News article implies this is now a done-deal, according to a Delta SEC filing submitted today.
"The accord gives Delta 132 more LaGuardia slot pairs and control of about half the flights there, in exchange for swapping 42 of its pairs at Washington’s Ronald Reagan National Airport with US Airways, the U.S. Department of Transportation said today in a filing. The carriers must divest 24 pairs to smaller rivals, 16 at LaGuardia and eight at National."
NYCAdvantage From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 386 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13888 times:
Not really surprising, I guess up to now this has been a great week for Delta, Yesterday I read they won best US business class by Business Travel News and today they get the final approval for LGA by the DOT, Congratulation to Delta.
FWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 4282 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13581 times:
I'm surprised that WN wasn't victorious again. But I'm also glad that smaller airports aren't getting the shaft like they would have if WN gobbled up a bunch of prime LGA and DCA slots.
Quoting gdg9 (Reply 2): So Delta will make up half of LGA traffic? Wow. Not sure how that promotes competition?
Most of the nonstop LGA routes from DL and US don't overlap. Some routes that did have overlap when the swap was first proposed, like LGA-IND, are down to one carrier between DL or US now. And the same goes for US and DL at DCA.
Both DL and US also plan on adding new nonstops from cities with no LGA or DCA service, respectively. In DL's case, much of this will come from upgauged equipment. LGA routes that were flown by US on DH8s and SF3s will now be flown on CR2s and the like, while current CR2/ER4 routes will go to CR7/9s, E-Jets, M88/90s, and A32x depending on the route. Expect a similar situation at DCA with US, but without the turboprop upgrades (DL doesn't fly turboprops into DCA).
Closer to home, I'll also be interested to see how this plays out for FWA and SBN. DCA is a top O&D city from FWA with no nonstop service, and the same goes for SBN and LGA. Could we see DL launch SBN-LGA, or (more intriguingly) the return of US to FWA with DCA and possibly PHL or CLT service? FWA's ASD worked in route planning at US back in the Crystal Palace days. That said, I don't know if FWA-DCA is a high priority route for FWA, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is.
On a side note: As the weakest player of the largest LGA carriers, US has been losing tens of millions of dollars a year at LGA. In fact, it was rumored that Doug Parker called Richard Anderson first when trying to get divest US's LGA slots. Handing the routes over to DL will allow for a stronger competitor to tackle UA (CO) and AA in the NYC market, and will also improve US's cash flow and balance sheet. 98+% of US flights will now originate or terminate at one of their four strongholds with high brand loyalty to US: CLT, DCA, PHL, and PHX.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
Delta/USAir slot swap plan hits US antitrust snag!
"Oct 11 (Reuters) - A proposal by US Airways and Delta Air Lines to swap a large number of slots at New York and Washington airports hit a snag on Tuesday with U.S. antitrust officials raising questions about the deal's impact on competition.
The Justice Department said in a statement that it found no problems with the carriers' plans for certain slots -- or takeoff and landing rights -- at New York's LaGuardia airport where Delta has a strong presence.
But the government raised concerns about the proposal's impact on consumers at Washington's Reagan National airport where US Airways currently dominates and travelers pay some of the highest fares.
"Under the antitrust laws, the division can and will take appropriate action, if warranted, at the conclusion of its investigation," the agency said in a statement."
ERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6885 posts, RR: 16
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13525 times:
So, I wonder if RDU will see additional upguage on LGA or if it will maintain at CR7/E70.. right now DL offers 6 70+ seat trips, US offers 6 50 seat trips, and AA offers 8 35-50 seat trips.. Wonder if DL will mix in some 73G or 329 into the mix or increase the number of flights they offer or remain status quo..
Secondaly, and I REALLY wish this would happen but I doubt it, would DL offer 1 daily EWN (New Bern)? I mean, they only offer 2 ATL flights and there is NO nonstop to NYC from EWN (course they could use a 1 daily WAS too)...
MPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1057 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 13500 times:
Quoting gdg9 (Reply 2): Not sure how that promotes competition?
I am not sure that the DOT was designed to promote competition. I believe they were simply looking to prevent a monopoly which 50% is not.
Great news for Delta! My question is how much of this will be mainline and how much will be on RJs. With all this talk of restraint in growing capacity, I could see a lot of RJs making their way to LGA. I could also see a lot of back filling US Airways departure requiring a lot of mainline flying so I am curious what the mix up will be. When will we start hearing about Delta annoucing the routes and capacity that is added?
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
seabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7321 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13142 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 10): Neither will be a fortress hub or anything too bad for the flying public either
The combination of a US monopoly in a very high number of markets and slot limitations already create problems for DCA flyers, and I think this will only make it worse. Certainly nothing like the public faces at, say, DTW or CVG, but it's enough of a problem to keep an eye on.
Fortunately, we do have some relatively nearby competition. My last several flights have all been out of BWI, because lately there has been a dramatic (often 40%+) difference in fares. That's easily enough to pay for parking and make the 45-minute drive (as opposed to 15-minute door-to-door Metro ride, for me) worth it.
FSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1211 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 12790 times:
Quoting gdg9 (Reply 2): So Delta will make up half of LGA traffic? Wow. Not sure how that promotes competition?
It promotes competition because DL will start routes like LGA-DFW and LGA-MIA that are currently monopolies, and they will also add competition to routes like LGA-YYZ and LGA-CLT where there are currently just two airlines. Also, as FWAERJ pointed out above, there is very little overlap between US and DL from LGA, so DL taking over routes from US won't create many new monopoly markets (and the ones it does create are routes like LGA-GSP that are very small anyway).
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 9): After this, what routes will US continue to operate from LGA? Obviously CLT, PHL and DCA. I presume BOS will stay. What else?
I think it will just be CLT, DCA, PIT, PHL, and BOS.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13): DOJ has also thrown a wrench into the approval process, today, so looks like it's anything but final.
Sadly. I'm very ready to see US's LGA slots put to better use.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
DeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 9027 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 12461 times:
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 22):
5 years ago I thought it would be sacrilege for AA to end BOS-LGA service, but that is happening in a few weeks.
Why? They only started it around 10 years ago - they were hardly an entrenched carrier on BOS-LGA - Delta and US Airways each had flights every hour on mainline planes, versus only 10 flights a day on 37 and 44 seaters. Throw in the fact that the Acela is a huge part of this market, and it's an easy route to cut.
I think this will mean the eventual drastic reduction of AA in LGA (except ORD/DFW routes) and open the doors for a WN/B6 dogfight for the scraps.
On the contrary, if the deal goes through it will just make a US/AA tie up easier in the future.
When will things be put in motion? Nobody knows yet, but one of the first signs will be AA divesting/swapping/selling more DCA slots to B6 in return for additional JFK slots. B6 at BOS,JFK,DCA will then compliment AA operations nicely in the NE.
: And I am the crazy one because I think AA will have big reductions at LGA in the future!
: Why? BOSLGA is a route AA has not been on for a very long time. It only launched the route at the start of the decade. Furthermore, the only reason A
: Would AA trade LGA slots for JFK slots if the opportunity came up?
: I do not believe so. Contrary to popular belief, JFK slots are not rare. They are plentiful outside of peak periods. AA has plenty of peak period slo
: So the big questions becomes, will they? It seems to me that it rarely comes to that. Usually deals are settled or dropped first. Its hard to believe
: If this gets approved, AA is the biggest loser on this deal. It's a shame that AA has been in such crap shape the last 5 years that they couldn't pro
: I can't imagine a cogent argument showing competition in NYC would be hurt when there are at least 4 carriers fighting to dominate the same catchment
: They said the have no issues with LGA, their concerns are strictly about DCA.
: I could be wrong, but I'd think AA's LGA flights rely on their strength in the destination city..RDU and BNA for example. AA's following should be en
: For Thursday's schedule, there are 422 scheduled departures out of DCA. US Airways has 191 of them (45.2%). With 42 additional flights, they have 233
: It will allow US to solidify more into their four key hubs - yes, with 233 flights I'm going to lump DCA as a hub - and in a less diluted market. DCA
: WIth DL adding so many flights and US shrinking their program at LGA, will the DL terminal be big enough? Or shouldn't they simply also swap their res
: Oh, give it a rest. If the DOJ is objecting to the swap of the DCA gates, what does do that to the agreement? They've already said that they have no
: Destroy is quite the exaggeration. Affect, certainly, but DL has already launched LGABNA and AA hasn't been hurt.
: There is a terminal realignment plan in place. An airside connector between the Delta Terminal and the US Airways Terminal. Delta will pick up the ma
: But if the DOJ successfully stops US from acquiring the Reagan slots, the deal is dead. I doubt US is going to do the swap by just selling Delta LaGu
: It's been brought up in other threads. DL will continue to operate out of the Detla Flight Center along with taking over most of the US gates, as wel
: I also think DL and US would argue that the DC market, like NYC, can't be considered the same way a fortress hub at, say, DTW would be, as there are
: As long as this whole process took, I'm surprised the DOJ didn't have any objections during the final negotiations with the DOT (or maybe I'm not). I
: I doubt. There's a lot of markets DL can for sure obtain better yields. MIA is probably among them, but i see rather O&D than anything else. LGA-
: What's DL going to do, launch 10 daily LGABNA to spite AA? That's just stupid.
: I hope this deal gets done as it will be a win win for everyone. The customers win because they have more nonstop options out of DCA and LGA, and some
: US Airways flies DCADFW while Delta flies MIADCA.
: ILM was going to keep service in the original slot swap, that is no longer the plan. Post-swap LGA will only have US service to CLT PHL PIT DCA and B
: Anyone knows how many gates US will have at DCA? and DL at LGA? thanks
: US in DCA is up the air because I have a feeling the UA/CO consolidation is going to factor into that as well. One scenario would be for DL to give u
: So is there reason to celebrate? Is this a done deal, or will US/DL wait until the DOJ rules on the DCA slot swap before taking further steps? It's st
: Basically everything will be dropped except flights to the hubs...plus DL has two AIR-21 slots (for JAN/LEX) which are not transferable.
: "Even with 55% at DCA, I don't see why that should be an issue. Fortress hubs have a much higher percentage by one carrier, yet they are allowed to fu
: I'm just wildly guessing the DOJ wrench is a tug of war behind the scenes about something negotiable. In the end it may just be settled. I just have a
: There is some amount of ill feeling toward US in DC, because of the pricing power it has and the fact that flying from DCA is often expensive as a re
: AA flew mainline in 2007 from LGA to MCO, TPA, FLL, RDU, BOS (i think), YYZ, and ATL. There were others I'm sure but were dropped in 2008 during the
: I might be in the small minority, but when having to travel through NY, I always avoided AA from RDU becuase almost every single time the offers I go
58 D L X
: Microsoft says hi. Besides, they haven't even filed a complaint yet. (And it might actually not be any of DOJ's business once DOT gives approval.) I
: LCC's don't have enough slots to really drive fares down at DCA, however they have lowered fares significantly on a few routes where they operate.
60 D L X
: No, LCCs choose not to drive fares down from DCA. LCCs choose to exploit the fact that it has high fares, in order to subsidize the rest of the netwo
: Well, you have to consider that the process would move through more informal channels at first; the DOJ would propose a remedy, US/DL would make a co
: Have US or DL given a list of definite cities they plan to expand to? I.e. Have either said they will definitely fly LGA/DCA-MIA with the new slots?
: About the DOJ looking into this. I am going to connect some dots and you make your own call. President is from Chicago President's good buddy Rahm is
: Though highly speculative, but we can't be naive either...so not a bad theory. I find it interesting enough that DOJ would state as such that "LGA is
: So these folks just sat by and watch US get to this position now after the horse has left the barn they complain? The LCC is allowed entry with limit
: That's because B6 can't effectively compete on this route since they have to route traffic through BOS. US can more directly route people through PHX
67 D L X
: That is not a very good excuse. A route network is not just non-stop flights. DCA access is just access. Ignoring onward travel is not comparing appl
: Have to agree, as another resident and frequent traveler. My experience is that the only solution to high DCA and IAD fares is not to book an LCC fro
: They wouldn't say much. Both UA and US are Star Alliance members.
70 D L X
: Very true. This should be a note to the DOJ to stop considering DCA an atomic market that is independent from BWI and IAD. The people with access to
: How much did US charge for DCA-BOS-DCA before B6 entered the market? What kind of impact has there been on short-notice fares when comparing before B
: Anecdotal evidence is just that....anecdotal. Your experience does NOT represent the millions of people who fly out of DCA. Using DOT data: B6 has th
: Think AA is suffering from ORD syndrome at LGA? I.e. need 90-100 seater jets in order to make markets like these work from LGA without bleeding cash?
: "Think AA is suffering from ORD syndrome at LGA? I.e. need 90-100 seater jets in order to make markets like these work from LGA without bleeding cash?
: Oh good lord. Maybe you should connect the dot that UA didn't even file an objection to the deal to your theory and see where that gets you.
: Here's an article about the deal making US Airways a better merger partner: http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/stor...cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm
: True enough. The most optimistic scenario is that US is just not getting any value out of their LGA slots while the worst scenario is that they are l
: 55% is nowhere near a monopoly. Simple as that. The other 45%, one would think, could aggressively set fare levels to compete with US, but strangely
: Not to mention that both UA and US are Star Alliance members. It's not businesslike to blast a fellow alliance member for their business decisions. I
: I think the last thing US would want is for WN to have a bunch of slots at DCA.....
: It's called collusion and price-fixing. The legacy carriers engage in it all the time. B6 can't offer a competitive price when they have to fly 800+
: Negative. The legacies pretty much supported DL/US from the beginning when they filed the lawsuit. They agreed with the idea and premise that DL/UA o
: What is your source of B6 showing being unhappy with the 90-100 sear Jet. I have not seen any negatice remarks from B6 regardin The Embraer product.
: They have stated publicly that they will be capping the E190 fleet at 75 airframes, as opposed to original plans. They have sold several future deliv
: If it's only 8 slots, maybe they could live with it. We'll have to see what DoJ has in mind for a remedy. Does DoJ want more slots divested, or do th
: In reality, the network carriers simply do not compete aggressively with each other. One would expect markets like CVG-ORD or CLT-ORD to be highly co
87 D L X
: Don't you think you lose some credibility when you make that argument? Do you REALLY see it as a reasonable comparison between driving Washington->
: Those are tired arguments. US isn't even the same airline it was then, and honestly I didn't expect a response that childish from you.
: Not at all, because there are undoubtedly some people who have made drives like that. LIT and BNA are used as substitutes for MEM by some. Don't you
: No, it points to a shortage of seats from DCA. The BWI fares are more typical of fares around the country. For a weekend trip, I will pay about $60-$
91 D L X
: Wow. Do you have a source for that? That's quite a charge. I don't know, but when I was in college, I regularly flew the US Shuttle DCA-BOS and back
: I currently reside in the Maryland area.. and I can honestly say that even I don't consider WAS-RDU compared to DCA-BWI-IAD.. I don't know of a singl
: Where I have the problem is back in 2000 with the US/UA merger, the DOJ's main concern was that US/UA would be too big in BWI/DCA/IAD. Amazing how th
: Hilarious and so out of touch with reality. Last minute fare on US on DCA-MHT...$1250. Last minute fare on US on DCA-BOS...$426. Hmm...why is a last
95 D L X
: Did you read my explanation, or did you stop at the first sentence? No, you found supposed data. Find an actual person. Believe it or not, but actual
: ...and two years ago, US's average BOS-DCA fare was over $250 each way -- over triple what you claim to have paid while in college. Actually, yes. Th
: It's not supposed data, it's actual data from tickets that real people purchased. The DoT collects data from tickets that have been purchased by cons
: I live in downtown DC and I can safely say that it has never taken me two hours to get to Baltimore, let alone BWI. And I used to date a girl who liv
: A lot of people in many different industries had to take pay cuts to make it through the recession and the post-2001 bust. Not just the airlines. For
: Regionals used to have their own brand, marketing, route structure and yes they flew a few flights on codeshare agreements with legacy carriers. But
101 D L X
: I really do not understand your argument. I've told you the issue with the data, but you simply ignore it. Let me try a different angle. Since you sa
: Of course, early in the morning you are leaving the city and reverse commuting, so your traffic is bound to be lighter. I have. I've flown Airtran ou
: If that's your understanding of statistics, you need to re-take your statistics class. The average fare will be the sum of all fares paid divided by
: Ok.....back on topic..........just out of curiosity.......shouldn't the DOJ have voiced any objections or made any investigations BEFORE the DOT gave
: Not discrediting anyone but where's the source for this objection? I saw when a poster mentioned it and maybe I missed a link but all I've seen in ne
: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/del...obe-stays-2011-10-11?siteid=yhoof2 From the article: The Wall Street Journal reported in its online edition Tue
: The regionals back then were different airlines than the ones we call "regionals", now. North Central was a regional, as well as Southern, probably.
: Perhaps it's the case here that frequency is more important than aircraft size. It's a short route...and it's generally more acceptable to use RJs on
: I hate conspiracy theories, but does anyone else think that it was any other airport besides DCA the DOJ wouldn't care about it? It is the airport of
: In the NYc area UAL and DAL will have complete dominance, once this swap is complete. DL will most likely become so powerful at LGA, that almost-bankr
: Yes, for example UA gave up every single one of their EWR slots to WN in order to win approval for their merger with CO. If anymore slots have to be
: DOJ has final say, and it's irrelevant that DOJ voiced this objection late in the game.
: OK, then........shouldn't DOT have made sure the anti-trust concerns were okay with the DOJ before telling the airlines that everything was good to g
: Actually, the court has final say. Pre-trial, The DoJ has no say whatsoever, other than whatever weight the DoT places on their response to request fo
: Correct, that's what I meant, and pending DOJ's final findings, there is little doubt DOJ will sue.
: There is still some doubt. Justice regularly announces that they are concerned with X, Y or Z, however they file very few lawsuits.