happened before, so why not. But it would only last if they manage to setup a codeshare arrangement with SK for connections beyond CPH - and for whatever strange reasons SK is not likely to go for that.

Cheers,
BJ



Frequent flyer based in CPH - mostly heading to: OSL, HEL, KEF, FAE and EWR
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7534 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4388 times:

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 5):
Wasn't this one of AF lower performing routes hence why it went to DL?

With regards to DL's PHL-CDG being a former AF route, yes.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineArn777 From Sweden, joined Jul 2010, 205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4299 times:

Quoting Navigator (Reply 11):
I think there is overcapacity in both the US - CPH and US - OSL markets now so Arlanda would be a better option.

I do not know any details about the US-CPH market and think you are right about under capacity on the US-ARN market, but there is for sure not over capacity on the US-OSL market. The number of seats available between the US and OSL have increased every year ever since CO started their direct service and the route have been one of the top preforming TATL routes (before SAS entered). SAS OSL-EWR route is preforming very well and much better than expected. CCO Robin Kamark in SAS has said that they have been looking at options to keep the route daily all winter long. On the other hand it will most likely happen because a lack of aircraft. There has also been talk about taking capacity from ARN but that will not happen without a fight from Swedish biz customers. SAS representatives has also said the the OSL-EWR route are one of the top preforming one in SAS IC since it started in March this year.

In addition there are more Norwegians visiting the US than Danes in spite of a larger amount of direct seats from CPH than OSL (knowing that direct service increases traffic). Knowing this I hardly think that there is over capacity on US-OSL market.

You also have to remember that Norway hardly has any unemployment (that's why I'm here..), have by far the highest GDP in Scandinavia, by far have the most millionaires ($) regardless of per capita or not, the highest purchasing power and high prosperity to travel (especially domestically but also internationally.

Wow that was a bit too much pro-Norway from a Swede...:D


User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1189 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4064 times:

It doesn't help that Delta uses the worst product on JFK-ARN/CPH/MAN
The former NW 757. Internally known as the 75A.


User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4927 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3960 times:
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Quoting cokepopper (Reply 15):
It doesn't help that Delta uses the worst product on JFK-ARN/CPH/MAN
The former NW 757. Internally known as the 75A

They did switch JFK-CPH to the 75E this past summer though. Right now, both JFK-FRA and JFK-BRU are loaded as 767s for next year (75Es this past summer), so hopefully that frees up two more 75Es for routes such as JFK-ARN next summer...


User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17080 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 15):
It doesn't help that Delta uses the worst product on JFK-ARN/CPH/MAN
The former NW 757. Internally known as the 75A.

Those aircraft dont have PTVs, right?



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinepanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4927 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3898 times:
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Quoting B747forever (Reply 17):
Those aircraft dont have PTVs, right?

No, and even Business Class has no PTVs in the seats; the flight attendants have to hand out portable AVOD units to J passengers....

[Edited 2011-10-11 13:07:10]

User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17080 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3838 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 18):
No, and even Business Class has no PTVs in the seats; the flight attendants have to hand out portable AVOD units to J passengers....

No wonder they cannot compete with CO (UA) and SK.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinecokepopper From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1189 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3613 times:

Quoting panamair (Reply 18):
No, and even Business Class has no PTVs in the seats; the flight attendants have to hand out portable AVOD units to J passengers....

And at best you have a 50/50 chance of them actually working 


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2214 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3248 times:

Quoting jetsetter629 (Reply 10):
Although US struggles to make PHL-ARN work...as well as PHL-OSL. Would US enter the CPH market?

PHL-ARN and PHL-OSL were both terminated indefinitely several years ago.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17080 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3224 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 21):
PHL-ARN and PHL-OSL were both terminated indefinitely several years ago.

Didnt US terminate the ARN service a year before the OSL service?



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2214 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 22):

Didnt US terminate the ARN service a year before the OSL service?

No, I believe they both flew from PHL concurrently at least in Summer '09. That is when OSL was launched, along with BHX (and both have been terminated since, operating on a seasonal basis from the get-go).

I want to say that US started ARN circa 2006 and it flew seasonally through summer 2009, then it did not return for S10. OSL flew summer '09 and summer '10, but then US announced its termination in dec. '10.

I think OSL actually did relatively well from PHL load and yield wise (moreso than ARN, as was rumored). There were even discussions about bringing it on year-round (perhaps going 4w during the winter). However, in late 2010, CO announced they were going from 10w to 14w on its highly successful EWROSL route, and soon after SK announced they were launching EWROSL, bringing the number of daily NYCOSL flights up to 3x for S11.

Ultimately, with all three carriers (US, CO/UA and SK) in the same alliance, it rendered the PHLOSL route moot, especially given the proximity from Philly to EWR. Therefore, US announced that OSL would not be returning during Summer 2011.

My guess is that the Scandanavian markets went underserved for years from the US, but Delta, Continental and US Airways added a lot of capacity in the late 2000's from their east coast gateways at JFK/ATL, EWR and PHL, respectively, resulting in overflooding and/or diluted yields.

Also, from a marketing perspective, it also probably did not help that the TATL experience on a US 757 pales in comparison to that of SK and CO.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinecgnnrw From Germany, joined May 2005, 1165 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3099 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 13):
With regards to DL's PHL-CDG being a former AF route, yes.

I've heard this before and it surprises me to hear it. I thought with CDG being the mega-hub the flight would be easy to market within Europe. Connections were decent and prices (from Germany) very competitive. I flew this route with AF at least 6-7 times and the flights were nearly always full in Y and appeared to do well in C as well. I really miss AFs A330s on this route. I enjoyed each and every flight.*

*the one drawback being the flights were almost always boarded at a remote stand. It gave me the impression ADP / AF treated the Philly pax as the "unloved" step-child.



A330 man.
User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1749 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (3 years 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2836 times:

Quoting Arn777 (Reply 14):
There has also been talk about taking capacity from ARN but that will not happen without a fight from Swedish biz customers. SAS representatives has also said the the OSL-EWR route are one of the top preforming one in SAS IC since it started in March this year.

I think it is wonderful SAS have made OSL-EWR work in spite of the competition, which wasn't there when they stopped flying the route last time.

I wonder if there is a way to have one flight (say on a Saturday) fly ARN-OSL-EWR in order to help with the aircraft availability.

Personally I think SAS should source an extra A333 as it could be a chance to try some more IC routes from OSL.



Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319-BA), OSL-LHR (319-BA), LHR-CPH (320-BA), VXO-BMA (S20-TF), ARN-CPH (738-SK), CPH-LHR (320-BA)
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