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Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 3  
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 47
Posted (2 years 9 months 22 hours ago) and read 15966 times:
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HEAD MODERATOR

The previous part was becoming a bit long, and Qantas is slowly resuming its operations. Please continue discussion in this thread.

Part 2 can be found here: Qantas Grounds Entire Airline Pt. 2 (by srbmod Oct 29 2011 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2011-10-31 04:43:55]


Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
299 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 22 hours ago) and read 15934 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 210):
He is just a nasty little man who has his pet Jetstar.

A wannabe MOL?

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 212):
His nasty arrogance suits Jetstar but not Qantas.

Again....

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 221):

I have no connection to any of this, but it does seem somewhat hypocritical that it's ok for the unions to take job actions that discrupt people's travel plans, yet if management responds then it's somehow a crime against the nation

But there is a big difference between the duty of care of union and carrier. A union is primarily answerable to and responsible for the welfare of it's members and no one else. QF management are responsible to their shareholders AND their customers. Remember every ticket they sell is a contract, and while the Conditions of Carriage may include clauses to cover disruption of service due to industrial disputes and other factors beyond their control, this was a conscious decision by management to suspend service and was subject to their control.


User currently offlinepilotdude09 From Australia, joined May 2005, 1777 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 21 hours ago) and read 15727 times:

Actually it could be the cynic in me but I'm surprised more separation wasn't put between Qantas and Jetstar and Jetstar coming to the aid of people who were stuck and making them out to be the nice guys.

That is the evil irish gnomes plan after all is to give more route to Jetstar and I was suprised to see not much in the way of Jetstar actually doing anything above and beyond just to give that image to help Joyce's case.

Also see on the news.com.au page that there is an A380 departing AKL, assume this is an old photo??



Qantas, Still calling Australia Home.........
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 20 hours ago) and read 15614 times:

@Mariner Reply 268

I was appalled by the ferocity of his campaign against the PM - but while I believe some of it was inaccurate, not everything that was printed was wrong.

You mean he spelled her name correctly!   

For a complete change of pace, here are two interviews from Lateline. Transcripts later:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3352726.htm
Not their only option: Shorten

ALI MOORE: Alan Joyce says he had no other option under the Fair Work Act other than the option that he took. You've said repeatedly he did have other options. What were they?

BILL SHORTEN: Well let's be clear here: what the Government wants is for the flying public to be able to fly, for the economy to be able to function. That's our agenda. We're not interested in picking sides in this argument.

But when I have a look at what happened on Saturday and the grounding of the whole Qantas fleet, the stranding of tens of thousands of passengers, you've got to ask yourself: surely there was a better way to do business than this.

I sat through 12 hours of evidence by Qantas and the other parties, the unions, with the Government on - on behalf of the Government last night and throughout yesterday, and what the Qantas proposition was in essence was that, "We're a large company, but we can't convince some of our employees to agree to the changes we want, so therefore because we can't convince them, we'll damage the economy and we'll go to arbitration." I don't think that that was the only course of action.

ALI MOORE: But in fact they didn't go to arbitration; you went to arbitration. What they did was ground the airline and threaten to lock out their employees. So what did you see as their other courses of action, potential courses of action, if they felt, as they obviously did, that they were getting nowhere with negotiations?

BILL SHORTEN: Well, one, the first course of action is you run your company. When you're a sophisticated business - and Qantas is sophisticated - when you have many, many smart leaders in that corporation - and I know a lot of them personally and they are smart - I just can't believe that it's not possible to help lead your employees on a path of change.

Qantas workers are smart; they understand the issues of the international aviation industry. They understand the cost bases. A lot of these people absolutely love the fact they work for the Qantas airline.

I - the first step therefore in answer to your question is I find it hard to believe that a modern large company, publicly listed, doesn't have the capacity to work with intelligent people.
......
BILL SHORTEN: Not just that, but I don't - I think that Qantas - and I listened to 12 hours of evidence. I've done a thousand enterprise agreements. I've seen change occur in big companies and little companies in Australia.

The first point is: Qantas hasn't in my opinion done the homework to convince its workforce that the direction it's taking is in the best interests of the employees.

ALI MOORE: That's your opinion though and clearly it's not the opinion of management. So my question to you is: if you argue they had other options now on the table with the position they're currently in, what were they?

BILL SHORTEN: Well they could've looked at Section 240 of the Fair Work Act, which allows if parties consent to go to arbitration. They also had Section 424 of the Act themselves, where any party to a negotiation, if they feel that the action's causing damage, great damage, significant damage, that they can take this action and seek termination of the bargaining period.
...
ALI MOORE: Do you believe they would've been able to approve significant damage prior to grounding the airline? Would they have had that threshold met?

BILL SHORTEN: Let's be clear: I would rather try that than strand 100,000 passengers and cause damage to the economy. Don't - when you run an airline and a corporation, it's not just the shareholders who matter and it's not just even the employees; there's the customers.

Companies operate in Australia and we're very lucky to have a very successful private sector in Australia. But companies don't operate with a licence independent of the society they work in. I would've thought there's an obligation to try and work through these processes - as I said, one, for three years before it gets to this; two, using all means that you have available before you take industrial action as a last resort.

I was brought up in the old school where industrial action is the last resort. Qantas took industrial action and they affected all their clients and customers. I just think there's a smarter way to do things.

ALI MOORE: Well of course Qantas is not here to answer, but their argument is that industrial action and the threat thereof was hurting their business. But let me ask you: the Transport Workers Union for one is considering a possible legal action on this ban to all industrial action for the next 21 days. Is there any grounds for legal action, as you understand it, to this Fair Work arbitration decision?

BILL SHORTEN: Well, let me be clear: what we're interested in is the economy and the passengers and the aviation industry and tourism and mining. We believe that Qantas and the unions involved should get on with negotiating and not focus on what their legal or industrial remedies are and focus on finding a settlement.

I think - and I know that the individuals in this workforce, the humble, you know, baggage ramp attendants, the caterers, the flying crews, the licensed engineers, they're focusing on getting the planes in the air. I think that what people want from both the unions and management is leadership. Not conflict, but leadership.


What was that last word???? And much much more basically saying that large companies just do not behave that way.

And here is a contribution from one of those Communist red tie wearing pilots!! Dreadful radical fellow he is too:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3352730.htm
Qantas has lost touch: Barry Jackson
...
Barry Jackson is president of the Australian and International Pilots Association and asserts pilot industrial action has not lost Qantas a single cent or disadvantaged one passenger.
Transcript
Not yet.

But the video is there, and he is pretty convincing.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12892 posts, RR: 100
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 15212 times:
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like how, once again, everyone is ignoring the grounded flights by the unions industrial action. This was two ways.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 1):
A union is primarily answerable to and responsible for the welfare of it's members and no one else.

   Anyone who thinks that unions are not also responsible to customers is living in a past era. That is why the UNITE/BASRA flight attendants had such horrid PR early in the campaign. (Then they seemed to realize the PR battle was *the* battle.)

Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
I think that what people want from both the unions and management is leadership. Not conflict, but leadership.

It is from both the unions and management to show leaderhship and not conflict. Either one party is able to bring a negotiation into conflict. The QF lockout was an epic fail on both the unions and the QF management.

Strikes should be a last resort. Ever since the Eastern airlines mechanics, the attitude on industrial action with airlines has changed. Now unions need to work the PR to be 'regretful' to enter a strike instead of driving the conflict to have a strike the 1st alternative. Simply a PR change... But one customers listen too.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinebmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 15173 times:

QF union will be pretty mad that Aussie government intervened as Canadian government did with AC flight attendants and customer service staff in AC labour dispute.


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4805 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 15148 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
like how, once again, everyone is ignoring the grounded flights by the unions industrial action. This was two ways.

No flights were grounded by the unions industrial action, it was Qantas decision to ground flights.
Quite simply the engineers were not striking, they were just not working overtime (something which anyone should have the right to choose not to do), as a result due to managements past decisions to downsize the engineering dept it meant that not all aircraft could be kept in service.
The pilots simply just made a PA each flight and wore red ties....hardly a factor in grounding planes wouldn't you say?
The only strike action that really had any impact on schedules were the ground handling strikes (IIRC they were 1 hour long...so a few delays but not grounding aircraft!).



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25007 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 16 hours ago) and read 14966 times:
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Quoting Baroque (Reply 3):
What was that last word???? And much much more basically saying that large companies just do not behave that way.

I think that is simple elitism. The kind of elitism that attaches to Qantas and may yet be its downfall.

Nothing in that Cinemascope post persuades to any different opinion from the one I have held.

Quoting pilotdude09 (Reply 2):
Barry Jackson is president of the Australian and International Pilots Association and asserts pilot industrial action has not lost Qantas a single cent or disadvantaged one passenger.

In the case of the pilots that is probably true.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7062 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 13773 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
like how, once again, everyone is ignoring the grounded flights by the unions industrial action. This was two ways.

It's a case of a small fish - union - swimming in a big pond and the big fish - management - letting the small fish know where they get off. Why would folks concern themselve with unions grounding flights when management just grounded an entire airline?

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
No flights were grounded by the unions industrial action, it was Qantas decision to ground flights.
Quite simply the engineers were not striking, they were just not working overtime (something which anyone should have the right to choose not to do), as a result due to managements past decisions to downsize the engineering dept it meant that not all aircraft could be kept in service.

The cynic in me would say that a flight with someone of importance was delayed and that's the straw that broke the camels back.
Hey I'm an X-Files fan, I see conspiracy everywhere.  


User currently offlineaviasian From Singapore, joined Jan 2001, 1486 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 13525 times:

Quite simply, Qantas management used the airline's customers as "human-shields" in its war with the unions. The management cared not that its decision to ground the entire airline immediately was going to severely inconvenience thousands of people - often in the most inconvenient places and especially for those travelling with elderly parents, young children, the sick and the infirmed. At the same time, a whole nation, Australia's tourism industry and even attendees at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) in Perth were held hostage.

I would have been somewhat more prepared to understand QF's management's decision to ground an entire airline if it had warned that unless something is reached by a certain date, the entire airline will be shut down ... a week later. That way, customers have a choice whether to immediately seek alternative travel arrangmeents, defer travel, bring additional medication and other health needs ... or at least be mentally prepared to have their travel disrupted along the way.

The pilot union has been most responsible in minimising the impact of their response to management - wearing red ties, making non-standard announcements and basically seeking the customers' understanding of their predicament (and not forcing anything on them).

Now I wonder if all those insurance companies which had to cope with the tonnes of travel insurance claims are going to sue Alan Joyce and company for this reckless move.

KC Sim


User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 13354 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Anyone who thinks that unions are not also responsible to customers is living in a past era.

Read my statement again and note my use of the word PRIMARILY. The union membership as employees are responsible to their customers, but the union as a body is not, it is there to represent workers rights.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1704 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 13288 times:
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The issue of "mandatory overtime" is one which occurs more often as companies (and government agencies) cut back on staff. Overtime is supposed to be voluntary. Many people will work overtime to make the extra cash (especially given the economy atm). However, making it more or less mandatory introduces leverage for the workers and results in the mess we see now.

Simply put, there needs to be a balance between fleet size and staffing. We see companies all over the place trying to "fly as close to the wind" as possible. However, if you don't have enough engineers/mechanics to maintain your fleet, you need to get more or you'll have to pay your current staff more to work the extra hours.

As quaint as this might sound, I don't understand why airline CEO's don't just sit down with reps for their employee groups and just talk about how things are going. If there are issues, raise them informally and discuss them. The posturing and bitterness evidenced by the QF debacle has poisoned the well between management and their employees for years to come.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 13203 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 11):
As quaint as this might sound, I don't understand why airline CEO's don't just sit down with reps for their employee groups and just talk about how things are going. If there are issues, raise them informally and discuss them. The posturing and bitterness evidenced by the QF debacle has poisoned the well between management and their employees for years to come.

Why go through the union at all? Just talk directly to the workers.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1704 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 13176 times:
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Quoting thegeek (Reply 12):
Why go through the union at all? Just talk directly to the workers.

Some do already with intranet prerecorded web casts. However, the industry is (for the most part) heavily unionized and having your employees from each group who is also the ranking delegate at such a meet respects the fact they chose union representation. It's also not practical to meet with large groups of employees.

Many airlines such as QF, BA, UA and others could do with a "sit down and clear the air" session or two outside of contract negotiations. Building up some good will and listening to whats going on at the customer level I think would have some good value.


User currently offlineJMM99 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 13132 times:

yesterday VC put on a BNE/MEL/BNE from $349 one way. Anyone know if it went out full ?

Looked at TT website last night. They have MEL/BNE today from $59.95 so any backlog MEL/BNE at least must be cleared.


User currently offlineMarkam From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 441 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 10 hours ago) and read 12843 times:

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 1):
But there is a big difference between the duty of care of union and carrier. A union is primarily answerable to and responsible for the welfare of it's members and no one else. QF management are responsible to their shareholders AND their customers.

Wrong, in the same way that you say that a union is only answerable to its members, QF management is only answerable to the shareholders. This is, it is shareholders who decide to elect or to depose management, in the same way that it is union members who elect union leaders. Customer have nothing to say in either decision, and therefore nor the management neither the union are answerable to them. However, customer can and do vote with their feet, so Qantas as a whole better keep them happy if they want to stay in business. But that works for both management and workers, not only for management as you seem to suggest.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 1):
Remember every ticket they sell is a contract, and while the Conditions of Carriage may include clauses to cover disruption of service due to industrial disputes and other factors beyond their control, this was a conscious decision by management to suspend service and was subject to their control.

Very true, but again, the travel contracts are between Qantas and the customer, not between management and the customer., in the same way that work contracts are between Qantas and the workers. It might seem a trivial different but it is not, as in general you as a customer could sue Qantas but not its management for the actions taken in their capability as the firm administrators. Only if management had done something personally to you (say, insult a customer or a worker) you could sue them, but them you would be suing them as individuals, it doesn't matter whether they are Qantas management or not (with the exceptions of the special provisions in the law to a boss-subordinate relationship, e.g. harassment, etc.). Only shareholders can sue management for its actions as administrator in the firm, because they are the only ones with whom management has a contract directly.

In any case, regarding the Conditions of Carriage, if read Qantas announcement you sure noticed that they offered compensation of up to AU$350 per day and/or the difference in fare if the passenger decided to travel with another carrier. While it would have of course been preferable to fly that is a fair compensation in almost anyone's eyes, and one that shows goodwill on Qantas', given the circumstances. Stuff happens, be it volcanoes or strikes, but it is nice that the airline does not dodge responsibility (Ryanair, anyone?). If I had been stranded I would have appreciated the compensation offered, and that in the end this has eliminated uncertainty about the consequences of further industrial actions at Qantas.

Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
Quite simply, Qantas management used the airline's customers as "human-shields" in its war with the unions. The management cared not that its decision to ground the entire airline immediately was going to severely inconvenience thousands of people - often in the most inconvenient places and especially for those travelling with elderly parents, young children, the sick and the infirmed. At the same time, a whole nation, Australia's tourism industry and even attendees at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM) in Perth were held hostage.

Perhaps, but you could say exactly the same about any employee-led industrial action, or do strikes not left "elderly parents, young children, the sick and the infirmed" stranded? Legitimate as the employees' aspirations and industrial action are, realize that so are those of the firm management and of their bosses, the shareholders. That's precisely why Fair Work Australia exists, to mediate and keep the conflict from harming the general public if things get too out of hand.


User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 12694 times:

Quoting Markam (Reply 15):
In any case, regarding the Conditions of Carriage, if read Qantas announcement you sure noticed that they offered compensation of up to AU$350 per day and/or the difference in fare if the passenger decided to travel with another carrier. While it would have of course been preferable to fly that is a fair compensation in almost anyone's eyes, and one that shows goodwill on Qantas',

I did read that and I was not questioning the issue of compensation. Goodwill gesture? I think not. A more accurate description would be 'avoiding litigation action'.

Quoting Markam (Reply 15):
Stuff happens, be it volcanoes or strikes,

And those actions are beyond the control of the company (well the former anyway, the latter is a matter of debate),a staff lock-out is not.

Quoting Markam (Reply 15):
and that in the end this has eliminated uncertainty about the consequences of further industrial actions at Qantas.

In the short term.


User currently offlineMarkam From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 441 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 12588 times:

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 16):
I did read that and I was not questioning the issue of compensation. Goodwill gesture? I think not. A more accurate description would be 'avoiding litigation action'.

Sure, but in many instances airlines have tried to avoid properly compensating passengers, either by making it less clear how compensation could be obtained, or by trying to deny it altogether. I agree that in many cases this only leads to litigation against the company, but some passengers give up and decide not to litigate, so it sometimes saves money to be sneaky, and as a passenger I would have appreciated that Qantas have been upfront about it.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 16):
And those actions are beyond the control of the company (well the former anyway, the latter is a matter of debate),a staff lock-out is not.

As you say, the strike case is a matter of debate (I personally see as something that the company as a whole has to be liable for with respect to the passengers, i.e. compensation must be provided, and most legislation that I know of shares this view but probably there are many exceptions), but for example, the EU legislated that compensation had to be provided by airlines regarding delays and cancellations associated to the Icelandic volcano eruption early last year, and Ryanair decided to challenge that ruling. I do not know what happened in the end, and Ryanair challenge is of course legitimate, and the matter of whether airlines should be held responsible in the event of "force majeure" or "act of god" incidences, but it shows that not all companies have been at all times so straight forward about offering compensation to passengers, even if the law required it.


Quoting EDICHC (Reply 16):
In the short term.

As Keynes said, "in the long run we are all dead".  

Seriously now, you raise a good point, but although the long term is of course very important, if you do not survive the short term you will not even reach the long term.


User currently offlineSInGAPORE_AIR From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13738 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 12573 times:

Quoting Markam (Reply 15):
shows goodwill on Qantas'

Wow. If only more airline CEOs can exert this sort of disruption "goodwill" on passengers they'd be queuing in their droves ! Oh wait, they did....

Quoting Markam (Reply 15):
If I had been stranded I would have appreciated the compensation offered, and that in the end this has eliminated uncertainty about the consequences of further industrial actions at Qantas.

You're welcome to your viewpoint. However, may I vehemently disagree with you. I for one value my time and I make my travel plans for a reason. I would not have “appreciated”: the intense disruption, the inconvenience and stress imposed upon me and third parties, the sheer loss of productivity that would arisen, and the contempt that a company can show in exchange for my custom and faith in that company.

The behaviour is digusting.

Acknowledging that the unions have also caused direct and indirect disruption, I would point out that they are required, by law, to give 72 hours notice before the embark upon protected industrial action. Qantas has shown, as acknowledged widely by media, industry commentators and forum participants alike, that it managed to accommodate passengers and give them advanced notice of changes to their travel arrangements.

Instead Alan Joyce decided unilaterally to shut down flight operations at Qantas with total disregard for passengers.

Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
Quite simply, Qantas management used the airline's customers as "human-shields" in its war with the unions.

Too right and its conduct has been shameful.

I will repeat again as I repeated in thread #2, its the passengers who have sufferred intensely as a result of this grounding and it is my view that the media, journalists, industry commentators, social media posts on Facebook / Twitter etc..., and forum participants have largely ignored their plight and instead choose to focus on the dogma of right vs. left, unions vs. anti-union, Qantas vs. union.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4863 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 12446 times:

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 18):
Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
Quite simply, Qantas management used the airline's customers as "human-shields" in its war with the unions.

Too right and its conduct has been shameful.

Shameful, your being pretty generous if you ask me... To go ahead and disrupt your so called 'loyal' passengers in the manner Mr Joyce certainly isn't very Australian!

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4161 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 12312 times:

Quoting pilotdude09 (Reply 2):
That is the evil irish gnomes plan after all is to give more route to Jetstar and I was suprised to see not much in the way of Jetstar actually doing anything above and beyond just to give that image to help Joyce's case.

After reading these threads with interest and seeing all of this anti Irish racist garbage, I will be in no rush to ever fly Qantas again.

What the hell has the man's nationality go to do with anything.

I really did not expect this of Australians. I suspect many of you need reminding of your heritage.

[Edited 2011-10-31 18:59:06]


Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently onlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 12289 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 19):
Shameful, your being pretty generous if you ask me... To go ahead and disrupt your so called 'loyal' passengers in the manner Mr Joyce certainly isn't very Australian!

EK413

+1

Word on the streets that Qantas is readying a whole bunch of 'sorry is the hardest word' discount fares for their ex loyal and royally pissed off customers.

At least we get a fare war out of this debacle.

[Edited 2011-10-31 18:38:54]


BV
User currently offlinenotaxonrotax From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 394 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 12289 times:

This comment does not reflect on my personal opinion, but I thought I´d share something I read today on this matter:

"A small village in Ireland is missing an idiot".

Classic……..


No Tax On Rotax

[Edited 2011-10-31 18:38:54]


Als vader voorlicht, kan je merken dat hij achter ligt.
User currently onlineBoeingVista From Australia, joined Jan 2009, 1561 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 12269 times:

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 22):
"A small village in Ireland is missing an idiot".

I doubt if they are missing him...



BV
User currently offlineEagleboy From Niue, joined Dec 2009, 1794 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 12251 times:
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Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
Strikes should be a last resort. Ever since the Eastern airlines mechanics, the attitude on industrial action with airlines has changed. Now unions need to work the PR to be 'regretful' to enter a strike instead of driving the conflict to have a strike the 1st alternative. Simply a PR change... But one customers listen too.

THIS WAS NOT A STRIKE!

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
No flights were grounded by the unions industrial action, it was Qantas decision to ground flights
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
The pilots simply just made a PA each flight and wore red ties....hardly a factor in grounding planes wouldn't you say?
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
the engineers were not striking, they were just not working overtime
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
The only strike action that really had any impact on schedules were the ground handling strikes (IIRC they were 1 hour long...so a few delays but not grounding aircraft!).
Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
Quite simply, Qantas management used the airline's customers as "human-shields" in its war with the unions.

Absolutely true. EI did something similar earlier this year,they unilaterally introduced new rules for cabin crew and started suspending staff who didnt comply. They put out adverts blaming the crew even though the crew had been doing industrial action for 10 weeks beforehand with no disruption to pax according to EI statements.
1/3 of their cabin crew were off the payroll before the national labour apparatus got them to go back to the table. (>350 sectors hired in [over 15M Euro spent] to show their muscle)

Quoting aviasian (Reply 9):
I would have been somewhat more prepared to understand QF's management's decision to ground an entire airline if it had warned that unless something is reached by a certain date, the entire airline will be shut down ... a week later.

Very true. By giving a deadline QF could have let EVERYONE know they were committed to trying to solve this situation before hitting the nuclear option.

Quoting thegeek (Reply 12):
Why go through the union at all? Just talk directly to the workers

Oh to work in a perfect world.....or at SouthWest!!


25 BoeingVista : Under Australian law this was industrial action ie, a strike. This was a strike
26 Post contains images Markam : Comes without saying that you may disagree. Just to make it clear, I understand your view, and of course I would have preferred to fly, my point is j
27 Post contains links mariner : Flights were cancelled and aircraft were grounded prior to the Qantas grounding. This is dated 19 October, nine days before the AGM, the day before t
28 shamrock604 : I was careful to ensure I did not tar all with the one brush.....
29 jupiter2 : I don't think any of the "Irish" comments are meant to be derogatory or racist in anyway to Ireland or the Irish, if he had been American, English, In
30 shamrock604 : I'd love to think you were correct in your view, but I've read far too many of these comments, not just on a.net, and quite honestly, I'm disgusted t
31 Baroque : We can certainly agree there. You can almost begin to see a trace from Qantas wins to what in all heck were Joyce and Clifford thinking and even wors
32 shamrock604 : And that is completely unacceptable too. Perhaps we are spotting a trend here! But, I understand why people are critical of him, i'm just amazed that
33 BoeingVista : Well you are free to go or not go wherever you please. I am often disturbed by the racist attitudes of some Irish towards the English and have vowed
34 shamrock604 : They cut both ways, trust me. Having been customer facing in a previous life, it seemed every second time to me a customer from the UK was unhappy, m
35 Post contains images lightsaber : Did the delays hit curfew? If not, I change my opinion as that is simply a protest and not a full industrial action. But... Ouch. Too expensive. In p
36 Post contains links mariner : Let's try 13 October, then - (i) staying clear of the Murdoch press and (ii) defining "strike" as an industrial action. http://tvnz.co.nz/business-ne
37 shamrock604 : Haha.. yes, im sure you have. Just now. And by the way, it cuts both ways, that Irish / English thing.
38 Post contains links Baroque : Some of the more important events today 1 November 2011. 1. Qantas wins read the headlines. 2. Dig a bit deeper and Qantas might be in worse trouble t
39 mariner : Obviously, you don't hear what I say. As you have previously (somewhat sneeringly, I thought) noted, I follow another - smaller - airline from an eve
40 BoeingVista : Godwin Grech *cough* If Abbott knew before the government did this would obviously raise some serious questions. Something to look out for if and whe
41 Baroque : And you do have to feel sorry for the pilots. They are not even asking for more pay, just an assurance basically that Joyce is not trying to circumve
42 thegeek : I disagree. Attempting this has caused issues in Australia, here with QF and also in Sydney with the train drivers, when the workers get sick of it.
43 Post contains images BoeingVista : Should hope not, I relocated from Sydney 6 months ago, its nice out here but oddly remote from the eastern states. Good for keeping up with late nigh
44 fiscal : I think I will start by saying that the proof is shown in the pudding. The strikes have been terminated by the umpire, and the majority of Australians
45 BoeingVista : I'm amazed at how many supposed free marketeers now believe that it is the Governments place to intervene in private enterprises industrial relations
46 joelyboy911 : I would have to disagree. They need government intervention because they aren't allowed to go to the open market for jobs. If the free market forces
47 Post contains links Baroque : Interesting. QF001 and QF32 had it a month or so ago. Seemed little reaction, bet there would be now, but what??? Excellent question. Expect an answe
48 mariner : I'm a free marketeer and I surely don't think that. Nor do I think that the government - or any second guessers - should be telling Qantas how to run
49 PlanesNTrains : I guess I have nothing to add to what I've said. I mean, if union employees can do an industrial action that affects tens of thousands of passengers
50 TruemanQLD : Yes. While you may not support the movement, many Australians (and I am not saying all) support Qantas' move. Also, within a few months, most people
51 Post contains links fiscal : www.perthnow.com.au I think there was about 6000 votes cast...
52 EK413 : What baffles me is the fact QF could've signed off on a deal with unions by now if you take into account the $$$ they have been burning the past 9 mo
53 kiwiandrew : Wasn't the major demand from the unions job security. How could QF (or anyone for that matter) sign off a deal guaranteeing job security? Nobody can
54 EDICHC : Not really as you are comparing apples and oranges. Qantas are responsible to thier shareholders to make a profit from running an airline servce seli
55 aloges : That's the problem. If Qantas is nothing but a profit-generating scheme that happens to have the shape of an airline, it is doomed. If however Qantas
56 Baroque : That is a link to a newspaper telling me mostly who won the Melbourne cup. Thanks, I knew that. None of the first ten polls I found had anything to d
57 par13del : Why would management do such a thing, you are aware of course that the hit they would take in advance bookings and cancellations would be huge, advan
58 EDICHC : I completely agree, I was just highlighting the fundamental differences between a profit making corporate body and a trade union re their respective
59 lightsaber : That actually gets to one of the points I was trying to make. The unions/workers need to work the PR better. The nature of industrial actions has cha
60 Post contains links Baroque : True!! I was just reading Crikey when you posted: Ben Sandilands in Crikey puts the dilemma that has me at odds with those supporting the actions of
61 Post contains links Baroque : For another Sandilands demolition job see: http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...s-dark-with-certain-uncertainties/ The Australian and International
62 EK413 : You make it sound as though there is something wrong with job security... Well it's obvious Qantas management didn't put passengers who they depend o
63 Post contains images ManekS : Lee Kuan Yew has publicly stated that their primary intention is to develop Changi into one of Asia's largest air hubs. They will pursue this even if
64 Post contains links Jacobin777 : Some interesting stuff: "Qantas: Alleged sabotage led to grounding decision" "The airline is tight-lipped on the details but ATW understands that afte
65 mariner : I lost all faith in Mr. Sandilands as an objective reporter when his headline screamed this: "http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/10/29/qant
66 kiwiandrew : There is nothing intrinsically wrong with job security any more than there is anything wrong with the tooth fairy or the easter bunny, they are all n
67 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : More interesting news: "A representative of the Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association, one of the unions in dispute with Qantas, had even
68 Post contains links and images mariner : You've hit it on the head and there's the nut of the problem. Senator Evans was asked about this on tv and agreed with that position: http://www.smh.
69 mogandoCI : they should've shutdown QF even longer. The unions must learn the lesson that in today's competitive economy, you have to choose between a job at a fa
70 Post contains images lightsaber : They just need better PR. That is the problem is that QF was able to put one side in the customers' minds. I'm not siding with QF per se'. But their
71 SInGAPORE_AIR : Right... because shutting down an airline wouldn't disrupt passengers would it... ? Thumbs up indeed.
72 Post contains links mariner : So it would be your view that the industrial action - by the unions - had no effect on passengers? Here is where they stood on 10 October, nearly thr
73 SInGAPORE_AIR : I acknowledge both disruption caused by passengers and by the unilateral and sudden shut down of the airline, as stated in my previous posts (somethi
74 Post contains images EDICHC : Well that was part of the original dispute...the outsourcing of jobs overseas.
75 QFFlyer : Please name other private companies that give their emploees job security like what was being asked for? Why do you think you are so special you shou
76 MD11Engineer : It takes about 7 years to go from zero knowledge apprentice to fully qualified licenced engineer. Jan
77 lhr380 : Dont know if it was true, but I heard the unions were saying they were going to say they were striking, then cancel it at the last minute, causing ev
78 shamrock604 : Wow! That really has, if true, brought this case to a whole new level! I'm sorry if I am speaking out of turn, but given the relatively increased rat
79 MD11Engineer : Leave that to the engineers to sort out between themselves. I know that while I might sanction going on strike if necessary, I would come down VERY h
80 par13del : Well the government of Australia placed some restrictions within the sale agreement when they privatized the carrier, the investors at the time seeme
81 ComeAndGo : ever considered that it could be management that is a failure rather than the workforce.
82 par13del : Meant to say un-employed persons, apologies for the mistake.
83 mariner : The only industrial action that Qantas took was the lock-out - for which he gave notice. The grounding was a separate, if related, issue, for which,
84 SonomaFlyer : The business model which was in place until earlier this year at least wasn't working. The huge influx of competition into Australia on long haul rou
85 JMM99 : Joyce had no choice. He had to stop the insane unions. + he had to ground the fleet, or the unions would had sabotaged aircraft. On another matter, t
86 fiscal : It was on the front page when I posted yesterday, and it is still there today. 5316 votes cast, 52.39% said AJ did the right thing, 43.04% said he di
87 deconz : I can see it too! I think Baroque didn't scroll down far enough ...
88 RyanairGuru : Here here. Shamrock, I am in no way condoning the anti-Irish sentiment. However, you should see the bile fly had he been British or Kiwi!
89 EK413 : Hmmm... Union industrial action 72 hours notice... QF Management ZERO hours notice... Thumbs DOWN to Mr Joyce the CEO of Quantas! Get it right its pr
90 mariner : One mo' time - the only industrial action management took was the lock-out for which notice was given. The grounding was not an industrial action, on
91 ComeAndGo : you mean the passengers that boarded flights in London were given notice that they might end up getting stuck in Bangkok or Singapore ?
92 mariner : I've no idea what passengers in London were told. I don't know what pax were told were their flights were cancelled because of union industrial actio
93 PlanesNTrains : I spent a little time at work today thinking about the dialogue in this thread. Lots of opinions, and much to discuss. However, at the end of the day
94 weebie : The further this goes on the more obvious it is becoming of how much of a genius Alan Joyce is. This guy has made the unions look like muppets and now
95 Post contains images BoeingVista : Mr Joyce is your definition of genius? LMAO As to the sabotage claims, repeating a lie often enough will not make it the truth.
96 EK413 : Considering QF32 suffered an explosion in one of the RR engines I believe this was a wise decision to ground the A380 fleet... On a separate note I t
97 Post contains images packersfan : I have been waiting for Baroque and Boeingvista to say they had seen Alan Joyce and Tony Abbott sneaking onto an aircraft hand in hand and with the pl
98 fiscal : To be fair, the board endorsed the action BEFORE it was taken, so it was not Alan Joyce acting unilaterally.
99 BoeingVista : Masquerading as licenced engineers? Nope, everybody knows that neither of them have ever done an honest days work in their lives...
100 packersfan : What......no welcome to the forum?
101 Post contains images BoeingVista : You registered just to make that crack Welcome!
102 packersfan : Thanks for that. No there is quite alot more to my registration. I have been following this now rather lengthy 3 part tome and some of the views that
103 JMM99 : QF should have offered the unions the same pay as JQ or DJ, but instead they offered them 3% & still they weren't happy they want tenure. Apart f
104 mariner : As I've said several times, it has me baffled. I don't understand the need by so many to downplay or whitewash the union industrial action. If the un
105 JMM99 : DJ just anounced business clas fares on the triangle. Good timing !!! BNE/SYD from $579 SYD/MEL from $559 BNE/MEL from $885 All one way. LET THE WAR B
106 thegeek : Your comments caused me to look up the current Act, and the (repealed) Work Choices Act, and it seems you are indeed correct. Work Choices wasn't pro
107 shamrock604 : As opposed to any time where the staff have been the ones to prevent the flying? I really dont think the unions can occupy the moral high ground on t
108 EK413 : I agree it was the decision of the board but Mr Joyce is the one which has to press the launch button and explain why this was the only solution... T
109 shamrock604 : For what reason exactly? Because Joyce is representative of Ireland? Because the "spirit of Ireland" is to inconvenience your travel plans? Please do
110 thegeek : Well said. If they don't like it, maybe they'd rather work for JQ or DJ.
111 Post contains links TruemanQLD : Not going to speak for Tony Abbot as I dont know all that much about him, but I will argue in AJ's defence. Just because AJ doesnt work as a pilot or
112 EK413 : I will try and keep my personal opinion to my self next time... A pay "increase" freeze of 3 years was accepted by all QF staff while executives foun
113 EDICHC : I'm not claiming that unions are always on the side of the angels..far from it. There have been many rogue trade union leaders hoodwinking their memb
114 Post contains images shamrock604 : I am just shocked that in a country I was lead to believe was tolerant, open and embracing of other cultures that such unbelievable racism is accepta
115 EK413 : Glad someone agrees! EK413
116 Airvan00 : Isn't this is what Globalisation is all about. What happened to the clothing industry, the manufacturing industry and the motor industry in Australia
117 packersfan : Once again an entire statement finding no wrong in this scenario. Recommending people not to fly Qantas leading up to Xmas as done by the unions, wou
118 Post contains images Baroque : Well we did expect him/her (I know I know but I have to admit forgetting) to be precocious, but is it that long ago? You could be in for a suprise. A
119 EK413 : Once again I apologise for my remark which offended you, probably others a.netter's and prepared to lose face in the process however as for my opinio
120 mariner : Why? I said it doesn't mean he's won the war - as here: He got what he wanted, an end to the industrial action - assuming the unions stick to it. Exa
121 Post contains links NTLDaz : It's unfortunate that the Irish ( and much of Europe's ) economy has tanked but that is not the case here and workers should not be refraining from s
122 shamrock604 : Actually, Ireland is now growing again, slowly, but faster than any other EU economy bar latvia. My point was not that what happens elsewhere should
123 Baroque : My comment was it is being assumed that Joyce won the battle but if you look at reports of the FWA deliberations, you could come to the conclusion th
124 Baroque : From the ABC website: But ACCC chairman Rod Sims said Qantas had not gone far enough in its support and said passengers should be compensated for all
125 TruemanQLD : No. QF has been incredibly generous so far, and while you will probably return by saying they have only been 'covering their ass', they have not only
126 par13del : Just dealing with your last statement, who exactly do you expect to put the a/c back in the air? In your words, Joyce has stopped the insane unions,
127 Post contains links mariner : It doesn't matter how critical they are of him, he won the battle. He may not win the war, I don't know, I can't predict the future. I do believe tha
128 TruemanQLD : I think any possible sabotage will be IFE entertainment being sabotaged, but that is about it. Any aircraft that are sabotaged so that they are unsaf
129 Post contains links Baroque : Last time I flew on a 767 international flight, QF could not stop apologising for the inferior IFE system (compared with the scheduled A33x). So perh
130 Post contains links BoeingVista : Yep, what he said.. The genius that is Alan Joyce Virgin basks in the glow as brand Qantas crashes and burns Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/busines
131 par13del : So the PR being put out about union sabotage is meant to be detailed enough that regular pax will know that the sabotage is restricted to nuisance it
132 TruemanQLD : And again with the needless QF bashing that really adds absolutely nothing to the conversation, except outlines why we should all take any of your 'w
133 Baroque : But not forgotten. I have been in correspondence during these threads with someone over that very matter and we were both wondering who is doing this
134 BoeingVista : Both are RR (PM close your eyes now, what follows is not pretty) The maintenence is being farmed out to a facility in Hong Kong who also do Cathays R
135 ozglobal : Right. And in my experience the "equal opportunity insult zone" is a pretty strong part of the culture in UK, NZ and IR as well (although it would ne
136 Baroque : More or less, GOOD GRIEF but thanks for the (I think) unwelcome information!! And there were at least two spectacular ones before that and before the
137 Baroque : Indeed and about 35 years ago there was a very interesting two way study on this very topic when Esso set up a major operation in Aus and as part of
138 PlanesNTrains : Sorry, but as someone in "Management", it goes both ways. I'm not in a union environment, but regardless there are good and bad managers and good and
139 MD11Engineer : Since the Australian Association of Licenced Engineers, same as their British counterpart, of which I´m a member, only accepts licenced engineers or
140 Post contains links mariner : There's a fun assessment of Mr. Joyce in The Age today, largely confirming my assessment of him. It tackles the Irish question head-on, but positivel
141 shamrock604 : Trust me, i am not exactly proud of this little trio. But they are just that - three people. Not a representative sample! Aerlingus had a lovely indi
142 mariner : Oh, I think that is a pity. I think this little trio has dragged civil aviation kicking and screaming into the modern world. There is a - to me - a f
143 shamrock604 : Perhaps Mariner, but I feel the treatment of staff leaves a hell of a lot to be desired, certainly in MOL's case. You need to being people with you,
144 Post contains images mariner : I understand that staff feel that way, and it may be desirable, but everyone does it differently. MOL runs one of the most consistently profitable ai
145 bennett123 : Boeingvista If RR's local providers can not schedule the work, then surely their contract will allow the work to be done elsewhere?.
146 Post contains images shamrock604 : I agree strongly on this point, but I would argue that the three Irish airline CEO's mentioned are guilty of building up their very own elite. None o
147 Post contains images CXB77L : If only those striking QF workers had that same work ethic as you, this whole issue wouldn't even have reared its ugly head. Others in various QF gro
148 EDICHC : Noble sentiments, but how do you respond when management repay that loyalty by issuing redundancy notices and shipping your job overseas? To put a wo
149 col : Why do companies shift manufacturing etc overseas. To compete. I have established/managed Manufacturing sites in Thailand, China, USA and UK. There a
150 mariner : Everyone has to work that out for themselves. I've been made redundant - or, more factually, I've been sacked - more than once. When I was much young
151 thegeek : Re: QF and unions should sort it out for themselves with the Federal Government intervening. If that had happened, we would have had a lock out and po
152 EDICHC : That is of course your lifestyle choice, but career changes are not always easy or possible. Take for example a QF pilot or engineer of 15 years serv
153 mariner : I don't flame the unions for trying to protect them. I think that is what the unions should be doing, their raison d'etre, as you say. My concern - t
154 koruman : Can we please stop discussing Alan Joyce's nationality and his sexuality, of which I was unaware til Mariner raised it. This thread is important, beca
155 Post contains links mariner : If you want some clues as to how this is going to play out then - I think - you have to understand the psychology. That's how I work and I called his
156 koruman : Mariner, you and TruemanQLD are about the only people on this board who think that Joyce has won the battle, let alone the war. Most of the Qantas fre
157 Post contains links mariner : It isn't the first time in my life I've been on the outer. It's I am most at home. I'm not claiming he has won the war - but I've read a lot of peopl
158 jupiter2 : There have been no "winners" yet, just lots of losers, most of them customers. There are reports that DJ carried 30000 extra passengers during the gro
159 koruman : Actually yes, I do think that the likes of Joyce and Clifford are that stupid. Clifford is used to being able to bully unskilled workers, and use them
160 Post contains links mariner : Then there is no meeting ground between us and debate becomes pointless. As in "The Art of War," I never under-estimate the opposition And you don't
161 koruman : Mariner, the Qantas end of the market does not buy tickets on price alone, so the fundamental premise of that argument is false. The entire raison d'
162 mariner : I said you'd try and bat it down. And I disagree. I was going to fly Qantas Business on my last trip AKL-PER, but the price was out of line. I could
163 BoeingVista : This again? You only get to call this a win in your own opinion; lots disagree with you on this so please stop presenting it as fact as this one has
164 mariner : Ys, it is my opinion - isn't that why we're here? Yes, I am fully aware that many disagree with me. If you think I see it that way, then there's I ca
165 BoeingVista : The accounts say that it makes money but the problem with wholly owned subsidiaries is that you never know how they are apportioning costs. Also of c
166 dynamicsguy : I would have to disagree. The casual racism I've seen on display in the reactions to this episode, and in general in Australia, makes me cringe. Much
167 TruemanQLD : Doesnt understand labour relations or government relations, or just doesnt share your same views? A fairly loaded statement really. What evidence do
168 BoeingVista : I think this is just a distraction from the substantive issues here; I have stopped responding to these comments in the hope that they would just go
169 travelhound : I think a fair argument can be made that QANTAS probably won the battle. People on this forum may not like what happened, but the reality is there ar
170 Baroque : All the others but this most of all. From some legal opinions, the arbitration might not be nearly as constrained or predictable as some had assumed.
171 SInGAPORE_AIR : I am not interested in games of word-play, false naivity and dodging whole sentences in people's posts.
172 Lufthansa : Singapore Air, maybe you write us some more of those wonderful trip reports from a few years ago when you flew to Vietnam or The time you had to take
173 Post contains links Baroque : Ooops???? One of the most frequently asked questions surrounding the grounding of the Qantas fleet last Saturday afternoon was the point at which the
174 mariner : Qantas Group is profitable - $500 million - and the only problem area is internatioal - $200 million - so I don't see how Jetstar can be unprofitable
175 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Tha's like joining the movie half-way through and then proclaiming what it's all about. There's been more to the story leading up to this - on both s
176 BoeingVista : Well its humour, not directed at you though. I am sure that Mariner will answer if he feel like it but I have no clue what you mean by that comment.
177 Post contains links kiwiandrew : Count me in as one more. While there has been a lot of bad publicity I get the feeling that high yield pax business pax ( as opposed to J class leisu
178 shamrock604 : Finally! A voice of sense! I think people may be underestimating the Public's willingness to move on. In both Ireland and the UK, customers consisten
179 PlanesNTrains : Deleted for???? I'm not exactly clear on what I said that would be a problem to anyone other than perhaps yourself. Regardless, we are nearly 200 pos
180 BoeingVista : Just watching the Senate hearings into Qantas, this exact issue has just been raised by the aircraft engineers, Xenophon has asked for further detail
181 Zkpilot : Best quote I've seen so far from ABC: "Mike: It took Aer Lingus 5 years to recover from Joyce. Ansett never recovered."
182 Baroque : Bugger, just missed it taking Mrs Baroque to town. Probably be repeated, but you remind me to switch on 24. AJ had best watch or his feral Greek will
183 Post contains images shamrock604 : Agree completely. You will normally find the Business travel is far more understanding of any disruption. Given that the business traveller flies far
184 Baroque : And the largest QF corporate customer would be??? Might it be the Federal Government, you know the one that is spitting chips about the grounding?
185 Lufthansa : You can't be serious. That is nothing more than emotionally charge bile. You don't think the fact that Ansett had too many aircraft types (thank you
186 thegeek : I don't remember this. Sounds like a shocker! I'd also say that he's won the battle. The war might be a different matter though.
187 mariner : And the shares are up 2% today, with the Senate hearings. I thought it was all a bit of a fizz, I was expecting some real fireworks - although I miss
188 Post contains links koruman : Some fascinating quotes from "Deal then no deal: how Qantas stranded Labor", which is the Australian Financial Review's front page number two story to
189 Baroque : How can we know what was said until we see what the Senate writes, to quote an old saying about minutes. The other issue we cannot judge for a while,
190 Baroque : Most especially this bit, which more or less sets the stage for the atmospherics in the Senate hearing. Except copying out of that link keeps giving
191 BoeingVista : Actually it might have survived if Qantas was not allowed to veto Singapore Airlines buying it.
192 koruman : I don't expect any adverse consequences of these Senate hearings. At present the government is constrained in the lower house by its lack of a majorit
193 fiscal : It will take at least a few days to post the transcripts to the web site. When you see who the sponsers are for the bill, and the terms of reference,
194 mariner : I'm not attempting to judge or predict anything. I've done my dash. I would have thought the last thing the Feds would want to do is to be seen cause
195 thegeek : Hasn't it already been pointed out that would violate ICAO treaties. Or are you saying that it wouldn't!?
196 koruman : Yes, I am. It is the sovereign right of any country to determine whether foreign nationals can work in that country. Australia's government cannot sto
197 Baroque : @BV. It appears CASA will be called to the Senate committee in ??2 weeks. So we might learn more of engines and mx at that time. Hopefully CASA at lea
198 Post contains images bennett123 : Leave those onions alone
199 Post contains links Baroque : http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-...-qantas-unions-20111104-1n02h.html Suggests a Cabinet minister was/is not best pleased. That seems to contrast
200 ozglobal : If it transpires that AJ has lied through his teeth on this grounding initiative, which he proudly claims as his decision alone, then I hope we can a
201 fiscal : I know that transcripts of the Senate committee hearing is not yet available, but I had it reported to me that he initiated a board meeting to discus
202 thegeek : What are you referring to here? EK trans tasman? AKL base crew flying domestically for QF? Do BKK base crew fly domestically for JQ?
203 koruman : Do people think that the current blitz of Qantas PR and advertising is actually a good idea? The issue of whether or not the grounding was a good idea
204 jetfuel : Total cost of grounding estimated at $124 M. Was it worth it?
205 fiscal : Yes, I think it does. Sociologically speaking, I think the public will see this as a genuine attempt to say sorry for the action they took. The publi
206 Post contains links mariner : Indeed: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...antas-backfire-20111106-1n1vi.html "On Friday it was there, live on TV, for anyone who cared to look -
207 Post contains images CXB77L : Absolutely. If the grounding hadn't happened, the government might not have been "outraged" enough to get FWA to intervene and QF would still be faci
208 Zkpilot : Is that including the additional compensation of €700 per passenger per day in the EU that is likely to be enforced on Qantas? Or how about the 700
209 BoeingVista : Indeed you do. Did Senator Edwards really not know that the "sit down by the river and watch your enemies bodies float by" spiel was from a quote by
210 mariner : I could certainly wish that more people had read "The Art of War" - I think I said that earlier: But I don't think many Senators, on either side of t
211 BoeingVista : I have to agree actually, too partisan. Neither side of politics could stop grandstanding long enough to make an attempt to ask the hard questions of
212 mariner : And there we are in complete agreement. I don't like it, either, but I don't think it is too new. The Dismissal (and it's immediate aftermath) still
213 BoeingVista : Actually, the combination of forces blamed for the dismissal seem to be aligned again at this moment in time.. I hadn't thought abut the dismaissal f
214 fiscal : Sorry ZPilot, I don't mind you backing the other side, it creates good debate, but sometimes you do go on a bit....
215 mariner : Even if that is true (the combination of forces) the personalties are against it happening again - I think. It scared the strides off a lot of people
216 BoeingVista : Fair enough, but if I squint real hard I can see some constitutional issues involving her son in law (Can you imagine Bill Shorten rolls Gillard and
217 koruman : It would, but I suspect that Labor would save that for a rainy day, more precisely the start of the final run-in to the election. Qantas has always d
218 mariner : There's the other missing personality - Tony Abbott. He doesn't have Malcolm Fraser's patrician attitudes. He believes he was robbed and (I am told)
219 BoeingVista : Yep for him, its about personal vindication, as you say it shouldn't be. I presume nothing on this though there is anecdotal evidence that this was n
220 mariner : People have been saying that since Day One - but it is in terms of "there must be" rather than "there is." When did Alan Joyce work at Ryanair? I'll
221 Post contains images BoeingVista : Doh, Aerlingus. Am I supposed to be staring into your eyes as you repeat this [Edited 2011-11-06 22:15:19]
222 Airvan00 : look in to my eyes no not around the eyes
223 mariner : You could try, but I doubt it would work. If you don't want to hear, I can't make you listen. mariner
224 BoeingVista : I do understand that you mean he is the monkey not the organ grinder, while you are of course correct I have never been one for the only taking order
225 mariner : I haven't said he is only taking orders. It's about strategy, not tactics. But I don't think this is getting either of us very far. mariner
226 Post contains links and images Baroque : Indeed it has. And what AJ has certainly managed to do is a great job of polarization, even on these threads where normally none would have existed.
227 mariner : Hmmmm? mariner
228 Post contains links ozglobal : His words, not mine. He presented the decision to the press, as his and his alone, even if only for theatrical purposes, he seems proud of it. http:/
229 travelhound : I would suggest Allan Joyce was working in concert with his own HR, finance and marketing management teams, lawyers (internal and external), consulta
230 Baroque : For whatever reason, the QF dispute has two highly polarized sides. 1. The QF management, which might be Joyce plus the board, or be more finely divid
231 Post contains links Baroque : For three letters commenting on the Paul Sheehan article that Mariner cited: www.smh.com.au/national/letters/recy...-back-on-track-20111107-1n3qf.html
232 mariner : I've been puzzling what point you are trying to make here - but you go at Mr. Sheehan again in post #231, so I'll try and work it out. You seem to be
233 BoeingVista : You'd have thought so wouldn't you.. On Friday, QF was grounded on Saturday *groan* really? Ok, yep there were issues of national interest BUT Qantas
234 mariner : Okay, you think it's ridiculous. I shrug. At Qantas, the "supposedly better" candidate for CEO wasn't chosen, but I suppose you'll just deny there we
235 BoeingVista : Of course there were reasons, I don't pretend to know what they were, but they are known to have had different visions for the airline, AJ wanted a 2
236 travelhound : If my understanding of the process of politics are correct, discussions happen behind closed doors before they reach the public realm. If they do rea
237 Post contains links mariner : And then there is the Chairman and what he wanted from the CEO, and the Board. And even if Mr. Joyce were to go it is very hard for me to imagine tha
238 BoeingVista : Totally true. Well the unions didn't make the rules, the government did, this isn't some lefty conspiracy against the free market there was open cons
239 Post contains links Baroque : Keeping the analogy, Cricket Australia might be about to be as unreasonable as they were to Kato! But then who will turn out to be playing the role o
240 Post contains links fiscal : The transcript of the Senate committee meeting on the Qantas Act held on Friday are now available http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committ...craft_crew_20
241 koruman : This is the key issue. Borghetti pitched the idea of Qantas as a high-quality carrier like Singapore Airlines, able to command the sort of cost premi
242 fiscal : There was an interesting dialog about this in the Senate committee hearing - see my post above for the link. I know it has been done to death by A.Ne
243 Post contains links Baroque : Could I suggest that http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/s428.pdf Is a bit more direct. Reading what they wrote as opposed to hearing what
244 Baroque : Wonder how accurate this bit is from the Hansard op cit. Apparently we now know what QF pays for A380s and A320s (roughly): One A380, as an example, c
245 BoeingVista : Pilots union are going to challenge the FWA ruling on the grounds that the protected industrial action they were taking did not delay any passengers o
246 EK413 : Appears Mr Borghetti is proving his plan was the right choice... Go VA... EK413
247 Baroque : Parts of it should read like a Chaser script. Was the choice before the pilots one of appealing the decision or going to wearing red ties with small
248 Qfflyer : But after what I have heard about the local MX, I am not sure that that it is safer here....again I go back to the oil leaks and subsequent IFSDs for
249 Baroque : Which IFSD for the A380s (or the 747s for that matter) occurred after leaving an Australian landing? The Hansard quotes seem to refer to incidents oc
250 Qfflyer : These were the IFSDs that occured after the local MX removed oil pipes in order to do the boroscope inspections required by RR after the QF32 inciden
251 Baroque : No, pay is not automatically a guide. But you are avoiding the question "are an unusually large (or higher, or whatever) number of IFSDs after leavin
252 par13del : Instructions re-writtem by whom, RR? If other carriers had no problems with the instructions I assume the OEM would not do a re-write, unless there w
253 Baroque : I am unable to give evidence about the time needed to select red ties nor on the time taken to put them on. As for the announcements. They AFAICR are
254 Qfflyer : This may be the case, but IFSDs out of o/s ports may not be directly related to o/s maintenance, just as a failure out of Australia doesn't automatic
255 Baroque : We seem to be arguing two different points. You seem to be trying to demonstrate that A-based engineers are making unreasonable claims. I don't know w
256 Qfflyer : But really what has that got to do with anything unless it is proven to relate to immediate MX at that port? I don't understand how you relate an IFS
257 Baroque : Must introduce you to a gentleman called Occam, he had a razor. Or the law of parsimony. That should appeal to QF management. If IFSD after overseas s
258 2175301 : Concerning the maintenance rate.... we have to be careful to have a proper view of the data. Here in the US a number of years ago a TV station did an
259 Baroque : Agreed and so far we don't even have the data. It APPEARS from what is reported in Hansard that IFSD are more common after leaving overseas ports tha
260 Post contains links and images mariner : I see that Captain de Crespigny's position is causing Ben Sandilands to do intellectual acrobatics to try and justify his previous diatribes. He can't
261 travelhound : Funny enough the Ben Sandlind articles give me hope that the QANTAS strategy is finding traction. If we went back six months his blog would have cann
262 Post contains links Baroque : If you want the Qantas Asia plans canned try the SMH today. Identifying Asia as a high-growth market for air travel is a no-brainer. Choice of locati
263 Post contains images mariner : Thanks, but yes - I read that. Beset with "if's" and "buts" I thought. mariner
264 deconz : The SMH didn't do much research did they? Scoot is not going to be a premium carrier!!!
265 Post contains links Baroque : It appears that with Government assistance (which is where the PM might have cause to be annoyed) QF has been in negotiations for some time in Asia.
266 Post contains images mariner : Well (i) if the PM does anything that could be seen as disadvantageous to Qantas, that could backfire and there's a school of thought which thinks th
267 koruman : I do not have confidence that Qantas group management is capable of an accurate and astute assessment of market opportunities in Asia, and I think th
268 mariner : Nope. I've no idea what will happen. But if they are asking for concessions from an Asian nation, I would expect Australia to give some concessions i
269 koruman : Except that there is no suggestion here that the benefits would be for the Qantas Australia which is subject to the Qantas Sales Act. It is quite cle
270 mariner : They have to function under the Qantas Sales Act. That is the guarantee. I don't know why they would spin it off, but if it brings a big bunch of mon
271 cam747 : I'm unsure how RedQ will be subject to the Qantas Sale Act - but even if they do want to spin it off for a profit - good for them. They're a business
272 BoeingVista : Lets not pretend that Qantas was trying to he helpful to the PM, she owes Qantas nothing and Joyce knows it hence the amount of shutupitude he has di
273 AusA380 : I agree, my understanding "RedQ" would be like JetStar Asia, Japan and Vietnam in that they will be majority locally owned. I assume that QF will neg
274 Baroque : You think that ASEAN countries do not talk to each other? The world is divided into short noses and long noses when push comes to shove. Wish I thoug
275 BoeingVista : Yep, subtle that. As you say I Imagine that the PM, FM and transport ministers have been very active on Qantas behalf trying to finesse the internati
276 Baroque : Best part is the 1000 journos they stranded in Perth at CHOGM. Just a proportion of those will have been discombobulated I imagine. You would think a
277 Post contains links mariner : Who is pretending that? Since the one thing we all seem to be agreed on is that bilaterals are negotiated at government level, I don't think that is
278 koruman : There was a fascinating discussion on ABC NewsRadio this morning. The argument put forward was that Labor planned to introduce the Carbon Tax to bring
279 Post contains images Baroque : Oh I dunno! On the list, but not close to the top - YET! The arbitration phase of the FWA may cause QF about as much grief as it causes the unions an
280 Post contains links Baroque : I think we had some poll results earlier, so this is Hartcher's take on a H/Nielsen poll QANTAS has emerged as the chief villain after the dispute tha
281 koruman : Today's polls in the Fairfax media really show how badly Joyce and Clifford have misjudged the situation with their actions. 60% of the population sti
282 mariner : I'm not sure who else they could possibly "blame." It was an action by Qantas management. mariner
283 sydscott : LOL All it proves is that the Unions mis-judged their men and under-estimated Leigh Cliffords and Alan Joyces resolve. If only Geoff Dixon and Margar
284 Post contains images Zkpilot : Yeah the very same people that tried to sell QF to private equity before the GFC. QF would not exist if those two had had their way... but thanks for
285 Post contains links mariner : I never understood what the objections were to the takeover bid - other than, perhaps, it slightly undervalued Qantas - at the time. From the The Age
286 sydscott : What's your point? As Mariner states, the only thing wrong with the Private Equity bid was that at the end of the day it arguably under-valued Qantas
287 Zkpilot : It was set up so that Dixon and co could each walk away with tens of millions in their back pockets. Qantas was to take on BILLIONS of dollars of deb
288 mariner : It's the way private equity works. You may not like it - I don't particularly like it - but it isn't illegal and it can happen to almost any publicly
289 koruman : Anyone who wonders what would have happened to Qantas if the private equity bid had proceeded should look up what Messrs Hicks and Gillett did to Live
290 Baroque : Prolly, but this is a bit of a timeless test and certainly not a 50 overs effort. Certainly a bad start and personally I would be surprised if QF get
291 mariner : Not in my mind - nor, I imagine, any court of law. What else can a lock-out possibly be but an industrial action - by management? mariner
292 deconz : but such 'industrial action' can be initiated by either side. However, I accept that many folk (incorrectly) associate the term with Union activity.
293 Baroque : Wish I could disagree with you "k", please send razor blades!!!! What Mariner says is true but it is a bit like a Charles Waterstreet argument, milud
294 Post contains links BoeingVista : As well as undervaluing the company the terms of the offer also unreasonably enriched the management and venture capitalists at the expense of the sh
295 sydscott : The only assets that have been transferred to JQ are a handful of A332's and some Indonesia rights. JQ took over from AO when it ceased operating and
296 Baroque : But do you think it was acceptable to (whatever word you want) allow/invite that sort of a fate and at the same time allow the loss of the capital re
297 mariner : I can't do much more than shrug and repeat myself. Leveraged buy-outs are not illegal and terms like "unreasonable" and "rort" are highly subjective.
298 TruemanQLD : Beat me too it: While this might not be the best PR for QF, was grounding the airline ever going to be popular? They might have been able to reduce t
299 Post contains links SA7700 : This thread will be locked for further contributions. Please take note that posts added after the thread lock, will be removed for housekeeping purpos
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