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Administrative Court Stops FRA Night Ops  
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9099 posts, RR: 29
Posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 9465 times:

The State of Hesse Administrative Court in Kassel has decicded to stop the 17 permitted night ops at FRA when the new landing runway become soperational on Oct 21st pending the "final" decision by the Supreme Administrative Court in Leipzig.

This is a real blow for Lufthansa Cargo who depend on a certain number of night ops to keep their business model of interchangeability between pax belly loads and main deck alive.

If this is upheld it will cost several thousands jobs in the cargo industry and I really cannot understand why the SPD party is cheering this ruling, aren't they supposed to be on the side of the weakest who will lose their jobs? Crazy politics.

It will be interesting to watch this developing....

..


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
112 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3902 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 9374 times:
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Is there any timeline for a decision from Leipzig?

Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
aren't they supposed to be on the side of the weakest who will lose their jobs?

The jobs sustained by 17 night time flights do not compare to the thousands of people in the suburbs complaining that would never forget the SPD for getting in the way.

If jobs was the only consideration, the SPD's brothers should be in favor of an extra runway and an end to the night time curfew at LHR for the hundreds, if not thousands, of extra jobs it will create, and they would have never allowed the elimination of most night-time flights at BRU, at the cost of thousands of DHL jobs uplifted to LEJ.

[Edited 2011-10-11 09:00:02]


I've got $h*t to do
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9099 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 9315 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 1):
Is there any timeline for a decision from Leipzig?

Spring 2012

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 1):
The jobs sustained by 17 night time flights do not compare to the thousands of people

it's a few hundred NIMBYs. Closing the main gateway of the worlds second largest export nation is a bitter joke. The amount of exports through FRA is € 600 million daily. This coincerns more than a couple of hundered cargo handlers or office jobs in freight forwarding firms., In the long run if will affect the indutry of the region and the country. Airports, especially large ones like FRA, have a national importance as essential infrastructure serving the industry and the people as well. this goes together, infrastructure and industry are not the enemy of people. The benefits are serving also those complaining.

I wonder how judges can think that the business which is in jeopardy now or lost to other gateways could come back in sping 2012 if Leipzig comes to a different ruling? Freight routings which will no longer be possible now for a number of reasons will go elsewhere.

This reminds of the old carricature of "Michel" with the night lamp and the "Zipfelmuetze" (pointed cap).



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User currently offlinefraapproach From Germany, joined Oct 2010, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 9221 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
Closing the main gateway of the worlds second largest export nation is a bitter joke. The amount of exports through FRA is € 600 million daily. This coincerns more than a couple of hundered cargo handlers or office jobs in freight forwarding firms., In the long run if will affect the indutry of the region and the country. Airports, especially large ones like FRA, have a national importance as essential infrastructure serving the industry and the people as well. this goes together, infrastructure and industry are not the enemy of people. The benefits are serving also those complaining.

You will never by able to make someone from SPD understand this!


User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1357 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 9167 times:

There are more people that live near the Autobahn than near the Airport.

They should shut down the Autobahn at night too to serve those people.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9099 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9034 times:

..and the railways as well. The amazing thing is that from major roads - be that Autobahn or Interstate there is a constant noise level which simply does not exist even at major airports. Every 50 or 60 seconds at best. However, that is totally neglected by the NIMBYS, I stayed at the master robert Hotel which is underneath the flight path to LHR several times over the years. The first landings come in before 5 am, it is really not anything disturbing. A motorbike after midnight on a local road yes, but no one complains about that.

Closing down a major airport, a billion € investment in infrastructure is plain dumb considering that major population centers have a certain noise level anyhow. Politicians praising the decision of the judges is unbelievable. Don't they realize that jobs are at stake? It will be interesting to watch the various statements coming up.

.



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User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12791 posts, RR: 100
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8941 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
It will be interesting to watch this developing....

I'm afraid it will be sad.  
Quoting ADent (Reply 4):
They should shut down the Autobahn at night too to serve those people.

  

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
Politicians praising the decision of the judges is unbelievable. Don't they realize that jobs are at stake? It will be interesting to watch the various statements coming up.

Only if there is a sharp layoff will the politicians wake up. I'm in California. Trust me, politicians can be clueless about driving out jobs for generations...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9466 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8943 times:

I'm confused. How does 17 night operations equal thousands of jobs? To me it means far fewer than that. What flights currently use the night time operation slots? Will there be a massive shift away from FRA because of this?


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinepelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8933 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
I wonder how judges can think that the business which is in jeopardy now or lost to other gateways could come back in sping 2012 if Leipzig comes to a different ruling? Freight routings which will no longer be possible now for a number of reasons will go elsewhere.

Well, judges should just consider laws. It's the lawmaker who should consider the implications of their laws and us voters who should consider the implication of our votes. Sometimes it helps to voice concerns aboout political decisions - the NIMBY fraction is very good at this, hence NIMBY-laws are gaining ground and this won't change as long as there are no massive protests from people whose jobs are at stake.

Quoting ADent (Reply 4):

They should shut down the Autobahn at night too to serve those people.

Well, there are speed limits during the night at many stretches of Autobahn for noise protection reasons.

pelican


User currently offlinefrat From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1102 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8841 times:

Well, the situation in FRA is a bit more complex. The then Prime Minister of the state of Hessia promised a complete ban of flights from 11PM to 5AM if the new runway gets approved. After they won the court decision, they started to say, that there will be up to 17 exceptions to the night ban, which was now temporarily stopped by the court.

I also don't like the decision and I agree with PANHAM that a lot of jobs might be lost because airlines might move there complete operation to another airport, both the night and the daytime operation.

So decision by the high court will be of highest importance, not only for FRA but also for the new airport in BER.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9099 posts, RR: 29
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8774 times:

Lufthansa Cargo loses a major asset of their business model, the connectivity between long distance pax and cargo ops. The opposition simply does not understand, they still mumble about shifting cargo to HHN wich is complete BS and does not work.

LH will now have to decide what to do with the close to 1600 night ops for the winter schedule, they won't get new slots in China, so the decision is canx altogether or move to LEJ, I am afraid a mix of both will happen.

Quoting frat (Reply 9):
The then Prime Minister of the state of Hessia promised a complete ban of flights from 11PM to 5AM if the new runway gets approved. After they won the court decision, they started to

I told him several times that he's wrong but he did not listen to me.   No, I really did but of course he had to balance his opinion because here in MTK there are some places against the airport and this is a delicate political matter, that explains that. This "promise" was political BS anyhow since in a democratc state nmo elected politician can "promise" such things. We live in a state ruled by the law and not by decret. Surprisingly, in such cases all of a sudden all the democratic elected opposition leaders become absolute rulers who talk drivel about night bans..

The Merkel government had a chance in the first year before the NRW state election to change the aviation law making it impossible to shut down majr airports during the night. That could have been done for FRA, CGN NUE HAJ have it anyhow and for LEJ , may be another one that would have coveered the essential needs of a modern export based economy. They chickened out, afraid of the voters and now they have the mess. Had they done it, the court would not have had a case.

Quoting pelican (Reply 8):
Well, judges should just consider laws.

They must, not should. But I think they also must observe the interest of others, companies like EXT who may eventiually have to shut down because of this, LHCargo, Condor etc have rights and their employees do as well. this was totally neglected in this decision.

Quoting pelican (Reply 8):
Well, there are speed limits during the night at many stretches of Autobahn for noise protection reasons.

and still it can be heard. I live 3 km from the A3, I sleep well, it does not disturb me, but the A3 can be heard even in that distance, 24 hors a day. What really pi...es me off is that motor bike at 00:30 when I just went to bed, revving up all the way down to the next village. These morons should be banned 8 pm to 8 am.

.



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User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24729 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8521 times:

This decision was long time in coming.

If LH feels night time cargo ops are so critical let it operate from Hahn, or move completely to another airport such as CGN.

Otherwise let LH use up some of its vast daytime slot holdings (which will only increase with the added runway) to operate its cargo flights during daylight hours instead.

The greater good here is not blindly supporting a single private enterprise to conduct business 24/7, but the health and comfort of the thousands of citizens that must endure the discomfort of airport activity.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4798 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8453 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
What really pi...es me off is that motor bike at 00:30 when I just went to bed, revving up all the way down to the next village. These morons should be banned 8 pm to 8 am.

   totally agree... and not just those hours... I just don't understand how cars/trucks/planes etc have to achieve certain maximum db levels and yet motorbikes can pass when they are far louder! You can have a triple glazed house and still hear a loud motorbike 1km away! They are often louder than emergency vehicles! I don't mind people having motorbikes and I understand that they feel the noise is part of the experience, but really they need to be muffled down to the same noise restrictions as cars (including when they are revved up). Back OT.... would a 12am-5am curfew help the situation rather than the 11pm-5am?
Another airline this curfew will effect is QF with its night flight to SIN.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineMarcoPoloWorld From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8347 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
The greater good here is not blindly supporting a single private enterprise to conduct business 24/7, but the health and comfort of the thousands of citizens that must endure the discomfort of airport activity.

Then let's shut down LAX after 23:00 first. And then impose a similar curfew on all the freeways that Los Angeles is so pathologically dependent upon. Actually, let's make it no driving at all allowed at night.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
it's a few hundred NIMBYs.

Exactly. And the sad reality is that nimbys are not only preventing aviation from functioning properly, they are shutting down growth in the places that would be the most sustainable here in the States, like urban cores and other dense areas with developed services and facilities. Residential and growth is being pushed to the hinterlands where public transportation is unavailable and jobs are geographically scattered, if at all available. Same thing with major airports that already have the surrounding and supporting infrastructure in place, they are not allowed to grow, even organically, and thus the growth - because growth is unstoppable - happens elsewhere.

In the case of Germany - and Europe as a whole - this contradiction will play out on a global scale. If European countries don't want to maintain a competitive environment for world aviation - such as international transfer hubs and cargo operations - we have already seen that the likes of Emirates will gladly step in where others are no longer capable or willing to provide the services or infrastructure environments necessary to support a very competitive, global industry. I think within the next few years, the term "footloose" will take on a whole new relevance in the realm of international travel.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24729 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8315 times:

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 13):
Then let's shut down LAX after 23:00 first.

Fine with me.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 13):
And then impose a similar curfew on all the freeways that Los Angeles is so pathologically dependent upon. Actually, let's make it no driving at all allowed at night.

Cars hardly make noise levels even close to what airplanes put out unless you live right adjacent to a freeway.


I live 10 miles from LAX, about 10 from BUR and about 5 from SMO and can unfortunately hear aircraft to/from all three especially late at night when ambient noise levels drop. It can be noticable during the day, and plain bothersome at night.

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 13):
In the case of Germany - and Europe as a whole - this contradiction will play out on a global scale. If European countries don't want to maintain a competitive environment for world aviation -

Its not like Germany and Europe are without 24 hour airports. Airlines are free to utilize those.

Enough is enough, and a very generous 11pm-5am curfew is more than reasonable.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9099 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 8266 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
If LH feels night time cargo ops are so critical let it operate from Hahn, or move completely to another airport such as CGN

Not feasible. I said that part oif the business model is connectivity between their pax and all cargo flights and that can only be achieved at FRA. LH pulled out of CGN altogether, opening new stations at either HHN or CGN would be costly and no customer would pay for the additional cost. The least damage is done by moving these lfights to LEJ but the product does not work there as well as at the main hub. Should be understandable oin this forum.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
The greater good here is not blindly supporting a single private enterprise to conduct business 24/7

This is a very sinmgle sided view., It is more than one company, there are freight forwarders, manufacturers, importers depending on the servie lH provides, there is another small cargo carrier, brokers and whoever is making a living out of this. There is the general public which is noit aware of it but partly depending on the tax base generated which will now be less. The greater good has been damaged by this court decision already.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Cars hardly make noise levels even close to what airplanes put out unless you live right adjacent to a freeway

No other means of transportation besides cars produces a constant noise level over 24 hours.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8204 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
Not feasible. I said that part oif the business model is connectivity between their pax and all cargo flights and that can only be achieved at FRA. LH pulled out of CGN altogether, opening new stations at either HHN or CGN would be costly and no customer would pay for the additional cost. The least damage is done by moving these lfights to LEJ but the product does not work there as well as at the main hub. Should be understandable oin this forum.

What about moving the cargo department to Munich? I know that the airport is also closed at night but from what I can remember there aren't so many neighbourhoods around the airport.
Maybe the Bavarians would actually allow them to have several flights during the night. Lufthansa's Munich network is not as extensive as that of Frankfurt but it's still not bad.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9099 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8179 times:

They have a "cargo department" not only in MUC but all other airports they fly to in Germany, like HAM DUS STR etc. Each plane carries cargo and what is not flown is trucked.

FRA is he main hub with the most flights and only here the connectivity between cargo flown on pax aircraft and freighters can be achieved. The 3 destinationas ainly affected by this dumb court ruling are in the US and NBO/JNB. To achieve a same day delivery after customs clearance in the USA flights must bepart FRA around 4 am . The additional hour means already that a) the slot is not available and b) customs might not clear that morning.

This is a severe blow not only for the airlines but for the exporting industry as well.



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User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8063 times:

Is it a daily flight to NBO/JNB and how many flights depart to the US at 04:00? If it is just a couple of them then it doesn't make sense to stop them. I am sure that a few flights are not going to wake up the entire neighbourhood.

Plus, if someone buys a house in close proximity to the airport then it's his own fault.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9099 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8014 times:

The new runway agreement was that the number of night ops are scaled down from around 50 to 17, that was a compromise already. These 17 ops include take offs and landings, hence, depending which directions the ops are only 8 to 9 affect people underneath the direct flight path.

Whoever wakes up in the night because of flights and if not by regular traffic noise, wakes up because of the grass growing as well.

A few hundred people cause a desaster for businesses depending on these night ops and that is not only the airlines and forwarders, it means also manufacturers who depend on next day delivery.

But it is a desaster also for leisure carriers like Condor which needs early departures and late arrivals to make efficient use of their equipment. Condor might have no other choice but leaving FRA, eventually Germany altogether and base their aircraft where 24 hour ops is available, as well as the traffic potential.

[Edited 2011-10-12 00:17:03]


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User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3473 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7989 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):

But it is a desaster also for leisure carriers like Condor which needs early departures and late arrivals to make efficient use of their equipment.

Sorry but thats rediculous. First of all, they are still free to use CGN (as long as the red-green government remains reasonable). Also, their customers live here.

Secondly, regarding LH Cargo the ban is only 6 hours. More than enough time to land in HHN and truck the cargo to FRA.

I do not like NIMBYs either, but telling the world that LH Cargos business model will collapse from 17 flights is also a gross over estimation.


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9099 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7923 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 20):
Secondly, regarding LH Cargo the ban is only 6 hours. More than enough time to land in HHN and truck the cargo to FRA.

sorry but this is ridiculous. Do you know how long it takes to process a pallet through the warehouse, facilitae customs formalities, cancel the customs formalities at the destination airport again after trucking and load again? Obviously you haven't got a clue about this. Besides, who is going to pay for that? The customer certainly not. Rates are dictated by the market and not by hurdles set up by courts or governments. LH does not have a station at HHN, to set that up plus 30 to 50.000 truck loads per annum would cost roughly 100 million € which could not be loaded to customers.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 20):
Sorry but thats rediculous. First of all, they are still free to use CGN

so you are telling FRA and region residents to travel to CGN to catch their leisure flight? I tell you how it will happen, running a leisure carrier in Germany will no longer be possible, jobs will go to Turkey (happens already) or Spain.

Anyway, the federal government has to end this farce by amending the applicalble law and make necessary night operations possible.

Germany is not an absolute state. Companies and people who work in these companies have roights too and the answer is always a compromise. reudcing from 50 to 17 was already a compromise and no one advocates unnecesary flights making it mandatory to operate only the state of the art equipment like 777F would be no problem either. LH hjas enough to use MD11s for day flights only.

I hope that this ruling will be reversed in LEJ, if not by a new law in the Bundestag. The damage has been done however. Freight that will take another route will hardly come back. As an old freight dog you can take my word for that.



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User currently offlinefn1001 From Moldova, joined Sep 2008, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7629 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Condor might have no other choice but leaving FRA, eventually Germany

Allthough I also do not agree with the NIMBYs, I really doubt about this argumnent. The people from the region around FRA will continue to fly to their holiday destination, with Condor or someone else.



Mai bine să-ţi fie rău decît să-ţi pară rău.
User currently offlineTheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3473 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7560 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):

Germany is not an absolute state. Companies and people who work in these companies have roights too and the answer is always a compromise. reudcing from 50 to 17 was already a compromise and no one advocates unnecesary flights making it mandatory to operate only the state of the art equipment like 777F would be no problem either.

Maybe, but LH gets so many more slots during the day that they really get the opportunity for further growth - just not during the night. Ask BA if they would accept that curfew if they were to be granted another runway for LHR...


User currently offlinewdleiser From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 961 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6963 times:

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 23):

You are talking about pax operations vs cargo ops.

For those of you saying night ops shouldn't be allowed, should we ban FedEx from operating at night at MEM?


25 charliecossie : Heathrow already has a curfew. BA manage to be one of Europes largest cargo airlines without a single cargo plane at Heathrow. Heathrow is 50% bigger
26 PanHAM : yes, nice, but we are talking about cargo and day slots are of little use when the freight is still inproduction. wouldn't be much left of MEM, but I
27 kl911 : Why dont LH move everything to HHN, pax and cargo? Its not that far away from business centers, and especially with the dense highspeed railsystem in
28 PanHAM : LOL, HHN is a single runway airport with a shack called terminal and farther away from it's namesake city than any other in the world, if, it would m
29 Post contains images lightsaber : The issue is that the curfew opens up other airports and thus other airlines to competition. While LH could move the tonnage, it won't be as timely a
30 Post contains images r2rho : which of course do not create noise, do not emit CO2, and do not require building of new roadways through forests... It seems that every other month,
31 PanHAM : @ Lightsaber - MEM is different as it is the cradle of the integrator system which Fred S. invented. Works only with night ops and FX moved to CGN alr
32 keuleatr72 : The curfew won´t be the end for Lufthansa Cargo. But I am a little bit surprised to see that neither Lufthansa, nor the airport, nor the State of Hee
33 Post contains images wilco737 : There is a plan B and there are already things done against that night curfew. So last word not spoken here. Because nobody expected it like that. Th
34 ORDPARK : It is comforting to know that there are out of touch politicians in Germany as well as the U.S.....
35 Post contains images lightsaber : @PanHAM; Well written. Overall I agree. I suspect LH's operations would work far better with both FX and DHL at FRA. Noisey? Sure. But as you note: Wh
36 keuleatr72 : Geez, 50 nighttime slots? With 50 nighttime slots we would see those civil-war-like pictures, we already saw back in the 80´s when the "Startbahn We
37 frat : The question is: How many people are against those night flights when on the other hands, jobs would be lost at FRA. Not sure, how old you are. But I
38 blueflyer : BA doesn't fly half of LH's volume, and they have to run a split operation with freight at STN (through GSS) because the LHR slots are far too valuab
39 lightsaber : True. But that would be far more reasonable to have more slots. Zero is silly. If BA had those flights, combined with a few more PAX nightime flights
40 Post contains images wilco737 : LH has a Plan how to react to that already and the legal department of LH isn't bad, so something will happen. Yes, they have to shrink as many rotat
41 PanHAM : It is a minority. All polls come to the same conclusion. The acceptance of the airport as a source of employement is high and night operations are se
42 r2rho : Indeed that is the key issue that most ignore, LH Cargo is not FX and cannot simply relocate to another place, because LH airline and LH Cargo are in
43 PanHAM : They shoul do that. There was absolutely no reason, except bias, for the Hesse court in Kassel to act at this time. They had the cases pending the Le
44 robffm2 : In some newspaper I saw a report that the judges commented also on the comparison between BER and FRA. They said that BER has not the importance of F
45 PanHAM : Yes, BER can live with the 2400 to 0500 curfew, they don't need freighters there, whatever is produced by express/integrators can go by sprinter vans
46 QF340500 : I agree with robffm2's post, we can just hope that the people in Leipzig don't are so shortsighted (Brett vor dem Kopf) like the once in Kassel. No wo
47 keuleatr72 : I am 32 and I remember the military flights very well. (I even skipped school once and made a 250km ride by train just to watch them from the old vie
48 Burkhard : Any link to the exact details of this? With two completele independant start pathes, I always expected things like closing 7C departures from 21:30 to
49 frat : Again, I am living approx 12 km south of FRA directly under the runway 18 flightpath. I never woke up beacause of the QF or any other carrier departu
50 PanHAM : LH CEO Franz pleads to postpone the inaugural of the new runway until the Administrative Supreme Court in Leipzig has decided on the pending issue. Ma
51 TheSonntag : Sorry, but thats utterly redicolous. The court did what it is asked to do. Were not a banana republic after all. I do not like NIMBYs either, but it
52 PanHAM : sorry but the court had passed this on to the next higher court for decision. There was absolutely no requirement to issue this ruling out of the blu
53 tharanga : This entire discussion has been missing what would seem to be the most important information. What exactly is the matter of law that the court used to
54 Post contains images lightsaber : It will be interesting to see how this goes. That is a serious mistake. I too am curious. Politicians contradict themselves all the time, so if it wa
55 PanHAM : No, simply a populistic promise that there will be a night curfew. the politicians could not hold this up since that would have -and does - infringe
56 tharanga : There has to be more to it than that; courts aren't in the habit of enforcing campaign pledges like that. Can somebody familiar with the german legal
57 PanHAM : The promise is not legally enforcable. People however can appeal against zonings laws. That is waht adminstrative courts are there for. Several commun
58 Burkhard : Do I understand correctly that the OLG has a) not decided the case and sent to to Leipzig, but b) considered the damage done by 17 night flights bigge
59 PanHAM : It is not the OLG but the VGH (Verwaltungs Gerichjtshof) in kassel whoich has passed the case to the Federal court in Leipzig. That normally means tha
60 robffm2 : Please show that the decision was not based on the neutral evaluation of facts and laws. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's biased. Als
61 Burkhard : I share your view completely and cannot understand the extreme propaganda performed by by oeko - bolschewists in our area (unless they see a way to ga
62 PanHAM : Read my text. There was no need to pronounce this ruling at this time. It is a dormant case fo them, pending decision in Leipzig. I have been careful
63 airbazar : Dude 17 night ops? Really, banning that is enough to shut down all of LH Cargo ops and bring the entire Germany economy to a screeching halt? That's w
64 robffm2 : These are separate cases. They might be connected, but still there is a need for a court and judges to come to a decision. Otherwise they would viola
65 Burkhard : LH sends me about 2 emails a week, just today again Simply more Europe: 1 million extra seats from EUR 99*. They never used this medium to reach milli
66 Post contains images robffm2 : Not only it seems they did not follow the proceedings at the court, but also they missed to prepare for the worst case. And finally the evolving of q
67 PanHAM : I said that the ruling came out of the blue yonder, it was totally unexpected. The court could have ruled 2 years ago, they did not waiting for Leipz
68 Post contains links robffm2 : They could not, as said before there are separate cases. Please read here on FTD: "Der Ausbau des Frankfurter Flughafens und die Folgen für die Anwo
69 PanHAM : Check FAZ online, Rhein-Main business section, the comment in the right hand upper corner "Zur Unzeit entschieden"(untimley decision) The journalist s
70 Post contains images lightsaber : That is already an extreme cut. I didn't realize it was going down from 50. There is no right LH has to move the cargo either. Seriously, going from
71 Post contains links and images robffm2 : Unfortunately I don't find the article you mentioned. As of now I see a comment called "Auf dem falschen Fuß" (to catch sb. off guard). And there, a
72 LAXintl : The only biased thing is your own comments here its seems. Clearly you are invested somehow in FRA and cargo and cannot see the trees in the forest.
73 Post contains images PanHAM : as said before, companies, their employees and customers do have rights as well. An industrialized nation must make provisions that their corporate c
74 PanHAM : I do , see below
75 Post contains images LAXintl : Not commercial suicide at all. The German exports will move. Either a few hours later, or via other means. I doubt anyone in the world knows or even c
76 TheSonntag : Especially since airports like CGN and HHN are only 3 hours (at most) away by truck. Don't get me wrong. I am against the curfew, too. Politically, I
77 Jacobin777 : Politicians quite often don't make right moves and decisions, nor do they comprehend nor understand the subtleties of situations either. This has bee
78 LAXintl : But at least the politicians will hear from people. If people don't want airport activity, they are more likely agree with them. Refusing to do anythi
79 cmf : Looking past the reason of bias you have been touting How do the judges justify the timing and why they did not wait for the other courts decision? (
80 Jacobin777 : Kowtowing is nothing new by career politicians (something which our forefathers such as Jefferson clearly weren't a fan of). Many will want to have t
81 PanHAM : I explained that it takes more than the 2 or 3 hours a truck takes to CGN. The freight has to move through the airport on boith sides, inclduing cust
82 Post contains images LAXintl : and a brief night-time curfew is a good balance. Not carte-blance for business, and some respect for the community. Sure you dont have to be fair. Yo
83 cmf : I am not familiar with the internal operations of a cargo airline but I am very experienced in supply chain management and expediting is SOP both for
84 PanHAM : It does not work in reality, heaven's sake, is that so difficult to see? Can't you realize that people exist who know how things work in daily life?
85 aviationmaster : There shouldn't be a carte-blanche either for people who move to the vincinity of an airport and then resort to complain about the noise. Especially
86 TheSonntag : Rather 1 million NIMBYs.
87 cmf : I'm sorry to say but this is a good example of your bias as the slot restriction is between 22:00 and 06:00 so as it stands today any slots taken awa
88 lewis : There is one thing I don't understand with those situations. FRA, as well as other airports, became major hubs starting in the 60s or even 50s. These
89 keuleatr72 : Actually, those NIMBYs agreed to the fourth runway and the capacity increase of nearly 50%! But if that isn´t enough.... Edit for spelling...[Edited
90 PanHAM : trust me, I am, I've got over 40 years in that biz on my back. Not only air but also ocean, trucking, projects, supply chain management. That is alwa
91 cmf : I think that is poor logic. By that logic we should give anyone living in a house that has belonged to the same family since before the airport the r
92 MD11Engineer : First, there is land around the current HHN airport reserved for a future exopansion, including a second runway, if necessary (e.g. the village of Ha
93 cmf : After the beginning of the operations on the new runway and once the coordination bench mark has been increased, no aircraft may take-off or land dur
94 LAXintl : The only foolish ones would be the companies that have no plan, or ability to adjust. If anyone banked their entire lives on the free existence of ni
95 lightsaber : Depends on how much the economy needs the highest yielding freight. A few hours later reduces the yield of freight. The question is, will AF be wise
96 cmf : But it all depends on from where you ship and to where. td.flash covers 300 destinations in 100 countries and I fail to see how they all depend on th
97 tharanga : I'll allow that the German legal system is fundamentally different from what I'm used to, but maybe this can be said: Simply noting that "companies h
98 PanHAM : Jan, I know the situation of HHN. The biggest waste of money they are doing right now is extending / upgrading the railway line. A second runway is p
99 Burkhard : German industry very much depends on quality, and this includes the ability of warranted response times. I can imagine that a company in Augsburg or w
100 Post contains links cmf : Let's put some facts behind this. Taken from Lufthansa Cargo's schedule there are 37 different destinations receiving flights departing FRA between 2
101 PanHAM : I always welcome suggestions from people who explain from their remote armchair to those who directly deal with thre matter how to make things better
102 cmf : Maybe you're too close to see the options that works most other days of the week. And you have no idea what my experience in making goods arrive from
103 PanHAM : Nice joke, i've done routings when IT was unheard of in ops and I knew the options n the OAG (then ABC) by heart. Maybe today people rely too much on
104 cmf : Joke??? Well done. But I do agree that in many situations people get too blindsided to look outside what the computers suggest. Now that of course is
105 Post contains images wilco737 : Lufthansa Cargo has updated their winter schedule. Some flights are leaving from CGN again. Like back in the old days when they did that until 2007. I
106 PanHAM : These flights will be fully loaded here at FRA, then ferried to CGN, wait until it's time to depart in order to meet the slot ast destination. I assum
107 lightsaber : Part of the issue is those 23:00 to 05:00 bucket take cargo brought in during the day and ensures they make it to the destination by X hours. Freight
108 PanHAM : AF is in limbo, but KLM / MP will get some honey out of this, for them Germany is a home market since decades and they will benefit. I have some news
109 lightsaber : Depending on the impact of this change, it could alter the value of placing spares ceters in such a high cost location. As the greater Los Angeles ar
110 PanHAM : They have an insurance in the form that CGN is down the road. the new Moencbruch location is right on the A3, in my better days I did 80 minutes from
111 cmf : Of course. The difference now is that they need to arrive FRA by 20:00 instead of somewhere between 20:00 and 23:00 if coming by connecting flight an
112 PanHAM : The "grand opening" will take place later today and the hangover will come next Sunday with the start of the winter schedules. LHCargo CEO Garnadt sai
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