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AI And Star Resume Talks  
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3734 times:

AI entry into STAR in exchange for A380 rights for STAR members?
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Air-In...-resume-talks/Article1-756987.aspx

Quote:
Airline grouping Star Alliance and Air India (AI) are back at the negotiating table. Representatives of the alliance met AI CMD Rohit Nandan on Wednesday - the first such meeting since August, when Star told AI that its three-and-a-half year courtship for membership was over.

"AI had full backing of the government in this case," said a ministry official. "By rejecting it, Star had closed its options as far as India was concerned. They have realised this."

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3662 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
"AI had full backing of the government in this case," said a ministry official. "By rejecting it, Star had closed its options as far as India was concerned. They have realised this."

All of a sudden I realize that maybe HIDDEN government agendas and corruption is better...


User currently offlinezkojh From China, joined Sep 2004, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3658 times:

word comes to mind - blackmail, don't think star will go for this. Every other airline in the group has kept to the time frame


CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5478 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3493 times:

In the long run, this is probably good for everybody since it might loosen the reigns on expansion by other Indian Carriers having the GOI's crown jewel, (and money pit), getting their way.

Soon enough, the others will be big enough and opposition to this AI crap strong enough that there will be little the GOI could do to hold the others back without serious repercussions.

This nonsense is just too blatant and too open to last forever. Good, long term corruption can only survive like mushrooms; in the shadows covered in crap.



What the...?
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

This isn't corruption, just blatant favoritism. If anything the GoI is being refreshingly open and unsubtle about backing AI.

User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5478 posts, RR: 31
Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Quoting delimit (Reply 4):

When the cash for the blatant favoritism is from the public coffers and is to the detriment of competing businesses, (and the traveling public), then it's corruption.

The openness of the corruption probably only seems refreshing to those not negatively effected by it.



What the...?
User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3402 times:

Unless you are planning on labeling the entire government institution in India corrupt, then no it isnt. That's not corruption, no matter how distasteful you may find the behavior.

This is just a fairly extreme example of protectionism, which all governments are equally guilty of. The GoI is just being particularly obvious about it.


User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 820 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

I believe a lot of people were curious to know as to who would give in first...
I guess the A380 ban threat was too much to handle for Star (or LH??)

Quoting zkojh (Reply 2):
word comes to mind - blackmail, don't think star will go for this. Every other airline in the group has kept to the time frame

And not every airline in the group caters to such a high growth market.... If Star was not interested in India, they would not have waited for so long and now would not come back for talks after just a couple of months after denying entry to AI.


User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3317 times:

The Government of India's remit is to promote the well being of its airline industry and not prop up a single, failing state-owned carrier. Unfortunately, there is a hodge-podge of ideology with a socialist tinge in place that prevents India from making great leaps forward.

Right now we have a shotgun wedding in progress between Star and AI. I hope Star doesn't give in, after all minsters come and go with the wind.

India is at crossroads - corruption is endemic and is tarnishing the India story. China has the same disease too, but businessmen get hanged if they are outed. Foreign capital is flowing out again from the country.

Great societies don't just come about, they require great moral leadership and great sacrifice. A generation of Indians won Independence in a manner that the world admired. It's time for the current generation to take back control and build a country to be proud of.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2241 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3211 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
The Government of India's remit is to promote the well being of its airline industry and not prop up a single, failing state-owned carrier. Unfortunately, there is a hodge-podge of ideology with a socialist tinge in place that prevents India from making great leaps forward.
Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
India is at crossroads - corruption is endemic and is tarnishing the India story. China has the same disease too, but businessmen get hanged if they are outed. Foreign capital is flowing out again from the country.
Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
Great societies don't just come about, they require great moral leadership and great sacrifice. A generation of Indians won Independence in a manner that the world admired. It's time for the current generation to take back control and build a country to be proud of.

I could not have said this better myself. Brilliant insight. I remember reading this excerpt in an article published in Times of India on January 1, 2007:

As a paper, we have advocated that government's role in business should be minimal. We have favoured disinvestment, opposed over-regulation. We have said that instead of running businesses, government should channel its time and money into ensuring efficient delivery of education, healthcare and infrastructure. Sadly, that has not happened.

I wanted AI to be in Star Alliance, so badly. But, they were given ample time to do so, and that ship has sailed. Painfully, I agree that at this stage in the game, Star should not give in. Time to move on.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3602 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3142 times:

Par for the course in India. No real surprise. India has done business in this way since independence. If anything, this is much more mild of a response that the GOI would have had 20 or 30 years ago.

India is not North America or Europe. Things in India do not happen the same way as in the west, and shouldn't be expected to . There are very large cultural and economic differences from the west.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5478 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

I could understand protectionism for ALL domestic airlines, but to put so much time, energy and money into, what is looking more like, one of the least shining examples of Indian aviation, is hurting the industry as whole.

Almost every country has some industry it protects against outsiders...but AI is being protected against local competition as much as, (or even more than), international competition.

They don't have to throw AI to the wolves...just to the people who really own it; the citizens of India. Let them decide which airlines best represent India...which they will do with the most effective vote of all; their own ticket money.



What the...?
User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2970 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
AI entry into STAR in exchange for A380 rights for STAR members?

Any what will India do to prevent OW and Sky members to operate the A388 to india...?

Will they ask them to join their alliances as well...?


 


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7633 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

It is all regulated via bilaterals if I am not mistaken. From what I have read here, India tends to include in its bilateral aviation agreements clauses limiting or regulating the size/type of aircraft that the airlines of the other country may use. Correct me please if I am wrong.

I don't know what to make of this resumption of talks. I wonder if Jet Airways will continue its talks with Star Alliance, or whether AF, DL et al. will retry to lure 9W with the offer to include it in the trans-Atlantic alliance.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5478 posts, RR: 31
Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

AI could probably use 2 Indian airlines in the long run. Maybe, (if AI doesn't pitch a fit), Jet will join as well.


What the...?
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3284 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2886 times:

Quoting zkojh (Reply 2):
word comes to mind - blackmail, don't think star will go for this. Every other airline in the group has kept to the time frame

I'm not defending AI's 3 year delay in meeting the joining criteria, but the blackmail was equally from *A as well - supposedly forcing the govt. to include 9W in *A, and bringing in the 380 for LH. Neither side is in the clear, it's just that for the change, the govt of India is being transparent, and *A is hiding behind mumbo-jumbo. They had gone on record to state that AI had in fact met the MJC prior to the current deadline, but yet they did not usher in AI on schedule..



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2848 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 13):
I don't know what to make of this resumption of talks. I wonder if Jet Airways will continue its talks with Star Alliance, or whether AF, DL et al. will retry to lure 9W with the offer to include it in the trans-Atlantic alliance.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
AI could probably use 2 Indian airlines in the long run. Maybe, (if AI doesn't pitch a fit), Jet will join as well.

I wouldn't be too surprised if Jet were to join soon after AI does. This resumption of talk could all be part of a grand bargain where AI gets to join first, and then Jets gets invited. Not a bad outcome in my opinion for all concerned.

Quoting 328JET (Reply 12):
Any what will India do to prevent OW and Sky members to operate the A388 to india...?

Will they ask them to join their alliances as well...?

I concur with the answer below by EddieDude.. I am sure EK will get A380 rights too, perhaps along with more seats overall, in exchange for some trade concessions and the usual "gifts" to politicians and bureaucrats. Indian federal elections are not too far away, and the current ruling party may want to monetise to the maximum the short time left until the next election.


Quoting EddieDude (Reply 13):
It is all regulated via bilaterals if I am not mistaken. From what I have read here, India tends to include in its bilateral aviation agreements clauses limiting or regulating the size/type of aircraft that the airlines of the other country may use.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13549 posts, RR: 100
Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2200 times:
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It amuses me how well India does presenting their side of the discussion. Interesting as the government of India is finding other countries are not wanting to open up their markets further to India due to the 'buracratic details' of the GOI.

Quoting delimit (Reply 6):
This is just a fairly extreme example of protectionism, which all governments are equally guilty of.

India is worse than most. While there was money to be made, people didn't care. But:

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
Foreign capital is flowing out again from the country.
This rapid decline in the rupee also highlights problems with India's balance of payments. Its current account deficit is usually masked by capital inflows, thanks to investors seeking emerging-market exposure. But such hot money can flow out when investors flee to safer assets. Since August, investors have sold off net $2.6 billion of Indian shares, according to data from the capital markets regulator.

From (subscription required):
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 10):
India is not North America or Europe. Things in India do not happen the same way as in the west, and shouldn't be expected to . There are very large cultural and economic differences from the west.
Are they going to withdrawl from the global markets and cut the fiber optic cables? If not, the global investment community will react.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 15):
I'm not defending AI's 3 year delay in meeting the joining criteria, but the blackmail was equally from *A as well - supposedly forcing the govt. to include 9W in *A, and bringing in the 380 for LH.

Every time one goes to the negotiating table, one should see if there is 'an angle to get more.' That isn't blackmail, that is negotiation.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 16):
am sure EK will get A380 rights too, perhaps along with more seats overall, in exchange for some trade concessions and the usual "gifts" to politicians and bureaucrats.

If India wants rights for more exports to the UAE, they must give something. Currently chemical and pharma is under negotiation.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinegr8circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3130 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1654 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 17):
If India wants rights for more exports to the UAE, they must give something. Currently chemical and pharma is under negotiation.

Lightsaber

The UAE has got away with more than enough in the past.....including sheltering some of India's most wanted criminals and terrorists....it's a very small export market for India anyway.....


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