Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Is Aeroflot The New Oldest Airline In The World?  
User currently onlinenickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1485 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 13374 times:

A Sydney Morning Herald article asks if Aeroflot has replaced Qantas as the longest continuously operating airline in the world as a result of the Qantas fleet grounding at the weekend. I think they may have a point...
http://www.smh.com.au/business/russi...ntas-grounding-20111101-1mtw6.html

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2741 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13273 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

I always thought KLM was the oldest?
Blue



You push down on that yoke, the houses get bigger, you pull back on the yoke, the houses get bigger- Ken Foltz
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6748 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13256 times:

Did KLM operate during WWII?

User currently offlineTN486 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 914 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13217 times:

QF did not cease to exist, so whats your point? QANTAS is a group of companies, and though mainline was grounded for a couple of days, other flying entities wern't, so it now seems to me we could indulge in a hairsplitting exercise.

[Edited 2011-11-01 19:02:01]


remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13178 times:

Quoting TN486 (Reply 3):
QF did not cease to exist, so whats your point?

Agreed. Their planes just didn't fly for a couple days. The airline didn't go anywhere. Plus, QantasLink still operated if you want to count that...



Flying refined.
User currently offlinePanAm788 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 291 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 13160 times:

"Longest continuously operated" has nothing to do with age. The date of which an airline is founded is stagnant. ie My younger brother can never become older than me. Title is a bit misleading/doesn't make sense.


heroes get remembered but legends never die
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6748 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13061 times:

Quoting nickofatlanta (Thread starter):
asks if Aeroflot has replaced Qantas as the longest continuously operating airline in the world

Presumably the paper's slightly tongue in cheek, but of course it's true, Qantas hasn't operated continuously any more. Had they ever had a strike?


User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8667 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13049 times:

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 5):
My younger brother can never become older than me.

I think he'll find that a real possibility if you happen to die earlier than him.  

Which sort of proves the point: Qantas stopped operating due to a management decision, which is different from e.g. groundings due to ash clouds or strikes. So while the company is still the same as before, it can no longer boast continuous operations - the people in power decided to drop the relay baton.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 13007 times:

Yea, I thought KL was the oldest airline at 90-something years old.


“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21456 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12995 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 7):

It is no different than a strike. Lockouts and strikes are industrial actions. Either both count or neither do.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineHomsAR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12806 times:

What's the definition of "continuously operating?"

Do you always have to have a plane in the air? Do you just have to have at least one plane flying per day? Per week?

Since the airspace was shut down after September 11, 2001, does that mean no US airline has been continuously operating for more than 10 years?

This is one of those things that could be debated until the cows come home (and I don't have any cows, so...).



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently onlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7497 posts, RR: 32
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 12747 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 2):
Did KLM operate during WWII?

Several KLM aircraft were interred in the UK. KLM crews and aircraft flew most of the Bristol-Lisbon route flights.

Those flights were done under the BOAC label and that is the basis of Qantas as the world's oldest "Continually operated airline".

But the 'merger' between KLM and Air France is considered the end of KLM as a separate airline by some folks. That would be the basis of a claim that Qantas is the world's oldest airline.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2946 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12615 times:

The airline was stilling running. Those staff who weren't part of the action were still working, and QF flights were still operating across the Tasman (via Jetconnect). The title stands I say...

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7112 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 12599 times:

besides given that the Ash Cloud grounded KL/SU aircraft for longer than the QF strikes it stands to reason that they are eliminated from the list as well as QF.

AV started in 1919 as well, and didn't have ash clouds or world wars. but the point is moot. because QF is still going until it is driven into the ground by Joyce and his staff... 


User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1054 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12538 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):

The airline was stilling running. Those staff who weren't part of the action were still working, and QF flights were still operating across the Tasman (via Jetconnect). The title stands I say...

   You are correct. I worked as a mechanic at Northwest Airlines for 37 years. Northwest was continuously finding themselves on strike. Northwest was called "Cobra Airlines" because "Northwest Airline struck at anything."
The FAA used to call Northwest "the Non Working Airline." Northwest became the oldest airline in the United States when Delta Airlines "bought" Western Airlines. Delta then "merged" with Northwest Airline and now may be the oldest airline in the United States. KLM is now part of Air France, so Qantas is the oldest airline, work stoppage or not.
Aeroflot was originally part of Communist Russia. Did it ever get shut down.? It was originally run by the Communist government and now has been dissected into many bits. It is not the same airline. I think this discussion is silly and somewhat pointless.   


User currently offlineCheco77 From Peru, joined Oct 2004, 1345 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12443 times:

I know KL is pretty old, but OK is very old too. I have to do some research, since I remember reading somewhere that they were very very old....

Adam

The info is as follows, from CSA website: (http://www.csa.cz/en/portal/company/about_us/history.htm)

Czech Airlines is one of the oldest airlines in Europe. We have provided services to passengers since 1923.

CZECH AIRLINES was founded as Czechoslovak State Airlines on the 6th of October 1923. The first transport flight from Prague to Bratislava took place on the 29th of October the same year. On that trip, pilot Karel Brabenec flew the distance of 321 km with an Aero A-14 (Brandenburg) bi-plane.

Certainly not the oldest in the world, but very old yes!  Smile

[Edited 2011-11-01 22:51:42]


Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
User currently offlineLONGisland89 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12384 times:

Quoting HomsAR (Reply 10):
Since the airspace was shut down after September 11, 2001, does that mean no US airline has been continuously operating for more than 10 years?

Exactly! What is the definition of continuously operating? I'd bet that MX personnel at AA who worked long hours around the clock following 9-11, clearing out MEL lists on hundreds of aircraft, would argue a claim that they weren't 'operating.'

If you think of it logically, any kind of work being done at an airline is conceptually critical to the operation or somehow supports it. Therefore, if anyone punched into work during the grounding and performed work to support an aviation operation (Qantas) I'd say the carrier was still operating.

Hmmmm, but on the other hand, an airline's critical function is transporting people/goods etc, so if that isn't occurring, the airline really isn't operating. Yeah, this is a tough one. My head hurts, time for bed.

[Edited 2011-11-01 23:11:36]

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2946 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 12046 times:

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 16):
Exactly! What is the definition of continuously operating? I'd bet that MX personnel at AA who worked long hours around the clock following 9-11, clearing out MEL lists on hundreds of aircraft, would argue a claim that they weren't 'operating.'

If you think of it logically, any kind of work being done at an airline is conceptually critical to the operation or somehow supports it. Therefore, if anyone punched into work during the grounding and performed work to support an aviation operation (Qantas) I'd say the carrier was still operating.

Hmmmm, but on the other hand, an airline's critical function is transporting people/goods etc, so if that isn't occurring, the airline really isn't operating. Yeah, this is a tough one. My head hurts, time for bed.

I'd say any airline that is in operation without extended periods of inactivity. Some of the airlines that stopped services for months and years during the wars definitely have not continuously operated, but a grounding or other shorter term period of inactivity (ie a few days to a few weeks) doesn't really count... In those situations it's not a deliberate move to stop operations for an extended period, but rather a short term issue fueled by other factors (strikes, attacks etc).


User currently offlinebralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11933 times:

Though not operating under the SNETA/SABENA name anymore, the foundation of Brussels Airlines (IATA: SN, Ticketcode 082) was laid back on March 31, 1919 when SNETA was founded. On May 23, 1923 SNETA was succeeded by SABENA which was succeeded by SN Brussels Airlines in 2002 and Brussels Airlines in 2007. Technically the roots of Brussels Airlines go back for 92 years.

However, the oldest airline still operating today is SAS which was founded partially through Det Danske Luftfartselskab which was established on October 29, 1918.

The roots of Air France goes back to December 25, 1918 when the Société des lignes Latécoère was founded which would become Air France later.

KLM was founded on October 7, 1919 and is today the oldest airline operating under a single name. All others were rebranded throughout the years. Though the mainline was stopped through the second worldwar parts of KLM remained operating in the Caribbean and the Antilles.

Qantas is a close second and was founded on November 16, 1920

Aeroflot is close being 3th and was founded on February 9, 1923


So the oldest airlines still operating today are:

1) SAS (as Det Danske Luftfartselskab)
2) Air France (as Société des lignes Latécoère)
3) Brussels Airlines (as SNETA / SABENA / SN Brussels Airlines)
4) KLM
5) Qantas
6) Aeroflot

If we look at airlines with their original name:

1) KLM
2) Qantas
3) Aeroflot


User currently offlinejoelyboy911 From New Zealand, joined Oct 2009, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 11933 times:

I believe it has more to do with brands than actual companies. Company structures are changing all the time. Qantas can only really claim being the worlds longest used airline brand. Whereas KLM is the oldest airline brand still flying, though the brand's use was interrupted during the war. That's my interpretation at least.


Flown: NZ, NY, SJ, QF, UA, AC, EI, BE, TP, AF
User currently offlinetu204 From Russia, joined Mar 2006, 1139 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11619 times:

Quoting bralo20 (Reply 18):
If we look at airlines with their original name:

1) KLM
2) Qantas
3) Aeroflot

Strike Aeroflot from that list. The original name was Dobrolet for the first several years of existance  



I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
User currently offlinebralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11515 times:

Quoting joelyboy911 (Reply 19):
Whereas KLM is the oldest airline brand still flying, though the brand's use was interrupted during the war. That's my interpretation at least.

They stopped flying in The Netherlands during WWII though they remained flying overseas so they have operated continuesly   But yeah, in their "home" country they didn't fly...


User currently offlineVAAengineer From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 10925 times:

Quoting bralo20 (Reply 18):
So the oldest airlines still operating today are:

1) SAS (as Det Danske Luftfartselskab)
2) Air France (as Société des lignes Latécoère)
3) Brussels Airlines (as SNETA / SABENA / SN Brussels Airlines)
4) KLM
5) Qantas
6) Aeroflot

Where does AV fit in this list ?



God's Gift To Aviation
User currently offlinebralo20 From Belgium, joined May 2008, 621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 10771 times:

Quoting VAAengineer (Reply 22):

Where does AV fit in this list ?

Oops, mea culpa, forgot them, they are just behind KLM.

Founded December 5, 1919 as SCADTA.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9689 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9693 times:

No matter how you look at it, KLM is the oldest airline still operating. They are still run as a seperate brand under their own name and colors so they didn't cease to exist after the merger. AV is the second oldest airline in the world.

A388


25 av757 : Avianca Colombia has its roots from SCADTA and was founded on December 5 1919 and has operated continously for the last 91 years of its operation. AV7
26 Post contains images bralo20 : Not exactly correct, they are indeed the oldest airline operating under 1 single brand. However, the oldest airline still operating today is SAS foll
27 richierich : The definition of continually operating is a bit arbitrary because there is no standard definition. Personally, I believe that to be 'continually oper
28 n729pa : I feel like the oldest Airliners forum reader after reading all that lot..... I think what most people look at is the 2nd list. The first one is reall
29 Navigator : Finnair started as Aero OY in 1923, where do they fit in this?
30 A388 : I agree with you as well. KLM indeed is the oldest airline around. A388
31 Post contains images EPA001 : I could not agree more. But it is more important how these "old airlines" are operating today. I fly KLM every week, and they are doing OK. Although
32 rfields5421 : The dates of founding (not first flight) are: 1918 - Oct 29 - Det Danske Luftfartselskab - service stopped in WWII - 1946 combined with two others to
33 Checo77 : If we take it by which airline kept their original name, Czech Airlines ends up 4th oldest? Am I getting this right?[Edited 2011-11-02 13:47:39]
34 EDICHC : So bankruptcy and dissolution of the company, no service for 3 months, take over of subsidiary (in other words a different company buying an asset of
35 Viscount724 : I agree. Just like the current LX is a new company, not a continuation of bankrupt Swissair. LX was built on the base of regional carrier Crossair, i
36 aviateur : An "operational gap?" It's a WHOLLY DIFFERENT ENTITY. Brussels Airlines is no more Sabena than an apple is an orange, I'm sorry. That's why I hate th
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Is This The New Chilean Airline (Gstar)? posted Sat Feb 19 2005 13:46:02 by Aero
Is Schreiner In The New Belgian Airline? posted Wed Nov 14 2001 01:39:20 by Schreiner
New Large Airline In The States? posted Fri Oct 15 2004 21:54:45 by Ual747
How Is DL Doing On The New OPS To The Islands? posted Mon Jan 20 2003 02:05:47 by Deltadude8
New Huge Airline In Europe? AF-KLM-IB posted Thu May 21 2009 07:02:40 by Iberia747256B
New Cargo Airline In Colombia...COSMOS! posted Tue Jan 8 2008 01:37:25 by CV990
New 737 Airline In Nauru posted Thu Oct 12 2006 21:18:43 by MIAMIx707
New Lowcost Airline In Morocco - Jet4You... posted Wed Dec 28 2005 19:01:34 by Beaucaire
New Japanese Airline In March 2006! posted Sun Apr 17 2005 16:13:30 by Cessna172RG
A New Cargo Airline In Colombia posted Thu Apr 14 2005 02:34:53 by MATURRO727