KarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3094 posts, RR: 10 Posted (2 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 8428 times:
It was not my desire to dredge up this topic once more on A-Net as others have already covered the topic in the past. In light of new evidence brought forward by a lawyer who is working on behalf of the families I felt it was important information for us within A-Net to be aware of.
Courtesy: The Buffalo News
Emails Reveal Bosses' Doubts About Renslow - Flight 3407
"The lawsuits against Colgan, a regional carrier, and Continental are based in part on the contention that Colgan did not adopt adequate safety programs and that it also failed to sufficiently train its flight crews.
Russ thinks the emails prove that even Colgan had doubts about Renslow's abilities, but nevertheless cleared him to fly the plane."
"We're now able to prove what we've always suspected," said Hugh M. Russ III, a lawyer for several families. "Facing financial difficulties, Colgan chose profit over safety."
Lawyer: Emails Confirm NY Crash Pilot Shortcomings
"A lawyer for families suing over the deadly 2009 crash of a plane into a house near Buffalo, N.Y., says newly released emails show the flight's operator, Colgan Air, doubted its pilot's ability to fly the plane six months before it crashed.
Despite misgivings, Capt. Marvin Renslow was allowed to fly the Q400 plane one month after Colgan managers exchanged emails showing he failed to make a list of pilots to be promoted from a smaller Saab plane, attorney Hugh Russ III said Friday."
apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 3 days ago) and read 8320 times:
A lot has been talked about the Seniority system in aviation, and how at most airlines this is the only factor determining who upgrades. The thing that worries me about this is that Captain Renslow upgraded when flight management didn't feel he was ready. Now I don't know all the facts here, but if the reason he was able to upgrade was that he was senior enough to hold Captain, this is one big flaw with the Seniority system. The problem though is if you take that away, you have a lot of butt kissing of chief pilots, and people pushing boundaries further than they should to look good in the eyes of management. That isn't necessarily a safe thing either.
All in all, Seniority is probably safer. But what worries me is at my carrier I can name at least a couple of guys who are currently F/O's who I already know will not make good captains at all. Many of us dread the day their seniority allows them to upgrade. I don't mean to be harsh to these guys, but Stick and Rudder skills are one thing, but being a decision maker in charge of the airplane is totally different.
My heart goes out to the Colgan victims. I can't help but wonder though, if we need a law passed in aviation where the shareholders and management need to be held liable just as the company is. Because although the company takes a hit financially, the people in charge as well as the shareholders don't seem to lose out much. Despite ValuJet's problems 15 years ago, Lewis Jordan to my knowledge escaped with little financial harm, and is still doing quite well.
DualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 754 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8193 times:
All seniority does is allow you to bid for upgrade. You still have to pass the training and pass the checkride. When people fail they either get retrained or sent back to their old position or sometimes fired. The failure here wasn't seniority. It was the total failure of safety culture and cheapest training.
azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3888 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8128 times:
Exactly DualQual! Seniority gets you to training. One must EARN their upgrade by busting their butt in training and demonstrating the ability required. Good training programs will weed out the bad apples and the bas training programs will pass them via desperation and laziness.
One bright spot at Colgan is that since Pinnacle Corp. acquired Mesaba last year MANY mgmt and training department personnel have been installed at Colgan from Mesaba. They've been working feverishly to fix the problems and put that organization on the right track. They're estimating spring 2012 for the Mesaba name to replace Colgan.
Highflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 672 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3877 times:
I don't want to disrespect the deceased Captain Marvin Renslow. Within crash/burn literature there is a poignant sometimes quoted aviation cliche that a pilot uses the sum total of his training and abilities in his last moments of life. Having said that, Captain Renslow, either too clever for his own good in believing it was tailplane icing (hence pulling back and aggravating the stall) or acting out in reflex panic, should never have been in the left seat of that Q400. There are some people regardless of flight training that remain unfit for command of an aircraft.
Despite their internal qualms about Marvin Renslow, could Colgan have upgraded him because he was one of the pilots on the seniority list that never complained, always took the extra flight and never cancelled because of weather or a mechanical issue? Did he fly under the radar because he was a go-along-with-anything non-confrontational personality, the short guy in glasses that wouldn't stand out in a pilot uniform or stacking boxes in a Land o' Lakes, Florida Publix supermarket?
Those are the kind of questions that should be examined.
flyby519 From United States of America, joined exactly 7 years ago today! , 1124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3759 times:
It would be interesting to see what happened to the rest of the names on that list of pilots who were trying to transition from the Saab to the Q but failed training. I wonder if they were given a free pass through and are now on the line flying a plane they shouldnt be...
These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
b727fa From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3573 times:
The other questions is, "Which upgrade" did he have difficulty with?
Had he been a capt on the SAAB? >>The email says "Yes, you are correct," one of the two supervisors responds in an email. "Rensloe had a problem upgrading.">"Anyone that does not meet the mins [minimum standards] and had problems in training is not ready to handle the Q," another supervisor says in a later email exchange.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 2 days ago) and read 2227 times:
Quoting RamblinMan (Reply 10):
Yeah, throw the investors in jail every time a plane crashes. That'll help.
I wasn't suggesting that. What I was suggesting is when these families settle, some of the money should come out of Managements pockets. If the things that led to the crash were due to pressures from shareholders, they should bear some financial responsibility as well. Watch how quickly things change for safety when you actually hit management in their own pockets, rather than just the companies (Which should also be hit as well)