falstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29 Posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4791 times:
I was listening to 760 WJR, in Detroit, this morning on my way to work and they reported the results of the Yinvestigation into the Yak-42 crash that killed the Lokomotiv Haroslavi hockey team, back on 9-7-11. It appears one of the pilots accidentally applied the brakes during take off. This story was fairly well reported in Detroit because three of the dead were connected with the Detroit Red Wings.
nema From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4661 times:
I was hearing this report on the BBC radio this morning. So the investigation says the brakes were applied in error during take off. The BBC report actually worded it that the brakes were accidentally caught by one of the pilots.
This leads me to ask,
1) Is it really that easy to do in this particular cockpit type, to catch the brake control?
2) Also, are you not immediately aware that you've done this both by realising you have physically caught the control and the aircraft's sudden response?
3) Considering the above, is it not possible to cancel the action to restore stability?
As a layman, these questions just come to mind, there are obviously reasons somewhere why the aircraft wasn't reconfigured immediately so as to fly without hindrance. Has such an error happened before and, in other cockpit types?
There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
Seems the crew was in transition from YAK 40 to YAK 42 and types have differing brake pedal designs. Unknowingly, brakes were applied during the takeoff run. Also, according to the report many other crew errors: drugs, intersection takeoff with a tailwind, not aborting takeoff, training, no crew coordination, and on and on...
How is it that the report is complete so soon after the crash? Seems it takes years to complete these reports in the west.
Fiedman From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 210 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4198 times:
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 2): How is it that the report is complete so soon after the crash? Seems it takes years to complete these reports in the west.
Depends on the complexity of the crash and how much wreckage can be collected and analyzed, in this case when looking at the CDR they can see that the pilot applied the breaks during the take-off roll with in turn caused the aircraft to not achieve proper take-off speed then the pilot pulling back hard on the stick to achieve lift-off. And with various eye witnesses reporting that the plane fell from the sky, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put 2 + 2 together to determine what happened
AirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4157 times:
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 2): brakes were applied during the takeoff run. Also, according to the report many other crew errors: drugs, intersection takeoff with a tailwind, not aborting takeoff, training, no crew coordination, and on and on...
Also, I remember the speculation after the incident about the age and maintenance quality of Russian aircraft; in the end none of that mattered, the fault was in the humans, both those in the cockpit and those setting up (or not) the safety culture and training regime in the airline. Kind of reminds me of the AF 447 threads where tail separation and other wild theories were being tossed around. Again, in the end human error seemed to be the (too obvious) cause.
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6133 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3584 times:
Phenobarbital is mentioned by being used by the FO, but I can´t remember if he was PF. Why would he have been taking phenobarbital? I could not find any speculation on the Av herald report. Anybody here knows how it is used medically? I find it hard to believe anyone would take that as a recreative drug.
crownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1865 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3382 times:
And how sad is it, that the Russian authorities then want to ground every Yak-42, TU-134, TU-154, IL-62 and every other Russian legacy airliner, when nine out ten times, there is no fault w/ the aircraft. I happens every time, one of classics crashes.
vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3964 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3082 times:
Crew rostering had been done without consideration of important professional aspects, for example the crew consisted of two leaders with the authority of the first officer being higher than the captain's
trigged From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3009 times:
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 10): Crew rostering had been done without consideration of important professional aspects, for example the crew consisted of two leaders with the authority of the first officer being higher than the captain's
Quoted from avherald - what does it mean?
If I am reading it correctly, the pilot acting as First Officer was higher in rank than the pilot acting as Captain. It would be akin to a Major sitting in the left seat and a Colonel sitting in the right seat.
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6133 posts, RR: 30
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2409 times:
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 9): This could be very worrying, but it depends if his medical condition is under control or not.
Thank you for the link. I understand its uses for epilepsy. I had a couple of friends who used it for that. But then what are the rules for a pilot with epilepsy regarding his medical in Russia? Even if it is under control, can he still operate a transport category aircraft?
The other issue I have is that since it is also used to treat benzodiazepine withdrawal, which are in turn used to treat alcohol withdrawal symptoms, particularly DTS, I´m wondering if he did not have a severe alcoholism problem he was trying to keep in check.
No, where I live, barbiturates are incredibly difficult to come by. As an epileptic, for example, you have to have shown to be non-responsive to benzos and then again the prescription can only be filled by a special doctor who has a license to prescribe such drugs, and they are only available at hospital pharmacies. In the black market (your friendly corner drug dealer), they are practically non-existent, as they´ve also been displaced by benzos, particularly Clonazepam.
I ask all this, because according to the Avherald report, the MAK found a lnk between the brake pressure he unknowingly applied and the phenobarbital use. Could then this not turn also into a criminal investigation?