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What Does Etops Mean?  
User currently offlinetoby25 From Hong Kong, joined May 2008, 78 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5791 times:

Hello all,

I was wondering if someone smart out there can explain to me what ETOPS mean? I am not technically minded so would appreciate a dummy’s guide on this – a very dummy guide . I checked out Wikipedia and to be honest I am even more confused than enlightened! I think it has something to do with diversions and the distance to other airfields(?) Does the weight of the aircraft or weather affect ETOPS?

Any clarification would be much appreciated.

Thank you very much
Tobias.


Seriously dude! I swear!
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineairtran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3704 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5774 times:
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ETOPS means Extened Twin Operations. It is for aircraft with two engines that are approved for routes that don't have a suitable alternate airport within certain time distances.


Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
User currently offlinerosterdriven From Christmas Island, joined Apr 2008, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5769 times:

FAA Definition: "Extended Range Operation with Two-engine Airplanes (ETOPS)" and also referred to as “Extended-range Twin-engine Operations (ETOPS)”
Technical-AC120-42A: "For the purpose of this AC, extended range operations are those flights conducted over a route that contain a point further than one hour flying time at the approved one-engine inoperative cruise speed (under standard conditions in still air) from an adequate airport."
ETOPS Portion of Flight -That portion of a flight that begins the first moment an aircraft is greater than one hour flying time atthe approved single-engine inoperative cruise speed (under standard conditions in still air) from the nearest adequate airport, and ends the last moment it is greater than one hour from the nearest adequate airport.


User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5697 times:

Quoting toby25 (Thread starter):
I was wondering if someone smart out there can explain to me what ETOPS mean?

Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim!

-m

  


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5565 times:

In my understand, ETPS90 as example says that the aircraft and airline is certified to fly routes where a twin might reach up to 90 minutes with one engine out - which is slower than with both turning.

User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2444 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5505 times:

There are also discussions out there debating whether ETOPS is even viable anymore. The chances these days of two engines on a twin shutting down for different reasons are slim to none. Point being that anything that would cause a double shutdown would also cause shutdowns to aircraft with three or more engines. I.E. fuel starvation, or volcanic ash. Which have happened by the way. The bigger issue these days are how far away should an airport be in the event of a fire on board, or a serious medical issue, or any other scenario where the aircraft needs to get down that has nothing to do with how many engines the aircraft has.


Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineAmatiel From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5467 times:

Actually, ETOPS now refers to Extended Operations and is no longer exclusive to twins.

http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat...all_infos/media/2007/info07004.pdf


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5458 times:

Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
FAA Definition: "Extended Range Operation with Two-engine Airplanes (ETOPS)" and also referred to as “Extended-range Twin-engine Operations (ETOPS)”
Quoting rosterdriven (Reply 2):
FAA Definition: "Extended Range Operation with Two-engine Airplanes (ETOPS)" and also referred to as “Extended-range Twin-engine Operations (ETOPS)”

Not anymore. Since 2007, ETOPS-regulations also apply to 3- and 4-engine aircraft, although only when the nearest diversion airport is more than 180 minutes away.

Since the application of these rules, ETOPS is redefined as 'Extended Operations'.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Gu...46b0057fd06/$FILE/AC%20120-42B.pdf
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...rticles/qtr_2_07/article_02_7.html

So 2-engine aircraft need to be ETOPS-certified whenever the nearest diversion airport is more than 60 minutes away, 3- and 4-engined aircraft need it when they fly routes with alternatives more than 180 minutes away. 3- and 4-engine freighters are exempted.


User currently offlineTCASAlert From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5458 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
In my understand, ETPS90 as example says that the aircraft and airline is certified to fly routes where a twin might reach up to 90 minutes with one engine out - which is slower than with both turning.

Aside from the aircraft being able to run on one engine there are other requirements, such as extra equipment in the life rafts for example, to ensure the passengers can survive for longer in the event of a ditching.


User currently offlinerdh3e From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1676 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5458 times:

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 3):
Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim!

I've always said "Engines Turn Or People Swim" cause the crew would be swimming too.


User currently offlinerobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5353 times:

Quoting Amatiel (Reply 6):
Actually, ETOPS now refers to Extended Operations and is no longer exclusive to twins.

Is that FAA only or also EASA?


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5224 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 5):
There are also discussions out there debating whether ETOPS is even viable anymore.

You raised and quashed your own argument.

Two engines flaming out at the same time is always a dangerous possibility. As you said volcanic ash can do that, and we know how seismic the planet has become recently. Who would have thought all 4 engines on that BA 747 over Sumatra could flame out? There are also electrical faults that can happen.

I wonder how comforted the passengers would be to know 'We are now flying 90 mins from the nearest airport on our lovely twin jet'?

I believe, although I could be wrong, but don't these ETOPs certificates apply to airline and not the aircraft?


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3075 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5207 times:

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 3):
Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim!

Eating Time Of Pacific Sharks


User currently offlineAmatiel From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5135 times:

Quoting robffm2 (Reply 10):
Is that FAA only or also EASA?

I do not know how that applies to EASA, sorry. I know they were looking at harmonizing when the FAA change occurred, but do not know if EASA ever changed their rule.


User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4921 times:
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ETOPS involves much more than the aircraft itself and certain required redundant systems... it is a maintainence plan, crew training plan etc.

User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 736 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4849 times:

Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 3):
Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim!
Quoting rdh3e (Reply 9):
I've always said "Engines Turn Or People Swim" cause the crew would be swimming too.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
Eating Time Of Pacific Sharks

   Every time ETOPS comes up with my friends we always try to come up with different acronyms, many of which aren't appropriate to share here. Fun fact; not many people realize that ETOPS doesn't just apply to over-water flights as many flights over Siberia have ETOPS restrictions as well due to the lack of suitable alternates.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4296 times:

Quoting Babybus (Reply 11):
I believe, although I could be wrong, but don't these ETOPs certificates apply to airline and not the aircraft?

Both. The aircraft needs to be ETOPS-certified and the operator needs an ETOPS certification in their operations certificate. You can have an ETOPS-certified operator that can't fly certain aircraft ETOPS (e.g. 717's at Hawaiian) and ETOPS-certified aircraft at operators without ETOPS certificates (e.g. 737NG's at WestJet until recently).

Tom.


User currently offlinerosterdriven From Christmas Island, joined Apr 2008, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 14):
Quoting robffm2 (Reply 10):
Is that FAA only or also EASA?

I do not know how that applies to EASA, sorry. I know they were looking at harmonizing when the FAA change occurred, but do not know if EASA ever changed their rule.

Seems EASA still uses the old ETOPS rules.

Source: page 28

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...uri=OJ:L:2008:254:0001:0238:EN:PDF


User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1963 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4109 times:

What does an airline have to do (aside from rafts, radios, APU, etc...) to become ETOPS certified with the FAA? What "proving flights" would they have to do?


My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

Airlines need to prove their reliability standards & IFSD record to be above a base requirement over time before they can apply for ETOPS permission.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3621 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3726 times:

It means more boring big twins! ETOP is a spotter worst nightmare, because due to ETOP, you have trijets pretty gone, quads getting phase out in favor of twin. I thought guys like me, had a friend with cargo and charter airlines, but Fed Ex and Omni International, prove me wrong. It make sick to my stomach that Fed Ex is doing so well with the 777F, these planes took place of Fed Ex A380F order, and yes that was Airbus fought, but I would have rather seen Fed Ex just continued operating MD-11s on their flag ship routes than, them ordering a big twin. I would like to give the person who came up the ETOP's ideal, ( not saying I would, just would like to) a fat lip and black eye.      




PS: This is just classic 747400sp venting.  


User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3718 times:
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Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 16):
Both. The aircraft needs to be ETOPS-certified and the operator needs an ETOPS certification in their operations certificate.

Exactly! For example, DL has some 757s which are ETOPs certified, and also has many 757s that are not.


User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13602 posts, RR: 61
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3604 times:
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Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
ETOPS means Extened Twin Operations.

Not to nit-pick, but the acronym is actually Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 736 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3557 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):
Quoting airtran737 (Reply 1):
ETOPS means Extened Twin Operations.

Not to nit-pick, but the acronym is actually Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards.

Not to nit-pick, but the acronym is different for different groups of people but it all means the same thing. The ICAO defines it as Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards. The FAA defines is as Extended Operations. United Kingdom's CAA defines it as Extended range Twin Operations. The European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) defines it as Extended Range Operation with Two-Engine Aeroplanes.  


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3453 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):

Not to nit-pick, but the acronym is actually Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards

In the US the acronym *used* to include "twin". Now, by definition of the FAA, it does not. Your mileage in other regulatory environments may vary.

Tom.


25 EA CO AS : But as we're talking about the origin of the acronym itself, it's important to include the proper terminology used, despite what it has been re-defin
26 Post contains links yeelep : Unless I missed it, nobody determined whether we were discussing current or original ETOPS terms. Boeing's Aero magazine has a excellent article on t
27 kellmark : Actually, although ETOPS is still in common use, and is likely to remain so for some time as it has been used for so long, and is published in so many
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