OldAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3215 posts, RR: 66 Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11857 times:
This isn't unusual. Passengers get added as specific airlines' airplanes are certified. Since each airline's seating configuration is unique, it saves undoing a generic interior Cert on the TCDS to incorporate the airline interior.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
marky From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 198 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11570 times:
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 1): Passengers get added as specific airlines' airplanes are certified
Not true at all. The maximum passengers on the TCDS is the absolute maximum that can be carried by the aircraft, based on the number of exits and emergency evacuation tests carried out as part of the certification process. It has nothing to do with specific airline's seating configurations.
JRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4599 posts, RR: 51 Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11503 times:
As far as I know the only 748 certified is the freight version, so what would make sense to have a maximum of 0 pax. I assume that when the pax version is certified the type certificate will be changed to reflect this.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
BoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1090 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11448 times:
Quoting JRadier (Reply 3): As far as I know the only 748 certified is the freight version, so what would make sense to have a maximum of 0 pax. I assume that when the pax version is certified the type certificate will be changed to reflect this.
Yah, but we are talking about a 787 here which is a passenger plane and should be certified to carry up to 250 PAX.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10876 posts, RR: 100 Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11365 times:
Quoting marky (Reply 2): Not true at all. The maximum passengers on the TCDS is the absolute maximum that can be carried by the aircraft, based on the number of exits and emergency evacuation tests carried out as part of the certification process. It has nothing to do with specific airline's seating configurations.
That was my impression (note, I do not do passenger specific testing, so that is out of my expertise). So what is up with this? Have every passenger pass the battery of flight test training?
You know:
1. Egress (includes lights out, door opening, slide deployment, etc.)
2. Fire extenguisher (includes fire identification and response)
3. Survival (in case the plane goes down somewhere nasty)
4. Oxygen (with added oxygen packs required of experimental aircraft)
5. Communication (basically, knowning the NATO alphabet, radio operation/call signs, and mostly when to shut up).
I think we could exclude high altutude training for the passengers.
How is this ammended? I notice a bypass to the oil cooler is required before a new certification will be issued. Is that the hold up? Note: I'm asking and I have zero inside knowledge.
BoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1090 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 11222 times:
Looked up the FAA TCDS and it has PAX numbers included
Quote: I. 787-8 (cont’d)
Maximum Passengers: The maximum number of passengers approved for emergency evacuation is:
381with four pairs of exits in an (A, A, A, A) exit arrangement,
355 with four pairs of exits in a (C, A, A, A) exit arrangement,
330 with four pairs of exits in an (A, A, C, A) exit arrangement, and
300 with four pairs of exits in a (C, A, C, A) exit arrangement.
Maximum passenger capacity may be further limited by Environmental Control System ventilation
per occupant requirement defined in 25.831(a).
So whats going on in Europe, maybe EASA didn't accept Boeing's evacuation simulation?
EASA A330 type certification document includes PAX numbers btw so its not just something that is not included on European certification documents, something strange is going on here.
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 428 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9699 times:
According to Boeing back in 2009 or 2010, they said they would be using the 767-300ER's max seating certificate for the 787-8, so really, it should be 350 seats, not 250. This is the reason we never saw a max passenger evacuation test performed for the plane.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10876 posts, RR: 100 Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9487 times:
Quoting 747classic (Reply 7): The EASA 787 TCDS has issue date 8-26-2011 and is already outdated.
Thank you. Now Someone tell me who is going to fly a 788 with 381 seats!?!
flyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 865 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8622 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11): Thank you. Now Someone tell me who is going to fly a 788 with 381 seats!?!
seabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 4287 posts, RR: 4 Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6523 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 11): Thank you. Now Someone tell me who is going to fly a 788 with 381 seats!?!
Go ask Mr. O'Leary.
Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
flightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 428 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1991 times:
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26944 posts, RR: 83 Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 1933 times:
Quoting flightsimer (Reply 15): Could it have anything to do with the fact that the 787 is using the 767's max seating certificate?
I would expect that, at worst, Boeing would need to run a computer simulation showing that X number of people can evacuate within the 90 second period through four available doors. And I would expect that can't take too much time to program and run.
The cruise ship industry uses these simulations to show how quickly they can evacuate the vessel, so adapting it to an airplane should be pretty easy.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10876 posts, RR: 100 Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1753 times:
Quoting flightsimer (Reply 15): could it have anything to do with the fact that the 787 is using the 767's max seating certificate?
Probably. Accepting that analysis is different than accepting all the new stuff for the 787.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 16): The cruise ship industry uses these simulations to show how quickly they can evacuate the vessel, so adapting it to an airplane should be pretty easy.
Simulations are already allowed/expected in aircraft. The only exceptions are if there is something 'new.' e.g.:
1. New height (777, A380)
2. Trying for a significant increase in passengers if the manned evacuation test didn't have signficant margin.
3. Narrower passageways (isles/doors or other obstruction)
4. Narrower seat pitch
5. Significantly longer distance to an exit
6. Missing an alternate exit (or significant shrinkage of alternate exit path)
7. New exit configuration (wider doors to have higher 'bandwidth', new slides, etc.)
8. Increased risk factor an exit would be blocked (BWB)
9. Untested lighting (concept)
I'm sure I missed something else... But otherwise the FAA/EASA want to avoid manned evacuation drills due to the risk.
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