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B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 1  
User currently offlineodwyerpw From Mexico, joined Dec 2004, 851 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 28515 times:

Has there been any recent development along 737Max front?

Has anyone heard any announcements related to configuration or sales compaigns?

Boeing have today released an update which you can find here

Boeing

SEATTLE, Nov. 3, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) announced today that the 737 MAX program has selected a 68-inch fan diameter for the optimized engine design that will provide the lowest fuel burn and operating costs in the single-aisle market.

The 737 MAX continues to receive overwhelming acceptance from customers with more than 600 order commitments received to date from eight airlines, up from 496 airplanes from five airlines when the program launched in August.


[Edited 2011-11-03 14:16:41 by PanAm_DC10]


Quiero una vida simple en Mexico. Nada mas.
294 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30877 posts, RR: 86
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 28573 times:
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Boeing states they have MoUs for around 500 units.

Some are speculating Boeing will not formally sign orders until 2012 to launch the new year with a huge splash since Airbus has already unequivocally won the 2011 orders race thanks to the A320neo launch.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12424 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 28245 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Some are speculating Boeing will not formally sign orders until 2012 to launch the new year with a huge splash since Airbus has already unequivocally won the 2011 orders race thanks to the A320neo launch.

Geez, given the world economy, I'd get the contracts signed and the deposit checks in hand tuit sweet and to heck with the orders race!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12464 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 28105 times:
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Boeing seems to be "very relaxed" about it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...ing-aircraft-idUSLDE7A001T20111101

Quote:
Boeing is likely to decide where its revamped 737 Max will be built in 6-8 months, but has no timeline yet for when provisional orders for the plane will become firm ones, its top marketing executive said on Tuesday.

...

In terms of commitments to orders, that's going to be on a case by case basis," he said, adding that work was ongoing on the configuration, on optimising the engine and defining what range the aircraft would provide.

He declined to give a timeline.

I'd expect at least some news (even if no order announcements) at Dubai in a couple of weeks.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineWarpSpeed From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 587 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 27966 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 3):
Boeing seems to be "very relaxed" about it.

Ironically, they seem to have a Type "B" personality vs. a Type "A" for Airbus.  



DaHjaj jaj QaQ Daghajjaj !!!!
User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2699 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 27853 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
Geez, given the world economy, I'd get the contracts signed and the deposit checks in hand tuit sweet and to heck with the orders race!

That's what I would do as well but who knows what is going on behind the curtains.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30877 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 27332 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
Geez, given the world economy, I'd get the contracts signed and the deposit checks in hand tuit sweet and to heck with the orders race!

Signed orders "today" that are then cancelled "tomorrow" due to economic difficulties are no different, in the end, then orders never placed due to economic difficulties.

Sure, Boeing might earn some interest on the deposits before they were refunded, but...


User currently onlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3393 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 27251 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Sure, Boeing might earn some interest on the deposits before they were refunded, but...

and Boeing might have deposits on those 500 frames the same size as if they were a real order. Deposits securing early slots that major airlines will not want slipping away.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 27224 times:

Quoting odwyerpw (Thread starter):
Has there been any recent development along 737Max front?

Not that I've heard. It might be tacit confirmation that the 737MAX launched this summer was a very loosely defined concept with most of the details left to be filled in. I still think that they said that it would be a 737 with new engines and didn't go much beyond that. Now we know it will have LEAP-X, but that's about as much as is known for sure.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
I'd get the contracts signed and the deposit checks in hand tuit sweet and to heck with the orders race!

And before Boeing, Airbus, or the engine people give any solid performance numbers. Of course, depending on who orders it, that deposit money could be 787 compensation.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 26532 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
It might be tacit confirmation that the 737MAX launched this summer was a very loosely defined concept with most of the details left to be filled in. I still think that they said that it would be a 737 with new engines and didn't go much beyond that. Now we know it will have LEAP-X, but that's about as much as is known for sure.

Might be a good year to go into business in the US selling perpetual motion machines? They would be nearly as well defined and if deposits are being put on series of "mights" and "maybes", well wow.

It is all a measure of how much is invested in a particular type of airplane rather than how well it performs. I wonder if the main guarantee given has been a low weight, or at least lower than a NEO.


User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 10000 posts, RR: 96
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 26519 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 7):
and Boeing might have deposits on those 500 frames the same size as if they were a real order. Deposits securing early slots that major airlines will not want slipping away.

Without a firm contract? Unlikely, I would have thought..

Rgds


User currently offlineqfa787380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 26382 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Might be a good year to go into business in the US selling perpetual motion machines? They would be nearly as well defined and if deposits are being put on series of "mights" and "maybes", well wow.

So, you don't believe Boeing have 496 commitments apparently all to be firmed for the Max? I suspect it is very well defined with only a few is to dot and ts to cross. Admittedly, this has taken a month or 2 longer than expected but I think it's pretty close.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5501 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 26146 times:

Well, it's interesting the pressure that they were under just a few short months ago to present their option, and now it's almost as if no one cares anymore. Euphoria, euphoria, euphoria...

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15730 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 26121 times:

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 11):
So, you don't believe Boeing have 496 commitments apparently all to be firmed for the Max?

I think they have commitments, but they don't have orders because there isn't really anything dialed in enough to order at the moment.

Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 11):
I suspect it is very well defined with only a few is to dot and ts to cross.

Perhaps by now they are getting a better idea and orders may not be too far away, but I think Boeing had little idea what their plane would be when they launched it. They needed something just solid enough that American could commit to it, lest it be an Airbus sweep, and tossed it on the table just quick enough to get a token order since their deal was that good. At that point, I believe it was a re-engined 737 and nothing really more specific than that.

And that American order not only scared them away from a new plane, but scared Boeing so far back into their shell that they may not make it as long with a re-engined plane as they would hope and may be backed into a corner come the beginning of the next decade.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 25858 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 12):
Euphoria, euphoria, euphoria...

Seems that way. Of course we could have misheard and it was actually "Euphorbia, Euphorbia, Euphorbia" as part of a plan to develop synthetic aircraft fuels? Are Poinsettia plants de rigeur in offices at Boeing by any chance?

I wonder how the work is being divided up for the Leap engines between those for the NEO and those for the MAX. One assumes that each airframer will be taking a keen interest not only in "their own" version but also in the "other" version.

Presumably with its timing B is hoping to benefit from any mis-steps the NEO version might have.


User currently offlineflyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 576 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 25665 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 14):
I wonder how the work is being divided up for the Leap engines between those for the NEO and those for the MAX. One assumes that each airframer will be taking a keen interest not only in "their own" version but also in the "other" version.

Presumably with its timing B is hoping to benefit from any mis-steps the NEO version might have.



I do not believe that Boeing is hoping for Airbus mis-steps,this would be rather stupid and Boeing reality folks are not that stupid. Boeing is clearly on the hook here. Airbus has pretty much a free choice with the engine sizing to an optimum. Boeing is limited and they either compensate with airframe improvements on cost of more modification on subsequent higher investment, And still Airbus could add the one or other percent on frame improvement if they would spend 1 b more.

The battle is behind the scene. CFM will have trouble to commit to fuel burns similar to the Airbus version and the more they do this the more Airbus and probably the Airbus NEO CFM customers will ask CFM: you better give us the same core, we do not accept to be treated as second valued customer. Warn you.

And that is what I believe is behind the scene: To get the specs in the range as they announced it, Boeing may have to commit to a higher investments (e.g. for getting a bigger fan under the wing), and that balance agreement needs more time and Boeing internal agreement.

Regards

Flyglobal


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 25556 times:

Boeing, ( not to loose faith for their change of minds ) treats the 737MAX just as a normal modification of its successfull 737 family. This is contrary to Airbus, who makes a big deal around it to justify the increase of the price.

So it ends as expected - Boeing just makes this major improvement among the many others, gets a slightly lower advantage from it, but does not increase the price, Airbus makes a big show around it, gets a better margin per aircraft - and in the end the relative market share remains and everybody is happy.


User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 1557 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 25162 times:

How far along the development road is the A320. It might not be as far as we believe.
Airbus have given themselves a lot of time for an "updater", and have shown their hand so Boeing now have something to better.

It still begs the question
Why did Airbus launch the neo now anyway? They had great sales albeit at lower than desirable margins..
They have replaced certainty with an amount of uncertainty, and given their rival a target to better.?

Whilw enthusiasts may crow about the NEO, there is doubt as to whether it was really a good nstrategic move.

I don't know any detasils of the 737MAX that other don't also know, but it could turn out to be a very competitive aircraft even with LEAP engines.

Ruscoe


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30877 posts, RR: 86
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 24673 times:
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The latest rumors making the rounds is CFM will go with a 68" fan for the LEAP-1XB.

User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 24569 times:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
Might be a good year to go into business in the US selling perpetual motion machines? They would be nearly as well defined and if deposits are being put on series of "mights" and "maybes", well wow.

  

At the current level of definition, the commitments are likely to be close to letters of intent without any deposits.

I think the MAX was invented only in the very moment that Boeing realized they were going to lose the American deal. I think they are still struggling to figure how to define a configuration around what their salesmen offered. And how to design and build that within the tight cost brackets they got from the B board.

I believe all they have right now is some high-level requirements and the tech portfolios of the 737RS, 737RE and NG+.


User currently offlineTristarsteve From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 3999 posts, RR: 34
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 24404 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
Geez, given the world economy, I'd get the contracts signed and the deposit checks in hand

But you can't sign an order until you know what you are getting. An order is a big thick document. It details the options and parts of the aircraft precisely. It will say you are having Goodrich brakes and Honeywell IRS etc etc.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
The latest rumors making the rounds is CFM will go with a 68" fan for the LEAP-1XB.

and we don't even know what size the engine is!

So there cannot be any orders yet.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12464 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 24374 times:
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Quoting qfa787380 (Reply 11):
I suspect it is very well defined with only a few is to dot and ts to cross. Admittedly, this has taken a month or 2 longer than expected but I think it's pretty close.

They still don't know which size engine they'll use. There seems to be several things that Boeing still doesn't know at this point.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
I think they have commitments, but they don't have orders because there isn't really anything
dialed in enough to order at the moment.

  

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 17):
Why did Airbus launch the neo now anyway? They had great sales albeit at lower than desirable margins..

And now they have even better sales.    Which also answers the first part.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 17):
there is doubt as to whether it was really a good nstrategic move

Doubt?   

The sales that have been generated in less than one year would already suggest that there is actually no doubt whatsoever. That Boeing has U-turned from their "We're going to build a new plane" position to mimic Airbus simply confirms it was the right decision.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinerheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2222 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 24352 times:

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 19):
I believe all they have right now is some high-level requirements and the tech portfolios of the 737RS, 737RE and NG+.

I believe they know quite well how far they get by investing little. They have studied this for years and the conclusion has led them to serious considerations of abandoning the 737.

But as the 737MAX no longer is just one of different possible strategies, they now have to resolve the issues. As you say the minimum requirements probably don't give much room to maneouvre. Boeing simply has to deliver as much changes until the gap to the A320NEO is largely closed. I am quite curious whether the low-effort approach will proove as wishful thinking or become reality....


User currently offlineflyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 576 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 24221 times:

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 17):
How far along the development road is the A320. It might not be as far as we believe.
Airbus have given themselves a lot of time for an "updater", and have shown their hand so Boeing now have something to better.



According To my understanding it is as far as Pratt and CFM are with their engines.
Airbus itself is busy (probably completed) with integrating the shark lets for 2012 and adding the pylons fitting to the engine and adopt all the controls interfaces (hardware and software) shouldn't be a big deal.

In case of a 'wonder frame' of fhe 737-7/8/9 I believe that Airbus would still be able to pull some more expensive frame update for an additional 2% Fuel burn improvement out the sleeves.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 19):
I think they are still struggling to figure how to define a configuration around what their salesmen offered. And how to design and build that within the tight cost brackets they got from the B board.



I am fully with you there and that is what I believe takes that long and longer then expected to finish the spec. And it may still take some time, as a 68 fan (following lightsaber) can't be the optimum for this thrust class when the engine makers come to other conclusions when not limited with under wing space.

I also doubt that the nearly 500 sales interests are anywhere near real sales. However if the find a spec as announced per Marketing, sales could firm up pretty quick, let alone 500.

They are busy all time to stay with their modifications within the financial limits the board gave them.

I wouldn't even be surprised, if Boeing comes back to an all new Narrow Body after all discussions.

regards

flyglobal


User currently offline328JET From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 24120 times:

The orders are pending because Boeing is still in a very early phase of defining the details of the MAX.

I, personally, have no clue how they want to achieve a lower fuel burn than Airbus with the NEO with a smaller engine diameter...


25 Burkhard : There will be applications where the fuel burn might be lower due to the lower weight of the smaller body, add the 3% marketing and it is enough for
26 SeJoWa : I wonder if it would be aerodynamically sensible to increase dihedral of the wing from the root to the engine mount points.
27 seabosdca : In the same ways that the current 737NG sometimes outperforms the current A32s despite a smaller engine diameter.
28 PanAm_DC10 : Boeing chooses 68-inch fan diameter for 737 MAX engines Order commitments for new 737 MAX now stand at more than 600. More coming on Twitter
29 JAL : Beside American, has anyone ordered it? I still think Boeing should have come out with an all new model.
30 Post contains links rheinwaldner : See here a source http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2011...-than-600-commitments-for-737-max/ Extending the landing gear is the first evidence of doing
31 Post contains links and images Revelation : Flightblogger reports "Albaugh says one control surface on 737 MAX will be fly-by-wire". We know 747-8 has fly-by-wire ailerons and spoilers. Wonder
32 tistpaa727 : Where did you read this in the link you provided? Or is it that a 68" fan requires lengthened MLG?
33 Stitch : The slide says they are strengthening the MLG, not lengthening it. It sounds like Boeing might be considering TOW increases to offer additional fuel
34 Post contains links tistpaa727 : I just saw Jon posted a story saying the nose gear is lengthened 6-8 inches. Looks like Jim Albaugh said it during the presentation. http://www.fligh
35 Stitch : Thanks. Spoilers per the FG article.
36 Post contains links and images scbriml : Confirmed by another source: http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n...-737max-will-have-61-inch-fan.html Maybe they should proof-read their articles? W
37 Revelation : Another interesting quote from the article: Seems he thinks that Airbus has got its maths wrong? There's a big difference between 68" and 81", especi
38 Post contains images Stitch : Sounds more like Airbus has the solution optimized for their airframe and Boeing has the solution optimized for their airframe. After all, if engine
39 Post contains images scbriml : Or maybe he's just painting the picture that way because Boeing has no other realistic choice? To quote the old song, accentuate the positive.
40 Post contains links WarpSpeed : Guy Norris quotes Albaugh as saying 68 inches is the right decision for "us." That would suggest his comments originate from the perspective of the e
41 Post contains images Stitch : Honestly, Boeing wanted to go with a bigger fan - on a new airplane, no less. Customers said "we won't wait - give us the current frame with what you
42 Post contains images astuteman : Your confidence just reminds me of the intensity of the scepticism you seemed to display when the A320NEO was just launched. I didn't spot when the r
43 Post contains links fpetrutiu : "SEATTLE, Nov. 3, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing (NYSE: BA) announced today that the 737 MAX program has selected a 68-inch fan diameter for the optimize
44 Post contains images lightsaber : The engines are the long lead item. They've had a few years head start over the LEAP-X. It amazes me how much is customized. Aircraft are really comm
45 Post contains links and images N14AZ : Haa, that's what I thought all the time. The final version (most probably) of the 737 will be nose-up while the first version (-100) started nose-dow
46 AirlineCritic : I don't know about the rest of you, but I am a bit surprised by this. Or am I missing something? Is the A320NEO configuration firm? I thought it was.
47 Post contains images Revelation : Since this is a Boeing PR release, whatever one that makes Boeing look the best, of course! Maybe if the 777-200ER and A330-300 were as similar as ar
48 astuteman : To be fair, he says 68" is "the right size for the airframe". Insofar as 68" has already caused additional changes to be required of the 737, 81" cou
49 Post contains images EPA001 : I believe so too. But I am still wondering where the 600 commitments are coming from. The NEO launched without a launch customer but we now know who
50 qfa787380 : Fair enough and your reply is exactly as suspected-directed towards the man. But now I s'pose Boeing are just saying they have 600+ commitments from
51 Ruscoe : OK to wonder but no need to worry. The reality is neither airframe manufacturer can meet this market alone. Airbus did not even have to launch the NE
52 Stitch : Wasn't VX onboard at launch? I expect WN and FR have yet to commit as both have said they were looking at it when Boeing had ~500 commitments and I e
53 Post contains images EPA001 : I am not dismissive of the B737-MAX. I agreed with the move to copy the strategy of Airbus in the NB-market. And just as the NEO the MAX will sell th
54 FlyingCello : I'm confused about the NG extension...there are reports that Boeing have freed up room to allow the NG bay to be extended, so there will not be a blis
55 ebbuk : So what the poo is a commitment? Is it even less binding than an MOU? What is the $ value of a commitment to Boeing? Show me the money B. I have mega
56 XT6Wagon : What is the value of an order now? IIRC Skybus put down $17.5K per plane as deposit for its order. We all know how many planes were actualy delievere
57 Stitch : I'm hazarding a guess it is a commitment to place an order when Boeing marketing has Authority to Offer. And it's not a unique thing in the field of
58 Post contains images mffoda : Attention! Attention! There are still more slots opening for more Pinheads to way-in on weather or not Boeing is actually collecting orders for the 73
59 Post contains links BoeingVista : So it has nothing to do with the product that Boeing will actually end up offering its just sure we'll order once marketing sends as the brochure? Sc
60 Post contains images Stitch : Boeing and Airbus sold plenty of 787s and A350s before the final configuration was defined. Remember when NH ordered the 787? It wasn't even called t
61 BoeingVista : And ALL of the above worked out well for everybody didn't they!
62 Post contains images Hamlet69 : Neither SW nor FR is among the 8 for 600+. . . Because so far, only one customer has chosen to publically announce their commitment to the 737MAX - -
63 lucky777 : Would an airline like Delta, which just ordered 100 737-900ER's with an additional option for 100 have the option to convert the orders to 737Max with
64 Baroque : Circuit and bump perhaps? You also might be justified to conclude that if only a 78" fan would fit under the wings, this too would be an optimised so
65 BlueSky1976 : This one is a long shot, but I'm willing to guess that new United will be the US launch customer for tne 737Max. The rest is probably from Asia, maybe
66 qfa787380 : Wow, I thought at least 1 of them would have been involved in the 1st 600+! Leeham has speculated that the 1st 5 customers include AA(we know that),
67 HiFlyerAS : I would be very surprised if AS is not a launch customer for the 37MAX. The current AS delivery schedule for new a/c ends in 2014 so with some additi
68 Hamlet69 : I need to apologize and correct an earlier statement. Thanks to a more-observant member than I appear to be, I realize I was in error when I stated Bo
69 Post contains images astuteman : I was very careful not to say that. On the contrary, I'm very content that Boeing could easily have 600 commitments now with lots more to come. But t
70 Post contains images lightsaber : Traditionally Boeing lets customers dictate when to announce the order. The Dubai Airshow is pending.... If true, then GE has some work ahead of it.
71 BMI727 : Boeing obviously needed a fast ramp up on a re-engined plane, but I still believe that the American order and the 787 issues scared Boeing into being
72 ebbuk : I apologise, I'm responding on my smartphone which won't allow me to select the text. Just to say, don't hate the fanboy/girl. Some are attracted, na
73 Baroque : The tussle between the Leap and the GTF routes is going to be fascinating. Am I not interpreting it correctly or have there been requests that GE pro
74 StressedOut : It appears Hamlet69 didn't make such a claim. Did someone else? A bit high and mighty. I have worked in the industry and Hamlet69 is usually right on
75 Post contains images EPA001 : You are correct, and I forgot that one. . Now let's wait and see which orders will be announced there. . Indeed it did. That one will be most interes
76 flyglobal : Interesting read so see how slippery the road is they are on. I think, CFM customers who have signed up CFM engines with their NEO orders will ultima
77 rheinwaldner : I had the information about the longer nose fear from that link too but decided to post the much more detailed Leeham-source (not noticing that Leeha
78 CXB77L : There is never a certainty. Fuel consumption figures are based on the airline's configurations, as well as the mission itself. On some missions, the
79 Post contains images rheinwaldner : Such balanced views are exactly what I mean! Every point you mention is correct. But you paint quite a different picture than Boeing who indicates th
80 CXB77L : I don't agree: The only mention to fuel burn is that it will have a 10-12% lower fuel burn than the 737NG. The claim that Boeing made is somewhat vag
81 extra300 : Oh yes they did.....
82 Post contains images CXB77L : I take that back.
83 cmf : I really have problems with this claim. If they can make them in lower volumes then they must be able to figure out how to make them in higher volume
84 Post contains images scbriml : It seems to me that this is, in large part, a "convenient truth" for Boeing. However, it does pose one simple question. If Boeing is unable to produc
85 Post contains images astuteman : Indeed he is, and he has my respect for that. That said, show me someone who is 100% correct 100% of the time and we'll be in fantasyland. Before the
86 328JET : So what are the details so far? - new engines - partly fly-by-wire control - new exhaust cone - longer forward landig gear - new pylons What is coming
87 tdscanuck : Just so we're clear, you're claiming that the 737MAX will *not* be competitive? How do you explain 600 "orders"? Yes. At the time the AA deal came to
88 Post contains images PC12Fan : What does meteorology have to do with this?
89 Post contains images Stitch : Yes it did. And it will work out well for Boeing and the 737MAX. Based on the GEnx program, maybe not so unusual. That GE/CFM is securing orders for
90 Ruscoe : In a nutshell boeing are saying the 737MAX will weigh less than the NEO and therefore need lower thrust, and hence lower fuel consumption. Boeing will
91 rheinwaldner : I agree, Boeing should do whatever it takes. Whether "whatever it takes" matches the Boeing's intended effort is the question I have raised. It seems
92 BoeingVista : It has 600 "comittments" it has zero orders; even if it is not competitive being made by Boeing and because Airbus cannot fulfill 100% of market need
93 cmf : There is the GE financing arm that has often be said to be a decisive difference. Not that it can overcome every disadvantage. But it can change a sm
94 SEPilot : My take on all of this is that the A320NEO boxed Boeing into a corner that they would have liked to have avoided. They clearly did not want to do anot
95 RoseFlyer : Aren't they main landing gear doors already composite? I can't imagine airlines being excited about an increased wingspan since the 737 has to fit in
96 Stitch : Sorry. Replace "EIS" with "development". The GEnx2B was developed after the GEnx1B so GE was able to put into place improvements.
97 Post contains images EPA001 : A very sharp remark. . Which reminds me of the thread a couple of months ago about GE having lost the Mojo in engine manufacturing. I don't believen
98 seabosdca : I doubt even that will happen. If the relative performance of the two is different from that of the current planes, then pricing power will just shif
99 Post contains images Hamlet69 : Of course. And in no way did my statement intend to apply otherwise. Both Airbus and Boeing were going to do SOMETHING. Everyone knew it, especially
100 Post contains images Hamlet69 : I'll go ya one better and put down a pint that says Boeing will do an NSA before Airbus. And that statement has nothing to do with the comparative me
101 BMI727 : No I think it's going to not age as well as the NEO and Boeing could be forced into jumping first on the new narrowbody. And it could create a logjam
102 planemaker : And, one can justifiably posit, the 737 boxed A into the NEO. There was even a thread a while back about a J.L. presentation bemoaning NB order split
103 cmf : Demand???? Comparing 5-star restaurant with Burger King??? But the funny thing is that both of them use the same method. A very common method already
104 Post contains images lightsaber : Lots to reply to! Nitpick, the LEAP-X core is too large for the 737. In other words, the low pressure compressor will have to deliver less mass flow o
105 BA777 : Will the change in the nose gear lead to less tail clearance than the 52cm with flaps 5 on the current 738?
106 TomB : With its short main landing gear and low wings, the B737 MAX is a sub-optimal derivative. That is why it is taking Boeing until 2013 to finalize the d
107 Stitch : There are evidently weight savings being researched. Perhaps Boeing will use Alcoa's new alloys. At launch, the NSA will probably secure an impressiv
108 beeweel15 : To anyone at Boeing if you read this "JUST GIVE ME BACK THE B757" it is better than the 737 Max and the body has more flexability than the 737. Ending
109 planemaker : And, if you have a new wing, then you might as well go for an all-new NB. Some people, I guess, don't figure that there is a cost/benefit analysis do
110 SEPilot : Why is it a mistake to end a plane when nobody wants to buy it? It would also not sell today as its fuel consumption is much too high, and there is n
111 seabosdca : You must not be paying the fuel or maintenance bills...
112 SEPilot : If there is any plane that can convince an engine manufacturer that enough will sell to justify investing in a new engine variant I would think it is
113 328JET : Sorry.I was not precise enough. Complete doors are under consideration to improve the aerodynamics. Today the wheels are not covered completely.
114 BMI727 : I suspect that the 737MAX will not age especially gracefully and the need for a new airplane will come sooner and more forcefully than Boeing would l
115 Stitch : Boeing Commercial's margins climbed in the latest financial report, closing back towards 10%. I would expect a 737MAX that costs less to operate than
116 XT6Wagon : the 737max should soundly beat the A320NEO in short haul. Short haul isn't going to go away in the US or EU. As the numbers stand the A320NEO should
117 yeelep : The MLG doors on the NG's are cast aluminum.
118 RoseFlyer : I think the general consensus is that there is too much emphasis put on engine fan size. The 737 is not as suited for a larger engine, which many hear
119 SV777 : after B777 and B787 full FBW systems, and still no full FBW on B737max and B747-8? what a shame?
120 lightsaber : Not to mention the 757 is also far more maintenance intensive. The short field performance is impressive on the 757, but every takeoff costs a few hu
121 Stitch : The 777 and 787 were designed with FBW from the beginning. A complete FBW retrofit to the 737 and 747 would likely require significant re-ceritifcati
122 tdscanuck : Not really...lengthening the nose gear changes the ground attitude but doesn't change the wing's incidence angle...that means rotation angles should
123 BMI727 : It might improve on the NG, but likely won't grade out well against the NEO. So Boeing should have gone the extra mile, in the time they have waiting
124 Baroque : Hope that sets the standard for all nitpicks, very useful. So in summary, re-sizing and improving the characteristics of the core are a bit different
125 Ruscoe : Boeing regularly obtains better yields with the current NG v 320 series. In fact Boeing Commercial has better margins overall also for the recent pas
126 scbriml : This is your opinion, yes?
127 extra300 : Indeed the 737 is the best selling airframe over time. The 737 has been ordered in over 9100 copies, and of these almost 7000 has been delivered. Imp
128 seabosdca : I very much doubt this is actually the case. I suspect a lot of early work was done on NSA that will prove very valuable in the future. I think Boein
129 Post contains images mffoda : Also keep in mind... an order for 10 aircraft was considered Large in 1968.
130 Post contains images PC12Fan : Although I admire your passion for the seven five - I have it as well - I'm siding with the posts that have not been receptive to it. It is still an
131 Stitch : Airbus Commercial's margins have trended lower than Boeing Commercial's, so I see the A320neo more as lifting Airbus' margins towards parity with Boe
132 Post contains links and images Revelation : I hate it when work gets in the way of an interesting thread! Thanks for the insight. BTW Guy Norris (in AvWeek blog posting linked earlier) quotes Al
133 Stitch : It would depend on what the clearance was. If the 737 sat as far off the ground as the A320, I would expect it to have the same 81" fan. But does Boe
134 Post contains images SEPilot : Don't forget that the existing wing was totally redesigned in the 90's; it is newer than the A320 wing. I doubt that there is a business case for red
135 Post contains images astuteman : My understanding is that the 737 customers basically want as little to change as is humaly possible, except for the new engines. Going too far with a
136 planemaker : Boeing is going where it makes economic sense and will lighten the airframe only where it makes economic sense. Again, it has to make economic sense.
137 beeweel15 : Well If I cant get the 757 back give me something new. 757NEO that sounds good and with the improvements to engines and weight reductions it should b
138 Post contains images Revelation : I don't want to go too far OT but I can't see how getting half the A350XWB market would not provide strong ROI even if it meant putting out tweaked G
139 BMI727 : Even if they don't gain much aerodynamcially, they could remove quite a bit of weight from the plane with a new wing. If the best selling point is co
140 Post contains images Stitch : And GE secured an agreement that the first two years of deliveries would only have GEnx-1A engines. Also, the GEnx-1A was going to be a derivative of
141 BMI727 : The goal would be to not have a plane that has its appeal limited to 737 operators. It looks like that is the way it's going to go. The MAX should ma
142 Post contains images Stitch : That was the purpose of the NSA. The majority of new airlines seem to prefer the A320 family and it wins the majority of orders from them. The NSA wo
143 Post contains images mffoda : The funny thing about the NEO and the MAX is; that the MAX is optimized for Europe and the NEO is optimized for the US! But that's not how they're sol
144 planemaker : But it isn't worth it. Not when your customers are TELLING you to keep the commonality. First, they are not "dead in the water" even if the engine is
145 JoeCanuck : Boeing would be happy to if you were willing to buy a few hundred of them. They did pretty well offering just one engine for every 737 until the MAX,
146 BMI727 : That is a preference Boeing could possibly change if they do more work on the 737 MAX. And a 737 with a new wing could do exactly the same, only bett
147 planemaker : And a new wing is not economic. Like what? A new wing???? I know that you like to ignore the cost/benefit analysis but extensive modifications cost m
148 Post contains links travelhound : Randy's Journal has just posted a blog on the subject. The interesting point is the respective thrust requirements for each of the planes. The argumen
149 Stitch : The more things Boeing changes, the father back EIS is pushed. The farther back EIS is pushed, the more customers buy the A320neo. The 737NG has a ne
150 tdscanuck : Even since Jim Albaugh took over as CEO at Boeing Commercial, he's been very focal that he wants to be world leader in numbers *and* profits. They mi
151 XT6Wagon : The 737NG is a good bit lighter than the A320. The A320 NEO is 1.5 tons heavier than the A320. If Boeing can keep wieght in check, thats a very solid
152 travelhound : With the 787 and 747 now in delivery mode I suspect he is going to get his way on both counts! ... and this is the interesting aspect of this challen
153 BMI727 : These engines both represent significant and different jumps in technology. Boeing has hitched their wagon to only one, and if that horse turns out t
154 tdscanuck : If it turns out to be that much weaker, strapping a GTF under a 737MAX isn't that big a deal...all the other modifications will still work. Pure re-e
155 BMI727 : I think Boeing had the time and resources available to do better. For Boeing, the minimum change solution is suboptimal overall, which they went ahea
156 RoseFlyer : 737 MAX is 5 years away. That's the amount of time to develop the 777 from scratch. The timing has a lot more to do with the engine then the ability
157 Revelation : Interesting points. We've recently seen via the 747-8F tussles that the engine vendors have to meet certain numbers or else. Since we don't have any
158 tdscanuck : If they have time and resources to do better then, by definition, they're not putting it out as quickly as they can. It can't be both. I think you're
159 JoeCanuck : The CFM 56 was as huge a leap from the JT8...and the same holds as true now as it did then; Boeing chose one, Airbus chose two. Boeing decided that t
160 BMI727 : In this case Boeing could allow themselves to put a more efficient engine(s) on the plane, reap whatever gains aerodynamics has made in the last 10-1
161 Baroque : n-dimensional space (where n>4) can be really tricky, and so hard to visualize graphically.
162 etoile : This is internally contracdictory. Boeing can leverage "everything they learned" on the 787 so as to not scew up a project and tie up resources. That
163 planemaker : Cost/benefit base on what?? All you do you is come up with pie-in-the-sky "thinking" that you don't even attempt to substantiate. Again... "I think"
164 scbriml : But hasn't Boeing signed an exclusive contract with CFM?
165 extra300 : I didn´t realize that the game was that close! Thanks.
166 Baroque : I think your quoting finger is going astray.
167 Post contains images Stitch : Pratt is said to be quoting SFC 4% lower than they expect, just to provide themselves sufficient cushion. If a new wing can offer that level of savin
168 328JET : That could happen if the sole engine will do the job... I see the MAX as a more risky solution than the neo. Airbus is offering two engines and at le
169 Revelation : I think that's what a lot of us feel too, and are a bit bemused by Boeing making statements about how happy they are with the smaller, lighter engine
170 XT6Wagon : WN will soon start having to take 30+ a year to simply maintain thier current fleet size. This is one of the drivers behind Boeing not having a choic
171 PC12Fan : Point is moot since the line is done. I was just thinking from the fantasy chair. However, if the 757 line were still going, a NEO would be a great i
172 Post contains images Baroque : There is some technical risk with each design. Possibly less with the GTF but not certainly. However, whichever way you do the maths, with the two di
173 Post contains images EPA001 : This one line summerizes this discussion to the point. .
174 Post contains links and images mffoda : Why don't we have a look on P&W website? http://www.purepowerengine.com/technology.html It seems that they have a PW1500G w/ a 73" fan and a PW11
175 Baroque : And they also have PW1521G 21,000 lbs PW1524G 23,300 lb Under the JM column PW1124G 24,000 lbs PW1127G 27,000 lbs PW1133G 33,000 lbs Just a wild gues
176 Post contains images mffoda : I was making the point that BPR is not restricted to fan dia. alone... As many here attempt to suggest. But, you already knew that...
177 Post contains images Revelation : Ask Airbus about half their VLA production being consumed by one customer, and I'm sure they're quite happy about it. Much better problem to have tha
178 tdscanuck : I have no idea, but if CFM misses target so badly that it's threatening the livelihood of the program I somehow think the lawyers will figure out a w
179 Post contains links scbriml : They certainly have. http://www.flightglobal.com/director...facturer=3279&navigationItemId=382 And I'm equally sure that CFM's lawyers will ensur
180 RoseFlyer : I think Airbus did it right with having two engines on the NEO. I think the C-Series is at too high of risk offering only the Geared Turbo Fan. Getti
181 Ruscoe : Having two new engines on the 320NEO doubles the risk, does not halve it! Ruscoe
182 RoseFlyer : Drastically increases the engineering costs, but if the geared turbofan has reliability problems and isn't able to maintain ETOPS (which is a genuine
183 flyglobal : Of course Tom. Yes the 737 is lighter, but that would probably bring a none ground clearance restricted fan from 78 Inch to 76 or 75 given the rather
184 Post contains images Stitch : Why should you feel bemusement, unless you just want to take the p**s at Boeing's expense? Boeing have said 68" is the optimum engine for the constra
185 Post contains images mffoda : I don't find anything new here... The A320 always now has two Engines choices vs the 737? Two things: 1st: On the A320, CFM out sells IAE. 2nd: CFM h
186 BMI727 : A statistical approximation for the wing weight of transports is 10 lb/sq. ft. so the 737 with 1344 sq. ft. of wing has a 13,400 lb. wing. The typica
187 mffoda : All things being equal? The present A320 engine fan is 11.5% larger then the 737's. If the 737 MAX were to follow that trend vs. the A320neo... 14.7%
188 JoeCanuck : Basically, it came time for BBD to poop or get off the pot. The worked with what they had at the time and Pratt was offering the best performance at
189 Post contains images lightsaber : It is a cost savings. The exact number is debatable, but single digit CASM (w/fuel) at most. The GTF would take another 4 years to develop. The 'weak
190 mffoda : I was actually waiting for a response from an engine guy... (thanks) I have another question... maybe you can help? All the newest engines for all th
191 Ruscoe : I think it is quite obvious that if either engine fails on the NEO, it will have serious consequences. Can you imagine the price the surviving engine
192 tdscanuck : Even the longest-legged C-Series is just barely an ETOPS airplane...they've got lots of time to build ETOPS reliability. Bigger bypass ratio means bi
193 XT6Wagon : I'm suprised no one has said it yet, but your missing a key point. SFC != fuel burn. The lower SFC of a larger fan for more bypass is offset by 1. in
194 BMI727 : Then why did Bombardier feel the need to use that much larger of a fan? The 737 might suffer less from a smaller fan than the A320 would, but it will
195 planemaker : Thank you for trying to show how you arrive at your "thinking" . However, in addition to missing the point (the cost/benefit/risks), the numbers are
196 Post contains links and images jacobin777 : ...That's just flat out incorrect.. "Boeing has commitments from eight airlines for more than 600 737 Max aircraft, the company’s marketing VP said
197 tdscanuck : Different airplane, different target in the trade study. The C-Series is designed much more around short haul/high cycle than the 737 so takeoff/clim
198 Post contains images Stitch : If nothing else, this should finally put the kibosh on the questions as to whether NH and JL using the A380 on domestic Japanese missions (including
199 Post contains images EPA001 : I think you are absolutely correct here. Nevertheless, 3% off on big fleets of NEO's and MAX's will still mean a significant amount of fuel and money
200 jacobin777 : I agree that neither JL nor NH will be getting the Big Beast anytime soon for domestic Japanese missions but I don't think Boeing is doing a "fair jo
201 SEPilot : No such thing exists on this earth. Some people can screw up a mudpie. Unfortunately, the Peter Principle dictates that these are the people who ofte
202 Post contains images flyglobal : This is a nice life example of Boeing math at work and someone can imagine how the other math in Boeing marketing e.g. MAX vs. NEO is performed. How
203 328JET : That is wrong math. Two options means half the risk.
204 Baroque : Common error with p. Adding where you should multiply I think. Or something like that. On the positive side, it does allow you to state (with convict
205 328JET : Luckily this "guide" does not apply for aircraft engineers...
206 Rheinwaldner : They are from much lighter material -> air! Why could the A320NEO not get the same core? This is 100% spin. The thrust requirements from 737-739 a
207 CXB77L : Why? I accept that a larger fan size and new gears is likely to increase weight, but why will it gain more relative to the A320NEO, which also has a
208 seabosdca : 73G/319 and 738/320 are close on maximum weight, but the 737s still require a bit less because of their superior wing. The 739 is considerably lighte
209 parapente : The sad thing (for me) is that because the 737 is such a good plane (the MAX being a whole lot better) and the A320 the same (again with the 15% impro
210 odwyerpw : Awesome. I received an answer with-in my post (No. 1) and then was treated to 205 counterpoints. Have to love A-Net! It was long said that 68¨ would
211 Post contains links and images Heavierthanair : G'day http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...w-of-737-max-configuration-364297/ In this article it says quote: Hamilton added that the engine will rid
212 Post contains images EPA001 : Please, not the use "superior" again. Read the highly detailed posts about the individual performance of the B737-NG and the later specs A320's. The
213 RoseFlyer : I don't think any engine ever fails completely. It usually just subpar and late. All the companies have vast engineering resources to fix their probl
214 astuteman : It's Aussie "Funny Math"... Boeing have had the thick end of 8 years already in which to do just that, and don't seem to have had as much as a sniff
215 BoeingVista : But half the range so they are hardly going to be competing on the same routes.
216 Stitch : EK does appear to have plans for a two-class, 653 seat A380-800 with a 510t MTOW designed for "regional routes" of up to 11 hours that would be withi
217 BMI727 : I'd love to see your right numbers. It's the best they can do on that airframe, but they could alter the airframe and end up with a more efficient pr
218 Ruscoe : If you add two similar risks it is the same as doubling them eg 2+2 is the same as 2*2. However my point is that the NEO is more risk by some order o
219 BoeingVista : With a full load of passengers and baggage? The 787-10X is still an exercise in creative thinking like all -10 versions before it it has not even mad
220 planemaker : It isn't about my right numbers. Not only should it be enough that Boeing has ruled out a CFRP wing (and they have a lot more knowledge and experienc
221 flyingAY : In risk analysis you typically have to evaluate the probability of the risk as well as the impact. You seem to talk only about probability. For Airbu
222 RoseFlyer : Good assessment of Risk. Likelihood + Consequence = Impact of risk. Airbus has higher likelihood, but lower consequence. Welcome to my respected user
223 Baroque : If your probability of anything is 2 you do have a problem. But in the real world, you might have a probability of an event such that p=0.8. Two simi
224 BMI727 : I'm not at all convinced it was ever seriously considered. It came from a design book, by the way. They're already altering the core for several hund
225 tdscanuck : For maximum efficiency, you want to run the core as hard as you can. If you're running it at full power for the 737MAX, it can't run the A320NEO. Of
226 BMI727 : Sure, but it doesn't do a whole lot when alterations to the airframe could enable a more efficient total package for minimal extra time in the schedu
227 Post contains images flyingAY : Thanks. You wrote it out with better words, that's exactly what I was after. I've been using mostly simple risk analysis methods that use typically L
228 tdscanuck : It's a lower bypass engine running on the same pressure ratio from the same OEM...it's basically guaranteed to have worse TSFC. The point of a new co
229 Post contains images planemaker : You're wrong. It was looked at and discarded because it doesn't make any economic sense. The design book is wrong. In any case, common sense and a bi
230 BMI727 : Not at all. I'm the one arguing that the MAX isn't light enough. Planemaker was disputing that Boeing says they soundly beat the A320 (even the NEO)
231 JoeCanuck : How much more minimal? How much would the wing cost? How many customers would Boeing have lost to Airbus in the extra time it would take them to do t
232 BMI727 : Was it? I think that Boeing was most of the way to launching an all new plane until they realized American was serious about the A320 at which point
233 JoeCanuck : ...and that's exactly the point. Customers are fine with this schedule...and they weren't with the next decade schedule. Boeing spent, literally, yea
234 planemaker : Your thinking is wrong, no matter how many times you keep repeating it. Moreover, considering that you are virtually the only one that keeps repeatin
235 SEPilot : This issue of whether or not it is riskier to have two engines is not as simple as it appears. With two engines you have more risk of having problems
236 rheinwaldner : I meant that the 737MAX will gain more weight relatively vs the 737NG than the A320NEO will gain vs the A320. This is safe to assume. That the C-Seri
237 scbriml : That only works for that specific value though, doesn't it? Try it with 3. If I roll a die, the odds of it coming up 6 is 1/6. If I roll two dice, th
238 SEPilot : There is little question that a larger fan than 68" would benefit the MAX. But customers are not buying a fan, they are buying an airliner. I think ev
239 Post contains images CXB77L : I know what you mean. You haven't elaborated as to why this is a safe assumption, other than your distrust of everything that Boeing does. The 737MAX
240 Stitch : Your own statement should be enough answer to your question as to why Boeing is not spending all the money and time it takes to make a 737MAX that is
241 Revelation : I don't agree. My engineering profs told me that making engineering approximations is a useful thing, as long as you state them as approximations. Yo
242 Post contains images jacobin777 : That very well might be true, but so far we haven't seen it yet (at least in public). Also, Boeing has stated at routes of around 3000nm. While it mi
243 tdscanuck : I understand what you're saying, I don't understand how the pieces fit together...if they want minimum time to sell then you don't do more than you h
244 PITingres : ... couldn't do it with the necessary production rate in the time frame that the market demanded. I think people here are missing out on the whole pr
245 Revelation : You can actually order an A35J so it's a paper airplane whereas I'd say the 787-10 is a vapor airplane. I don't read the "as possible" part in that d
246 SEPilot : In another thread I had an exchange with Kanban the upshot of which is that whatever the PR guys say at Boeing is about as useful as a pile of cow du
247 planemaker : Good post and every MAX detractor should read it before posting. The negative focus on single elements and then declaring the MAX as not competitive
248 JoeCanuck : Optimized has to be in context to make sense and the context in this case is the MAX. Optimized is a comparison to what is less than optimized. If on
249 Post contains images EPA001 : I would bet that their competitors are just as busy with developments like these as Boeing is. .
250 SEPilot : I totally agree; and it could be a big part of why neither have been very enthusiastic about launching a new narrowbody. I had heard rumors about new
251 RoseFlyer : I already pointed out why that's not safe to assume. Nose height is expected to increase, but that does not necessarily translate into more weight. I
252 planemaker : Yes, and faster component manufacturing as well with potentially no autoclaving required. And by only 6-8 inches... Although the 68-in. fan does not
253 BMI727 : But they won't likely gain many, if any, either. Locking themselves into 10 years or so of not gaining marketshare without buying it is not a particu
254 Stitch : Why? Sharklets will add weight to the A320 and A320neo due to wing reinforcement being necessary. The LEAP-X1A should also weigh more than the LEAP-X
255 SEPilot : First, the existing wing is quite new; it was new for the NG's. This means that a new wing will probably not gain all that much aerodynamically, and
256 Post contains images planemaker : No they are not. It is the opposite. "Scared???"... you must still be "thinking" Halloween. As has been pointed out to you several times, no airline
257 bringiton : The objective for Boeing is to sell all production slots (with the current Increased production plan) between now and the Launch of the Next generatio
258 bringiton : @ BMI727 Both A and B would need to spend the billions on a new platform when the market demand , and the technological availability allows them , th
259 Post contains images Hamlet69 : The argument that it is "safe to assume" the MAX will gain more relative weight is utter nonsense. First, at this stage of either aircraft, it isn't
260 tdscanuck : It came from your definition: Using either definition 1 or 2, it's clearly as good as you can get *given the constraints you have*. Tom.
261 Post contains images Stitch : Considering how poor CSeries sales are, maybe BBD should be getting Ottawa to cut some checks to customers, in addition to themselves. [Edited 2011-1
262 BMI727 : I'm not arguing in favor of the NSA. I'm arguing that the 737 MAX doesn't offer enough of the benefits of a new plane to do much more than keep exist
263 odwyerpw : Ok, I'm just going to throw this out there. I am putting on the flame retardant suit. Is there anything that can be done cost effectively to the 737 W
264 Stitch : I really don't see Boeing running out of orders to keep their production lines full at the current planned rate of 42 a year starting in 2014. They're
265 planemaker : NO, but you certainly seem to be really upset about it with all your unsubstantiated posts about the MAX. Well, duh, it isn't a new plane. Hogwash. N
266 tdscanuck : Your whole thesis about them having time to do more improvements was based around the engine being the critical scheduling item...if that's the case
267 astuteman : Spending another several $Bn, and stretching their design resources further, to end up in more-or-less the same place is an even less enviable positi
268 bringiton : One thing is certain, that Neither Boeing nor airbus will jump the gun and initiate a program without feeling the pulse of the market and having the
269 XT6Wagon : I think we will see expansion of point to point premium only flights on narrowbodies. Not common, but far more common than today. Far less risk tryin
270 BMI727 : I read plenty, and all of it, save for some of the Boeing PR spin, indicates that the MAX is going to be giving up some efficiency vs. the competitio
271 astuteman : As a check for understanding, is this what you actually intended to say? Or did you mean "MAX" instead of "NEO" I'm not sure that this is actually a
272 bringiton : We will soon see how that plays out , Boeing is estimating 600+ orders which are likely to be firmed up by end of next year , so surely the MAX is re
273 BMI727 : Oops, that's a typo. Filling up the production line was never an issue. It's a matter of how much they'll make doing it, now and in the future. And i
274 bringiton : Well , how much money they make depends upon some of the foll How much money they spend developing it, Weather they have it out on time, on budget an
275 bringiton : It could also been the case that boeing wish to be agressive with the NSA and launch it earlier with increased risk (earlier to when the industry esti
276 BMI727 : Of course they will. They could have sold out their production line without doing anything, it's just a matter of how much they make off of it. Of co
277 bringiton : What i meant was , that if Boeing receive a Luke warm response on the MAX next year (when they firm up the commitments they have ) they can always ad
278 planemaker : You quite obviously don't... Or from AirInsight... I honestly don't get your baseless repetition of trying to paint the MAX as a some sort of "loser"
279 BMI727 : Part of the rationale for offering a more comprehensive rework of the 737 is so it could be competitive in the marketplace for longer and could see a
280 bringiton : The question is not weather it can ensure the required profitability well past a decade of production but weather Boeing want it t do so, ie when the
281 BMI727 : Logically they would want to put the NSA off as far as they can, having just made an investment in the 737. But a more thoroughly reworked 737 could
282 bringiton : Not necessarily...Both Airbus and Boeing have deliberately made investments on the NEO and the MAX small enough so that they can be recovered and a h
283 bringiton : Something that really didnt work with the original A-350. Despite all the PR , the efficiency gains required to launch a brand new program as opposed
284 BMI727 : Of course making more investment now will keep the product competitive for a longer time and making returns further into the future. Which is precise
285 cmf : I'd say it is the other way around. They will save a lot more money going down this route than trying to bring the new plane up to par when the compe
286 planemaker : But as has been already explained several times a) the comprehensive rework is an economic non-starter and b) the MAX will be competitive in the mark
287 bringiton : Not necessarily , if they are seeing tech. availability around early to mid 2020's and the market demand likewise , then there is money to be made if
288 bringiton : I agree 100%, Currently we are debating wether the current MAX is competitive with the NEO or not, BMI's position is that it is not , and that a more
289 BMI727 : They save money now, but it may force them into a much larger investment sooner than they otherwise would have. Based on what happened and when, I'd
290 cmf : The direction isn't important when you have uncertainty of that size. The question really becomes the validity of each number. If I remember right th
291 planemaker : No it won't. None of the details were known by you. You haven't a clue what Boeing presented. And you think that GE is going to sit on their hands. S
292 bringiton : Flip the argument around , It could be said that the reason why both Boeing and Airbus have made minimal investments onto their respective narrow bod
293 cmf : The large investment is when they go for the new plane. This way it will probably happen in the same time frame as Airbus and thus reduce total amoun
294 Post contains links NZ1 : As this thread has got rather long, please continue discussion here: B737Max Specs, Boeing Provide Update - Part 2 (by NZ1 Nov 9 2011 in Civil Aviatio
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