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DL DFW Hub Routes  
User currently offlineunited319 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 522 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10884 times:
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Hi All,

Just wondering if anybody has a picture of DL's route network when the DFW Hub was at its peak (in terms of number of destinations)? Would love to see this. I remember seeing the OO route maps a few years ago when DL still had some RJ flying from DFW.

Thanks,


It's Time To Fly
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6603 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10850 times:

This should cover it for you.

http://www.departedflights.com/DLDFWhub.html


User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 912 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10835 times:

http://www.airchive.com/html/timetable-and-route-maps/delta-n-east

Scroll down to 2003. That's as close as you can get.

I don't recall SkyWest doing any significant flying out of DFW though, that was almost (all?) ASA.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6741 posts, RR: 32
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10773 times:

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 3):
I don't recall SkyWest doing any significant flying out of DFW though, that was almost (all?) ASA.

OO did some flying out of DFW once Delta started to shuffle the Delta Connection carriers to avoid a repeat of the crippling effects of the Comair pilots' strike on CVG. I flew OO between DFW & IAH a number of times in the early aughts. RP also came into DFW for DCI (with E135's) in the waning days of the DFW hub.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6603 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10759 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 4):
OO did some flying out of DFW once Delta started to shuffle the Delta Connection carriers

Correct. In the 2003-04 timeframe, OO had a decent number of flights of out of DFW for DL. I remember OO flying PNS-DFW as it was the first time we had ever seen OO in PNS.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10176 times:

I looked on Departed Flights for the greatest number of FLIGHTS (both mainline and commuter) closest to the demise. I chose 1 Nov 2003 even though it was much greater around 1995 and before.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=FYV-DFW%0d%0aLAW-DFW%0d%0aSPS-DFW%0d%0aABI-DFW%0d%0aCLL-DFW%0d%0aILE-DFW%0d%0aTUL-DFW%0d%0aTYR-DFW%0d%0aBPT-DFW%0d%0aFSM-DFW%0d%0aHOU-DFW%0d%0aMEM-DFW%0d%0aOKC-DFW%0d%0aBHM-DFW%0d%0aCOS-DFW%0d%0aVPS-DFW%0d%0aJAN-DFW%0d%0aSDF-DFW%0d%0aLBB-DFW%0d%0aBNA-DFW%0d%0aXNA-DFW%0d%0aPNS-DFW%0d%0aPHX-DFW%0d%0aSHV-DFW%0d%0aTUL-DFW%0d%0aICT-DFW%0d%0aAMA-DFW%0d%0aCHS-DFW%0d%0aCRP-DFW%0d%0aELP-DFW%0d%0aHSV-DFW%0d%0aIND-DFW%0d%0aJAX-DFW%0d%0aLFT-DFW%0d%0aMOB-DFW%0d%0aMLU-DFW%0d%0aMGM-DFW%0d%0aRDU-DFW%0d%0aSAV-DFW%0d%0aTUS-DFW%0d%0aDCA-DFW%0d%0aAEX-DFW%0d%0aCMH-DFW%0d%0aDTW-DFW%0d%0aGSO-DFW%0d%0aTYS-DFW%0d%0aLEX-DFW%0d%0aMSP-DFW%0d%0aOAK-DFW%0d%0aONT-DFW%0d%0aSNA-DFW%0d%0aTLH-DFW%0d%0aFLL-DFW%0d%0aPDX-DFW%0d%0aPBI-DFW%0d%0aBOS-DFW%0d%0aLAS-DFW%0d%0aLGA-DFW%0d%0aSAN-DFW%0d%0aSFO-DFW%0d%0aSEA-DFW%0d%0aTPA-DFW%0d%0aLAX-DFW%0d%0aABQ-DFW%0d%0aATL-DFW%0d%0aMCO-DFW%0d%0aCVG-DFW%0d%0aSLC-DFW%0d%0a&MS=wls&MR=300&MX=720x360&PM=*

Great Circle Mapper
http://www.gcmap.com/

[Edited 2011-11-02 14:00:52]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10117 times:

Just for the heck of it, 31 October 1993, the greatest number of flights DL had (well, the highest number Departed Flights has data for):

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=FYV-DFW%0d%0aLAW-DFW%0d%0aSPS-DFW%0d%0aABI-DFW%0d%0aCLL-DFW%0d%0aILE-DFW%0d%0aTUL-DFW%0d%0aTYR-DFW%0d%0aBPT-DFW%0d%0aFSM-DFW%0d%0aSJT-DFW%0d%0aACT-DFW%0d%0aCRP-DFW%0d%0aICT-DFW%0d%0aSGF-DFW%0d%0aTXK-DFW%0d%0aAEX-DFW%0d%0aGGG-DFW%0d%0aLBB-DFW%0d%0aLFT-DFW%0d%0aAMA-DFW%0d%0aBHM-DFW%0d%0aJFK-DFW%0d%0aMLU-DFW%0d%0aMOB-DFW%0d%0aPSP-DFW%0d%0aSRQ-DFW%0d%0aBWI-DFW%0d%0aHSV-DFW%0d%0aJAX-DFW%0d%0aMEX-DFW%0d%0aOAK-DFW%0d%0aPBI-DFW%0d%0aPDX-DFW%0d%0aPNS-DFW%0d%0aRDU-DFW%0d%0aRNO-DFW%0d%0aRSW-DFW%0d%0aSMF-DFW%0d%0aTYS-DFW%0d%0aCOS-DFW%0d%0aEWR-DFW%0d%0aLGA-DFW%0d%0aMIA-DFW%0d%0aONT-DFW%0d%0aPHL-DFW%0d%0aSDF-DFW%0d%0aSJC-DFW%0d%0aSNA-DFW%0d%0aTPA-DFW%0d%0aTUS-DFW%0d%0aABQ-DFW%0d%0aBNA-DFW%0d%0aBOS-DFW%0d%0aCVG-DFW%0d%0aDCA-DFW%0d%0aFLL-DFW%0d%0aJAN-DFW%0d%0aLAS-DFW%0d%0aORD-DFW%0d%0aSEA-DFW%0d%0aBTR-DFW%0d%0aDEN-DFW%0d%0aELP-DFW%0d%0aHOU-DFW%0d%0aLAX-DFW%0d%0aLIT-DFW%0d%0aMCO-DFW%0d%0aMEM-DFW%0d%0aPHX-DFW%0d%0aSAN-DFW%0d%0aSFO-DFW%0d%0aSLC-DFW%0d%0aMSY-DFW%0d%0aSHV-DFW%0d%0aMCI-DFW%0d%0aAUS-DFW%0d%0aATL-DFW%0d%0aOKC-DFW%0d%0aSAT-DFW%0d%0aIAH-DFW&MS=wls&MR=300&MX=720x360&PM=b:disc7%2b%25U

Plus DFW-HNL and DFW-FRA

Great Circle Mapper
http://www.gcmap.com/

[Edited 2011-11-02 14:07:08]


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2178 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9956 times:

To be truthful, there was never really a "peak" year during Delta's tenure as a second hub airline at DFW. To me, the word "peak" is slightly misleading because the DL hub at DFW struggled to turn profits for them which lead to its eventual demise. Of course there were YoY fluctuations in number of daily scheduled flights, capacity (mainline and regional) and nonstop destinations served, but you could pinpoint different years (whether it be 1995, 2000 or 2003) and you will get entirely different sets of data.

What I have always found more fascinating is to analyze the shifts that the hub undertook as Delta's network planning team seemed to consistently "tweak" it to make it work per the type of market that DFW merited. For example, in the mid-1990's, Delta had a few long-haul flights from DFW (FRA, HNL) and transborder ones (MEX). In the late 1990's, DL flew widebody jets to markets like FLL, LAX, MCO, on 767s and L-10/11s, and even some very short haul markets like Alexandria, LA were served on a 72S or 733. This is something not even AA does today. In the early 2000's, when DL transformed DFW into an RJ-primarily hub, there were some medium-stage transcon flights like DFW-OAK or DFW-JFK flown on CRJs.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5048 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9824 times:

-SIGH-

Look at how beautifully DFW sat between the ATL and SLC hubs...a shame really.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9566 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 8):
Look at how beautifully DFW sat between the ATL and SLC hubs...a shame really.

Yes, it is somewhat a hole in the network, but besides DFW and IAH, what other city in that region could they be at? DL wasn't a strong #2 IIRC, they were a pretty weak #2. Re-entering DFW or trying to get in IAH now would be a bloodbath. Too bad...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5048 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9468 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):


Yes, it is somewhat a hole in the network, but besides DFW and IAH, what other city in that region could they be at? DL wasn't a strong #2 IIRC, they were a pretty weak #2. Re-entering DFW or trying to get in IAH now would be a bloodbath. Too bad...

I wouldn't suggest they re-enter DFW, too late now, but it looked good on their route maps!



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 9298 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 10):
but it looked good on their route maps!

That it did. Actually, I think the best route maps were from the 50s-80s, before boring hub and spoke...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinetexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8073 times:

I for one remember well the expansive DFW routes on Delta. It seemed in the 1980's that almost every other flight was a wide-body.

One of my best experiences was DFW-LAX in summer 1982. Flew on a L-1011 on an afternoon flight. Served full meal and dessert as well. F/A's were cheery and so friendly. Had a huge group of Mary Kay cosmetics sales reps on flight, and they were fun and sang songs and such.

Of course, the huge wide-body and movies on and not a filled to the brim RJ made the experience even better.

Young people of today have no idea how much fun flying was in those days....



Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
User currently offlinebevisisback From Netherlands, joined Oct 2009, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6516 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
besides DFW and IAH, what other city in that region could they be at?

ATL isn't all that far from DFW and IAH in the grand scheme of things, and they do pretty well out of there.

The way I see it is AA has DFW, united (continental) has IAH and DL has ATL. While im not exactly an expert here that seems pretty equal to me.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2747 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6474 times:

Quoting texdravid (Reply 12):
Young people of today have no idea how much fun flying was in those days....

I read this and think of all of the flying that I did once way back when, and really, as you say, how much fun it was. Now, maybe it's a case of been there and done that, but nonetheless, flying now has become such a hassle for the most part, and something that I tend to avoid, and make a sour face if I do have to.....

Anyway, my comment doesn't have much to do with the DL/DFW hub, but this comment just struck a chord in me, so I had to write something anyways.....  


User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6173 times:

It looks like DL had trouble with DFW-ORD. Service started in late 1981 and worked up to 5 flights. With a reduction to 4 flights, followed by the route being dropped completely in late 1994. Then there was the short revivial in 2002.

This shows how powerful AA was flying between its two largest hubs, despite the fact that DL had a large presence at ORD long before deregulation.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10369 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6141 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
That it did. Actually, I think the best route maps were from the 50s-80s, before boring hub and spoke..

You do realize that DL was operating a hub and spoke system (out of ATL) back that far?

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
and even some very short haul markets like Alexandria, LA were served on a 72S or 733.

I don't think so....by that time, late '90s, cities like ESF, SHV, MLU, etc. were already RJ cities.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
To be truthful, there was never really a "peak" year during Delta's tenure as a second hub airline at DFW. To me, the word "peak" is slightly misleading because the DL hub at DFW struggled to turn profits for them which lead to its eventual demise.

At that particular time, those of us that worked at SLC were told that it was a competition between us and DFW to see who would remain open as a hub. I think we had the advantage, going in, as our costs were lower to begin with.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6741 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6018 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
I looked on Departed Flights for the greatest number of FLIGHTS (both mainline and commuter) closest to the demise. I chose 1 Nov 2003 even though it was much greater around 1995 and before.

And if you examine the map, you can see the DFW hub's two key niches in the DL network -- westbound connections from the smaller markets between DFW & ATL, as well as regional connections to markets in Texas and the states surrounding it. Delta's historically strong presence in Florida also added a disproportionate amount of traffic/flights to DFW in comparison to the size of the hub.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6603 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 16):
SHV, MLU, etc. were already RJ cities.

SHV had mainline to DFW up til 2001. MLU still had mainline to ATL through 2001, though it was often with an intermediate stop in BHM, MGM, MOB or PNS.

Quoting mayor (Reply 16):
I think we had the advantage, going in, as our costs were lower to begin with.

The bigger advantage you had at SLC was geography and no competition. Shutting down SLC would have left DL with minimal presence west of the Rockies. Losing DFW left only a small hole in the DL network.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2178 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5938 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
Losing DFW left only a small hole in the DL network.

DFW needed DL more than DL needed DFW, and even that statement is a stretch. AA was able to fill the void literally overnight.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5851 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 16):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
That it did. Actually, I think the best route maps were from the 50s-80s, before boring hub and spoke..

You do realize that DL was operating a hub and spoke system (out of ATL) back that far?

I meant where 90% of flights are hub and spoke, like today. Take a look at this map:

http://www.departedflights.com/DL121570.jpg
Many cities had regional P2P routes, there is a ATL-CSG-MGM-MEI-JAN-MLU-SHV-DFW flight, etc. I think it is more interesting to look at rather than today's route maps where it has a bunch of black hole cities.

Also, back on topic, you can see how DFW here is a transcon hub. Good for west-east connections.

Quoting bevisisback (Reply 13):

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
besides DFW and IAH, what other city in that region could they be at?

ATL isn't all that far from DFW and IAH in the grand scheme of things, and they do pretty well out of there.

The way I see it is AA has DFW, united (continental) has IAH and DL has ATL. While im not exactly an expert here that seems pretty equal to me.

I agree somewhat. As I said, Texas is a great east-west hub, and it can serve Mexico a little bit better. DL's Mexican hubs are a bit out of the way (ATL and LAX, which is sort of a hub.) But no airline is perfect with hubs in every region. I've heard discussion of how AA and UA/CO would benefit from a southeast hub (such as ATL or CLT) because they offer great FL-north east connections, something IAH and DFW can't do. EWR and IAD can do this, but not as effectively as ATL or CLT (because these 2 can serve destinations like ORD and that area more directly than going through IAD or EWR)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10369 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5553 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Also, back on topic, you can see how DFW here is a transcon hub. Good for west-east connections.

Just as an FYI......when this map came out, it was Dallas Love Field (DAL) and not DFW.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
ATL-CSG-MGM-MEI-JAN-MLU-SHV-DFW

I know......I used to work it when I worked for DL in SHV. It is actually, mostly, the original Air Mail route #24, which was DL's original route.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7862 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5443 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 21):
Just as an FYI......when this map came out, it was Dallas Love Field (DAL) and not DFW.

Sigh, my age is showing   Actually I have a related question, when DFW opened, did most carriers just simply shift their operations over or how did that work out? Same with MDW --> ORD. Did DL operate a DAL hub when DFW was open?



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10369 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5297 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
Sigh, my age is showing Actually I have a related question, when DFW opened, did most carriers just simply shift their operations over or how did that work out? Same with MDW --> ORD. Did DL operate a DAL hub when DFW was open?

In DL's case, I believe they just shifted ops over to DFW........I don't believe DL built Dallas up as a hub until the move to DFW. As for the move from MDW to ORD, DL still had a split operation and operated at MDW until about the mid '70s, when I was at ORD. Matter of fact, DL's decision to close up MDW (one of the last airlines to do so) got them into some hot water with Mayor Daley (the father, not the son), but that's a story for another time.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7513 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5283 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 23):
In DL's case, I believe they just shifted ops over to DFW........I don't believe DL built Dallas up as a hub until the move to DFW.

Not to de-rail this thread but when DFW opened in 1974; it opened with the intent that ALL commercial carriers (including DL) would relocate their operations there.

As we all know, one then-inTRAstate carrier that started operations 3 years earlier was able to legally fight for their right to still operate out of DAL and not move to DFW. The rest is history and the subject of many threads on this site.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
25 swabrian : Actually, MDW-STL flights lasted until the early 80s. Also, if you look at the map in reply 20, you can see the remnants of the C&S route system
26 mayor : Operated by who??? DL?? I honestly don't think so. I can remember when DL closed MDW and it was while I was still working at ORD. By the 80s I was al
27 RWA380 : Not one flight to the NW at all, now look at their SEA presence, they did SEA with tags to PDX way prior to NW acquisition
28 PI767 : swabrian is correct. A VERY small number of MDW-STL flights lasted through the VERY early 80s. The last timetable I have showing the service is dated
29 mayor : Ok, then.......this must have been part of the deal to make peace with Mayor Daley, because DL WAS intent on pulling out of MDW, altogether.
30 delta2ual : Also from that route map, look at ORD,MIA, and MSY. All were focus cities for DL at that time.
31 mayor : At one time during the 70s, I think we had up to 90 flights per day at ORD.
32 WA707atMSP : Look at the short hauls from DTW, to FWA, SDF, DAY, and TOL - all with mainline jets. Although DL was not the biggest airline at DTW before deregulat
33 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Yes, almost 20 years after the merger, Chicago and Southern continues to live! Sadly, pretty much all trace of it is gone
34 swabrian : At DTW they installed non-movable jetbridges for the 747, and on the first day of operation, I was told that the jetbridge and the doors wouldn't lin
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