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Diversions On UA 757: CDG/AMS-IAD Will It Last?  
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13091 times:

AMS-IAD: 2 diversions in the last 2 weeks

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/C...5/history/20111027/1015Z/EHAM/KIAD

CDG-IAD: 4 diversions in the last 2 weeks (the other flight was OK)

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/COA131/history

We're not even into the winter months yet -- will UA/CO want to keep operating these flights out Dulles if they are subject to diversions? Has UA been getting complaints yet from the loyal IAD-ers? Diversions on TATL to EWR don't seems nearly as numerous, even during the winter.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24709 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 13050 times:

The total diversion count is even higher since the 757 planes were assigned to the routes, and there is a second CDG flight (133) to consider also.

I don't care to get into the weeds of why/how at this stage since I don't think there is a single smoking gun.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 12941 times:

out of curiosity, what's the flight scheduled for block time wise?

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16793 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 12816 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
I don't care to get into the weeds of why/how at this stage since I don't think there is a single smoking gun.

Could any of this be a pilot action?



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 12725 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
Could any of this be a pilot action?

What do you mean?? Diverting for the hell of it, or trying to make a political statement??

Pilots won't just divert a plane unless there is a *very* good reason.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 12668 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):

A 757 diverted flying TATL. It's either fuel or medical. That's all it could really be, but it's probably fuel.

Quoting catiii (Reply 2):
Reply 2, posted Wed Oct 26 2011 16:07:46 your local time (27 minutes 49 secs ago) and read 219 times:

out of curiosity, what's the flight scheduled for block time wise?

IAD-CDG: 7hr 25 min RETURN: 9hr 15min
IAD-AMS: 7hr 30 min RETURN: 9hr 10min



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16793 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 12607 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 4):
What do you mean?? Diverting for the hell of it, or trying to make a political statement??

I mean job action, work slow-down, over abundance of caution etc..

The UA and CO pilots groups have been very active lately;

Occupy Wall Street

http://destructionist.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/610x.jpg?w=610&h=406



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3184 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 12587 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
I mean job action,

Yeah, that'll fly when the company and chief pilot ask them WHY they diverted.  



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 12508 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 5):
IAD-CDG: 7hr 25 min RETURN: 9hr 15min
IAD-AMS: 7hr 30 min RETURN: 9hr 10min

Thanks Tommy. Reason I ask is I'm wondering if the tech stop is built into the schedule if indeed it is a fuel/tech issue. From the SEP 30 through OCT 12 CDG-IAD (for example) was averaging 8h25min according to FlightAware. On OCT 17, it even did it in 7h11min. Could just be some bad luck.


User currently offlineYukon880 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 12416 times:
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Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 7):

Surely you're not suggesting...



Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
User currently offlineusairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3372 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12147 times:

It may stay for as is for a bit. Isn't UA/CO doing a lot of reconfigs with the 764/772 and then the 762's slowly leaving. For the time being they may have to deal with these diversions and then once the reconfigs are complete and the 787's arrive the appropriate aircraft can be placed back on the route.

User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11154 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12050 times:

How could UA have a problem with sending 757s across the pond from IAD when they did it for all those years out of EWR? US similarly seems not to have any problems from PHL. IAD is not substantially further away.


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User currently onlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11863 times:
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Quoting D L X (Reply 11):

How could UA have a problem with sending 757s across the pond from IAD when they did it for all those years out of EWR? US similarly seems not to have any problems from PHL. IAD is not substantially further away.

Flight routing, head winds and the extra distance can all combined to put the flight under reserve minimums and force a tech stop.

Also, no pilot is going to do a diversion that isn't mandated due to fuel state. Such a unnecessary diversion will get the pilot fired most likely.


User currently offlineDrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5143 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 11800 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 12):
Flight routing, head winds and the extra distance can all combined to put the flight under reserve minimums and force a tech stop.

Undoubtedly.

As mentioned before IADer's will have to endure the 'dreaded' 757 until more 787s come online and reconfigs finish.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 831 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 11611 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
Could any of this be a pilot action?

Why not suggest this? After all, UA/CO did blame a staffing shortage this summer on the pilot group. Despite being warned months in advance of a pilot staffing shortfall, CO blamed the flight cancellations (over 100 in late July, IIRC) on a pilot sick out.

Time and time again, I wonder in amazement at how quickly employee relations have crumbled (deteriorated) under Smisek's watch. In my opinion, he wants to pick a fight with ALPA. Maybe he's hoping for a mistake on their part.



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4270 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 11251 times:

According to weather.com there were bouts of heavy rain/storms on all four of the days the CDG flight diverted and all three days the AMS flight diverted. If flow was restricted over the Northeast/Mid Atlantic and they were told to expect to hold, they could have diverted to pick up more fuel. The three AMS-IAD diversions occurred on the dates of three of the CDG-IAD diversions. Weather or flow control seems an obvious culprit here.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10651 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
How could UA have a problem with sending 757s across the pond from IAD when they did it for all those years out of EWR? US similarly seems not to have any problems from PHL. IAD is not substantially further away.
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 12):
Flight routing, head winds and the extra distance can all combined to put the flight under reserve minimums and force a tech stop.

Im guessing maybe to avoid the NYC airports the planes add a few miles so its about 250 +/- miles further. Its still further in the end and i dont want that plane running on fumes if theres delays to land in IAD do you? Im sure if they are making the stops its cause they need to and its safer. There is definitely a chance that those planes could have made it to JFK/EWR but are running low for the last part just barely not making it. I noticed more than one of the flights was deverted to Stewart SWF which is a NY area airport managed by the port authority but less crowded so that sounds definitely like fuel stop to me and it would have made JFK/EWR obviously. SWF is a good fuel stop uncrowded and get the plane back up for IAD with no delays waiting to take off again


User currently offlineG500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 934 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10152 times:
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Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
Could any of this be a pilot action

Is not a pilot thing, its a Continental thing. They love pushing those 757s as much as they can


User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6432 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9871 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 4):
Pilots won't just divert a plane unless there is a *very* good reason.

Contract time causes pilots to
1. Fly the contract
2. Write up excessive maintenance items
4. Use excessive sick time,when they are unhappy over something
5. Divert the flight


User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9292 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 18):
5. Divert the flight

Never heard of diverting as a side effect of contract negotiations. That one could find a pilot in hot water. Also, weather / fuel diversions are run through dispatch. If your dispatcher doesn't agree with your decision to divert, you're going to be doing the Carpet 1 Arrival. I had that happen on a legitimate divert when dispatch had an unrealistic idea.


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8896 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
Occupy Wall Street

STT, I'm sorry this is plain nonsense.

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 13):
As mentioned before IADer's will have to endure the 'dreaded' 757 until more 787s come online and reconfigs finish.

I wonder if the diversions will get worse come winter time though? IAD can really only make a few TATL nonstop destinations across the pond before they will indefinitely crap out. IAD-AMS might be at the absolute limit for the 757

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
How could UA have a problem with sending 757s across the pond from IAD when they did it for all those years out of EWR? US similarly seems not to have any problems from PHL. IAD is not substantially further away.

To be fair, I don't think IAD-Europe has ever been tried by a domestic carrier using a 757 so they are still "testing the waters" so to speak.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8248 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8793 times:
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Moving 757's to Dulles was a terrible idea. United should be flying UA flights and Continental should be flying CO flights. Atleast Newrak is used to the 757 to Europe. 757's should be moved to Guam & Air Mike's 767 moved to the mainland. All Guam flights are within range of 757 to Japan and Honolulu. IF that means some low yield vacation tarffic to Guam can't be sold, its sounds like lousy VRF traffic, low hanging fruit.

User currently offlinevgnatl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1513 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8496 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
United should be flying UA flights and Continental should be flying CO flights.

In another couple weeks there won't be that distinction, at least from an operating certificate perspective.

While I'm not sure what the "text book" range is on the 75... IAD isn't that much further than EWR... it must be right on the line when the winds don't cooperate.



Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently onlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8476 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
Moving 757's to Dulles was a terrible idea. United should be flying UA flights and Continental should be flying CO flights. Atleast Newrak is used to the 757 to Europe. 757's should be moved to Guam & Air Mike's 767 moved to the mainland. All Guam flights are within range of 757 to Japan and Honolulu. IF that means some low yield vacation tarffic to Guam can't be sold, its sounds like lousy VRF traffic, low hanging fruit.

If CO thought there was more money to be made by moving the Air Mike 767's to the US and some 757's to Guam, it would've done so. Obviously the yields out there are enough to justify the basing strategy. Problem was that CO simply didn't have the wide bodies to go around and they were making money on long thin routes with the TATL 757.

Also keep in mind CO should have 25 787's if the Boeing schedules were kept so that complicated their fleet plan immensely. IIRC United would've had similar numbers.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16793 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8463 times:

Here's my question though, checking flight aware PMCO flights to EWR from HAM and BCN (which are similar distances, if not further than IAD-AMS, IAD-CDG) are experiencing less diversions over the same period. Why?


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
25 Drerx7 : Well, its certainly not the best idea to move the 757's to IAD...in a perfect world. Under the circumstances I would have done the same - EWR is high
26 TOMMY767 : IIRC, aren't they refirbishing all 764 to the new configuration for European usage? There is already some shifting in fleet out in the Pacific, for i
27 mogandoCI : the whole idea of 757 to a premier destination like Paris is just wrong to begin with - how is it that AF could fill the 380 while UA has to shrink f
28 STT757 : No, 12 are getting refurbished while the four that have been operating out of Guam will remain in Pacific configuration and are operating out of HNL
29 Drerx7 : I can - when we are talking about Mileage Plus'ers and what airline the companies they work for pay for. There will be some folks defecting, but I th
30 C680 : Assuming equal payloads, equal fuel and equal aircraft, I can only think of one reason: winds. Winds over continental Europe could be calm, but very
31 TOMMY767 : Um, I can help you out -- because the route is longer than EWR with likely crap weather on either end leading to flow control problem and fuel stops.
32 STT757 : The OWS comment was to show how active they are with their protesting. 750 UA and CO pilots went down there to protest. That's one route, what else d
33 CODC10 : I don't think it will last all that long. 14 more 767s will be entering the international fleet within a year, in addition to the 787s. You can bet th
34 Drerx7 : No arguments there - I'm just saying that miles is more important to most...including myself who is as big of a.netter out there. I will forgo the wh
35 TOMMY767 : But that has nothing to do as to why these aircrafts are diverting. OK, they have pilots protesting but how does that divert a 757, when it's clear t
36 RoseFlyer : No idea where you get the idea of divert the flight. Dispatch works fuel calculations and is involved in the decision to divert. If Europe - EWR flig
37 Sulley : I too think that this is a stop-gap measure until the two class 763's are converted to international standards. IAD-CDG/AMS/FCO/DME/ACC/etc. are perf
38 TOMMY767 : Flightaware only goes back 2 weeks without subscription: BCN-EWR: 1 diversion TXL-EWR: 1 diversion OSL-EWR: 1 diversion MAD-EWR: 1 diversion Not near
39 washingtonian : What is the Pacific configuration? Yup. Having 14 new internationally-configured 767s (plus 787s arriving next year!) will provide TREMENDOUS flexibi
40 TOMMY767 : The 757 could easily make IAD to the British Isles. I'm starting to think that IAD-BCN/MAD will never happen on the 757 at this point as it would hav
41 thegman : Likely. US ran CLT-DUB with 752 during the summer this year.
42 CODC10 : It's really the high density configuration, 20J/236Y. Will be interesting to see how they fit it out with E+. Probably. I expect to see some IAD-Euro
43 Post contains links STT757 : Again, AMS-IAD and CDG-IAD are shorter than (or at least the same distance) as those routes you just posted. 757 routes by distance: TXL-EWR 3,983mi.
44 AADC10 : I have no data but it could be headwinds. The weather might also be worse at IAD than EWR on specific days and the pilots may not want to take a risk
45 washingtonian : And these are basic domestic J seats? Any AVOD? The 6 two-class 777s with domestic first? Oh yeah? Interesting. What other cities might you guess? I
46 CODC10 : Recliner-type BusinessFirst seats with 55" pitch in a 2-1-2 configuration (4 rows). 4D is often reserved as a pilot rest seat on block times 8hr+. No
47 TOMMY767 : They should just move all 764s to Atlantic configuration and keep PMUA's high density 777s in the pacific. Loads? Headwinds? I'm willing to bet TXL-E
48 Drerx7 : I wouldn't necessarily say that. Yep.
49 CODC10 : It's 4x-5x in the fall/winter. Continental Flight: 69 Departure Date: Oct 28, 2011 Status: On Schedule Departs: Stockholm, Sweden (ARN - Arlanda) Sch
50 GolfBravoRomeo : I was told last week that TXL-EWR generally has a 20 seat restriction on it. When did the IAD routes switch to 757's? If recently, could it be they h
51 den346 : Completely Agree, I am flying this route in January and pricing was about equal for AF and UA (actually UA was a tad more expensive), and I gave up a
52 avek00 : There are so many factors at play behind the scenes: 1. From now until early April, the East Coast of North America is frequently subjected to stronge
53 IrishAyes : Exactly. In this day and age, a lot of the higher-yielding, premium traffic will defer to the airline/alliance where they can accrue benefits the fas
54 YULWinterSkies : Certainly, they too want to fly bigger planes. Bring the wide bodies back is what they are trying to say. Look, UA management, they don't have enough
55 IADLHR : How long will this be? My wife and I are going to France over Christmas. I am an elite with DL and UA. We are taking AF as it is better than UA /CO a
56 Post contains images TOMMY767 : A no brainer, really. A380, great Y food, free booze, AVOD, generally good service. They clearly don't since they are diverting so much. We'll see ho
57 Drerx7 : A good move considering you are connected to Skyteam as well. Yep - in his case.
58 DualQual : If you used great circle distance that can be very misleading. You don't just take off and turn direct destination. The IAD flights are in the same N
59 jfk777 : IF Newark bound 757's from Europe have diversions how can Dulles being 200 more miles from CDG or AMS not have them too ?
60 D L X : Very little, and soon to be almost nothing with the DCA slot swap. DC is a Star Alliance stronghold. I thought I remembered that! Thanks for confirmi
61 TOMMY767 : Well to be fair, EWR had quite a few diversions as of lately -- Several destinations enroute to EWR had to stop at Gander, Goose Bay, or BOS -- at le
62 vgnatl747 : While I didn't check it myself, the OP stated that there were far less EWR diversions than IAD.
63 washingtonian : Like I said earlier, selfishly happy that the 757s won't be here for long (to CDG and AMS). I'd bet we'll see the 2-class 763s before long.
64 TOMMY767 : Verdict is still out there of where those 2 class 763s are going to go. With these recent diversions, I'd hope IAD but many are saying EWR as well. T
65 SonomaFlyer : The 757 fleet will be deployed to additional "thin" routes or increase frequency to hub cities in Europe or perhaps will be part of a greater emphasis
66 757ops : I remember BD flying MAN-IAD and that was diverted occasionally so mainland Europe to IAD is bound to get diversions, I agree that the 757 should be t
67 TOMMY767 : I'd hope more of this. There are some holes in the IAH-South America network that can be filled using a 757. They should make IAH a bit more like AA'
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