LAXintl From United States of America, joined exactly 13 years ago today! , 22059 posts, RR: 51 Posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5959 times:
Transport Workers Union is slated to petition NMB to call a representation election in which the union hopes to represent the 650 flight attendants at Virgin America.
As part of its drive to unionize Federal rules require 35% of eligible employees sign cards singifiyng they want elections.
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12562 posts, RR: 64 Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5683 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter): Transport Workers Union is slated to petition NMB to call a representation election in which the union hopes to represent the 650 flight attendants at Virgin America.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5656 times:
Unions? If those employees are smart they stay far, far away from unions. Unions are something from the past, tried and failed. I am happy that in my kind of work Unions do not exist.
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
Atlwest1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1046 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5555 times:
Quoting kl911 (Reply 3): Unions? If those employees are smart they stay far, far away from unions. Unions are something from the past, tried and failed. I am happy that in my kind of work Unions do not exist.
In this biz unions are definitely necessary to prevent employee misuse. Where the problem comes is that some unions have a bloated sense of reality especially during hard economic times such as now. There are examples of union infused workplaces with good cohesive relationships with management. Southwest is one of those places.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
ooer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1395 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5352 times:
Good luck to the Virgin f/a's, the best thing they can do is vote in favor of the Transport Workers Union and have a say in their workplace. Virgin America is a San Francisco based airline, the average flight attendant earns about $30,000 per year.
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12562 posts, RR: 64 Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5346 times:
Quoting ooer (Reply 5): Virgin America is a San Francisco based airline, the average flight attendant earns about $30,000 per year.
Sound like a fair wage?
Define "fair".
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
rduddji From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1315 posts, RR: 3 Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5254 times:
Quoting ooer (Reply 5): Good luck to the Virgin f/a's, the best thing they can do is vote in favor of the Transport Workers Union and have a say in their workplace. Virgin America is a San Francisco based airline, the average flight attendant earns about $30,000 per year.
Sound like a fair wage?
Yeah, they should pay TWU $40 a week to make their jobs worse...that will surely help their wages...FAIL.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
In laymans term basically, when your able to afford the price of food gas and ability to live with out any government assistance. 30k a year in the bay area is not quote un quote fair. Paying a georgia wage in a place that requires twice that isnt fair. Frankly Id love to see wages reflect where one is based. And percentage pay rate increases.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co. or Airt
WNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1317 posts, RR: 9 Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5252 times:
Quoting ripcordd (Reply 1):
They should run far far away from TWU.....
Quoting rduddji (Reply 7): Yeah, they should pay TWU $40 a week to make their jobs worse...that will surely help their wages...FAIL.
All WN FA's are TWU represented and we have the best contract in the industry. We have the shortest duty-day and highest pay/productivity of any US carrier. For WN FA's TWU aint too shabby....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
m11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1207 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5170 times:
Every airline employee needs a union. In this fast paced, volatile, high profile industry so many things can happen and go wrong. We need to be protected. A union is like insurance for your job. You have car insurance, homeowners insure/renters insurance. Why wouldn't you have insurance for your job?
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15733 posts, RR: 48 Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5137 times:
I'd bet a dollar this is spearheaded by legacy labor trying to torpedo the competition.
EA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 12562 posts, RR: 64 Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4907 times:
Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 8): Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 6):
Define "fair".
In laymans term basically, when your able to afford the price of food gas and ability to live with out any government assistance.
So then grocery baggers who make minimum wage, or car wash attendants, etc - they are all paid unfairly in your estimation?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
briguy1974 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4857 times:
This is one of those discussions with very little gray area. You feel one way or the other. As one of those who is a believer that in this industry a union is not neccary and quite often detrimental. Unions were formed to protect workers in very hazardous jobs to protect them from unsafe employers. The airline industry is over regulated and employees are protected by OSHA and the DOT and other state agencies.
I would look at the response from WNCrew
All WN FA's are TWU represented and we have the best contract in the industry. We have the shortest duty-day and highest pay/productivity of any US carrier. For WN FA's TWU aint too shabby....
translation...we work the least for the most money = this means Southwest has to employ more FA's than other airlines and pay them more than anyone else. It is not a mystery to anyone on this site that Southwest cost continue to rise and continue to effect the bottom line. Beyond fuel cost Southwest biggest issue is its increasing labor cost.
The idea of unions, espeacially in the airline industry has more to do with I want more pay for less work and not what unions are really meant to be. I do not want to see another airline fail under the weight of union contracts that continue to drag on airlines bottom line.
flyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1015 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4847 times:
Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 4): In this biz unions are definitely necessary to prevent employee misuse.
That's quite a blanket statement! I work in the airline industry and certainly don't feel that way. I know plenty of others that don't feel that way.
Quoting ooer (Reply 5): Good luck to the Virgin f/a's, the best thing they can do is vote in favor of the Transport Workers Union and have a say in their workplace. Virgin America is a San Francisco based airline, the average flight attendant earns about $30,000 per year.
Sound like a fair wage?
Um...no one told them to apply. If that was the wage that Virgin America was offering when they were hired, then I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but don't complain about it or cry to a union rep handing you a card to fill out that you are under paid.
Quoting Atlwest1 (Reply 8): In laymans term basically, when your able to afford the price of food gas and ability to live with out any government assistance. 30k a year in the bay area is not quote un quote fair. Paying a georgia wage in a place that requires twice that isnt fair. Frankly Id love to see wages reflect where one is based. And percentage pay rate increases.
Again..don't criticize the wage when Virgin America made it very clear what it was up front.
Quoting m11stephen (Reply 10): Every airline employee needs a union. In this fast paced, volatile, high profile industry so many things can happen and go wrong. We need to be protected. A union is like insurance for your job. You have car insurance, homeowners insure/renters insurance. Why wouldn't you have insurance for your job?
Lucikly for airlines...when and if a contract is negotiated...everything becomes negotiable. Recently, some people I know up in Canada (ramp agents) all signed up for the union. When it came time to negotiate, the employees wound up making no more money, now have to pay for their own uniforms, don't get any additional benefits, but get to pay $ every paycheck to be represented. True story...this occured in YEG just this spring.
Long story short - employees don't need unions. Sure some employers arent the most genuine people out there, but based on your blanket statement above, why isn't EVERY corporation in America and Canada unionized? Or are just the airlines the only fast paced, volatile, high profile industry that has soooo many things happening that can go wrong?
JPuentes From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 48 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days ago) and read 4350 times:
Unions are a way for lazy people to get paid the same as the hard working people. Individual people should be more productive and seek out raises.
At least that is my opinion
Can I get a list of things that Unions Actually do for their "Customers"
Newark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1175 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 2 days ago) and read 4291 times:
Quoting briguy1974 (Reply 13): The idea of unions, espeacially in the airline industry has more to do with I want more pay for less work and not what unions are really meant to be. I do not want to see another airline fail under the weight of union contracts that continue to drag on airlines bottom line.
Why on earth is what unions are "meant to be" in one poster's estimation important? They exist as they do right now, they provide employees with some manner of service (beneficial or not,) and it's up to VX employees to decide whether they want it. And if the airline's bottom line is so overwhelmingly important to you, where does that interest stop?
Furthermore, what exactly about the system we live in has changed so drastically that private sector unions were "needed" in the past but not today? It's not as if the Marxist revolution has taken place and the employer-employee relationship or profit motive is radically different.
ExL10Mktg From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 32 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3889 times:
Quoting WNCrew (Reply 17): Just to clarify, FA's are NOT protected by OSHA.
AFIK, the Occupational Safety and Health Act, as a federal law, covers every industry and every worker in the US unless they are self-employed. Why would the airline industry and F/As be exempt? Did the TWU tell you that at election time....... I'm sure they wouldn't either just make stuff up or grossly exaggerate something just to get your vote, particularly as management is forbidden by Federal law from countering any argument they make while attempting to organize.
boilerla From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 261 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3726 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
And they're losing more money than any other carrier in the US--how is voting a union in going to improve that?
Has nothing to do with unions. They still can't fly profitably; their CASM excluding fuel is pretty bad and has been creeping up even without unions. Yet they continue to take delivery of shiny new planes, spend enough money on marketing to buy a superbowl commercial, and enter the fiercest, most competitive cities without any business plan to make a profit. That sounds like the AA model of flying. And like AA they need to figure out why it costs them so much more than the legacies and WN, both who have unionized workforces.
cmf From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 2485 posts, RR: 35 Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3721 times:
Quoting kl911 (Reply 3): Unions? If those employees are smart they stay far, far away from unions. Unions are something from the past, tried and failed.
With good management there is no need for unions. Sadly the need for them seems to pretty much follow how much opposition there are to them.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
WN is also have a proven airline that was making a profit year after year. VX is still getting it's feet wet. My wife is with VX and I am perfectly happy with her not being with a union.
I myself was with a union at my previous airline and all they did was screw me!
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15733 posts, RR: 48 Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3629 times:
Quoting boilerla (Reply 21): They still can't fly profitably; their CASM excluding fuel is pretty bad and has been creeping up even without unions
Right, so how is a union going to improve anything, other than for VX' competitors?
Quoting cmf (Reply 22): With good management there is no need for unions
Perhaps, but the very powerful incentive to unionize a workforce is always there, whether Lorenzo is running the show or Jesus Himself.
E pur si muove -Galileo
25 Atlwest1: Yall are right im wrong my opinion doesn't matter. However in reality as I said unions have a place IF they maintain there focus of providing a voice
26 jetblast: Wooh man, mention the word 'union' in this forum and people go ballistic. Interesting that one can tell who is in a union and who is not....
27 cmf: I think your actual success rate is lower than you think.
28 nwaesc: ^Worth repeating^ Workplace safety and oversight/enforcement for air crews falls to the FAA.
29 DeltaMD90: I think the problem is people are being too black/white. Pro-union guys have trouble denying that a lot of AA's problems are union, and anti-union gu
30 anstar: Certainly more than BA or VS cabin crew earn here in the UK so I'd say it is fair given the higher cost of living in London.
31 contrails15: Could be worse, the IAM could be knocking at the door. They tried twice with us and are in the process of going for a third time. I personally have en
32 luvfa: Great for VX! Here at SWA we have a great contract and yes it is true that we have great pay and work rules! However, compare that to our productivity
33 lightsaber: I've read all the posts. Will the union cooporate as with WN? (Yes, that takes the company working with the union too...). Some of the best technicia
34 N1120A: Actually, that is not really the translation. WN has the most productive workforce of any airline, in large part because of the good relationship bet
35 hp2us: I was a FA at Vx, my salary was no where near 30k a year. Try 24K on the high side.
36 m11stephen: Yeah that's what I was thinking. 30K sounded way too high. I think that VX F/As start out at $18 a flight hour. The average F/A will fly 1,000 hours
37 ooer: Because the FAA has authority over airlines, which is the F/A's place of work. So the FAA has jurisdiction over this, not OSHA.
38 PI767: I have a friend who is a flight attendant at American Eagle. She has researched the major airlines and will NOT apply at Virgin America becase of Virg
39 EA CO AS: Jesus, how did you type with those pom-poms in your hand?
40 LAXintl: I’ll let you guys in on a secret about majority of Virgin companies. Virtually none pay top dollars to employees, however they virtually always have
41 hp2us: Exactly, and it was a well known fact at Vx ITM's were not supposed to stay longer than 5 years. I don't regret working there, I saw alot and was ver
42 TR1: What is an ITM at Virgin America? Did the company actively encourage people to leave as they approach five years of employment? Were any incentives o
43 hp2us: Itm is an Inflight Team Member. They're are no incentives to leave after 5 years, they just felt your time was up. I never heard it personally but fr
44 EA CO AS: So what are unfair and inequitable about their current work rules? What do "fair and equitable" ones look like? Be specific.
45 DeltaMD90: But don't they know what they are getting into when they look into getting hired? Like this example: Better to research and look for a better company
46 hp2us: When people know nothing about an industry, other than what they read in articles and blogs, they tend to gravitate towards what the positives that a
47 skyguyB727: Who pays $160 a month ($40 x 4 weeks) in union dues? Companies are not always honest during the hiring process. I once worked for an airline that sho
48 commavia: This would certainly impact their cost structure - and not in a good way. What I find so remarkable about all of the above clearly negative stories ab
49 DeltaMD90: That's why you read the fine print. Surely they need to have all that in writing somewhere along the line! I can see unionization if the airline is m
50 Flighty: Unions always try to sell their crockery to the successful non-unionized business participants. And it is always funny to watch.
51 skyguyB727: They didn't. The interviewer was very crafty. He showed me a sheet listing all the benefits, but he wouldn't let me keep it. Obviously he didn't, bec
52 EA CO AS: You can always leave for greener pastures if they change in a way that's not to your liking. Besides, even under a CBA your employment isn't guarante
53 PlanesNTrains: We do that with our employees as well. It's the law. We can terminate them at will and they can leave at any time - no contract. I am required to sha
54 hp2us: Right, however, like I said in my previous post, some of the terminations by the company were unfounded, and others were needed. Its hard when you de
55 LAXintl: The NMB has accepted the TWU signature cards and has established a 3-week voting period commencing November 29 to December 20th. Story: http://www.biz
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