Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Easa Certified The 787-8 For Max PAX Zero?  
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1580 posts, RR: 3
Posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 13373 times:

Reading through the 787-8 type certification document on EASA site and came across this gem

18. Minimum Flight Crew
Two (2): Pilot and co-pilot

19. Maximum Seating Capacity
Zero passengers

Doesn't seem right LOL, but there it is in black and white on page 12 of the official certification document!

http://easa.europa.eu/certification/...28IM%29_Boeing_787-01-26082011.pdf


BV
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 66
Reply 1, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 13122 times:

This isn't unusual. Passengers get added as specific airlines' airplanes are certified. Since each airline's seating configuration is unique, it saves undoing a generic interior Cert on the TCDS to incorporate the airline interior.


Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
User currently offlinemarky From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12835 times:

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 1):
Passengers get added as specific airlines' airplanes are certified

Not true at all. The maximum passengers on the TCDS is the absolute maximum that can be carried by the aircraft, based on the number of exits and emergency evacuation tests carried out as part of the certification process. It has nothing to do with specific airline's seating configurations.


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4698 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12768 times:

As far as I know the only 748 certified is the freight version, so what would make sense to have a maximum of 0 pax. I assume that when the pax version is certified the type certificate will be changed to reflect this.


For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1580 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12713 times:

Quoting JRadier (Reply 3):
As far as I know the only 748 certified is the freight version, so what would make sense to have a maximum of 0 pax. I assume that when the pax version is certified the type certificate will be changed to reflect this.

Yah, but we are talking about a 787 here which is a passenger plane and should be certified to carry up to 250 PAX.

This is a bit of a mystery.

[Edited 2011-10-25 09:12:40]


BV
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13139 posts, RR: 100
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12630 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting marky (Reply 2):
Not true at all. The maximum passengers on the TCDS is the absolute maximum that can be carried by the aircraft, based on the number of exits and emergency evacuation tests carried out as part of the certification process. It has nothing to do with specific airline's seating configurations.

That was my impression (note, I do not do passenger specific testing, so that is out of my expertise). So what is up with this? Have every passenger pass the battery of flight test training?   

You know:
1. Egress (includes lights out, door opening, slide deployment, etc.)
2. Fire extenguisher (includes fire identification and response)
3. Survival (in case the plane goes down somewhere nasty)
4. Oxygen (with added oxygen packs required of experimental aircraft)
5. Communication (basically, knowning the NATO alphabet, radio operation/call signs, and mostly when to shut up).


I think we could exclude high altutude training for the passengers.  

How is this ammended? I notice a bypass to the oil cooler is required before a new certification will be issued. Is that the hold up? Note: I'm asking and I have zero inside knowledge.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1580 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12487 times:

Looked up the FAA TCDS and it has PAX numbers included

Quote:
I. 787-8 (cont’d)
Maximum Passengers: The maximum number of passengers approved for emergency evacuation is:
381with four pairs of exits in an (A, A, A, A) exit arrangement,
355 with four pairs of exits in a (C, A, A, A) exit arrangement,
330 with four pairs of exits in an (A, A, C, A) exit arrangement, and
300 with four pairs of exits in a (C, A, C, A) exit arrangement.
Maximum passenger capacity may be further limited by Environmental Control System ventilation
per occupant requirement defined in 25.831(a).


So whats going on in Europe, maybe EASA didn't accept Boeing's evacuation simulation?

EASA A330 type certification document includes PAX numbers btw so its not just something that is not included on European certification documents, something strange is going on here.

[Edited 2011-10-25 09:45:05]


BV
User currently online747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2143 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12402 times:

Before jumping to conclusions :

In the FAA 787 TCDS, Original , issue date 8-26-2011 also "0" passengers is mentioned.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...0eadd/$FILE/T00021SE%20Rev%200.pdf

In the FAA 787 TCDS, revision 1, issue date 9-22-2011 this is corrected (vertical line left of corrected text)
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...ad874/$FILE/T00021SE%20Rev%201.pdf

The EASA 787 TCDS has issue date 8-26-2011 and is already outdated.

[Edited 2011-10-25 09:52:03]


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1580 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12338 times:

Quoting 747classic (Reply 7):
Before jumping to conclusions :

In the FAA 787 TCDS, Original , issue date 8-26-2011 also "0" passengers is mentioned.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...0eadd/$FILE/T00021SE%20Rev%200.pdf

In the FAA 787 TCDS, revision 1, issue date 9-22-2011 this is corrected (vertical line left of corrected text)
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...ad874/$FILE/T00021SE%20Rev%201.pdf

The EASA 787 TCDS has issue date 8-26-2011 and is already outdated.

Ok, different revisions fair point. Guess we'll have to wait for EASA to publish revision 1 to see if it is corrected / ammended



BV
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4698 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12212 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 4):

Yah, but we are talking about a 787 here which is a passenger plane and should be certified to carry up to 250 PAX.

Doh! I'll shut up now!  



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 557 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10964 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 4):

According to Boeing back in 2009 or 2010, they said they would be using the 767-300ER's max seating certificate for the 787-8, so really, it should be 350 seats, not 250. This is the reason we never saw a max passenger evacuation test performed for the plane.



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13139 posts, RR: 100
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10752 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting 747classic (Reply 7):
The EASA 787 TCDS has issue date 8-26-2011 and is already outdated.

Thank you. Now Someone tell me who is going to fly a 788 with 381 seats!?!   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 9887 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
Thank you. Now Someone tell me who is going to fly a 788 with 381 seats!?!

NK  Wow!     



These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7788 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11):
Thank you. Now Someone tell me who is going to fly a 788 with 381 seats!?!

Go ask Mr. O'Leary.   


User currently offlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1580 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

Quoting 747classic (Reply 7):
Before jumping to conclusions :

In the FAA 787 TCDS, Original , issue date 8-26-2011 also "0" passengers is mentioned.

But hang on a minute, so Boeing did initially certifiy the 787 with the FAA and EASA for 0 PAX, its not a typo...

Is this normal for type certification or were they up against the end of Q3 and needed it done?



BV
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 557 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3256 times:

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 14):

could it have anything to do with the fact that the 787 is using the 767's max seating certificate?



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31010 posts, RR: 86
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3198 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 15):
Could it have anything to do with the fact that the 787 is using the 767's max seating certificate?

I would expect that, at worst, Boeing would need to run a computer simulation showing that X number of people can evacuate within the 90 second period through four available doors. And I would expect that can't take too much time to program and run.

The cruise ship industry uses these simulations to show how quickly they can evacuate the vessel, so adapting it to an airplane should be pretty easy.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13139 posts, RR: 100
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3018 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 15):
could it have anything to do with the fact that the 787 is using the 767's max seating certificate?

Probably. Accepting that analysis is different than accepting all the new stuff for the 787.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
The cruise ship industry uses these simulations to show how quickly they can evacuate the vessel, so adapting it to an airplane should be pretty easy.

Simulations are already allowed/expected in aircraft. The only exceptions are if there is something 'new.' e.g.:
1. New height (777, A380)
2. Trying for a significant increase in passengers if the manned evacuation test didn't have signficant margin.
3. Narrower passageways (isles/doors or other obstruction)
4. Narrower seat pitch
5. Significantly longer distance to an exit
6. Missing an alternate exit (or significant shrinkage of alternate exit path)
7. New exit configuration (wider doors to have higher 'bandwidth', new slides, etc.)
8. Increased risk factor an exit would be blocked (BWB)
9. Untested lighting (concept)

I'm sure I missed something else... But otherwise the FAA/EASA want to avoid manned evacuation drills due to the risk.



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
SIA Says Airbus To Build The 787-9 For Them posted Wed Nov 8 2006 03:10:54 by Jimyvr
What's The Delivery Schedule For The 787? posted Sun Sep 25 2011 16:13:37 by avi8
Certification Tests For The 787? posted Tue Dec 15 2009 15:49:41 by Placekicker
Is This Special Delivery The Fix For The 787? posted Tue Aug 18 2009 18:46:54 by Tommyy
Possibility Of Another Delay For The 787 (ATW) posted Fri Sep 5 2008 12:28:17 by Aircellist
Boeing Aero: Preparing For The 787-8 posted Sat Aug 2 2008 19:14:36 by Pmg1704
Good News For The 787 Program posted Wed Feb 13 2008 09:06:07 by EA772LR
Going Price For The 787 posted Sat Jan 19 2008 10:47:00 by EBJ1248650
Any Updates On Additional LCF's For The 787? posted Sat Dec 15 2007 09:55:18 by LimoJet
Clark: 787 Is Still In The Race For Emirates Order posted Fri Oct 12 2007 03:31:30 by EI321