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Taca And Avianca To Join Star Alliance?  
User currently offlinerenatoserra From Brazil, joined Sep 2011, 28 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6635 times:

I have been reading some reports on some brazilian magazines that Avianca and TACA are planning on joining Star Alliance. Is that a fact or not?


Renato Serra Fonseca
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6676 times:

Yes, AV/TA are joining Star Alliance by May 2012.

User currently offlinerenatoserra From Brazil, joined Sep 2011, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6603 times:

When you say Avianca you mean Avianca Colombia or also Avianca Brazil?


Renato Serra Fonseca
User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6604 times:

In the beginning only AV-Colombia. But I am sure that, after TAM leaves *A, AV Brazil and AV Ecuador (AeroGal + VIP) will join.


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User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6568 times:

Quoting LH506 (Reply 3):
after TAM leaves *A

Is TAM really leaving Star for oneworld? I thought LATAM hasn't decided yet which alliance they will join, or whether or not LAN and TAM will be in their respective alliances?  


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6504 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 4):
Is TAM really leaving Star for oneworld? I thought LATAM hasn't decided yet which alliance they will join, or whether or not LAN and TAM will be in their respective alliances?

One of the provisions handed down by the Chilean authorities was that LATAM and AV can not be in the same alliance.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6456 times:
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Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 5):
One of the provisions handed down by the Chilean authorities was that LATAM and AV can not be in the same alliance.
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 4):
Is TAM really leaving Star for oneworld? I thought LATAM hasn't decided yet which alliance they will join, or whether or not LAN and TAM will be in their respective alliances

With Avianca and Taca joining Star one has to conclude the Star alliance is reading the "tea leaves" and hedging its bet for coverage in Latin America. AV/TACA & Copa have much less desirable location them TAM for South American coverage.

LATAM is LAN's show and something atomic would have to happen for them to leave OneWorld. OW with LATAM, AA, BA and IB is going to control large shares of the market to Europe, the USA and especially the west coast of South America.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6174 times:
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Quoting Akiestar (Reply 4):

Is TAM really leaving Star for oneworld?


That depends on whether LAN's takeover of TAM actually gets approval, and, if so, what conditions are imposed.

So far as I know CADE have not yet ruled whether the transaction can go ahead.

If they rule in favour ( and I am pretty sure they will  thumbsdown  ) then TAM will have to leave Star... however, if they rule against the takeover  thumbsup , or , if they rule in favour but impose conditions which are not acceptable to LAN  thumbsup  then no one really knows what will happen.

Back to the OP's question. Yes, this was announced in November of last year

http://www.staralliance.com/en/press/cmavta-prp/

....MIAMI, FLORIDA, USA – November 10th, 2010 – Star Alliance, the way the Earth connects, will be expanding its presence in Latin America following the unanimous approval by its Chief Executive Board (CEB), to accept both Avianca-TACA and Copa Airlines as future member airlines....

[Edited 2011-11-09 09:33:10]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineviaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2122 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6066 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 5):
LATAM and AV can not be in the same alliance
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 7):
then TAM will have to leave Star

Star could always become a runaway bride and avert the dangers and temptations of marital infidelity altogether. Otherwise a lot can happen in two years, as the Chilean anti-trust court gave LATAM 24 months to renounce any conflicting alliance membership.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8565 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6052 times:
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Quoting viaggiare (Reply 8):
Star could always become a runaway bride and avert the dangers and temptations of marital infidelity altogether. Otherwise a lot can happen in two years, as the Chilean anti-trust court gave LATAM 24 months to renounce any conflicting alliance membership.

I think that you are forgetting that LAN will be in charge if the takeover goes ahead. I just don't see *A being able to persuade them to leave OW.

I also have to say that I think ethically it would be wrong for *A to give AV/TA the bum's rush for an issue that has nothing to do with them ( Yes, I know this is business and ethics don't really have anything to do with it, but in my mind it would be unethical and would leave a sour taste... much like TAM's decision to go ahead with accession to *A when they must have already been in negotiations with LAN) .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineindiansbucs From Costa Rica, joined May 2007, 151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5961 times:

Also I believe Copa will join Star Alliance (since they follow "daddy" CO everywhere), which really confuses me since Copa and Taca/Avianca are truly rivals.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5926 times:
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Quoting indiansbucs (Reply 10):
Also I believe Copa will join Star Alliance (since they follow "daddy" CO everywhere), which really confuses me since Copa and Taca/Avianca are truly rivals.

On could say the same about ANA and Asiana or Thai and Singapore Airlines. Nothing new here, Star alliance has many memeber airlines which are competitors in their back yards.


User currently offlineindiansbucs From Costa Rica, joined May 2007, 151 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5856 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 11):
On could say the same about ANA and Asiana or Thai and Singapore Airlines. Nothing new here, Star alliance has many memeber airlines which are competitors in their back yards.

They want it all, it appears...


User currently offlineviaggiare From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2007, 2122 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5753 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 9):
I think that you are forgetting that LAN will be in charge

In keeping with Brazilian law (which caps foreign ownership in airlines to 20%) the Amaro family retains 80% voting rights at TAM's new parent company.

Quoting indiansbucs (Reply 10):
Copa and Taca/Avianca are truly rivals

And unlikely bedfellows.



Entre le fort et le faible c’est la liberté qui opprime et la loi qui affranchit.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5689 times:
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Quoting viaggiare (Reply 13):
In keeping with Brazilian law (which caps foreign ownership in airlines to 20%) the Amaro family retains 80% voting rights at TAM's new parent company.
Quoting viaggiare (Reply 13):
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 9):
I think that you are forgetting that LAN will be in charge

Many airline mergers have happened in the last ten years where one airline can only buy up to 49% of another because of a law. That has not stopped KLM and Air France, SWISS and Lufthansa or Iberia and BA.

LAN also owns most if not all of LAN Peru, Lan Colombia, Lan Ecuador, so they know how to navigate the Latin ownership situation. Chances of LATAM not happening are slim to almost none.


User currently offlinerenatoserra From Brazil, joined Sep 2011, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5661 times:

If TAM leaves Star Alliance, it would be a major loss in South America. TAM controls almost half of the domestic brazilian market and a major part of the international. Star Alliance companies will then fly directly to Brazil competing with TAM and LATAM will lose altogether a lot in my oppinion.

I think if this gets approved, TAM will become LAN Brazil just like already is on some other South American countries, so becoming One World.

Avianca Brasil is very very small on marketshare, so it will be not so nice for people like me who is a Star Alliance frequent flyer to rely on Avianca to fly within Brazil. Maybe they will convert TAM points to One World.

The final word will tell us which are the conditions for the merge, which I hope never gets approved. I have the same oppinion on the Gol Webjet deal. In Brazil we have 2 major companies that controls about 90% of the market.



Renato Serra Fonseca
User currently offlinecoffeepilot From United States of America, joined May 2011, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5648 times:

TACA is joing star alliance in March 2012

User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5609 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
LAN also owns most if not all of LAN Peru, Lan Colombia, Lan Ecuador, so they know how to navigate the Latin ownership situation. Chances of LATAM not happening are slim to almost none.

It should be noted that Brazil may soon increase the foreign ownership law for airlines from 20% to 49% and TAM's international network is smaller than LAN's international network. Regardless of the combination, LAN plans to significantly increase both passenger and cargo operations in Brazil. Also, LAN's Brazilian and Mexican cargo affiliates already dominate those two markets. LAN Airlines S.A. currently has six passenger subsidiaries and four cargo affiliates in seven different countries.

Argentina: LAN Argentina
Brazil: ABSA Cargo Airline
Chile: LAN Airlines S.A.
Chile: LAN Express
Chile: LAN Cargo S.A.
Colombia: Aerovías de Integración Regional S.A. (AIRES)
Colombia: Línea Aérea Carguera de Colombia S.A. (LANCO)
Ecuador: LAN Ecuador
México: MasAir
Perú: LAN Perú S.A.


User currently offlinerenatoserra From Brazil, joined Sep 2011, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5593 times:

If it gets increased to 49%, also is possible that the smaller airlines get a lot of foreign investments and grow in fleet size and all... However we kinda ran out of slots at the profitable routes here in Brazil...

It would be nice to have at least 4 companies competing here and to have more companies performing longhaul flights (only TAM does that now).



Renato Serra Fonseca
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4505 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

Quoting LH506 (Reply 3):
AV Brazil and AV Ecuador (AeroGal + VIP) will join.


The integration would not happen automatically.
Nowadays, I don't see Avianca Brasil fully integrated to [TACA and Avianca mainline] operations by means of any strong code-share agreement.
I found better results in certain routes operated by 2K on behalf of Avianca and/or Taca: UIO-LIM, BOG-UIO and MDE-UIO.




.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
AV/TACA & Copa have much less desirable location them TAM for South American coverage.


That argument is valid in deep South America where TAM has a vast coverage.
On the other hand, AV/TA and CM are predominant carriers over TAM in other regions of South America: Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia and so forth.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5280 times:
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Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 19):
On the other hand, AV/TA and CM are predominant carriers over TAM in other regions of South America: Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia and so forth.

What about Argentina, Chile, Paraguay and Uruguay? Also, TAM Brasil operates daily into CCS and TAM Airlines Paraguay operates flights to Bolivia, along with LA and LP which both serve LPB and VVI with two daily flights. TAM will have a stronger presence in *Argentina, Chile, Colombia, **Ecuador, Perú, etc. via LAN.

*TAM Brasil operates 10 daily flights into BUE and TAM Paraguay operates 2 daily flights into BUE.
**LAN Ecuador recently surpassed Aerogal in both the Ecuadorian domestic and international markets.


User currently offlinerenatoserra From Brazil, joined Sep 2011, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5147 times:

TAM and LAN definetly are the top 2 of South America. Gol is definetly #3 I suppose and maybe Aerolineas Argentinas #4. Anyone has that data?


Renato Serra Fonseca
User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5100 times:

Quoting renatoserra (Reply 21):

Depends in which term you mean.

Capacity-share wise in South America, its:

1. TAM
2. LAN
3. GOL
4. Avianca-Taca
5. Azul
6. Webjet (now GOL)
7. Trip
8. Aerolineas Argentinas

In the near future:

1. LATAM
2. GOL
3. Avianca-Taca
4. Azul
5. Aerolineas Argentinas



Flying4Ever!
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8375 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4987 times:
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Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 19):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 6):
AV/TACA & Copa have much less desirable location them TAM for South American coverage.


That argument is valid in deep South America where TAM has a vast coverage.
On the other hand, AV/TA and CM are predominant carriers over TAM in other regions of South America: Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia and so forth.

Yes Avianca and Taca do control vast traffic in Colombia, Ecuador and Panama, but that is not much when compared to Brazil and Argentina.


User currently offlineRCS763AV From Colombia, joined Jun 2004, 4395 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4895 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 23):
Yes Avianca and Taca do control vast traffic in Colombia, Ecuador and Panama, but that is not much when compared to Brazil and Argentina.

Except that Colombia's traffic is way larger than Argentina's, and is in fact the second largest in the region after Brazil.

Quoting renatoserra (Reply 21):
TAM and LAN definetly are the top 2 of South America. Gol is definetly #3 I suppose and maybe Aerolineas Argentinas #4. Anyone has that data?

AviancaTaca are way larger than AR or any other airline apart from LAN, TAM and GOL. And let's not start with GOL's international connectivity, which is laughable for the market they serve.



Les escribo desde el frío de mi verde altiplano.
25 CamiloA380 : GOL's small international services makes sense. They are focusing on domestic opportunities, because actually flying becomes affordable to a rapidly
26 RCS763AV : It may be what serves them best at the moment of course. It doesn't mean they're not letting a huge opportunity go by shrinking internationally. Not
27 LH506 : GOL would fit perfectly into *A. AV-TA cover Central America, Carribean and Northern South America, GOL covers Brazil + some flights to Argentina. How
28 indiansbucs : Skyteam... and specially Delta... is strongly pursuing GOL to get codeshares with them, and eventually get them enrolled into their alliance in the f
29 Post contains links SCL767 : GOL is leaning more towards SkyTeam and does not code-share with Star Alliance carriers. GOL already has bilateral relations with carriers such as AA
30 renatoserra : WOW, so Aerolineas in only #8. Actually it makes sense, since the domestic routes in Argentina are not that vast. Flying has become more popular in Br
31 aircanada014 : When TACA learn COPA joining Star Alliance they welcome them with open arms, and they will not compete but work together.. As for LATAM..they can onl
32 Byrdluvs747 : I believe there is a rule that mandates a certain number of codeshares that a member must maintain. When MX dropped the UA codeshare, they fell below
33 kiwiandrew : edited as realised was off topic[Edited 2011-11-10 17:22:56]
34 viaggiare : All bets are off as enmity and mistrust run deep.
35 SJOtoLIR : That wasn't the point of the discussion posted on reply 19. . If TAM leaves from Star Alliance in the future, it's clear that AV-TA will not replace
36 SCL767 : LIM will become a primary hub for LATAM. TAM offers 18 weekly flights between GRU and LIM via JJ's code-share with LP. The geographic location of LIM
37 renatoserra : Brazilian domestic traffic cannot be covered by TACA and Avianca Brasil just don't have enough slots and planes to go anywhere near it. Let's remember
38 SCL767 : Poor fleet planning on AV's part. TACA cannot operate domestic flights with-in Brazil. However, AV Brasil will receive LAN's last 10 A-318 a/c within
39 jfk777 : Why would LAN decide to go to Star ? Such a possibility has little chance of happening. Avianca Brazil could be in for a massive expansion to become a
40 indiansbucs : Taca and Copa are like dogs and cats... in SJO they even went to legal issues to get a Lounge at the airport. Oh yes... they will love each other whe
41 indiansbucs : I would dare to say... that both were looking to fight to be in Star Alliance... and if they both got into it... it would be to make proof of which i
42 Summa767 : Avianca Brasil will NOT *just* receive A318s that have been with LAN. It is to receive brand new A320s as some orders have been modified. This is ver
43 ETinCaribe : [quote=SCL767,reply=17]It should be noted that Brazil may soon increase the foreign ownership law for airlines from 20% to 49% and TAM's international
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