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A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 1  
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 74571 times:

I felt we needed such a thread now that the prototype production of the A350 starts in earnest. I have made this first post free of debate just to get the thread started, for clarity of the process I have posted the assembly process here:

A350 fuselage production



Non French in France
254 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 74616 times:

The first post will be about signs of a delay, something I have wondered about since Flightblogger showed this piece about the Spirit section 15 delivery. This is the center section and the one you start with at the FAL:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...irst-spirit-a350-parts-to-hea.html

Now the other pieces of this center section have already been delivered to Airbus St Nazaire integration plant (the wingbox, the keel beam and the MLG bay) mid August, why are these panels delivered end October?

Here the panels on the CFRP and ALU (lower sections) frames in section 15:
Big version: Width: 500 Height: 281 File size: 101kb
A350 section 15


Before Spirit have put them together and wheeled them over to the Airbus plant nearby we are mid November. There these pieces will be mated with the center wingbox, the keel beam and the MLG well

(here those pieces shown in the frames of section 15 Smile
Big version: Width: 600 Height: 399 File size: 43kb
A350 center section details


and then the dark blue panels will be put on to form the famous side-of-body joint to the wingbox.

Now in the update that came today Ostrower confirms this means a delay to FAL, why? I don't want to blame Spirit but why have such pretty straight forward parts like the skin panels be late? Or is it the more intrinsic dark blue panels that are the cause of the delay, we know that A has been studying the side-of-body joint extra carefully even thought is it modeled after the A380 join.

Note:
This excellent article about the composite manufacture of section 15:

http://www.compositesworld.com/artic...350-xwb-update-smart-manufacturing

reveals that the chart in post 1 is a bit simplified, to my understanding the Spirit assembled section 15 (frames, floor grid, side and upper panels) is wheeled over to the Aerolia (Airbus) St Nazaire plant for mating with wingbox, keel-beam and MLG bay and then get stuffed with systems there (the first is for the structure test frame ie no systems). If the wheeling over happens later this year we indeed have a delay or Aerolia are very fast with the mating and shipping.

[Edited 2011-10-26 00:43:51]


Non French in France
User currently offlinedynamicsguy From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 851 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 74206 times:

To add another link: Horizontal stabiliser assembly begins

Quoting ferpe (Reply 1):
I don't want to blame Spirit but why have such pretty straight forward parts like the skin panels be late?

That's a pretty easy comment to make from the outside. Even "straight forward" assemblies have a great deal of design and analysis behind them, production to get right and a mountain of paperwork.


User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 607 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 74100 times:

The composites world article referenced in Reply 1 is indeed excellent, and makes clear that the "ribs and panels" approach should not necessarily be seen as second best compared to barrels (a la 787), as it has its own clear advantages.

It will be interesting to see how these two approaches work out in practice and whether one becomes the "standard" for future aircraft programmes as a result.


User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 73922 times:

Quoting dynamicsguy (Reply 2):
Even "straight forward" assemblies have a great deal of design and analysis behind them, production to get right and a mountain of paperwork.

Here you are right in the sense that section 15 is the most critical part of the airplane. The forces from the wings, the MLG and the tube all come together here. Now the rechecking of all these things before release of the drawings (models really in modern CAD) could be the reason, a late QA failure of a panel could also be the cause. Fact is, it seems the shipping of the Spirit parts are late compared to the rest of the section 15 components.

[Edited 2011-10-26 04:13:15]


Non French in France
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 29680 posts, RR: 84
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 73672 times:
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I would think we'd of heard of any QA failures in a panel. Spirit is the only 787 sub with their act together, so I'm inclined to follow dynamicsguy line of thought that Airbus was tweaking the design for this section and that pushed back fabrication. Airbus have stated that they had to make changes to the electrical structure network for lightning and radio frequency interference protection and that was part of what's pushed the original schedule back about six months.

[Edited 2011-10-26 05:04:19]

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 73576 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Airbus have stated that they had to make changes to the electrical structure network for lightning and radio frequency interference protection and that was part of what's pushed the original schedule back about six months.

That would have delayed the rear and forward fuselages as well and those we have seen in a more complete state then section 15. I think it's more probable they checked the wing to body join once more (which they also have stated they have done) this would be singular to section 15 and Spirit would have no part in such a delay. Anyway it is the first concrete sign that things are getting late, somehow A started back-pedaling on MSN01s assembly time about a month ago (Enders preparing the world that delays would be better then jams) while they where all singing the tune of being on time at Paris in June, something have happened during/after the summer IMHO.

Wonder what    .

[Edited 2011-10-26 05:33:32]


Non French in France
User currently offlineMWHCVT From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 73451 times:

Why no mention of where the wings are made   I guess it's not going to be flying all that far   

Matt
MWHCVT



Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 73210 times:

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 7):
Why no mention of where the wings are made

Being from UK I understand your grief    , it was simple I did not have this picture in my library because it was to large, here the wing construction flow:

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/m...pe_bucket/A350_Wing_production.jpg

Now the wings come to the FAL after section 15 therefore the focus on that part    .



Non French in France
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5095 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 73019 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 1):
I don't want to blame Spirit but why have such pretty straight forward parts like the skin panels be late?

No part on a brand-new airliner using an entirely new construction method is straightforward... obviously we hope for no delays, but delays are hardly surprising.



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlineMWHCVT From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2008, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 72884 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 8):
Being from UK I understand your grief , it was simple I did not have this picture in my library because it was to large, here the wing construction flow:

:D I was to some extent having a bit of jest  but it's really interesting to see the process so thanks for putting it together  

Matt



Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9835 posts, RR: 96
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 72408 times:
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Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):
No part on a brand-new airliner using an entirely new construction method is straightforward... obviously we hope for no delays, but delays are hardly surprising.

It's also easy for us to forget how delays to one programme can impact another - e.g. engineeering resource that has been funnelled into the A400M and A380 to resolve unforseen issues, could have been progressing the A350.
We know the A350 has been impacted by this...   

Rgds


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2607 posts, RR: 25
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 72371 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 1):
Here the panels on the CFRP and ALU (lower sections) frames in section 15:

When seeing this picture I realized that Airbus did actually change its design philosophy for the rear section: the upper edge of the tail section declines slightly (a la 767, 787) whereas the tail sections of the A 300, A 310, A 330 / 340 had a straight upper edge.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tommy Desmet Photography



User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4593 posts, RR: 38
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 72253 times:
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Quoting ferpe (Thread starter):
I felt we needed such a thread now that the prototype production of the A350 starts in earnest

This is a nice initiative ferpe. I guess with the first prototype being assembled this will be an interesting thread to follow. Thanks for your effort.  
Quoting astuteman (Reply 11):
We know the A350 has been impacted by this...   

Yes we do. But so far any envisioned delay still looks oversee-able. Let's hope it will stay like that when more pieces of the puzzle are put together.

[Edited 2011-10-26 09:08:14]

User currently offlineaircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1627 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 69766 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 12):
When seeing this picture I realized that Airbus did actually change its design philosophy for the rear section: the upper edge of the tail section declines slightly (a la 767, 787) whereas the tail sections of the A 300, A 310, A 330 / 340 had a straight upper edge.

I had observed the same thing... What would be the advantage of either construction?


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 69403 times:

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 7):
Why no mention of where the wings are made

I think you'd have to admit that even the UK doesn't make a song and dance about producing the wings. Most people don't know they do.

The UK government needs to find some way to make even more parts for future Airbus planes, if they have their head screwed on. It's all jobs for people.

Quoting ferpe (Reply 1):
ferpe

I really like those diagrams. Great stuff.


User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3301 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 69378 times:

This thing is going to look like an Airbus 777.

User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2607 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 68975 times:

Quoting aircellist (Reply 14):
What would be the advantage of either construction?

Well, if somebody would wake me up in the middle of the night, screaming at me to build a tail section then I would pray it would be for an A 300 / 310 / 330.   I think the old Airbus-style tail section is easier in terms of construction but has eventually aerodynamic disadvantages. Maybe a real expert can explain this.

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 16):
This thing is going to look like an Airbus 777.

That's what I thought as well.

@ Ferpe: thanks for starting this thread. Will be interesting to follow.


User currently offlineaircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1627 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 68598 times:

Hey, N14AZ, wake up and build a tail section, please!

User currently onlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3321 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 68367 times:

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 3):
The composites world article referenced in Reply 1 is indeed excellent, and makes clear that the "ribs and panels" approach should not necessarily be seen as second best compared to barrels (a la 787), as it has its own clear advantages.

Its an amazing puff peice, that is, its nearly word for word airbus's own statements on why they went to panels.

Its great that you can talior the panels with thickness and direction of the fibers. Strangely they keep ignoring that Boeing does THE VERY SAME THING in the barrels.

Also I have to laugh at the text that "we are using smaller parts to make assembly and repair cheaper and easier" right next to a photo of the A350 top wingskin that is a single huge item.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2169 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 68148 times:

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 7):
Why no mention of where the wings are made I guess it's not going to be flying all that far

I was wondering the same thing too. We know that some aircraft like Twin otters can almost fly with no wings as they are so robust, but I don't know about Airbus.... Maybe they are working towards that. I guess it does not quite need any landing gear either.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 12):
When seeing this picture I realized that Airbus did actually change its design philosophy for the rear section: the upper edge of the tail section declines slightly (a la 767, 787) whereas the tail sections of the A 300, A 310, A 330 / 340 had a straight upper edge.

well, that change began with the A380...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Csaba Király



(unlike what AF and SQ apparently want us to believe...)

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Remi Dallot


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Karl K.




When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 68033 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 19):
Its an amazing puff peice, that is, its nearly word for word airbus's own statements on why they went to panels.

I have actually read the NASA study from some 20 years ago, it marvels over that you can use 4 panels to cover a DA barrel (instead of many more panels on metal ships). B actually did the fuselage part (and drew those conclusions) and McAir the wing study. IMHO the world has moved on since then and Bs single piece barrels have advantages (and disadvantages). A has chosen a more conservative approach as they did with staying with bleed. We will know in 10 years who did the sensible choice, I don't think the panel approach is more technically advanced or elegant however.

If A manages to keep the 350 program delays in months instead of years that might be thee    good reason for going a bit conservative.

As Albaugh said "we just booted it", that is another way to do things, cost a $ or two however    .



Non French in France
User currently offlinelhrnue From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 67428 times:

Why are the wings going from UK to Germany and not directly to France? Does not look like a cost effective process to me.

User currently offlineferpe From France, joined Nov 2010, 2792 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 65484 times:

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 22):
Why are the wings going from UK to Germany and not directly to France? Does not look like a cost effective process to me.

The A competence center for high-lift devices is in Bremen, they have tested the slats, flaps, spoilers, ailerons in a full scale test rig there. They therefore have all the knowledge how to install these and how they should be QAd, they also fit all the wing plumbing there. What goes to FAL is a complete functional wing, Brougthon only does the structure.



Non French in France
User currently onlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3321 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 64896 times:

Quoting ferpe (Reply 21):
IMHO the world has moved on since then and Bs single piece barrels have advantages (and disadvantages). A has chosen a more conservative approach

I know, I was just saying that this "new" report was nothing of the kind, and lacked relevant info.

I fully agree that Airbus made the right call not trying to pull barrels out of thier hat for the A350. That doesn't mean its the massively awesome decision and Boeing is a pile of retards like Airbus' claims about thier technology. Its simply a risk/reward decision where Airbus had little time to evaluate how to mitigate the huge risks, and saw the reward as not being one that results in a major advantage at the sales discussion. Same with bleed vs bleedless. Risk vs reward clearly favored using the low risk method even at the risk of some technical downsides.

Both choices are hardly on the level of Piston Vs turbojet, or Turbojet vs TurboFan. More along the lines of "winglets or no winglets" for narrowbodies have been till recently.


25 ferpe : That was my implicit message as well, the report had one point however, panels does allow you to use different constructions techniques between the p
26 tdscanuck : So does barrels...there's nothing to prevent you from laying sandwich core into parts of the barrel during the layup process. Tom.
27 kl911 : Great, I was waiting for this Thread. The A350 will be the plane of the future with all this new technology and materials. Does Airbus have a timeline
28 Post contains images EPA001 : True, but it will not be the only plane of the future. .
29 SEPilot : The difference between barrels and panels masks what the real issue is, and that is joints. In any structure joints are usually the weak point, and th
30 AustrianZRH : Isn't it the other way round, more stress on the circular joints compared to the horizontal joints?
31 Post contains images astuteman : The "Real" Issue? There are a plethora of real issues, of which joints is one... As you say.... For a simple unstiffened pressure vessel perhaps. My
32 Post contains images EPA001 : And that is what keeps us busy here. Thanks for another great post BTW.
33 flipdewaf : Fred Surely it is the one that makes more money for the manufacturer? Fred
34 SEPilot : Actually, your experience is with a pressure vessel subject to primarily external rather than internal pressure. That will behave very differently. A
35 art : A product that makes more money for its users can be sold for a higher price by the manufacturer? Symbiotic, I guess: manufacturer makes more money;
36 Post contains images astuteman : It would be dangerous of you to assume that all of my pressure vessel experience has been with externally pressurised vessels..... Every picture I've
37 SEPilot : I accept the fact that that is the only one with which I am familiar. I do not know anything about your prior experience. Yes, the frames support the
38 Post contains images astuteman : Which perhaps suggests that the "ideal" solution wasn't necessarily that "ideal" ? Hence my emphasis on differentiating between "better" in reference
39 SEPilot : What we are disputing is theoretical vs. practical. The barrel approach is clearly superior theoretically; however, when it comes to actually buildin
40 Post contains images astuteman : Or perhaps more accurately, purely product performace benefit vs overall lifecycle benefit... Either way, if as I suspect, we both pretty much know w
41 kanban : This may be one of the bigger problems they will face, especially if weight becomes an issue. I have concerns that the amount of sub-assembly movemen
42 Post contains images astuteman : Although they do by-and-large seem to have confined sub-assembly moves to one half of one continent.. Rgds
43 bigsmile : A318/19/20/21 (Single Aisle) Complete Functional Wing when leaves Broughton. A330/340/350 (Twin Aisle) 20% Functional Wing (Secondary Structure, Fuel
44 Post contains links ferpe : Here the section 15 crown panel as it reached Spirit St Nazaire. One can see it's impressive size when one compares to the men on the right hand side:
45 Semaex : ... or resources for that matter. If Broughton is already busy with 19/20/21, and that's the core of the Airbus business, then it might just be a sma
46 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Is that the flag of St-Nazaire in the background? No matter, that's a huge part.
47 Post contains images WingedMigrator : All the more so because an airliner fuselage is far from a cylindrical pressure vessel, featuring all manner of penetrations and structural reinforce
48 dynamicsguy : Why do they never publish photos showing the interesting side of these A350 panels?
49 Post contains images astuteman : Which was the exact point I was hoping to get across Proprietary Information? Rgds
50 rheinwaldner : What if joints on the circumference replace a multitude of joints elesewhere? E.g. the ACCA fuselage consists of two pieces that are joined on the ci
51 Ruscoe : From the charts provided it's easy to see why non Aviation people think Airbus is French! But what I was wanting to know is what is Germany's share,
52 queb : Sections 13-14 & sections 16-18 (see picture in the first post of this topic). Don't forget that the A320 replacement will be assembled in German
53 Autothrust : I will ask this question again: Why did Airbus choose to make only the tail a CFRP Barrel and not the rest of the aircraft? They could have made it t
54 tdscanuck : I think you're underestimating how complex the mandrels are...they're not just dumb metal blanks, they've got a lot of moveable, repositionable, part
55 kanban : one of the negatives to more joints is tolerance creep no matter how finely adjusted the automatic laying machines are... This is minimized in a barr
56 Post contains links ferpe : This is not the body panels but indeed the interesting side of the wing skins at Broughton I assume: http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm262/ferpe_b
57 Post contains images EPA001 : Very nice pics. Thanks for posting these. The first A350-XWB seems to be picking up momentum towards roll-out and first flight. Let's hope the initia
58 flipdewaf : I thought this favoured the panel approach as the barels would not be self supporting whereas the panels would? i.e. the panels can just be bolted to
59 nomadd22 : I'm obviously missing something, but what does outside or inside mandrels have to do with barrels or panels? Couldn't you use an outside mandrel with
60 rheinwaldner : In theory this would be possible. In the thread I have started over in the tech forum about cfrp panels this option was evaluated (and not ruled out)
61 kanban : If at the point of transporting, the floor grid is in there is no problem of collapsing.. Plus you have all the ribs embedded in the structure. Now i
62 Post contains links and images ferpe : Thanks for pointing this thread out Rheinwaldner, I did read it. A thread of unusual high quality and one that really discusses panel vs. barrel to t
63 tdscanuck : Barrels are self-supporting with the frames in, just like panels. For starters, there's no requirement that you spin the mandrel continuously...you c
64 Post contains links and images ferpe : That the first assembly of a A350 is delayed in it's start is confirmed by a non official blog by a consultant working at Airbus: http://miscalnoor.bl
65 dynamicsguy : Is that the case? This is a genuine question, since I don't know how Airbus usually does it. I would have thought that it makes sense to get one of y
66 Post contains links ferpe : Good that you asked, I had read it but now I found it from the horses mouth: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...AFQjCNFDqMQa94Ap-ysYpZEbnIe2X
67 Post contains images ferpe : In the Paris briefing slide-set was also this updated time-plan:
68 Post contains images ferpe : In the presentation from Paris I found this picture of what I believe is a crown panel: The frames looks a bit be co-cured but they could also be fast
69 qfa787380 : Personally, I don't find delays terribly exciting. I wonder how they will announce these inevitable delays? Like Boeing in 6 month increments seems q
70 ebbuk : " Quoting ferpe (Reply 64): "Personally, I don't find delays terribly exciting. I wonder how they will announce these inevitable delays? Like Boeing
71 abba : For us as part of the general public this is a matter of mere curiosity. What is important is what information those who are dependent upon receiving
72 Post contains links ferpe : Flightblogger is on his way to Toulose to get the lowdown on the A350 program: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...1/11/travel-night-iad-ams-tls.ht
73 ebbuk : Whoopee. NOT. I can't believe that Ostrower is impartial. Also how a blogger ends up writing for a trade journal and ends up in the press circle is b
74 ferpe : Having read his blog for more then a year I can't agree with you, he has been the one digging deeper into the 787 problems then most magazine journal
75 bonusonus : Any update on the schedule for the first interior fitting of the A350? I assume there will be a few flight test a/c without the interior first, but th
76 tdscanuck : Correct. There are several certification tests that can't be done without a full interior. Tom.
77 Post contains links and images BoeingVista : A350 delayed until 2014H1 http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/a350-eis-delayed/ Not really surprising but still disapointing In other news the
78 Post contains images Autothrust : Couldn't agree more. By reading his blogs its seems he's having more interest in Boeing then anything else. Let's just hope the delay won't be bigger
79 Post contains images ferpe : With a first half 2014 entry into service the A359 and 789 track each other with delays announced for both within a month or so into first half 2014.
80 Post contains images N14AZ : Yes, please send Runwaygirl to Toulouse instead of him and let make her reports. She looks much so much gorgeous. But seriously. He once even comment
81 ebbuk : Oh poo poo poo. It seems it wasn't Boeing that was the problem with the delays of the 787 but the materials. It looks like Airbus' "conservative" deve
82 Post contains links and images r2rho : Correct. Of the 5 a/c planned for the test campaign, 2 will have a cabin and the other 3 won't. MSN1 is always used for flight envelope opening in th
83 flyglobal : Which is perfectly right. I think it is fine that he writes about the whole industry, but emotional he is closer to Boeing. As long as he keeps a neu
84 dynamicsguy : It's still better than keeping on going and digging themselves into a bigger hole.
85 N14AZ : Being an engineer I would love to understand the technical reasons for this delay. Is it possible to draw conclusions from the missing parts in the F
86 Post contains links Autothrust : On N-TV.de: German: "Fabrice Brégier, Nummer zwei bei Airbus, mitgeteilt, dass einige Zulieferer in Schwierigkeiten seien und die Teile nicht rechtz
87 Post contains links and images ferpe : There is a good indication of what is the cause of the delay in Flightbloggers update at this address: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...reaking-
88 Post contains links N14AZ : I hope Airbus gave them a reastic time schedule and enough time to prepare themselves (although I heard the opposite). Thanks for the explanations. I
89 Post contains links ferpe : Airinsight does not add so much to why but have the presentation that Evrard (the A350 head,) presented in a link: http://airinsight.com/ Nice summary
90 mffoda : Although, in the last paragraph he states: "Unlike the A380 and 787 programs, the A350XWB had been running on time until this latest delay. We do not
91 Post contains images cmf : He is putting the normal spin on things. This is the first EIS delay so the others do not count
92 Post contains links ferpe : A great article of how GKN makes the Fixed Trailing Edge (FTE): http://www.reinforcedplastics.com/vi...ircraft-wing-worker-for-the-world/ really advan
93 dynamicsguy : Interesting, but I would consider the wing rear spar to be part of the wing box rather than the FTE. At least in Boeing the FTE is the support struct
94 ferpe : Surprised me too, now fact is GKN makes both the rear spar and what B calles the FTE. So what did Evrard mean, that the rear spar was on track and th
95 Ruscoe : The suppliers will no doubt say Airbus have been making lots of changes and are late with the final specs. Ruscoe
96 Stitch : I have not heard that, but I have been seeing them quoted in the press through much of 2011 stating they were not confident they could meet Airbus' d
97 kanban : From my years in the purchasing (Materiel) dept, this is the number one box checked by suppliers on new airplanes, number two is their component and
98 Post contains links and images ferpe : Caution!: This post is not intended as a B vs. A post nor intended to impinge on the very professional company Spirit. A wanted more $ manufacturing c
99 Stitch : Spirit appears to maintain separate factories for the 787 and A350. The Spirit facility that manufacturers the panels for Airbus is located in Kinston
100 ferpe : I don't question that, this might indeed be the cause. I know that the 787 and 350 work is done in different factories in different locations. Now de
101 Stitch : Did Spirit perform the design work for Section 15? Or did Airbus perform the design work and then provided the drawings to Spirit to build to spec?
102 ferpe : Good question, wouldn't Evrard have been more cautious with his words if A did the design work and was late? I think the qualified tier 1 risk sharin
103 Stitch : Contracting out major design work to the suppliers (combined with failure to properly oversee it) was one of the major problems with the 787 and one o
104 Post contains images ferpe : I don't think the situations were the same, B contracted people like Vought, Alenia...which demonstrably didn't have sufficient CFRP engineering know
105 Post contains links N14AZ : Another section has been spotted on its way to Toulouse: http://img.aviation-friends-hamburg....e/bild.php/2182,5740fgstd1WYPK.jpg Source: http://www.
106 Post contains images ferpe : Great catch, this is the Nordenham produced section 13-14, if so it should be on it's way to St Nazaire to be mated to the cockpit section before goi
107 Post contains links BoeingVista : Flightblogger reports that the TXWB has started ground runs but.. http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...olls-royce-advances-toward-tr.html So an "iss
108 zeke : I can confirm what Flightblogger is saying. On one of the 8 Trent XWB test engines they found a leak in an air seal, they have already redesigned and
109 BoeingVista : The TXWBs weight is a more closely guarded secret than a bride on her wedding day. Could you ball park what this weight is supposed to be either in a
110 zeke : No, not a number I know off hand, and not something that interests me greatly. The tested TSFC is currently 9.5% lower than the GE90-115B, in compari
111 Post contains links and images flood : Thanks for the interesting, extensive update. David K-M of flightglobal just uploaded a photo of wing assembly beginning at the new Broughton plant.
112 Stitch : As noted, Rolls has not released the weight of the Trent XWB, but the Trent 1000 weighs in at just under 12,000 pounds and the Trent 900 at just over
113 Post contains links and images BoeingVista : Could you humour me and try and find out.. TIA But which CF6, there are so many; the GE90-115B number is useful though as this can be compared direct
114 Post contains images ferpe : @Zeke, thanks for this great update, it feels like this thread is ready to roll again after the "delay" malaise period ...
115 BoeingVista : I know that, thats why I am asking. The engine year book has typos anyway, it lists the GENx1-b as 18,822lbs which is way too much, most sources have
116 tdscanuck : It depends on what's happening in the other testing flows...if the engine was supposed to come off to be split for other reasons in the not too dista
117 zeke : It will be public knowledge next year when the type certificate is issued. The CF6-80C2 Interesting graph. I did a quick spreadsheet having a look at
118 tdscanuck : I get that, but that's not the same thing as saying "the engines will meet spec at EIS." They may just be dancing around words but that's an issue wh
119 Post contains images ferpe : Re engine TSFC, Airbus have previously stated that the TXWB would be 2% better then the engines for 787 (this must have been the 787 target spec), If
120 Post contains links and images ferpe : Flighblogger has seen our post on the Hamburg guys spotting section 13-14 being transported to St Nazaire. He includes a link to Premium Aerotec which
121 abba : I suppose that this is due to a lot of test equipment for certification?
122 Post contains images queb : Titanium floor beams ? This could explain the aircraft overweight. Seriously, A350 floor beams are made of aluminum-lithium alloy (std aluminum or co
123 Post contains links ferpe : You are right, thanks. I was mislead by this slide from their producer, Premium Aerotec (picture 5/5): http://www.premium-aerotec.com/en/Page1637.htm
124 Post contains links Rheinwaldner : Here are some news not yet covered (as far as I am aware): http://www.flyafrica.info/forums/sho...rst-A350-for-main-structural-tests Quotes:
125 ferpe : In the same Flightglobal article: The TXWB continues to bring good news for the A350 program: "The engine for the A350-900 is the first in the Trent f
126 r2rho : However, the TXWB on the A380 FTB has rolled out a few weeks ago, has been taxiing AFAIK, but we have not seen it fly yet. Might there be anything ho
127 ferpe : Yes, they want to change this rotating seal to the new design to get a real world test on that as well, should be done as we write this.
128 nomadd22 : Seriously, that's a meaningless comparison. Aluminum is heavier than aluminum if you're comparing pieces twice as strong.
129 BoeingVista : Current tests on the FTB would have to be sea level static (since it hasn't flown yet) but RR would have access to an altitude test cell so I'd guess
130 Post contains images queb : Not if you're comparing pieces with same dimensions, of course...
131 ferpe : Floor beams don't have any size constrains, they can be made arbitrarily wide. But Ti is more expensive and harder to mill (and the floor beam are mi
132 packsonflight : What is the "best" way of building CFRP barrel or fuselage is a relative thing, but I believe Boeing focus when they decided on how to build the 787
133 nomadd22 : They wouldn't be the same dimensions if the strengths were that different. The dimensions follow the requirements.
134 flyglobal : Wrong assumption. The other way round. You have a load to calculate to make your design. We in engineering speak about load cases to cover static and
135 kanban : An interesting idea, however from what I've seen, the A350 process will have a higher level of automation up through body join. Boeing was concentrat
136 Post contains links and images ferpe : There is an exhaustive and for the most part well written article on the A350 program at Aspire aviation: http://www.aspireaviation.com/2011/1...enges
137 Post contains links ferpe : The mating of the cockpit section and the forward fuselage (section 11-14) has started in St Nazaire. This is the first unit to go to FAL later where
138 Post contains images wolbo : As outsiders we easily tend to underestimate the amount of work involved in these steps. I was also surprised it took this long and that it will take
139 KennyK : Looking at the photograph of the newly mated Cockpit and Front Fuselage sections, that fuselage looks a bit on the thin side or that guy is 9 foot tal
140 Extra300 : The cockpit windows looks like A350 to me
141 leftyboarder : The guy is standing above the prototype, not at level with it, so perspective might be in play here.
142 Post contains links and images ferpe : It is the 350, the section 13-14 was shipped from Nordenham second week of November to St Nazaire. Here is another picture from the inside: One can cl
143 WingedMigrator : Is this the first Airbus with non-opening cockpit windows?
144 lightsaber : Good to hear. Thanks for the update. 2% is 'higher than expected' at this stage (ok, 1.5% is expected...) But its certainly better than 9%/6%. There
145 RoseFlyer : Very informative article and appears unbiased. It talks about the A350 having to deal with the same problems as every other airplane does during init
146 MoltenRock : Has Airbus stated whether or not they are planning on going to go to "wing break" during testing? I know Boeing decided not to break the wings of the
147 AngMoh : If the job is just to get the plane out as fast as possible, then it would be slow. If you are validating the production process properly as well as
148 Post contains links and images ferpe : You would have to travel to Munich airport, just down the road is Erding (famous for their Weissbier ) and there is IABG, a big Defence and Aeronauti
149 Post contains images flyhigh@tom : I hope that hatch on top of the fuselage does not mean non-opening cockpit windows...that would be such a bummer! Am so used to always opening the sl
150 Post contains images Autothrust : Thank you very much for opening this thread and keeping it alive with the always most interesting and newest info!
151 r2rho : Purely my speculation, but I could easily imagine that the time spent in SNZ has not only been to mate the sections, but as a first trial run to trai
152 Post contains links and images ferpe : Just to give a glimpse of what Airbus preFAL sites have ahead of them in terms of stuffing, the pictures below are extracted/zoomed pictures from Airb
153 cymro : Great thread, being picky here but the CWB never goes to Broughton, it goes to SNZ and then to FAL.
154 Post contains links and images ferpe : Sure, it is the piece in the middle in left hand part of the picture in post 148. St Nazaire is a close as it gets to Wales, the picture below is wro
155 Post contains links and images ferpe : EADS finished their Investors conference in London today and Airbus COO Fabrice Bregier gave an update on the A350 program: http://www.eads.com/eads/i
156 474218 : It allows them to make the angle of the lower fuselage shallower, adding cargo space and allowing for a flat floor in the aft cabin.
157 Post contains images EPA001 : Thanks for the link ferpe. What struck me in the financial presentations is the exceptional strong financial cash position EADS has. And some posters
158 Post contains links and images ferpe : Here is the the tail cone, section 19, ready for transportation from Getafe in Spain to EADS Hamburg to be mated to section 16-18. This is the only pi
159 Post contains images aircellist : Indeed... Fascinating that it has been fasteners on one side, clips and brackets on the other. I understand that it is quite a job to have all that (
160 Post contains images ferpe : The part we are missing now is section 16-18 of the fuselage. I managed to find some pictures of the production of the large and complex side panels,
161 notaxonrotax : Yep!! The question is; "is the sting in the tail"? It looks great. I have been following the several A350 parts that were manufactured; from a distan
162 Autothrust : Then imagine what a undertake it is to make the A380 with up to 3 million more parts then A350. Doesn't it seem to have a strange shape?
163 notaxonrotax : Definitely! But that is kind of my point; A380 was "mildly" delayed as well. But the difference at this very moment is that A380's process works and
164 Post contains links and images ferpe : After some poking I have found the missing pieces for section 16-18, they are indeed made by EADS Hamburg, to be more exact by Airbus CFRP competence
165 Post contains links and images ferpe : I have been able to glean a bit more of the state of the program from the Investors conference material, here goes (Fabrice Bregier, Airbus COO): SECT
166 Post contains images EPA001 : Thanks for putting all these highly interesting details in one post. It sure gives a very honest picture of where the A350 is in this stage of the pr
167 neutronstar73 : The one of the best parts of aircraft manufacturing? All the cool machine tools that are developed to build them! Imagine having that stuff in your ga
168 dynamicsguy : Sorry, that's just a poor excuse for not planning and scheduling properly and has nothing to do with whether the parts were designed in CATIA or on p
169 Post contains images astuteman : In fact, if you engineer the manufacturing process appropriately, the additional joints give you more opportunity to take tolerance creep out Yep. Th
170 dynamicsguy : Absolutely the right thing to do. They're already doing things better by holding work back rather than pushing ahead. It was mainly the excuse I was
171 SeJoWa : And the really knuckleheaded fact is that almost everyone thinks they're unique! Argh. Thank you ferpe for the great updates, it's fascinating to gli
172 cmf : ferpe, thanks for not just keeping this thread alive but also one of the most interesting threads at airliners.net. Few are unique. But neither are al
173 scouseflyer : I remember reading that they are mainly financing the development of this bird out of Cash Flow - which is remarkable and will mean that there isn't
174 Ruscoe : Having cash is better than not having cash, and I am not saying anything about the overall Airbus financial situation and how the 350 will effect it,
175 Post contains links and images Heavierthanair : G´day First front fuselage has arrived in TLS. Some nice pics http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-at-toulouse-assembly-line-366361/ Cheers Peter
176 nomadd22 : That doesn't really mean anything. Paying out of cash flow means that cash isn't retiring other debt, so it doesn't affect the overall debt load. It'
177 Post contains images astuteman : I'm looking forward to our next conversation about Boeing's ability to generate cash , guys..... Try and play down the significance of Airbus develop
178 knoxibus : Section 19 has just been delivered to the FAL in Toulouse. This is the first step Not quite yet, all teams will be present there at the end of March 2
179 Post contains images cmf : You probably did. Because I find myself agreeing with you every time I read one of your posts. The funny cash issue above is a good example. I read t
180 Ruscoe : I would be inclined to agree with that, but we havn't entered the most costly phase of the project. ???????? I think a separate thread would be justi
181 Post contains images astuteman : When just about all of the capital investment is in place, the product is coming into final assembly, with all the minor detailed items being made, a
182 Post contains links and images ferpe : Hello knoxibus, given your profile you should be in the know. I am surprised to find S19 in TLS FAL, the picture of Reply 158 I found through the fre
183 Post contains images Stitch : The German vendor of the laser alignment system used to ensure panel tolerances wrote a piece about how they and Airbus worked together to minimize a
184 JerseyFlyer : The step immediately following "just in time" is "just too late"!
185 Post contains images EPA001 : Indeed. And that is why it caught my attention when reading through all of the highly informative and interesting presentations from EADS/Airbus. .
186 BoeingVista : The project seems to be going well, taking a little bit longer than planned but these things always do, but yes the FAL has clearly got parts on it b
187 cmf : Well right now there are many big visual things happening so it is easy to show progress. Once all the big parts are at the FAL I expect news to slow
188 Post contains images AustrianZRH : Astuteman, everyone educated by a.net knows by now this is only because of the free money and subsidies by France/Germany/the E.U. (pick your favorit
189 Post contains images 747400sp : What, It has curved windshields! Very un Airbus, I like it! I wish Airbus could have did this to the A380, because with curved windshields, the A380
190 knoxibus : Sorry, my bad, it is not really the S19 but the VTP part of it that will go on ES MSN 5000. Difficult to spot, but it is actually shown on your post
191 Post contains images Wsp : Indeed, being able to pay for a $15bn program without increasing your debt doesn't really mean anything at all. [Edited 2011-12-23 17:33:01]
192 Post contains links and images ferpe : According to Bregier at the Investor forum it will take until Feb to fly the TXWB, this is quite a bit longer delay then what RR said but RR and A mi
193 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Is this not the side panel immediately forward of the APU tail cone, judging from the mold line? In any event thanks again for your very informative
194 aircellist : I second that! Ferpe, Knoxibus, merci beaucoup! This thread is like a Christmas present in advance!
195 AsianDude : Agreed. Not to mention that John Leahy, as well as other Airbus ex's have stated that the commercial sector's profit margin will increase greatly sta
196 Post contains images ferpe : Hi WingedMigrator, nice that you enjoy the thread, knoxibus comment on the VTP was the best yet . The picture is from a Stade tapelayer (I found it o
197 Ruscoe : I'll just reiterate that cash doesn't mean much at all. EADS themselves state that the Airbus cash has been boosted by future orders, which at 480bil
198 Wsp : I think when you reiterate something it is more effective if you don't contradict that claim just a few sentences later.
199 neutronstar73 : Is it me or does the new A350XWB have a more ovoid fuselage like a 757/767/707/737? Or is that just a photo trick on my eyes? I believe all Airbus air
200 Post contains links and images ferpe : According to Wikipedia the A350 has a double lobe, ovoid cross section. I was surprised by how narrow the cockpit section appeared on the FAL unloadi
201 nomadd22 : I didn't think my explanation of my comment was all that difficult to understand. Not that it means anything to people who use eye rolling, insulting
202 Daysleeper : So your saying Airbus is only able to afford to pay for the A350 development because it isn’t paying its debts? Do you have any proof of this? I’
203 nomadd22 : There's a big difference between "paying your debts" and "retiring debt" I said what I said. Don't reword it.
204 Daysleeper : In that case I’m really struggling to understand what your point is. Reading though the thread again, the initial comment regarding finance was tha
205 Post contains links Fyano773 : Related news: Honeywell will start with tests for Airbus 350 Mexicali, Baja California.- Honeywell Aerospace held a ceremony for the official start o
206 Post contains images BoeingVista : Its a photo trick, up close the green nose section seems to define the shape as ovoid but from a distance you can see the yellow / brown section 13/1
207 neutronstar73 : Thanks, Dude. I guess I need to get my eyes checked! She does have an interesting nose
208 cmf : Let's go back and look at what you said: Spending the money on paying down debt instead of R&D means you state there is no future in your product
209 Post contains images astuteman : One things for certain. It has been far, far better for Airbus to have developed the A380, the old A350 until it was stopped, and the current A350XWB
210 Post contains images EPA001 : I guess we already have. . Merry Christmas indeed to everyone.
211 Mortyman : Fantastic pictures ! Thanx for these
212 Post contains images ferpe : Here is a picture I can't hold back, it has nothing to do with the thread other then to wish all a Happy Christmas: Some might have seen it before, I
213 Wsp : EADS/Airbus has been declared on the brink of insolvency and at the mercy of creditors numerous times in the past few years by various commentators.
214 Ruscoe : I have been trying to avoid answering too many of these posts regarding debt and cash and 350 financing, because I do not want to expand ferpes excell
215 Post contains links and images ferpe : There is quite some interesting info on the wing side spread over the internet. Here is a try for a recap: DESIGN RESPONSABILITY The wing design is sh
216 kl911 : Yes, please open up another thread about finance if you like, but keep this one focussed on the A350. Thank you Ferpe and others, please keep us upda
217 Post contains images Daysleeper : I think it might require a new thread of its own…..It could be my PC, but I suspect due to it containing many large pictures (which I absolutely lo
218 Post contains images Revelation : Just wondering: if the idea is to not ship incomplete parts, why is there a missing door and window? Thanks, knoxibus, for sharing your insights. Kee
219 BoeingVista : Lets, not. Can you please take the politics and Euro bashing outside and to another thread because we are busy watching an aircraft get born in here.
220 Revelation : Personally, I'd be glad if the thread were 100% technical, but that's not where we are at. If the mods want to come in and take out every post that is
221 cmf : It is not incomplete if the plan is to attach them later in the process.
222 ferpe : This is the static test specimen, MSN5000. The door and window is not a load carrying structure IMO and therefore not part of the MSN5000 parts list.
223 abba : I just wonder that even if the doors and windows are not load carrying structures their installment on the structure must have implications on how th
224 Stitch : The inclusion of doors and windows are relevant to the fatigue test airframe, since they are areas where material fatigue could conceivably occur.
225 Post contains images Rheinbote : You are both right. Amongst the relevant loads for a fatigue test frame are loads that result from repeated cabin pressurization cycles. A prerequisi
226 Post contains images ferpe : So we all agree that comes the fatigue frame we will see doors and windows , now we will see them on MSN001 before then.
227 AngMoh : I was originally wondering the same, till I had a better look at the installation of the strain gauges on the outside of the body. They seem to be ro
228 zeke : A350 fatigue testing from my understanding is being performed in 3 sections, not with a complete airframe.
229 Rheinbote : Fatigue testing is done on component level and on overall airframe level as well. Usually there's a barrel test, sometimes there's a test with a comp
230 ferpe : Let me try to comment on the static test wihout being an expert in any way (fine if such one would step in): The static test is there to verify ultima
231 zeke : As I previously mentioned, the fatigue testing is being done in 3 sections, these sections are known as EF (Fatigue)1, EF2 and EF3. EF1 - sections 11
232 Ruscoe : I am getting a bit confused now. (not hard to do) Is my current understanding that there will be two frames correct?; 1. one with no windows or doors
233 dynamicsguy : I guess this is not really all that much different to past programs. Whether the engineering groups are internal or external, you would still need th
234 bikerthai : I think Ultimate Static tests of the whole air frame requires pressuriation. Otherwise the load distribution around the center wing box and wheel wel
235 abba : I just wonder how long the Christmas holiday will last i France and we can expect more news from theis interesting program?
236 Post contains links and images ferpe : Difficult to say but while we wait for Airbus to ready and show more sections from PreFAL I have put together a bit more that I have found when pokin
237 nomadd22 : Best single post I've seen in this asylum Ferpe.
238 Post contains images ferpe : Thanks, it was fun doing it when I had all this material gathered .
239 Aircellist : I second that. Magnifique! Merci.
240 Pihero : Hello, Ferpe ! Awsome post but I'd like to complete it : 1/- Please say " Mach numbers" instead of "Mach speeds" as a Mach number has no dimension (
241 Post contains links tdscanuck : Lower drag may enable lower thrust in an engine out but it doesn't do anything for safer stall behavior...that's a function (primarily) of wing twist
242 Post contains images ferpe : Getting rusty Just reiterating the A claims, guess they mean that droop nose gives both at the same time without other drawbacks (like excessive twis
243 Post contains images EPA001 : Me too. A fantastic post to read. Thanks for the effort that went into it. .
244 abba : Same here!
245 Post contains images ferpe : Thanks Pihero. I guess the variable camber of the 787 and the 350 will increase the sweet spot of lowest drag that you describe and that there will b
246 mffoda : I would suspect A lifting body...
247 astuteman : As far as I'm aware, they already exist. The A380's body generates a whole heap of lift... Rgds
248 breiz : On April 16th, 1959, the Caravelle "Lorraine" glided from Paris/Orly to Dijon in 46 minutes. From 12,000m vertical Orly to Dijon 265 km away, that gi
249 ikramerica : Yes, ferpe, great work. Thanks. I think this is as much to do with the target market as anything. While the 787 was sold as having 8000nm range, Boein
250 Stitch : It's a flip of the A330-300 / 777-200ER days. Now it's the Boeing plane that will fly the medium range missions and the Airbus the long-haul missions
251 ikramerica : So the question remains, will the 777NG be as bad an answer to the A350X as the A345/6 was to the 777LR?
252 Post contains images EPA001 : Well, the A345 and A346 were introduced a couple of years before the B77W and B77L.
253 tdscanuck : It shouldn't generate too much in absolute terms...most airliners fly slight nose-up for stability reasons, which causes some lift on the fuselage, b
254 Post contains links NZ1 : Please continue discussion in Part 2 here: A350 Prototypes Production Thread Part 2 (by NZ1 Jan 6 2012 in Civil Aviation) NZ1 Forum Moderator
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