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Did TWA Do West Coast - Europe With 707s?  
User currently offlineJackbr From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 666 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 6895 times:

Did TWA fly LAX/SFO - Europe in the 60s/70s with 707s?

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3214 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (2 years 12 months 9 hours ago) and read 6848 times:

http://www.departedflights.com/TW043072p57.html

According to that they DID fly SFO-LHR nonstop, but it doesn't say aircraft type. Also in that same timetable it shows they flew LAX-LHR nonstop but again - no aircraft type listed.

EDIT - Upon further inspection, it seems TWA clearly labeled their 747 flights and the SFO-LHR nonstop doesn't show that. Which would lead me to guess it was, indeed, operated with a 707.

[Edited 2011-11-04 20:26:39]

User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2248 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (2 years 12 months 2 hours ago) and read 6518 times:

In the Winter, 1983 issue of The Captain's Log, TWA historian Jon Proctor wrote a history of the airline's 707 fleet. He says:

"When I came to work for TWA in 1964 (as a transportation agent in Los Angeles), we had one of the world's largest 707 fleets, and were adding more all the time. The model -131B had a seating configuration of 38 first class (including four in the lounge) and 83 coach, And the super long range model -331B had joined the fleet, flying non stop from Los Angeles to Paris, once a week. Polar Flight 860 was THE premier departure, operating only during the summer months. You could always identify the polar flight as it taxied out simply by the low droop of its wings. Its takeoff roll often exceeded a full minute, and could be quite a thrill for passengers and crew alike."



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User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8437 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (2 years 12 months ago) and read 6353 times:
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Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 1):
According to that they DID fly SFO-LHR nonstop, but it doesn't say aircraft type. Also in that same timetable it shows they flew LAX-LHR nonstop but again - no aircraft type listed.

EDIT - Upon further inspection, it seems TWA clearly labeled their 747 flights and the SFO-LHR nonstop doesn't show that. Which would lead me to guess it was, indeed, operated with a 707.

The LAX - LHR flights is a 747 in the April 1, 1972 timetable. TWA also flew SF0- LHR 3 times weekly. The rest of the TWA schedule was the same until 1991 that they sold the route to AA. BOS, ORD, LAX & JFK were the cities flown to LHR in 1972.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2248 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6143 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
The rest of the TWA schedule was the same until 1991 that they sold the route to AA. BOS, ORD, LAX & JFK were the cities flown to LHR in 1972.

According to Departed Flights, here is TWA's 1972 schedule out of LHR, from the 30 Apr 1972 timetable:

BOS: 1x day, 707
ORD: 1x day, 747
DTW: 1x day, 707, beginning Jun 72
FRA: 2x day, 707
LAX: 1x day, 747
JFK: 2x day 747, 2x day 707; one of the 2x day 707s is effective Jun 72
PHL: 1x day, 707
SFO: 3x week, 707

TWA had non stop authority between Washington and London, which was dormant in 1972.

In 1974, TWA relinquished their DTW-LHR non stop authority in exchange for PA's authority at DUB.

In 1975, as part of the PA / TW route swap, TW relinquished their dormant IAD-LHR authority, and PA suspended LHR-PHL / ORD / LAX.

In 1977, TWA lost their SFO-LHR authority as part of Bermuda II. As part of the agreement, PA suspended LHR-BOS, and resumed LHR-LAX.

TWA was awarded STL / BWI - London in the 1980s.

TWA's LHR-BOS / ORD / LAX / NYC authority went to AA in 1991. Their London-PHL / BWI authority was sold to US in a separate transaction. TWA kept LGW-STL.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6882 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5889 times:

As we all know, PA tried California-London with the 707-321; on one occasion they did LHR-LAX nonstop. (Dunno if that was the only time.) Turns out TWA didn't wait for turbofans either-- they started LAX-ORY in 1961. Never seen any figures how often they made it nonstop.

Timetableimages.com has an 8/62 TWA timetable-- don't recall if they had any -331Bs by then.

[Edited 2011-11-05 14:35:50]

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12160 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5441 times:

Wasn't the B-707-321B the premier long ranged airccraft in 1972, its 6600 nm range exceeding that of the B-747-100/-200 (until the -200B came along), DC-8-61/-63, DC-10-30/-40, and L-1011-1/-200/-250 (all in the 5000 mn to 6000 nm range) in the late 1960s and early 1970s? I thought the only other long range airplane that could compete with the B-707-321B was the DC-8-62. I went to 'Nam on a TW B-707-321B, refueling stops in HNL and Guam on one trip, I came back from that trip on a UA DC-8-61, with refueling stops in the Philippines, Guam, Wake, and Hawaii before reaching California.

[Edited 2011-11-05 16:31:53]

User currently offlinesparky35805 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 288 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5164 times:
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TWA did SFO-ORY with L1649As in1957-58.
Sparky


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25689 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5116 times:

Quoting timz (Reply 5):
Timetableimages.com has an 8/62 TWA timetable-- don't recall if they had any -331Bs by then.
TW took delivery of their first 2 -331Bs in November and December 1962, and the next 3 between January and March 1963.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 3):
The LAX - LHR flights is a 747 in the April 1, 1972 timetable.

There are several complete TW timetables from the 1960s (and many earlier) in the timetableimages.com site. In June 1968 they had 4 707s a week SFO-LAX-LHR-ORY (TW760 eastbound, 761 westbound).

There was also a once-a-week 707 LAX-SFO-ORY-MXP-FCO (TW860 eastbound, 861 westbound).

[Edited 2011-11-05 16:29:31]

User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6882 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4882 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Wasn't the B-707-321B the premier long ranged airccraft in 1972, its 6600 nm range...

LA-Tokyo is less than 4800 nm-- don't think PA ever tried to do it with 707s, tho they did do it eastward.

(Wonder how well Aerolineas Argentinas did with its MAD-EZE 707 "nonstop" starting circa 1967.)


User currently offliness278 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3575 times:

Yes, they did fly LAX-LHR Flight 760 on a daily basis for many years with a 707-321B (I took it several times) and LAX-ORY/CDG Flight 860 on a seasonal basis in the 60's, also with a 707. There were also seasonal flight from SFO-LHR as well.

User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2690 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

I would imagine they would have had to. i'm almost positive that the 707-300 was capable of flying LAX-LHR nonstop. And I don't see how they could have maintained the route in the 1960s....the Constellation would have been an extremely unattractive option to many passengers at a time when pure jets dominated the skies. I know that the Starliner did fly those routes briefly, but I would imagine with Howard Hughes' departure the 707s quickly took over the role. They didn't receive their first Boeing 747 until early 1970, and their last Constellation was retired in 1967. There is no mention in their history of them having to suspend nonstop service from the West Coast as a result of this. As far as I know, the 707-300s performed the primary trans-atlantic operations until the 747s and L-1011s came into service.


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2248 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3171 times:

Quoting Thrust (Reply 11):
As far as I know, the 707-300s performed the primary trans-atlantic operations until the 747s and L-1011s came into service.

Between the removal of the Constellations from scheduled transatlantic service in 1961, and the introduction of 747s onto transatlantic service in Mar 1970, ALL scheduled transatlantic flights were with 707-331 / 331B / 331C equipment, except for the summer of 1967, when two 707-131Bs were temporarily converted to overwater aircraft, and used on BOS-SNN/LHR and JFK-SNN / LHR.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2690 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3133 times:

Quoting ss278 (Reply 10):

TWA operated -331Bs, not -321Bs...the -321 is the Pan Am designation, though it seems like all 707-300s are labeled 321s by default since Pan Am was the first 707 operator.



Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2690 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 7):

TWA to my knowledge didn't introduce jets into service until 1959, and even if they did in 1958, they operated a sole 707-100 for several months due to massive order backlogs due to Howard Hughes' extensive mismanagement of TWA. TWA had problems getting its 707s and Convair 880's firmly established and delivered until Hughes was ousted from TWA altogether. I believe that TWA was the third airline to start service with the Boeing 707 behind Pan Am and American. National I think it was, if I recall, scooped rivals Eastern and Delta by leasing a Pan Am 707 (no repainting) in 1958 too, if you want to count that.



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User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2690 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 4):

Didn't TWA also have a JFK-LGW route? As I recall, in 1991, both 762ERs and 747s served LGW.



Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2248 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (2 years 11 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3104 times:

Quoting Thrust (Reply 14):
TWA to my knowledge didn't introduce jets into service until 1959

Correct. TWA's 1st 707-131 entered service in March, 1959 on the SFO-IDL route. TWA was about two months behind AA, who began 707-123 service on Jan 25, 1959 LAX-IDL.

AA was not awarded SFO-NYC non stop authority until the fall of 1959, and United's first DC-8 did not enter service until Sep 1959, so for several months, TWA had the only jet nonstops on SFO-IDL.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2248 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2828 times:

Quoting Thrust (Reply 15):
Didn't TWA also have a JFK-LGW route? As I recall, in 1991, both 762ERs and 747s served LGW.

I think TWA's flights from BWI went into LGW, not LHR, because BWI-London was added post-Bermuda II. This could explain why TWA served LGW with 767s.

Can anyone with TWA timetables from the late 1980s verify this?



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25689 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (2 years 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2408 times:

Quoting Thrust (Reply 13):
Quoting ss278 (Reply 10):

TWA operated -331Bs, not -321Bs...the -321 is the Pan Am designation, though it seems like all 707-300s are labeled 321s by default since Pan Am was the first 707 operator.

TWA also took delivery in 1963 of 2 707-373Cs (N789TW and N790TW) built for World Airways but delivered new to TW. N789TW below.


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Photo © Alberto Storti



N790TW was written off in a collision with an Israeli Air Force B377 Stratocruiser at TLV in 1970. The B377 was towed across the active runway as the TW 707 (operating as a freighter) was taking off. The 3 TW crew survived. Two others were killed, presumably on the other aircraft.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19701130-0

As a sidenote, Pan Am also operated 6 707-331s built for TWA but not taken up and delivered new to Pan Am in 1959/60. They were registered N701PA through N706PA. Three of those aircraft below.


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Photo © Dave Jones
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Photo © Lars Söderström


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Photo © Robert Roggeman



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