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787 Production Thread Part 1  
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2708 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 51467 times:

Now that 2 787s have been delivered, I would love to see a 787 thread similar to the A380 production thread:

A380 Production Thread #10 (by someone83 Aug 3 2011 in Civil Aviation)

I am industry outsider so I don't have a ton of information to add except what I read here and from this blog:

http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

So, to get things kicked off, the following is a summary of 787s:

Test Aircraft - 6 (Not Including Static Test Aircraft)
LN1-LN6

Delivered - 2
LN8 - ANA - 9/25/2011
LN24 - ANA - 10/13/2011

Final Preps for Delivery - 1
LN9 - ANA - (Next for Delivery)

Change Incorporation and Re-Work - 36 (Including 2 in San Antonio)
LN7
LN10-23
LN25-45

Final Assembly - 4 (Including 1 in Charleston)
LN46-49

268 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 51385 times:

Any idea on when LN9 delivers?

The last rumor I heard was 8 787's delivered this year. Other than 8,9 and 24 what are the other likely candidates?



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4328 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 51303 times:

apart from the 6 test aircraft and the 2 delivered aircraft, only 3 others have flown already (please correct me if there are more).
l/n 9 (ANA JA803A)
l/n 23 (JAL JA852J)
l/n 29 (AIC VT-AND)
They must hurry and get the other parked 787s in the air to reach 8 deliveries by the end of the year.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently onlinejustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1057 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 50903 times:

What airlines are getting planes?

User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1610 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 50820 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 2):
apart from the 6 test aircraft and the 2 delivered aircraft, only 3 others have flown already (please correct me if there are more).
l/n 9 (ANA JA803A)
l/n 23 (JAL JA852J)
l/n 29 (AIC VT-AND)
They must hurry and get the other parked 787s in the air to reach 8 deliveries by the end of the year.

According to Flightblogger, LN7, 9, 31, 35, 40 and 41 were the most likely candidates to follow the first two. However, it seems that GEnx certification on the 787 is delayed and only RR planes will be delivered this year. Which means LN35 is out, and we will see only 787's in service for ANA for a while...

And apart from GEnx certification issues, it really depends on how much rework is needed on the 787 which have left FAL. The ones having recently left FAL don't have too much rework apparently, but some sources say it may take 1,5 years to clear all 787s which are littered all over PAE...



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlineCOEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 337 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 50806 times:

Does VT-AND still have engines? Or has it been parked sans engines while AI figures out where to find the money to pay for them?

User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2708 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 50789 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 2):
apart from the 6 test aircraft and the 2 delivered aircraft, only 3 others have flown already (please correct me if there are more).
l/n 9 (ANA JA803A)
l/n 23 (JAL JA852J)
l/n 29 (AIC VT-AND)
They must hurry and get the other parked 787s in the air to reach 8 deliveries by the end of the year.

According to this, you are correct http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

I would imagine they are waiting to get the re-work completed before preparing for flight otherwise would they have to prep for flight twice, over simplified I am sure but is that correct? Unless they need to fly it to San Antonio to get the re-work completed...two of the three that have flown are in San Antonio and the third has completed re-work...so that seems to make sense.

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 4):
The ones having recently left FAL don't have too much rework apparently,

Are you sure? The UA 787 that just came out of the factory won't be delivered until the 2nd half of 2012...


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5762 posts, RR: 47
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 50725 times:

The key to deliveries is when each aircraft gets its engines. There are a few 787s at Everett that have their engines attached meaning that they maybe close to finishing up the change incorporation and re-work. I'm trying to find out wihch airplanes (other than the two in San Antonio) have engines. There is LN 35 and LN 33 and possibly LN 21.

Also I have been told not to expect any 787 deliveries in November. CXurrently Boeing is conducting F&R/ETOPs testing on the GEnx powered 787s after which it should receive type certification and allow those deliveries to start.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1610 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 50636 times:

Quoting United787 (Reply 6):
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 4):The ones having recently left FAL don't have too much rework apparently,
Are you sure? The UA 787 that just came out of the factory won't be delivered until the 2nd half of 2012...

That will more likely due to the backlog of rework on the earlier produced frames than on the UA bird itself... And as the GEnx 787 isn't certified yet, it has no use moving the 787 up the line either.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Also I have been told not to expect any 787 deliveries in November

OK, let's hope we will see a lot of 748Fs delivered in November then. December will be a busy month for Boeing, wrapping up all these 787s in Xmas paper  
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Currently Boeing is conducting F&R/ETOPs testing on the GEnx powered 787s after which it should receive type certification and allow those deliveries to start.

Any idea when these tests will be concluded?



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 50425 times:

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 8):
Quoting NYC777 (Reply 7):
Currently Boeing is conducting F&R/ETOPs testing on the GEnx powered 787s after which it should receive type certification and allow those deliveries to start.

Any idea when these tests will be concluded?

Boeing is flying the heck out of -5 and -6. Daily 7+ hour flights should build the time pretty quickly.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineflyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 582 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 50317 times:

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Now that 2 787s have been delivered, I would love to see a 787 thread similar to the A380 production thread:

A380 Production Thread #10 (by someone83 Aug 3 2011 in Civil Aviation)

I am industry outsider so I don't have a ton of information to add except what I read here and from this blog:

http://nyc787.blogspot.com/

So, to get things kicked off, the following is a summary of 787s:

Thank you for starting it - good idea and the right time to do so.

regards

Flyglobal


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6920 posts, RR: 63
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 49974 times:

Quoting United787 (Thread starter):
Now that 2 787s have been delivered, I would love to see a 787 thread similar to the A380 production thread.

Excellent idea. Thanks.


User currently offlinekaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2377 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 49758 times:

Important point to note:

Ln 7-19 are heavy versions of the 787. These are 13,500 pounds overweight. Of these planes, ANA is getting 8 of them. LAN is getting 2. Royal Air Maroc is getting 2.

The 787 from Ln 20 onwards will be incrementally lighter. LN 34 and LN 50 are block points for further weight reductions.
LN90 will be the first 787-8 meeting the aircraft’s original weight target.


User currently offlineAvi8 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 49074 times:
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So ANA already has 2 787's. When will more be delivered. I never seem to understand that


avi8
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 49020 times:
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Quoting Avi8 (Reply 13):
So ANA already has 2 787's. When will more be delivered.

They should have their third ( JA803A / LN09 ) soon.


User currently offlinetak From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 48728 times:

I had some speculation I posted in another thread almost three weeks ago:

Quoting tak (Reply 3):
The article from aspire aviation suggests that line number 7, 8 and 9 are the only airplanes in the first 20 produced that will go prior to 2012 due to the amount of rework needed on some of these aircraft?

For ANA: LN# 8 (ZA101) has been delivered and LN #7 (ZA100) and 9 (ZA 102) are being redid for delivery soon from what the aspire aviation post suggests. Also, LN#24 (ZA103) has had its first flight and is painted in the same special livery as LN#8 so presumably will be the next to be delivered to ANA. There are other airplanes destined for ANA but may need significant rework still?

Royal Air Maroc: has LN # 17 (ZA150 and 19 (ZA151) being worked on, so perhaps LN#19 will be delivered before 2012?

LAN: has LN#16 (ZA531) which has exited the shop as well as LN#48 (ZA532) that was scheduled to start final assembly last week. I am guessing that the earlier one will be readied? I would guess that the one just starting final assembly will not be able to make it by the end of the year. ***edit*** also LN#10 (ZA530) thanks for pointing out the omission***

JAL: LN#23 (ZA177) is down at Lackland AFB being refurbished for delivery, possibly soon?

IA: If they can figure out how to pay for them --> Air India Has 'no Money' To Pay For 787s (by Part147 Sep 12 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Air India has several aircraft out of final assembly: LN# 25 (ZA230), 26 (ZA231), 28 (ZA232), 29 (ZA233), 30 (ZA 234), 32 (ZA 235), 35 (ZA236) with LN #46 (ZA237) having started final assembly in Charleston SC. I wonder which of these is being readied for first delivery. LN#29 (ZA233 had its first flight on July 31st(?) so perhaps would be the first to be delivered to Air India.

Some of that info is now outdated but, 2 787s delivered to ANA; with 2 planned to still be delivered to ANA before the end of the year: LN#9 and one other for ANA, I am wondering if it would be one of the later planes (not in the first 20) for use to FRA in January...

I am wondering if the reported delay in GENX certification will affect remaining deliveries in 2011. While LAN is using RR engines of the other airlines rumored to getting 2011 deliveries: Air India, JAL, RAM and China Southern all chose GE engines to power their planes.

Any guesses how many airplanes delivered before 2012? An earlier article I saw: http://www.aspireaviation.com/2011/0...m-becoming-reality-its-road-ahead/ said possibly only 7 dream liners to be delivered, but that was before GENX certification was taking longer than planned...


User currently onlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 48544 times:

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 12):
Important point to note:

Ln 7-19 are heavy versions of the 787. These are 13,500 pounds overweight. Of these planes, ANA is getting 8 of them. LAN is getting 2. Royal Air Maroc is getting 2.

The 787 from Ln 20 onwards will be incrementally lighter. LN 34 and LN 50 are block points for further weight reductions.

While empty weight improvements are good they only give you 115nm per metric ton, (ie +230nm for LN20) the more important step between LN7-19 and LN20- is the increase in MTOW from 219t to 228t, only 1t of these goes to reinforcements, the rest is extra fuel or payload (MZFW goes from 156t to 161t). This extra fuel brings you +700nm, this is what makes FRA possible for ANA. Essentially the LN7-19 have a spec range of some 6800nm and LN20- have a spec range over 7500nm gradually growing to 8000nm over time as the MEW reaches the target.

So I would say frames under LN20 is a special case, from LN20 all frames are perfectly suitable for long haul operations, your interior will essentially then decide how long you can haul what payload (the spec range is with an interior of some 63kg per pax, typical is more like 80kg).

[Edited 2011-10-21 23:37:22]


Non French in France
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 48236 times:
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Shaving a couple percent of the cruise SFC when the Package A Trent 1000s are swapped for Package B Trent 1000s will help the range on LN07-LN20. And then when they get Package C and are at (or better than) original spec, they will see an additional range boost.

User currently offlineAvi8 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 48246 times:
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Is the 787 even profitable now with a 3 year delay and numerous cancellations?


avi8
User currently onlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 48167 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
Shaving a couple percent of the cruise SFC when the Package A Trent 1000s are swapped for Package B Trent 1000s will help the range on LN07-LN20. And then when they get Package C and are at (or better than) original spec, they will see an additional range boost.

You gain about 100nm per 1% of SFC reduction, the very first ANA frames with package A engines therefore only have 6700nm range (LN below 20) and 7400nm (LN20-34) with package A rollers. The frst GE frames will also be 3% of so they will have the same range as the A rollers.



Non French in France
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31003 posts, RR: 86
Reply 20, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 48037 times:
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Quoting Avi8 (Reply 18):
Is the 787 even profitable now with a 3 year delay and numerous cancellations?

At the moment, Boeing claims it will be.

Their next Earnings Conference is in a week and it's expected they will still state the program is profitable if they can deliver 1000 of them.

While this number is more than double that of the accounting blocks of earlier programs, when Boeing stuffed-up production of the 737NG in 1997, they had to double the accounting block from 400 to 800 units. And even with the cancellations, the 787 is right around 800 units (counting pending orders like AF/KL and such) and as deliveries increase, so should new orders.


User currently offlineairnorth From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 47916 times:
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I'm not very good with acronyms, although sometimes by scrolling through different threads, online search engines, and generally becoming more familiar with the industry, I can figure them out.
But....I need help with "SFC", anyone? I don't think its Securities and Futures Commissions.


User currently offlineadipasqu From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 47900 times:

Quoting airnorth (Reply 21):
SFC

Specific Fuel Consumption



707 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 752 753 762 763 764 D9S D10 319 320 321 M80 M82 M83 M87 M88 M90 SF3 ERJ CRJ
User currently onlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2804 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 47677 times:

Quoting adipasqu (Reply 22):
Specific Fuel Consumption

It is the turbofans MPG, the nice thing about it is that it is lb fuel/lbf thrust and hour. Multiply with the required thrust and you have lb/hr fuel consumption. There is typically 2 values floating around, take-of thrust and cruise thrust SFC. The latter is the interesting one and is around 0,53 for the latest engines. Now a 787-8 needs about 10000 lbf engine thrust per engine to overcome drag during cruise at FL370 therefore you consume:

2 engines * 10.000 * 0,53 = 10600 lb of fuel / hour when in cruise.



Non French in France
User currently offlineual747-600 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 582 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 11 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 47491 times:

After looking at the allthings787 website it looks as though after ANA JA803A Boeing is prioritizing later build ANA 787's for delivery. I'm just speculating here and have no inside info whatsoever but look where line #'s 31, 40, 41 and 42 are in the EMC bays while all the others are outside hangers.

Does anyone know how complete the 787's coming off the line are these days and how much, if any, additional rework has to be completed prior to delivery preparation?

Thanks.

UAL747-600

[Edited 2011-10-22 14:33:33]

25 Stitch : Based on reports, it sounds like the major component suppliers are generally up to speed, so once the subs can incorporate all the changes at the fac
26 r2rho : Thank you for starting this! Good timing as well. As a follower of the A380 Production threads, I was missing a 787-equivalent! The A380 threads have
27 Stitch : Boeing is planning to do just that.
28 Post contains links tak : The big question looming out there still is whether boeing can successfully complete the ramp up in production rate. Bernstein research predicts that
29 2175301 : I am quite sure that Boeing will be able to successfully ramp up to 10 per year in 2012. In fact I suspect they might ramp up to 50-75 per year in 20
30 dfwrevolution : Correction: your article says they believe they will be at 10 airplanes per month by 2015.
31 Post contains images tak : oops, yes my mistake up to 10 airplanes per month. My apologies
32 NYC777 : Beoing is reporting that they will be finalling initating the 2.5/month production rate on the 787 starting this week (I have Oct. 30 listed on my blo
33 starrion : That m That makes the LOT claim that their first frame won't be delivered until 2013 even less understandable. That frame should be out of the shop by
34 kanban : Probably should clarify that statement as limited to changes and rework associated with problems discovered during the flight test program affecting
35 Post contains links and images frigatebird : Meanwhile, Boeing now officially admits delivery of the first 787-9 has slipped to 2014 http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...47-8i-and-787-9-deliver
36 WarpSpeed : One would hope that Boeing could process nearly complete frames in parallel with those going through change incorp. It is my understanding that the R
37 Spacepope : Tangentally related to 787 production, but can anyone explain why a dreamlifer has been doing roundtrips the past few days between AEX and here in COS
38 Rheinbote : I hear that LOT's first airplane (LN61) has been reassigned to ANA. A good source told me that rework of the LN7-LN19 lot is going to stretch into th
39 Post contains links ual747-600 : Does anyone know what line number JA805A is for ANA? Here'a a shot of it yesterday next to JAL line #38 both with engines on. http://paineairport.com/
40 Stitch : All Things 787 did an analysis and they expect the final frame of the first tranche to be delivered in November 2012 (roughly one per month though 20
41 SunriseValley : When the first 789 rolls out what is the process and time needed to certify it? How many frames will be used for this purpose?
42 Stitch : I expect they will need at least two - one to certify with Trent 1000 power and one to certify with GEnx power. The 747-8 program is reported to need
43 NYC777 : Actually I believe JA805A is LN12/ZA501
44 Rheinbote : Well in addition to my source, Scott Fancher indicated that rework is going to take years [pl.]. I do not know on what information NYC777's (who is '
45 NYC777 : ANA is still going to get 787 within the LN 7 - LN 19 tranche that was allocated to them. They just have different ZA numbers.
46 MEA-707 : It's now 1 November... no first flights of any 787s in the whole of October. Even while that doesn't mean much, JA802A was delivered within 3 weeks of
47 incitatus : If that is right, then by the end of 2012 there will be about 60 787s and about 85 A380s in operation. The number of 787s in operation will surpass t
48 NYC777 : ANA has stated last month that they expect 5 more 787 by the end of the year (next two months). They'll have 7 in the flight by Dec. 31st. I expect t
49 COEWR787 : Which airline will be the first Genx customer to receive an aircraft?
50 NYC777 : Unclear at this time but it will be either Air India or Japan Airlines. My money is Air India but it depends on what the GoI wants to do with the 787
51 NYC777 : Got a few more final assembly start dates: L/N 51 - 11/10/11 L/N 52 - 11/22/11 L/N 53 - 12/6/11
52 ikramerica : My guess is NH needs the long range increased MTOW aircraft more than the domestic birds right now, especially after the earthquake. Aircraft 7-19 (t
53 Rheinbote : JAL is not inclined to take GEnx-1B Block 4 engines, so whether or not JAL will get an airplane in 2011 depends on the timely availability of PIP1 en
54 someone83 : Looks more like 2 per month than 2,5 to me
55 nomadd22 : You expected them to deliver 1/2 a plane in November?
56 Post contains images iceberg210 : Well with all the rework required, maybe that means they finally delivered a plane fresh off the assembly line... Seriously though even with the slow
57 kanban : The time to watch the rate increase will be Jan-Feb. The Christmas and Thanksgiving shut downs will obscure it for the Nov-Dec. time periods
58 WarpSpeed : The start dates appear roughly 12 days apart (excludes T-giving). Every 12 days = 2.5/month
59 NYC777 : L/N 51 - 11/10/11 - 14 days between L/N50 and the start of final L/N 52 - 11/22/11 - 12 days between L/N51 and the start of final L/N 53 - 12/6/11 - 1
60 dynamicsguy : Or you can consider it as 8 M days Ln 51-52, 8 M days Ln 52-53, and you usually get 20 M days per month, so this is 2.5/month. M days = manufacturing
61 Post contains links mffoda : Here is a little more form Jim Albaugh on production. He claimed they were already at 2.5 per mo. http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20111103/BLOG01/111
62 nomadd22 : Not a job I'd want. Get 99.9% of the suppliers in line and one sole sorce dingleflopper manufacturer can still bring it all to a halt.
63 NYC777 : How many manufacturing days in a week?
64 WarpSpeed : I believe he is also quoted as saying that outfitting the frames with systems is the biggest hurdle to increasing the production rate.
65 tdscanuck : 5 Tom.
66 NYC777 : I've jsut updated the 787 production and disposition page of the blog with the latest locations of the built out 787 airframes. JA805A is actually a l
67 Post contains links mattcawby : Hmm that was JA811A a few months ago http://paineairport.com/kpae3968.htm
68 NYC777 : Yeah Boeing has been switching things around and since they're delivering a mix of new and old build aircraft it's hardly surprising that L/N 31 was
69 NYC777 : There will be a line move today with L/N 51 (for LAN) entering final assembly. L/N 47 for ANA will be moving out presumably to the paint hangar.
70 SCL767 : That's great, perhaps this will be the first B-787-8 Dreamliner to enter service with LAN.
71 Post contains links Spacepope : Just noticed on flightaware: ZA177 headed back to PAE. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...7/history/20111113/1800Z/KSKF/KPAE Looks like it did an
72 Stitch : Hopefully they have finished the change incorporation and she's ready for delivery to JL.
73 NYC777 : That's exactly the situation. Looks like it'll be ready for delivery soon though it still has to have its interior installed. All interiors will be d
74 Post contains links United787 : Exciting news...I wonder which 787 will head to TX next? According to http://nyc787.blogspot.com/ , there are 3 787s now in Final Preps for Delivery:
75 NYC777 : According to my sources, Boeing will deliver only 2 more 787s this year. Those two are late build airplanes L/N 31 on Dec. 13 and L/N 41 on Dec. 18 fi
76 WarpSpeed : I've read your post on All Things 787 (many thanks!) and can somewhat excuse Boeing on point 1 - that the amount of rework/change incorporation is in
77 kanban : There are several problems in the rework arena that can cause delays.. 1) Rework must be sequenced so the deepest issues are worked first and once an
78 tdscanuck : 9 women cannot make a baby in 1 month. When you're talking about working on a physical object, there is a limit to how many people and how much work
79 Post contains links kanban : Boeing tried this in the 60's, mechanics stood in line to enter the fuselage to install a part..only to get back in 20 minutes later with the next pi
80 gemuser : Not just physical objects, software is even worse, just ask IBM! (see The Mythical Man Month, the orginal O/S 360 was never delivered). Actually I an
81 WarpSpeed : I understand your point, but it does not address the many 787's that sit in Everett in a mothballed state. Nobody is tripping over each other on Runw
82 AngMoh : I most engineering organisations I have seen, embedded software has become the most structured and disciplined area, thanks to roll out of CMM/CMMI.
83 kanban : off subject, however did you notice there is no longer a Boeing Computer Division... They hit the wall too often costing the company big contracts. e
84 JoeCanuck : Interesting story...shockingly candid public statements from Boeing.
85 tdscanuck : Yes, it does...Everett is using every single build position they have available. They bought the ATS hanger, including their paint hanger (+5 stalls)
86 Post contains images ferpe : Great stuff, thanks. So redoing the wiring on the FAL instead of getting it right and installed in the part-assembly stuffing is once again a big ret
87 kanban : This may not have been installed incorrectly, but designed incorrectly so the Change Board process will identify when the harness manufactures can be
88 Post contains images ferpe : I did not mean install incorrectly, I meant not correct from delivery, just like the A380. Now as I understand the main A380 problem was that the bun
89 mattcawby : The runway is closed and fenced off from the air operations area. A thousand people could work out there. As for big structures, work is done on the
90 tdscanuck : How are they going to get there? It's not like you can have a thousand people walking to/from the middle of the air operations area of a working airp
91 WarpSpeed : There has to be some kind of solution to speed up the rework/change incorporation Are they using all the space there? Boeing has noted they are consid
92 Stitch : Time and experience will help as Boeing can start developing more streamlined plans. Ironically, the high level of completion on production shipsets
93 kanban : Moving planes to other locations require engines which are not cheap plus they customer has to pay for them on delivery. I suspect that has a bearing
94 tdscanuck : San Antonio is a huge C-17 maintenance base...I have no idea if the facility is at 100% but it's certainly doing a lot more than working on 787's. In
95 NYC777 : There is now a second ANA 787 fitted with engines at the Everett fuel dock. I'm guessing that this is L/N 41.
96 NYC777 : Ok I got confirmation that L/N 41 is out on the flightline with its engines attached and at the fuel dock. Both this and L/N 31 will be delivered next
97 NYC777 : L/N 31 should be making its first flight sometime this week. If so then look for delivery just before Xmas time.
98 metsfan1 : Anyone know what is going on with the GEnex certification? Why is it taking so long?
99 Stitch : As of mid-month they were about 95% complete with F&R and ETOPs testing. With the (US) Thanksgiving holiday, that probably slowed things down a b
100 mattcawby : On November 17 you said it would fly last week, I think you are just guessing.
101 NYC777 : No I'm not. I get my information from sources but that is the best available information that I had at the time. Things change especially in this pro
102 Ruscoe : Do we know of any issues with the static fatigue test craft which could be holding things up? Ruscoe
103 NYC777 : No, if there was an issue then the aircraft would not have been certified by the FAA or EASA.
104 tdscanuck : According to Flightblogger (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/2011/11/genx-powered-787-certification.html) it's because the FAA wants p
105 NYC777 : Flightblogger said that the GEnx powered 787 to be used in the final F&R/ETOPs testing is L/N 35. This airplane is now out on the Everett flightl
106 MEA-707 : Do you mean L/N 23, ZA177 which flew already on 1 march 2011? I believe L/N 22 is an ANA aircraft ZA115. With L/N 31 still not flying and the last fi
107 NYC777 : Yes I stand corrected, I meant L/N 23. Blame it on fat finger syndrome!
108 NYC777 : Mat tCawby id'ed another 787 for ANA outside of the EMC as JA808A. This airplane is L/N 42 (ZA105) and is planned for delivery in January.
109 Post contains images petera380 : Hello, Does anyone have a definitve list matching B787 registrations to L/N numbers? Specifically for ANA? I had asked Matt Cawby to include the L/N
110 petera380 : By the way, I have L/N 42 as ZA119 and ZA105 as L/N 1! Hence all the confusion surround ANA B787's! Peter
111 NYC777 : Nope I have L/N 42 as ZA105. L/N 1 is ZA001. My lsit on the blog is pretty much accurate in terms of matching up the "ZA" number with the line number
112 Post contains links WarpSpeed : Special thanks to Matt Cawby (a/k/a http://kpae.blogspot.com/) and Uresh (a/k/a NYC777 and http://nyc787.blogspot.com/)! A.Net's eyes and ears at KPAE
113 petera380 : [quote=http://nyc787.blogspot.com/)![/quote] Thanks, very useful. Peter
114 Post contains links WarpSpeed : Thanks, very useful. Peter [/quote] Use this link to All Things 787. My earlier link did not work effectively and I included the "!" . http://nyc787.
115 Post contains links ual747-600 : Does anyone know the line number of JA804A that was seen and photographed at KPAE yesterday? Is it line 40? http://kpae.blogspot.com/ UAL747-600
116 NYC777 : I'm trying to find out.
117 RobK : Matt doesn't know them so he can't "oblige", at least on the 787s anyway. There is still nothing set in stone with the reg/ln/msn tie up info on the
118 NYC777 : Jsut got the word that it is L/N9, ZA102. This aircraft had already flown an was involved with ETOPS/F&R testing for the Trent 1000 787. No word
119 Post contains links Stitch : A big update at All Things 787 noting that the Package B engines are now certified for use with the 787 so NH's next two birds (to be delivered this m
120 dynamicsguy : You sure about that for CHS? That doesn't tally with what I know about our production, and I thought they were taking it easier than that.
121 Post contains images petera380 : For those who are keeping an eye on the B787's at KPAE. Boeing seems to put the line number on a label by the main cabin door. When I visited KPAE thi
122 Post contains links RobK : http://paineairport.com/kpae4477.htm You must have bloody good eyesight.......
123 Stitch : Indeed. The actual line from NYC787 is "The plant is capable of producing 2.5 787 per month right now", so it could pump that many out.
124 petera380 : No I can't read it! If I enlarge the picture all I see is pixels! It maybe possible to enlarge it from the original digital picture.
125 Post contains images RobK : So in actual fact you have no idea if it is the l/n or not and are merely guessing!
126 JoeCanuck : I clicked on the pic and it is huge.
127 NYC777 : Actually Jim Albaugh said that last week. The plant is not producing 2.5 787s because Boeing and its suppliers are not up to a 5/month rate yet. Don'
128 WarpSpeed : In fact, didn't Boeing cannibalized sections headed to KPAE and reallocate to CHS so the first bird there could be snapped together more readily? If
129 NYC777 : That was quite a while ago and a one off situation. As Boeing moves to a production free (mostly) of travelled work there won't be any situations whe
130 NYC777 : ANA's third 787 just took off on its B1 test flight. This airplane should be delivered in about 2-3 weeks.
131 PM : JA804A? I'll be taking two (or more) 787 flights next month. Be nice to get on the new one!
132 Post contains images Dan23 : The call sign was BOE116 which leads me to believe it was ZA116/LN31/JA805A
133 PM : Thanks!
134 flightsimer : the ones their now arent new enough lol?
135 Post contains images PM : You never want to fly on the same plane twice!
136 NYC777 : Quite correct.
137 Post contains links ual747-600 : Here is a shot of JA805A just before take off. http://boeing-test-flights.blogspot.com/ Hadn't known of this site until today. UAL747-600
138 Post contains links tdscanuck : ZA006 just filed a flight plan for Seattle-Dhaka with a flight plan time of 20:23 http://flightaware.com/live/flight/B...6/history/20111206/1900Z/KBFI
139 JoeCanuck : That'll let it stretch its legs a bit.
140 NYC777 : ETOPS testing?
141 Spacepope : Strange routing. Headed directly east.
142 gigneil : Not on the 787. NS
143 Stitch : Per published reports, Boeing still allows customers to select the seat design they want, though they do offer a selection of ones already approved t
144 gigneil : I didn't think that was true, but believe you that it is. NS
145 ER757 : Yeah, that's pretty interesting. Nice long flight, good to see her testing her endurance. Did Biman choose engines for their 787's? Wondering if this
146 Post contains links tdscanuck : Nope, world record attempt according to Flightblogger (his post wasn't up when I posted the flight plan link): http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl..
147 kanban : A) note: I said generally B) do you have a source for your belief? Now Boeing does buy seats for their own purposes, mock ups and test planes. Used t
148 Post contains links tdscanuck : I actually found some sources stating the opposite but, more interestingly, in the process I found what *appears* to be an online version of the Nort
149 kanban : my anti virus prevents me from accessing... could you summarize what was interesting. back to seats, when I was in the Materiel Dept., the customer w
150 Post contains links 727tiger : Boeing test 787 (BOE2) due into CAE at 11:54 a.m. EST, according to FlightAware: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE2 I'm sitting at the gate conco
151 United787 : Any further word on the next delivery date for ANA? It has been quiet on the 787 front...meanwhile 8 748s have been delivered...
152 Stitch : #3 took to the skies last week for her first flight, so hopefully soon.
153 Post contains images PM : Boeing were saying 20-40 747s and 787s (combined) by year end but that looks highly optimistic now. But with #4 not having flown yet (we assume), can
154 United787 : Spoiled for sure! The "old" ones must be ratty now!
155 a380900 : I remember Boeing said they would deliver 10 787 in 2011 not too long ago. Does anyone remember when they said that? Was it official? Did they make a
156 Newark727 : Flightaware and a flickr source show one of the test 787s (BOE5 on flightaware) operating out of KSBD... any idea how long it will be there?
157 NYC777 : There are currently three ANA 787s being ready to be delivered. One, ZA116/LN31/JA805A is in Boeing/customer acceptance flights which should be comple
158 NYC777 : Ok I got information this morning saying that Boeing will now try to deliver 4 787s this month and at least three next month. All the details are in m
159 Post contains images Stitch : they can do it.
160 a380900 : This certainly looks like the program could be taking off, at long last. The first two deliveries were not enough to convince me that the program had
161 MEA-707 : It's already the 2nd half of december... given they typically need 2-3 weeks between first flight and delivery, Christmas slowing everything down a fe
162 NYC777 : Internally they are trying to deliver 4 more this year in addition to the 2 already delivered. Can they do it? Conventional wisdom and a few people i
163 Post contains links kanban : There seems to be trouble brewing with the wiring on one of the birds.. and APU replacements on the others.. Granted the APU's are not Boeing design o
164 Rheinbote : Seats are generally Boeing catalogue SFE items, except first class seats. This is intended to keep customization lead time and cost down. Customers m
165 ikramerica : While it's a comedy of errors, it still sounds like it jives with NYC777's news that 4 will be delivered soon. Even ANA expects them with the delay,
166 Post contains links WarpSpeed : Wiring Issues? APUs that won't start? Sounds more like a farce. These issues would be excusable if the program was on-time. However, Boeing and suppl
167 Ruscoe : On the contrary, the program is slowly going ahead , albeit slower than boeing or anyone else would like, anf seems to be picking up momentum, and no
168 Stitch : It will get sorted, but it has to be straining things with customers as they have to continuously jumble their plans due to continuous changes in del
169 ebj1248650 : I presume that means Y3 is going to be on the back burner for quite some time, or is Boeing doing initial customer surveys regarding what's needed so
170 Robt760 : Interesting, FA shows activity for several days out of KSBD (San Bernardino, CA) including a flight of nearly 6 hours that was completed today.
171 NYC777 : Now only three will be delivered in December.
172 Post contains links NYC777 : Looks like ZA104 (L/N 41, JA807A) is making its first flight today. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE104
173 blueflyer : Is ZA002 getting a new paint job? BOE2 flew CHS-FTW this morning and I think it parked in front of Leading Edge's hangar. Nearly spilled my coffee. I
174 NYC777 : FAA has certified the improved Trent 1000 (package B improvements) for use with the 787. Boeing can now start delivering the improved Trents to airlin
175 starrion : Some good news at last! I was starting to get concerned with the post about the APU's that we were seeing them coming off the rails again. Once the t
176 tdscanuck : Depends what you mean by "real world". They would have already done NAMS (nautical air miles) and F&R (function & reliability) testing before
177 metsfan1 : Any word yet on the GenEx F&R testing that is still waiting to be completed on the AI aircraft? Any updates on its first flight?
178 Rheinbote : What's up with LN7? AFAIK she was supposed to be the second or third aircraft to be delivered to ANA Did the FAA mandate the use of a Block 34 aircraf
179 MEA-707 : Many of the early 787s are parked engineless, LN7 is not worked on at the moment. It might take more then a year before they finish all the early fra
180 starrion : If you think about those early frames, some of them will have sat for three to four years from production to first flight. Wow. I wonder how many case
181 flightsimer : Is the first 787-9 still planned to be built around ~L/n 70 or has it slipped back further into the production lineup? Havent really heard much about
182 Dan23 : The last figure I've seen was LN139 for the first 787-9 (ZB001) but that may well have been revised since.
183 Stitch : LN139 is the last I heard, as well. Boeing's original plan was to have over 100 787-8s completed before they started on the first 787-9.
184 dynamicsguy : It was never 70 as far as I know, but the trend has been for the 787-9 to slip forward as the 787-8 production ramp slid backwards. Since then the Z2
185 Rheinbote : AFAIK it was LN88 early on in the program.
186 dynamicsguy : I'll admit that I've paid more attention since I've been working on the -9. I'm pretty sure it had been in the 200s. In other production news, the fi
187 NYC777 : ZA102 took off on a check flight but then returned about 30 minutes due to a maintenance issue. Also I put up another blog post about certification of
188 Rheinbote : I am certain that LN100 was the intermediate target for final assembly in 6 M-days. And I think (fainting memory) that LN100 was also the original in
189 scbriml : So, are we still at just two 787s delivered? Will Boeing get any more delivered in 2011?
190 Stitch : One was scheduled for delivery yesterday, but I am guessing it didn't. Two more were planned for the 30th, so we'll know for sure Sunday morning.[Edi
191 RobK : I can't confirm whether official handover took place for JA805A yesterday, but it's worth bearing in mind that all ANAs Boeing deliveries do not leav
192 starrion : This is starting to feel like Boeing is pulling an all-nighter to cram for a final exam. Are they going to have the ANA reps frantically signing docum
193 cmf : What is the reason for that?
194 justloveplanes : Pre-building that high amount of aircraft hurt a lot; though I am not sure Boeing had a choice.... Someone had to start generating revenue with all t
195 ba319-131 : - Are any of these in the International configuration or just domestic like the current two?
196 RobK : No idea x2.
197 tdscanuck : Except they've been cramming for about 3 years now... Tom.
198 Stitch : I believe they are international, as NH has stated they intend to use them for service to FRA starting in February.
199 col : Does anyone have an idea what the production rate of new build units is presently at? Then also do they have a schedule of rework planned monthly deli
200 NYC777 : Right now they're at 2.5/month slated to go to 3.5 sometime in the spring.
201 col : Thanks NYC777, do you know when these units can be delivered straight out of the box without re-work?
202 Stitch : They should be close right now as the subs are said to be working on parts that have no travel work / change incorporation necessary at the FAL.
203 col : Thanks Stitch, here's hoping for a first ride in 2012.
204 cmf : Is that for both FALs together or just the one in Everett?
205 Stitch : I believe that is just for PAE. CHS is capable of producing 2.5 planes per month now, but Boeing is staying below that at the moment to allow the wor
206 Post contains images RobK : Well guys, looks like 805 prefers its current home at Seattle and doesn't want to go to Japan.
207 Stitch : As in Boeing cannot get it ready for delivery, or that NH has taken delivery, but does not / is not ready to fly it home?
208 ba319-131 : It looks to me, might be wrong, that ANA have been treating the two birds they have to relatively light duties. The 1st scheduled intl services to PEK
209 Post contains images RobK : @ stitch I don't know. My post was based on there not being any filed flight plan yet. Usually they leave in the morning. Cawby reckons it's had 3 acc
210 cmf : I'm sure they will. But really, what is the importance of the wait passing the arbitrary change of year.
211 Post contains images Stitch : If nothing else, it's revenues booked against the 2011 Fiscal Year (as Boeing's FY runs 1/1 through 12/31). In the great scheme of things, it likely
212 dfwrevolution : Revenue recognition. If Boeing can deliver the aircraft this year, they can count the revenue toward their 2011 numbers.
213 scbriml : Just more evidence of the struggle Boeing is having getting 787s into the hands of their customers. It looks like they'll comfortably fail to deliver
214 Post contains images cmf : It will not change revenue in any material way, at best it will round up the billion mark. Not even delivering the three talked about before will. As
215 Post contains links Spacepope : 2 more flights scheduled today for ZA104 http://flightaware.com/live/flight/BOE104
216 ual747-600 : I just find it amazing that they continue to miss revised committments/dates this far into the program. It's like they still don't have a clue on wha
217 Stitch : Well we don't know why the plane was not delivered. And we're also assuming the plane wasn't delivered - delivery does not require departure from the
218 col : Over here the talk is delays on the Boeing side. PEK will not start until mid Jan, still not confirmed. FRA will start but only on certain days. I am
219 jet-lagged : As mentioned above . . . reportable revenue for CY2011 and meeting very public commitments. And if they can't get them out the door this year, this m
220 Daysleeper : It not just the public image that gets damaged, missing all these deadlines must be damaging to staff morale. In Interviews I’ve seen with Boeing s
221 cmf : Guidance for 2011 revenue is 68 - 70 BUSD. Three more or less 787 is rounding error in that. We do not know the reasons for the delay. It may be triv
222 kanban : I think some of the current problems may come from these planes having sat so long... yes they rolled them around to keep the tires from flat spotting
223 Daysleeper : I was under the impression the frames being delivered now, or those planned to be delivered were fresh of the line. The ones which have been in stora
224 Stitch : There is a mix of line numbers: 9, 31, 41 and 42. The latest frames under construction appear to be 46 (CHS) and 51-55 (PAE).[Edited 2011-12-30 07:10
225 Rheinbote : "Charleston is capable of producing 2.5 planes per month" does not refer to final assembly, but to pre-assembly and integration of mid-bodies and rea
226 RobK : JA804A has just filed a round-robin PAE-MWH-PAE.
227 Stitch : She might have just passed over my house on approach to KPAE (it is solid low clouds north of me, so I only had a quick glimpse before she disappeare
228 sunking737 : Boeing has been building planes for how long? They are not rookies by any means. Sometimes things happen that they can't control. They have delivered
229 Post contains images col : You would think they would get better with all that experience.. . Problem is that everyone wants the 787, airlines and the pax (me included), but th
230 Rheinbote : Engineering knowledge, more so tribal knowledge, has been volatile for more than two decades with very little action having been taken to counter or
231 United787 : So the 31st is here and we still don't know if any of the 3 787s have been delivered? We do know that they haven't left the USA.
232 tdscanuck : Yep. I kind of expect a press release from Boeing when it happens so this may be a "no news is bad news situation" but we can't tell for sure. Yes bu
233 kanban : A bigger problem because it affects all departments in the dumbing down of developed knowledge. Never met an MBA that didn't have all the answers on
234 Post contains images RobK : Well guys, I have some news on the pending ANA deliveries : JA804A : is broken. No further info. JA805A : was due to leave for HND at 0625 local on 29
235 ck8msp : Has ANA taken possession of any of these. Just because they are "broke" doesn't mean they havent taken delivery. Especially JA805A. Either way, I do a
236 Post contains images RobK : I don't have that info to hand at this juncture. Taking into account their planned leaving date ex PAE, I would say not. Another snippet of info whic
237 mattcawby : Source please. If it is broken why is no one working on it?
238 RobK : Unable to reveal source. No idea why no-one working on it, perhaps they will do early next week or maybe they fixed it on Thursday afternoon like you
239 Post contains images Stitch : What does "broken" mean? JA804A flew yesterday, so it worked for a bit. Ditto JA807A. Anyway, the program has been in perpetual failure mode since Sep
240 NYC777 : JA804A is ZA102 (L/N 9) which was used for F&R/ETOPS. There is evidence to support RobK's post that there's maintenance issues, what is surprising
241 PM : Thanks for this. There are three more domestic routes coming on line this month (we hope!) plus the long-promised Beijing and Frankfurt routes. It is
242 tdscanuck : I call BS on your source. If the planes really are broken there's no way there is no-one working on them. Boeing has been going balls-to-the-wall for
243 Post contains links kanban : the towards the end of following article are some interesting comments on the current plight of the JAL plane... seems there is a electro magnetic int
244 Stitch : I imagine that was what was holding up the certification of the GE propulsion system (since the issue is not present on the RR propulsion system) and
245 scbriml : There are some worrying comments in that article. Possibly more worryingly, even Randy Tinseth sounds significantly less bullish about the 787 ramp-u
246 BoeingVista : I have been saying that there was something wrong that is unique to the GENx for a couple of months now because as usual Boeings words do not match o
247 Stitch : Well it sounds like the fix is already in place, so no program delay, just per frame delay to apply the fix.
248 Post contains images BoeingVista : Well, no. Lightening test will require rerunning + documenting then approx 150hrs of F+R will take time then final documentation will need to be appr
249 PM : It's not quite that bad. They did deliver one in October.
250 JerseyFlyer : I thought the pylons were common to both engines?
251 BoeingVista : Fair enough, I thought that they had delivered 2 in September but one was in fact delivered in October. That was the original plan but I think what w
252 tdscanuck : Why would you rerun F&R for a lightning fix? It changes neither functionality nor reliability of the aircraft. To my knowledge, none of the 787's
253 BoeingVista : You wouldn't, F+R still needs to be run rather than rerun. But as the FAA requires F+R to be run on a production standard GE aircraft and clearly a p
254 tdscanuck : They did a bunch on ZA006 already...they could be required to rerun that in theory if there was any technical basis to do so. Lightning protection al
255 Post contains links scbriml : Looks like ANA's next two 787s will be delivered in early Jan, but possibly no further deliveries for the month? http://nyc787.blogspot.com/2011/12/u.
256 BoeingVista : Planetalking is wrong on this. All things 787 is reporting that these two aircraft will be 805A and 807A which will be delivered to ANA. The JAL GE p
257 scbriml : Yes, just a typo in the article.
258 petera380 : However these brand new B787's for ANA have gone Tech and so can't be delivered! Maybe there is a lemon law for planes like there is for cars!
259 RobK : I think you are exaggerating somewhat. They already have flyaway's planned for Wednesday so they are only minor issues (that is if the planes/issues
260 Post contains links Stitch : Evidently NH accepted delivery of JA805A on 30 December 2011, even though the plane won't depart PAE for another couple of days. Boeing Delivers 3rd 7
261 Post contains images scbriml : Did they? That thread seems to have disappeared and I can't find anything online that seems to support it.
262 Post contains links mffoda : Try this... http://www.airlinereporter.com/
263 scbriml : Thanks. Odd there's no word from any news source that I can find. Maybe we'll hear from Boeing or ANA tomorrow?
264 JoeCanuck : Indeed. Technically, the plane doesn't have to be delivered to be handed over to the customer. Once they sign the papers, they own it...regardless of
265 starrion : Back when I was in sales we called this "shipped to the dock". A favorite tactic on the last day of the quarter to bump the numbers up. So one bird g
266 Stitch : Boeing has not provided guidance for what other line numbers will be delivered in 787, not that no other line numbers will be delivered in January. S
267 ba319-131 : - I hope so, I expected a good number of those completed birds to be flying off to their new homes quickly, shame more problems keep arising.
268 Post contains links SA7700 : Hello ladies and gents, This thread will be locked for further contributions as it has become quite slow to load for some users. Please note that any
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