fpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 755 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 33943 times:
Quoting UA933 (Reply 2): Will repairs to the fuselage be more expensive or complex now that they are using composites compared to aluminum?
I think yes, but will not happen as often as aliminum.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1601 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 33795 times:
Quoting UA933 (Reply 2): Will repairs to the fuselage be more expensive or complex now that they are using composites compared to aluminum?
Depends . . .
If they decide to do a standard bolt-on repair, then the cost would be almost the same.
If they decide to do a "bonded" repair, then it could be more costly.
As far as this incident is concern, looks like the damage was to the engine cowl which would have been composite anyway whether the fuselage was aluminum or composite.
SKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1330 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 33756 times:
It's not like this aircraft is the biggest in the ANA fleet... It is only really slightly bigger than the 767!
When the A380 entered service there were a number of mishaps, which although avoidable were slightly more understandable due to the aircraft's size and dimensions.
Did ANA put its most inexperienced ground crew in charge of towing this expensive piece of gear around?
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319), OSL-LHR (321), LHR-ARN (320), ARN-VXO (S34), VXO-BMA (ATP), ARN-LHR (763), LHR-CPH (320), C
MadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10243 posts, RR: 40 Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 33569 times:
Article is dated 14 October.
I am sure the new ANA beauty is very fine by now and back to the skies.
I will have to SevenWaitSeven until 21 January to be on the flight from HND to FRA - first long haul for Princess Dreamliner.
It will not be the same aircraft as this HND-FRA will have the new "Staggered" Business Class seats for international operations. A two-cabin aircraft. The one they will fly to HKG is the domestic version - first delivered aircraft to ANA. "We Fly First".
The HND-FRA flight will be more like the true first international commercial flight as it is opened to all to fly on. The 26 October inaugural was by lottery, invitations, the press and a few rare outlandish priced Business seats for charity on Yahoo Japan and ebay (3 each).
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
United787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2346 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 32107 times:
This answers the question...what is ANA going to be doing with the 787 for a month before service...playing bumper cars...
Seriously, they need to stop toying with this thing and put the damn thing in service...they have had plenty of time to prepare for this plane...for crying out loud, the 748F went directly into service...rant over...
jetblast From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 1198 posts, RR: 11 Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 31656 times:
Quoting United787 (Reply 7): for crying out loud, the 748F went directly into service...rant over...
Some slight differences, you may note the 748F is not an entirely new design while the 787 has some quirks about it. The freighter is also not carrying passengers...
SKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1330 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 31556 times:
Quoting United787 (Reply 7): Seriously, they need to stop toying with this thing and put the damn thing in service...they have had plenty of time to prepare for this plane...for crying out loud, the 748F went directly into service...rant over...
Pretty unfair comparison imho.
The 787 is a brand new aircraft with completely new systems and an all new flightdeck. It is also made up of many composite parts so not only do flight crews and cabin crew need to get used to it but also engineers and other maintenance staff.
The 748F has the exact same flight deck as the 747-400, many of the same systems with the main differences being in the wings, engines and the fuselage lengthening. Probably explains why the 748i hasn't sold very well as it isn't much of an upgauge on the 744. I am suprised the 748 1980s flight deck has not been replaced by a more modern 787/777 style full glass cockpit.
Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319), OSL-LHR (321), LHR-ARN (320), ARN-VXO (S34), VXO-BMA (ATP), ARN-LHR (763), LHR-CPH (320), C
dfwrevolution From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 30190 times:
Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 10): The 748F has the exact same flight deck as the 747-400, many of the same systems with the main differences being in the wings, engines and the fuselage lengthening. Probably explains why the 748i hasn't sold very well as it isn't much of an upgauge on the 744. I am suprised the 748 1980s flight deck has not been replaced by a more modern 787/777 style full glass cockpit.
andytb77 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 26 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 28964 times:
So will the damage to the engine cowl cause a performance penalty in the laminar flow? Remember the discussions on how Boeing will require the engines to all be white so as not to disturb the laminar flow. You would think that any type of surface damage would hinder performance, albeit slight.
United787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2346 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 25446 times:
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1601 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 24736 times:
Quoting Navigator (Reply 9): Can you do a "standard" bolt-on repair on a composite structure on a 787?
For the 787 fuselage. The composite is a laminate type. Small damage to the skin (like a hole) can be covered with an aluminum sheet (or composite sheet) bolted on with fasteners (and sealant/adhesivve).
If the damage include the stringer and shear ties, then the repair may be a little more complicated.
I think there was a presentation floating out there to show how they were planning to do it.
474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 10 Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 24662 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 4): If they decide to do a standard bolt-on repair, then the cost would be almost the same.
If they decide to do a "bonded" repair, then it could be more costly.
I think you ill find just the opposite!
Bonded repairs are cheaper!
The fasteners used in a bolt-on repair being the most costly item!
A bonded repair may take longer, because of cure time.
Quoting Navigator (Reply 9): Can you do a "standard" bolt-on repair on a composite structure on a 787?
amccann From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 24305 times:
Quoting Navigator (Reply 9): Can you do a "standard" bolt-on repair on a composite structure on a 787?
Composites are not my specialty, but with the limited 787 structural knowledge I have, you can not use a bolt on repair on the 787. A few of the critical design features of the 787 are large single piece fuselage sections and integral (co-bonded) fuselage stringers, eliminating tens of skin joints and thousands of fasteners and therefore reducing weight and drag. Without bolt holes already in the fuselage (to join fuselage sections and stringers) to perform a bolt on repair on the 787 would require bolt holes to be drilled and drilling composites is a BIG problem. Drilling cured composites can de-laminate layers or fray fibers resulting in significant strength loss around the bolt hole.
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. - Ronald Reagan
TheSonntag From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 3347 posts, RR: 30 Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 24305 times:
This has probably not been tested in Boeing-training. So better test it before the inaugural service. After all, these things happen. No big deal if you ask me.
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 23039 times:
Quoting United787 (Reply 7): Seriously, they need to stop toying with this thing and put the damn thing in service...they have had plenty of time to prepare for this plane...for crying out loud, the 748F went directly into service...rant over...
ANA has auctioned seats for the inaugural 787 flight...would you want to go forward with that plan without *two* service-ready aircraft in case one goes tech?
Quoting Navigator (Reply 9):
Can you do a "standard" bolt-on repair on a composite structure on a 787?
Yes.
Quoting amccann (Reply 16): Composites are not my specialty, but with the limited 787 structural knowledge I have, you can not use a bolt on repair on the 787.
You can.
Quoting amccann (Reply 16): Without bolt holes already in the fuselage (to join fuselage sections and stringers) to perform a bolt on repair on the 787 would require bolt holes to be drilled and drilling composites is a BIG problem.
It's not that big deal...the OEM's do it all the time during initial build and all repair shops know how to do it because you have to do it to maintain many of today's components (nacelles, control surfaces, flap fairings, etc.).
707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 537 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 22580 times:
It's clear from this thread that the 787 will be under tremendous scrutiny. No surprise there. We are talking about composites and repairs when it was only an an engine cowling getting scraped. I wonder how many of us half-expected the second paragraph in the story to begin, "Sadly, the aircraft will be a write-off ... "
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1601 posts, RR: 4 Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 22476 times:
Quoting amccann (Reply 16): Drilling cured composites can de-laminate layers or fray fibers resulting in significant strength loss around the bolt hole.
True. You need a sharp bit when drilling in CFRP. And that bit won't stay sharp for long.
On the other hand, you don't need to de-bur every single hole in the CFRP because you don't have to worry about crack propragation.
cmf From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 2485 posts, RR: 35 Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 21877 times:
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 18): ANA has auctioned seats for the inaugural 787 flight...would you want to go forward with that plan without *two* service-ready aircraft in case one goes tech?
SQ did. Had many more seats sold too
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
yellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5171 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 19779 times:
come on you guys....ANA is really testing this thing including Boeings guarantees on ramp rash etc
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
Daleaholic From UK - England, joined Oct 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 15 Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17966 times:
Plenty of factors could've caused this incident. Just one of those things which happens from time to time at an airport, it's just unfortunate that on this day it was the 787! Sounds like the damage is merely cosmetic, nothing to worry about!
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
FlyingHollander From Netherlands, joined Jul 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17965 times:
Is it just me or have there been a lot of these type of incidents lately? It seems to me that people are handling these very expensive machines with little care.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
25 lightsaber: What's the fuss, from the OP link: "Everything was fine. There was only some surface damage, and the aircraft was back in operation on schedule," said
26 srbmod: Thankfully in this case, it was an engine inlet cowling that suffered surface damage. This sort of thing is probably the most common thing that happen
27 simpilot459: Can't be that big since there are thousands of drilled holes throughout the 787. They don't glue those fuselage sections together.
28 Navigator: This is what I learnt before about the composite structure on the 787. One of the major problems with using composite was how to do repairs without h
29 MadameConcorde: 3 Business seats were auctioned off on Yahoo Japan for Japanese residents only. 3 Business seats were auctioned off on eBay open to bidders worldwide
30 tdscanuck: It's not that big a deal...we've had carbon composites in aerostructures (mostly nacelles, flight controls, and fairings) for decades...the repair te
31 MadameConcorde: Any update on the damaged engine inlet cowl? Boeing 787 GEnx Engine – Inlet cowl, fan cowl, thrust reverser, centerbody and nozzle, engine integrati
32 randomstriker: From: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/ai...tll-polish-out---ana-bumps-fi.html They probably had to use a scanning electron microscope to generate th
33 bikerthai: LOL. And we all are debating the merit of composite repair. Almost like having a pimple on prom night. Everyone will look for it now. bikerthai
34 747400sp: Looks like some, ANA ground crew man or woman, should be fired!
35 brons2: Everyone gets sad when they get their first scratch on their new car...err plane.
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