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Why Don't Most East. European Carriers Do Longhaul?  
User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 15505 times:

Hi all,

I've been pondering on this topic for awhile. Why don't most Eastern European carriers operate long haul routes?

I can think of a few airlines that don't have long haul routes at the moment.

Malev
Belavia
TAROM
Adria
Air Baltic
CSA
Bulgaria Air
Croatia Airlines
and others....

Now I understand that some of these carriers are plagued by economic difficulties and that most of the international traffic is made through major connecting carriers (LH, AF, KL, etc)

Also I understand that the economic downturn has taken its toll on the industry and that the population of certain countries isn't that high but there are travelers that may prefer long haul direct flights. For example, I would assume that direct flights between (at least) JFK and the capital cities of Eastern European countries may attract some demand.

So besides these difficulties, what else prevents Eastern European carriers from developing healthy long haul routes from their respective hubs? Is price competitiveness an issue?

Please discuss  


“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
80 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15427 times:

Well, I can speak for traffic going westward to the Americas. Most Eastern European countries do not have heavy ties to the US/Canada/Mexico like Western Europe does. Some of this can be taken back to Cold War Era politics and ideologies. Economic downturn aside, many of these cities' populations do not warrant the cost of a longhaul route to the Americas. Remember that some of these flights from these countries are 3-4 hours longer than flights from Western Europe to the US East coast. These are long and thin routes that require an aircraft the size of a 757, but the 757 doesn't have the range to do these flights.

Western Europe has also had a greater impact on global travel by having so many colonies across the globe which Eastern Europe did not. Many in Western Europe's population got dispersed very widespread throughout the world.

Factor in the above with everything you came up with, and I think you have your answer.

UAL


User currently offlinehOmSaR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15406 times:

Quoting irshava (Thread starter):
Now I understand that some of these carriers are plagued by economic difficulties and that most of the international traffic is made through major connecting carriers (LH, AF, KL, etc)

Also I understand that the economic downturn has taken its toll on the industry and that the population of certain countries isn't that high

I would guess you've answered your own question right here.

I mean, one could just as easily ask why you don't see nonstop flights from MKE or OMA or ABQ or BUF to Europe, rather than being routed through DTW, ORD, JFK, DFW, etc.

It's kinda the same question.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9642 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15394 times:

Many reasons. First off they are not the economic centers that are in Western Europe. The Eastern European countries did not have strong financial and manufacturing markets that exist in Western Europe. A simple look at the difference between Berlin and Frankfurt/Munich operations makes it pretty evident.

Secondly, the largest long haul market from Europe is North America. Eastern European carriers are at a disadvantage geographically as they are not likely to get as much connecting traffic.

Finally, many of the airlines are newer. The market is already established with western airlines. The cost associated with long haul flying is very very high. There have been few airlines outside of the Middle East starting long haul flights. The majority are short haul with long haul being the role of the incumbents.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15392 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):

You make a good point however - MA operated a "757" type aircraft from BUD to JFK (185 seat B767-200ERs) and that route sort of failed as it was cancelled a few years ago.

But your point is very interesting and it makes perfect sense. However many expatriates from East. European countries do live in other cities and they do come back to visit sometimes (speaking from personal experience).



“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15367 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
Many reasons. First off they are not the economic centers that are in Western Europe.

Vienna has financial ties with some major world powers - I don't know if you consider it Eastern Europe but Austrian operates some heavy metal - 767s, 777s.

+ Russian airlines like Aeroflot and Transaero have a lot of long-haul activity going on too.



“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently offlineadriaticflight From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 516 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15315 times:

Interesting topic and you basically answered the question.

The populations of maybe "Eastern European" states is not very great which means that the physical number of travellers between say Ljubljana and New York per day is very small, imagine in the several dozens. Other cities such as Bucharest or Belgrade have greater demand but have other problems. We can look at each country/airline speratly:

CSA - Czech Airlines. Used to have a large long-haul network that was fed by a very large connecting market in Eastern Europe. The economic downturn and the cost of fuel has meant that long-haul flights from Prague are not competitive. The reduction in destinations served reduced the connecting traffic. Czech Airlines also suffered from an outdated product that meant that business travellers (the most valuable) weren't jumping to use the airline unless it served a vital destination in some obscure part of Eastern Europe.

JAT - Massive financial troubles. Loss of the huge domestic market with the collapse of the former Yugoslavia. Jat has a terrible regional network these days that would have be be hugely increased to provide connecting traffic from the region.

Malev- had a large regional network and managed to have a couple of long-haul flights until recently but financial troubles have put an end to both the large regional network and also to any financial viablitly of long-haul flights.

Tarom - large country that could perhaps support long-haul flights based just on size but the cost of fuel and a lack of premium business makes it very hard.

Croatia Airlines - Tiny market and very seasonal. The airline feeds very well into Lufthansa and partner's network.

Adria - Huge finacial troubles. Market that is so small as to be unable to demand twice daily flights to London let alone to America.

Air Baltic - money troubles galore but with perhaps the best connecting network of any airline in Eastern europe.

It all boils down to money. The transfer of money between 'far' away places and the capitals of Eastern Europe is not huge. The one-stop market serves them well. The exception is LOT which based on the huge Polish-American community have been able to maintain a presence in the long-haul market (with new aircraft on the way even!).
Its a shame but there will be no long-haul flights carried out by local airlines in the region for the long term.


User currently offlineirshava From Ukraine, joined Oct 2011, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15289 times:

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 6):
The exception is LOT which based on the huge Polish-American community have been able to maintain a presence in the long-haul market (with new aircraft on the way even!).

Thanks for your post and I would like to add that Aerosvit of Ukraine also operates a nice long-haul network for a Eastern EU country - 9 B763ERs which is more than twice of LOTs long haul fleet.

Again - thanks for your airline breakdown.



“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
User currently offlineadriaticflight From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 516 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15288 times:

Quoting irshava (Reply 5):
Russian airlines like Aeroflot and Transaero have a lot of long-haul activity going on too

Russia and Ukraine are perhaps different markets than those of Eastern Europe. Especially as many of the airlines of the region are semi-privitised. Aeroflot is a legacy airline that serves the mega-city of Moscow. If you compare the number of long-haul flights from Moscow and London you can see the pattern people have been talking about. Moscow is bigger than London but has massively less flights due to location and also global connectivity facilitating one-stop flights to just about anywhere via the world's transit hubs.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 15118 times:

The business justification for long haul flights is either (1) business ties or (2) vacation travel.

The best positioned airlines and cities can feed both economic drivers.

Eastern Europe simply got into the game too late and geography is against them - as mentioned above.

Their 'long haul' traffic is to the sandy beaches of Africa or the Middle East. The laws have made a large number of small leisure focused semi-charter airlines viable. So the 'national' carriers do not pursue that market.

The business ties of Eastern Europe are with Western Europe, the Middle East and Russia and former Russia States.

This may change, but they will be fighting an up-hill battle trying to compete for TATL routes if their business ties go that way. I would personally expect to see more long-haul service grow out of Eastern Europe to Asia rather than the Americas.


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 15004 times:

Interesting topic!

Quoting irshava (Reply 4):
You make a good point however - MA operated a "757" type aircraft from BUD to JFK (185 seat B767-200ERs) and that route sort of failed as it was cancelled a few years ago.

True, but that is a high-cost aircraft. The situation was made bleaker by the fact that they only operated two of them, driving the costs up.

Quoting irshava (Reply 5):
Vienna has financial ties with some major world powers - I don't know if you consider it Eastern Europe but Austrian operates some heavy metal - 767s, 777s.

Austrian's long haul network used to be larger than it is now, mostly due to the geographical disadvantage faced by the carriers above. Economically, though Vienna is/has been considered "West," despite being geographically further East than Berlin and Prague. At the time, the best reference for determining who's who is probably Warsaw Pact vs. NATO. True, Austria and Switzerland were members of neither.

Quoting irshava (Reply 5):
+ Russian airlines like Aeroflot and Transaero have a lot of long-haul activity going on too.

Both carriers are based in Moscow. Moscow alone has a larger population than most of the countries in Eastern Europe (in the Eastern Bloc, only Ukraine, Poland, and Romania have larger populations than the City of Moscow). In a Soviet version of Delta Air Lines, a large percentage of Russian domestic flights begin or end at one of the Moscow airports, providing significant feed. That being said I don't see many people doing Vladivostok-Moscow-Tokyo...Moscow, obviously, was the economic capital of the USSR. Some of its economic advantage came at the expense of Eastern Europe. A lot of that wealth and industry was actually uprooted out of the former Satellite States and deposited directly into the Soviet Union.

[Edited 2011-11-05 19:47:33]

User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14925 times:

Low yield, insanely seasonal and the airline's respective weak networks to offer connections. Also, demand is very concentrated to New York, which is often 40-50% the market. LA, Chicago and Miami also have good market size to many Eastern Europe capitals. So on the U.S. side, there isn't much feed to distribute to other cities. The market isn't small - pairs like LAXBUD, ORDPRG, MIAOTP are larger than many city pairs that currently have U.S.-Europe servic, but the yield sucks.


a.
User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14662 times:

Just does not make financial sense to do so in many cases. The Odd route might work, but given the capital costs involved in having the right aircraft to operate such services, the equation changes.

With the amount of opttions via the bigger hubs, it adds more pressure on yields also.

In the end, even if theres a chance some might work, the reality is that after all costs are considered, year round operation would be extremely hard to see happening.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14616 times:

The one city that I believe never had a n/s into the US is St. Petersburg. I always thought that at least a 3-4X weekly LED-JFK n/s could work, maybe with a 767, but not really ever to be seen. I've known quite a few Russians here in the US from that area, and they go back there on occasion, and I'm sure that there is a lot more.

And if we wait for Baltia (or whatever that airline is that's been wanting to start up Eastern Europe with 747s for the last 20 years or so....) I don't think we'll ever see it.

Might this be a city that could work well into/out of JFK?

[Edited 2011-11-05 23:02:40]

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 14451 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 13):
The one city that I believe never had a n/s into the US is St. Petersburg.

Not correct. Delta Airlines flew to LED in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken.

Pulkovo wanted to fly LED-JFK (with a 747) but these flights never materialized.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 14387 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
Many reasons. First off they are not the economic centers that are in Western Europe. The Eastern European countries did not have strong financial and manufacturing markets that exist in Western Europe. A simple look at the difference between Berlin and Frankfurt/Munich operations makes it pretty evident.

Agreed.

Quoting irshava (Reply 4):
You make a good point however - MA operated a "757" type aircraft from BUD to JFK (185 seat B767-200ERs) and that route sort of failed as it was cancelled a few years ago.

Yes, I believe they abandoned JFK about 3 or 4 years ago.

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 6):
CSA - Czech Airlines. Used to have a large long-haul network that was fed by a very large connecting market in Eastern Europe. The economic downturn and the cost of fuel has meant that long-haul flights from Prague are not competitive. The reduction in destinations served reduced the connecting traffic. Czech Airlines also suffered from an outdated product that meant that business travellers (the most valuable) weren't jumping to use the airline unless it served a vital destination in some obscure part of Eastern Europe.

The "OK" Jet (Ilyushin IL-62Ms). Served JFK and YUL. AC a long time ago flew into PRG weekly with DC-8s, ex YUL via FRA.

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 6):
Tarom - large country that could perhaps support long-haul flights based just on size but the cost of fuel and a lack of premium business makes it very hard.

I thought Tarom had a limited service to JFK but, like MA, gave it up several years ago as too high cost.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3940 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 14209 times:

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 6):
CSA - Czech Airlines. Used to have a large long-haul network that was fed by a very large connecting market in Eastern Europe. The economic downturn and the cost of fuel has meant that long-haul flights from Prague are not competitive. The reduction in destinations served reduced the connecting traffic. Czech Airlines also suffered from an outdated product that meant that business travellers (the most valuable) weren't jumping to use the airline unless it served a vital destination in some obscure part of Eastern Europe.

JAT - Massive financial troubles. Loss of the huge domestic market with the collapse of the former Yugoslavia. Jat has a terrible regional network these days that would have be be hugely increased to provide connecting traffic from the region.

Malev- had a large regional network and managed to have a couple of long-haul flights until recently but financial troubles have put an end to both the large regional network and also to any financial viablitly of long-haul flights.

Tarom - large country that could perhaps support long-haul flights based just on size but the cost of fuel and a lack of premium business makes it very hard.

Croatia Airlines - Tiny market and very seasonal. The airline feeds very well into Lufthansa and partner's network.

Adria - Huge finacial troubles. Market that is so small as to be unable to demand twice daily flights to London let alone to America.

Air Baltic - money troubles galore but with perhaps the best connecting network of any airline in Eastern europe.

B&H Airlines ( Bosnia and Herzegovina ) - Small country, tiny market and small airline with only on Airbus 319 and two ATR 72 ( + 2 smaller aircraft for domestic use ). Only flies between Sarajevo and Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Zurich, Istandbul and Banja Luka. Owned 49 % by Turkish Airlines ). With their connection with Turkish Airlines, I guess they don't need a longhaul of their own ... The country obviously have some way to go and alot of building up to do still due to the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%26H_Airlines

[Edited 2011-11-06 01:22:57]

User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3465 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 14162 times:

We can really add Austrian airlines to that list. They really don't offer too much long distance service either especially when you factor in how affluent Austria is. I think it just comes down to economics and location is the biggest factor in it.

Cities like LHR, CDG, AMS, MAD can handle all of these connections just fine so there will always be heavy competition and price pressure. Eastern Europe requires larger planes and they dont get the connection huge additional passengers the western european ones get. Plus we have seen alot of those airlines jump into alliances that can offer alot of help to these airlines and its frequent flyers.


User currently offlineRIXrat From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 14123 times:

Speaking of Latvia, the now defunct American Trans Air (ATA) tried a JFK-RIX service in the early 90s and it failed, I think, within a year using L-1011s. It was a pet project of the Latvian-born founder of ATA, but apparently he nixed the bean counters who told him that Latvians, just emerging from the Soviet Union, could not afford to fly to NYC, and the plane could not be filled up with ex-pats coming to RIX to visit relatives. So, they continued flying U.S. troops.

On the other hand, RIX still has long haul connections via a direct flight on Uzbekistan Airways (HY) which makes a pit stop in RIX from Tashkent to JFK. I've tried to access their web site several times, but I've given up in frustration in finding anything meaningful. They fly 767s to JFK and may refuel in Shannon. Can't seem to get that information.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 14067 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 14):
Not correct. Delta Airlines flew to LED in the mid 90s if I'm not mistaken.

Really? I'm curious here, and any more details, like what years, or how long it lasted? I'm trying to find DL 90s route maps - no luck yet - and see when and how this was, but...... Was this n/s from JFK, or was there an intermediary stop? Any reason as to why it was discontinued?

Any info appreciated please.

ty


 


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2640 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13960 times:
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Quoting UAL747 (Reply 1):
Well, I can speak for traffic going westward to the Americas. Most Eastern European countries do not have heavy ties to the US/Canada/Mexico like Western Europe does. Some of this can be taken back to Cold War Era politics and ideologies. Economic downturn aside, many of these cities' populations do not warrant the cost of a longhaul route to the Americas. Remember that some of these flights from these countries are 3-4 hours longer than flights from Western Europe to the US East coast. These are long and thin routes that require an aircraft the size of a 757, but the 757 doesn't have the range to do these flights.

I would not be so sure that many Eastern European countries do not have close ties with the United States. If they didn't then there would not be a missile shield in Romania, huge military base in Hungary... Then there is the traditional, and probably one of the closest allies of the US in Europe, Poland. One should not forget the Baltics as well, then again Riga is connected to New York thanks to Uzbekistan Airlines.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):

Secondly, the largest long haul market from Europe is North America. Eastern European carriers are at a disadvantage geographically as they are not likely to get as much connecting traffic.

Disadvantaged if they were to offer Paris-Budapest-New York flighs, however airline like Lot offer Belgrade-Warsaw-Chicago and they are becoming quite successful at it.
That's like saying that Turkish Airlines is at a disadvantage because of its geographical locations. Eastern European airlines are at a greater advantage when it comes to offering connections from the Middle East and eastern Mediterranan for example. Many airline do it, if I am not mistaken Malev was one of the first airlines to return to Libya.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
Finally, many of the airlines are newer.

Yes, very new:
Adria: 1961
Tarom: 1920
Jat: 1927
Lot: 1929
CSA: 1920
Malev: 1946

Quoting adriaticflight (Reply 6):
Malev- had a large regional network and managed to have a couple of long-haul flights until recently but financial troubles have put an end to both the large regional network and also to any financial viablitly of long-haul flights.

Well Malev still today has a huge regional network however the main difference that it feeds American Airlines' flights from Budapest to New York. They have some rather competitive prices such as BUD-JFK for less than €400.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 16):
B&H Airlines ( Bosnia and Herzegovina ) - Small country, tiny market and small airline with only on Airbus 319 and two ATR 72 ( + 2 smaller aircraft for domestic use ).

B&H Airlines is a joke of an airline. They have parked one of their Atrs and they are launching Sarajevo-Banja Luka-Copenhagen on their Atr, this means that the passengers from Sarajevo will take 03:30 to reach their destination.
Same with Amsterdam, I think one flight in the week is operated using the Atr, 03:30 flight!


This past summer there was a charter airline that wanted to operate Chicago-Belgrade (to Zagreb) flights on board a B767-200. Flights were supposed to be operated once a week. Even before the flights started 66% of the capacity has been sold out. At one point they considered operating flights in winter with a B757-200 with a stop in Ireland.
There is growing demand but it will take some time before normal flights can be established to the vast majority of cities across Eastern Europe.


User currently offlinetpaewr From United States of America, joined May 2001, 452 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13940 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 19):
Really? I'm curious here, and any more details, like what years, or how long it lasted? I'm trying to find DL 90s route maps - no luck yet - and see when and how this was, but...... Was this n/s from JFK, or was there an intermediary stop? Any reason as to why it was discontinued?

Any info appreciated please

As I recall it was a FRA based 72S


User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2043 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13507 times:

I recall in the late 80's JAT used the PA WorldPort JFK terminal for their JFK flights. My PA 727 to Denver was parked by the JAT DC10.

In the 90's TAROM served JFK, and I had the choice to take them on my trip to Turkey. Too bad I didn't in hindsight.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 11):
Low yield, insanely seasonal and the airline's respective weak networks to offer connections. Also, demand is very concentrated to New York, which is often 40-50% the market. LA, Chicago and Miami also have good market size to many Eastern Europe capitals. So on the U.S. side, there isn't much feed to distribute to other cities. The market isn't small - pairs like LAXBUD, ORDPRG, MIAOTP are larger than many city pairs that currently have U.S.-Europe servic, but the yield sucks.

I like MAH's above response and think it is right on. I actually do think there is a decent market between the USA and Eastern Europe.

I think one of the most significant reasons is that these eastern European airlines just do not have the resources to maintain a substantial long-haul fleet. The do not offer enough practical connections on the eastern end. Then would these long haul routes make them money year round? Given the yields it's even more not worth it. As I stated above, some of these old eastern European airlines have already been there and done that. The prestige of all of them having a sole JFK flight is not worth the cost.

Having flown between the middle east and USA several times, we always fly over eastern Europe. Strictly geographically speaking eastern Europe does work as a connection to certain locations. I guess it was just never capitalized on early enough. Turkish has most certainly capitalized on geographic location to leverage their market position.

[Edited 2011-11-06 01:51:55]

User currently offlineZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13214 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 20):
B&H Airlines is a joke of an airline. They have parked one of their Atrs and they are launching Sarajevo-Banja Luka-Copenhagen on their Atr, this means that the passengers from Sarajevo will take 03:30 to reach their destination.
Same with Amsterdam, I think one flight in the week is operated using the Atr, 03:30 flight!

1. Many potential fliers may be price-sensitive.
2. it is still MUCH faster than any connecting flights

i would fly it, definitely


User currently offlineLazialeMKD From French Polynesia, joined Oct 2009, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 12616 times:

From my point of view, I think that there are too many airlines, and the market is too small for them. I'll take EX-YU region as an example. If all the airlines based there, merge in one airline, choose one hub (as it was the old JAT), and create one good network in SE Europe, there will be enough traffic to serve at least JFK, ORD and YYZ.

25 LJ : They don't fly to AMS anymore (no flights during Winter 2011, but they'll be back for Summer 2012) From a google search I discovered it was a JFK-HEL
26 lows : I think most Austrians would consider themselves „Western European“ or „Central European.“ We speak a West European (not Slavic or Magyar) La
27 Post contains images airbazar : Do you really have to ask? Go back just 20 and some odd years in time and you'll have your answer. For years these countries where trapped behind the
28 Akiestar : Something tells me that political reasons will prevent this from happening. National airlines after all are extensions of national identity in many c
29 Post contains images irshava : Totally agree with your whole response. I think at one point MA was trying to get some A330s but Airbus declined to sell because of the price MA was
30 Post contains images luckyone : True, but you speak it in the most delightfully maddening accent, for those of us taught Hochdeustch at least While I agree, I would like to point ou
31 LazialeMKD : Not according to my parents, and many other people living in Ex-Yugoslavia. Back then, they didn't need visa for almost everywhere around the globe,
32 adriaticflight : In the 1980s Airlines were supported by their socialist government. Some got cheap aircraft from the USSR or in Yugoslavia's case from Boeing. But the
33 irshava : Noticed a mistake in the title - Carriers* maybe a moderator can fix it?
34 luckyone : Yugoslavia was the exception to the rule. It was not a Warsaw Pact member, and fostered a working relationship with the "West." The rest of the gang
35 transaeroyyz : irshava, i've heard rumors that when Lviv LWO finishes terminal renovations including runway lengthening VV wants to fly to YYZ with 767, as there is
36 TWA902fly : Aeroflot flew LED-JFK in the 90's and early 2000s with an A310 and then a 763. Obviously they no longer fly the route. '902
37 ju068 : Well with Malev offering fast connections in Budapest and a more comfortable flight I am sure that not many people would opt for JA. They did but the
38 irshava : Hey - thanks for the info - It would be great - I live about 300-375 KM from LWO so that's great news. Hopefully its true.
39 ju068 : I suppose that it would be added once a week on the already existing KBP-YYZ...
40 Filipair : Ukraine's longhaul position is perhaps unique because Ukrainian citizens do not have visa-free access to Western European hubs. Further, LOT at one p
41 ju068 : Well the changes that will be implemented with the introduction of the B787 definetly show that the airline is moving in the right direction.
42 tsnamm : Prior to the fall of the Berlin wall there were a a lot of long haul flights from Eastern European capitals to the US and New York in particular. Balk
43 mah4546 : All between ~28 and ~60 PDEW when annualized (so actual PDEW during peak is higher). Bigger or around the size of plenty of markets with non-stops, l
44 C680 : DL flys to both PRG and BUD, so I assume its not the traffic, but rather the health of the native carriers.
45 irshava : BUD is seasonal but I'm not sure about PRG.
46 Post contains links Tupolev160 : An interesting fact, JU used to operate an extensive long-haul network out of Belgrade. Here is the list that includes all the terminated inter-contin
47 Post contains images irshava : Dyakuyu za information Very helpful.
48 C680 : Sorry, I was thinking about AA to BUD. IIRC DL is year round to PRG.
49 LO231 : Poland being Central , not Eastern Europe geographically, don't forget them, they used IL62s long before 767s on US and Canada routes...... Ukraine i
50 ju068 : Jat used to operate flights in CLE in the 1980s using its DC-10. If I recall correctly it used to operate twice per week. In 1981 they operated 3 fli
51 irshava : EU was an abbriviation for European... no European Union...
52 Burkhard : In addition to all what is said above - Since travelors from these countries have to change plane anyway since there is no point for O and D traffic t
53 adriaticflight : Good point. And almost every other country in Europe have visa free access to the EU making a change of plane very easy. Heathrow is a bit different
54 Post contains images ZKCIF : You must be joking, mate. Check my airport. I live in Kaunas, but when I need to fly overseas, I go to Vilnius. Which airline could I choose out of y
55 flyguy89 : I would very much disagree. While I can't speak to the financial viability of OS specifically, there is a good amount of traffic to most major long-h
56 seabosdca : In addition to what everyone else has already said, some of these routes are quite long when compared to western European routes, which always adds ec
57 toobz : DL flew to LED from HEL as a tag on route as well. With an L10 and A310
58 mah4546 : I didn't mean to say it had potential. I just said it could fill a plane with ease. The yield sucks and it requires 1.5 frames. At least with Miami a
59 MillwallSean : I don't see westward connections being what Eastern Europe will develop. The links to the US that people speak about, mostly old immigration, wont dri
60 ju068 : You are right, I have never seen commericials for summer holidays in the US anywhere in Eastern Europe. For example, Emirates have had their office i
61 flyguy89 : It's pretty self-evident if you ask me. BA, AF, and LH all send in their high-density jumbos to MIA as well as IB, AZ, KL, LX, AB, and TP all sending
62 ju068 : I think he was referring to East Europeans who prefer to go to Asia/Africa for holidays rather than the US like the Westerners.
63 flyguy89 : Well he implied that being so with all Europe outside the UK here:
64 mah4546 : O&D stats show that is not the case. Eastern Europeaners not only love to visit Florida, but they love California even more. Between January 2010
65 Post contains links milan320 : There is no thing such as the Eastern Bloc, that ended with the fall of the Soviet Union. Poland (and Romania) are part of EU not the Eastern Bloc: h
66 Post contains images Akiestar : Don't forget Bulgaria, too.
67 luckyone : I'm well aware of that, having been to several parts of it. I probably could have said FORMER Eastern Bloc, but I was under the assumption that everyo
68 Filipair : Well, LO is already flying WAW-HAN 3x weekly. WAW-PEK is probably going to be their next Asian route after the 787's start to arrive. The trouble wit
69 luckyone : Agreed. I was--apparently failingly--trying to correlate political history with current economical realities. The words got in the way. :p
70 MAH4546 : I can't share the actual numbers, but the market size from the major Eastern European cities - Prague, Kiev, Warsaw, Budapest and Bucharest - to majo
71 Post contains images adriaticflight : That's true. Lithuania is a different market. I was trying to make the point that some coutries (such as yours) are under the control of LCCS. Lithua
72 ZKCIF : My wife cannot stand Ryanair, and with our luggage it would not get any cheaper, either. i want to avoid LHR at any expense just because of the olymp
73 adriaticflight : Sounds amazing! I remember my first flight to Vilnius back in 1991, Lithuanian Airlines. Still fondly remember it. Enjoy Brazil, its great.
74 ZKCIF : What metal did you fly? in your user profile, i don't see mentioning any YAK or anything like that. Did they already have anything western at that ti
75 WROORD : Now that Eastern Bloc does not exist Poland is in Central Europe not Eastern (at least from the geographic point of view). LO has ordered 8 787 with o
76 Post contains links Filipair : An article (sorry, Polish only) just came out on Pasazer.com about LOT's Longhaul plans. Here is a paraphrase of some of the highlights: 1. LOT has su
77 LO231 : Point taken, sorry Try VNO-WAW-US/CAN, prices are being fair right now Being biased, LOL, LO does sometimes in the heat of the moment... LOL I was to
78 Post contains links thenoflyzone : Interestingly enough, YUL has identified OTP as a potential new destination for the short term (1-2 years). See page 12 of the following link (french
79 EALflyer : Just to clarify the above -- ATA used a 757 rather than an L-1011 on JFK-RIX, with a stop in Belfast. In my one experience in 1994 the a/c was full o
80 Post contains images adriaticflight : It was a mistake on my behalf i visited in 2001! In 1991 i was 8years old. I flew on a 737-200. nice flights
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