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Finnair Seeks To Become An Emirates-style Hub  
User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 680 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 16379 times:

This article appeared in Business Week:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...y-to-swell-emirates-style-hub.html

Some quotes:

Quote:

Finnair Oyj, building Helsinki into a hub offering the shortest flights from Europe to northeast Asia, said it’s seeking a partner with which to operate the services while pursuing local takeovers to boost Nordic traffic.

Finnair is keen on an Asian accord with antitrust immunity that would permit joint sales and revenue sharing, similar to ventures between European and U.S. carriers across the Atlantic, Chief Executive Officer Mika Vehvilaeinen said in an interview.


Bring on the A380s! (But I may be reading too much into this...)

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 16366 times:

Would love to see a Finnair nonstop to Miami to feed their hub up there!

User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11572 posts, RR: 61
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 16251 times:

Quote:
The carrier, which is almost 56 percent owned by the Finnish government, serves 11 cities in the Asia-Pacific region, including three in Japan and three in China, where it will add flights to Chongqing on the Yangtze River next May.

Including the UAE in 'Asia Pacific' is stretching the boundary a little I feel.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineThe Coachman From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 1421 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 16250 times:

They'd better fix up their transfer operation at HEL in conjunction with immigration if they're going to do this.

I heard of a family who had a 90 minute connection for another European destination (allegedly legal), get stuck in queues for 90 minutes, their flight is being called, they sought assistance from the Finnish officials who did nothing and their baggage was removed from their flight. Needless to say, they are not happy and won't fly Finnair or go through Helsinki again.

Mind you, I'm sure that happens everywhere around the world and it's telling that places like HKG, SIN that don't require transit immigration etc do better.



M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
User currently offlineFunFlying From Finland, joined Jul 2001, 185 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 15922 times:

Go Finnair, go, my beloved airline!

But the fact is as much as I'd love to see an Emirates-style Finnair-hub at Helsinki, it's a hard task. Finavia, (Finavia Corporation is a service company that maintains a network of 25 airports in Finland and the air navigation system covering the entire country) is one of the big brakes. The airport at Helsinki, as conveniently small as it is should be expanded a lot. It seems that every expansion being made is way too small already when brought to use. The terminal is like a long too narrow tube and not perfectly suitable for hub operations.

HEL needs a whole new modern terminal for long haul suitable operations. Finnair's traffic already is highly restricted at peak hours due terminal capacity (and lack of jetways).

-FF

[Edited 2011-11-11 13:36:49]


Leaving on a Jetplane...
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4058 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15774 times:

Is HEL not too far north to be a viable hub for flights coming from/to North America to/from S/E Asia? I have been to HEL and found it to be a nice airport but I don't see it as a place I would want to spend time transferring flights.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1082 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15725 times:

I hope they can do it, but there is more to EK's success than the geographic position of DXB. The Finnish government needs to be 100% behind this concept, and do everything they can to promote growth in their hub operation.


These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15689 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 5):
Is HEL not too far north to be a viable hub for flights coming from/to North America to/from S/E Asia?

If anything it's too far south  
No airport in Europe makes for a convenient connection between N.America and East Asia.
It is however well positioned for connections between S.America and E.Asia, between Europe and E.Asia, and even between N.America, Central/South Asia, and for the right price even SE Asia.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32193 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 15635 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 1):

Would love to see a Finnair nonstop to Miami to feed their hub up there!


AY will come back. Now is not the time, but when the economy turns around, I bet it'll happen.



a.
User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6291 posts, RR: 54
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 14972 times:

Quoting The Coachman (Reply 3):
They'd better fix up their transfer operation at HEL in conjunction with immigration if they're going to do this.

I heard of a family who had a 90 minute connection for another European destination (allegedly legal), get stuck in queues for 90 minutes, their flight is being called, they sought assistance from the Finnish officials who did nothing and their baggage was removed from their flight. Needless to say, they are not happy and won't fly Finnair or go through Helsinki again.

That is when your final destination is another Schengen country. Immigration is done in the first Schengen airport since further flights are treated like domestic flights - no immigration control at final destination.

It is the same if I for instance would go to Adelaide. I would very likely transit in SYD and catch a domestic flight to Adelaide - after doing immigration in SYD. I wouldn't count on 90 minutes transfer time in SYD in that case. Especially since I would likely be on the backmost seat on a Qantas A380 and be last in a 500 souls long immigration queue from just that plane.

You may try GDG instead, in case you for instance is going to Spain. I think that nobody would blame the Frenchmen that you would need more than 90 minutes for immigration control and physical transfer to the appropriate departure terminal for your continued journey.

You may mention any Schengen hub, and you will need more than 90 minutes transfer time to be safe. It has nothing with Finnair or Helsinki to do. The family, which you mention - or their travel agency - just did bad planning since immigration wise you must look upon the Schengen area as "one country".

Just like Australia is one country - and incidentally about the same size as the Schengen area, maybe even larger?

Only if they bought the ticket as one Finnair ticket covering all segments, and they bough it themselves directly from Finnair, then they can blame Finnair for not doing their homework.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineBY738 From Tonga, joined Sep 2000, 2176 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 14852 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 5):
Is HEL not too far north to be a viable hub for flights coming from/to North America to/from S/E Asia? I have been to HEL and found it to be a nice airport but I don't see it as a place I would want to spend time transferring flights.

So far the only piece of common sense. And in my opinion the natural and only way things will end up..... It aint no EK


User currently offlinevincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 14595 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):

That is when your final destination is another Schengen country.

This is correct, same at CDG or any major airport at EU, transit between

Schengen and another Schengen country - no immigration check
non-Schengen and another non-Schengen country - no immigration check
Schengen and non-Schengen country or vice versa - immigration check

It's passengers' responsibility to check their MCT.

HEL is indeed position very well (especially Indian subcontinent - N America and Europe - East Asia) except for Australia, AY has advertised very competitive fares in Toronto for YYZ-HEL-HKG.


User currently offlineEconojetter From Malaysia, joined May 2001, 430 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14566 times:

I think this just mostly means that AY is looking at new (also smaller and non-traditional) spokes for transit traffic (which EK was the first to do on a large scale, i.e. connecting cities like NCL, BHX, HAM in EK's case). I don't think it really envisions itself growing to the scale of EK. As some have already pointed out in this thread, EK-sized aspirations require a major boost in the supporting facilities at HEL. In addition, it is also questionable whether AY can commit to this kind of strategy in the way EK has, e.g. swooping in with a launch of daily services even on routes with relatively long stage lengths. Would AY's fleet and staff resources as well as costs and policies allow network expansion in that manner?

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14547 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
Quoting N62NA (Reply 1):

Would love to see a Finnair nonstop to Miami to feed their hub up there!


AY will come back. Now is not the time, but when the economy turns around, I bet it'll happen.

I hope so... and this time with NONSTOP service instead of that 1 stop 757 they used to bring in.


User currently offlinelucce From Finland, joined Jun 2011, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 13740 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
You may mention any Schengen hub, and you will need more than 90 minutes transfer time to be safe. It has nothing with Finnair or Helsinki to do. The family, which you mention - or their travel agency - just did bad planning since immigration wise you must look upon the Schengen area as "one country".

Didn't understand the initial argument but as AY advertises 35min transfers that's a bit too much. I hear that they have dedicated staff to meet travelers with short connection from both Finnair and Finvavia side. The "service angels" (don't know if the Finavia staff have any special name) are to usher the travelers through the airport. Those with less than one hour transfer can use the fast track security if their flight needs it.

Obviously there's very little that can be done to speed up immigration although I know it can be a pain (I stood in line for immigration for more than an hour in HKT in a terminal with very poor air-con). In Helsinki all Schengen passport holders can use the self-service machines for crossing the border which I think can speed up things quite a bit (it took me less than a minute to get through though it was a rush hour).

As to the original topic, I fail to understand what "EK-style" means. Finland doesn't have a drop of oil and very few immigrant workers so I don't see how this could happen. In other parts I don't see many differences. EK of course has a wider spectrum of destinations while AY focuses on Europe and Asia with occasional N-American destination. For both airliners their revenue comes from transferring passengers rather than point-to-point travelers. Both have four stars with Skytrax.

I do see AY expanding even more because every airshow system on most Europe-Asia flights are advertisement for them. Now if the Finnish government sold their share to IAG and HEL would become their Asia hub with LHR being the N-American and MAD the south one the growth would speed up quite a lot.

[Edited 2011-11-12 00:30:39]

User currently offlineMikey86 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 12978 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 2):

Including the UAE in 'Asia Pacific' is stretching the boundary a little I feel.


Dan

Technically, the U.A.E. is part of Asia.



mikey86 - Greenslopes, Queensland
User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 12316 times:

Quoting lucce (Reply 14):
As to the original topic, I fail to understand what "EK-style" means. Finland doesn't have a drop of oil and very few immigrant workers so I don't see how this could happen.

I do not think EK's model is based on oil, and not even on the many migrant workers in Dubai. It is based on good location and bold strategy to server many destinations with one stop, low per-seat costs due to using large aircraft and cheap labor.

Finnair is already in many ways on the same plan. They connect many places in Europe to many places in Asia, with pretty much optimal routing.

They are not as good in using cheap labor as EK is, though. But they do use some amount of workers from the destination countries.

If they want to "become an EK-style hub" I guess this would mean a change in the scale more so than in strategy. Even more destinations in Asia, larger aircraft to destinations in Europe. Maybe some additional destinations from North America. Co-operation with some Asian players for further connections.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
You may mention any Schengen hub, and you will need more than 90 minutes transfer time to be safe. It has nothing with Finnair or Helsinki to do.

Problems occur in every airport, people can miss flights. But I have found Helsinki-Vantaa procedures on par with the fastest other airports in the world. There are occasional security queues, but they are relatively small compared to many places. The airport is so far small, you do not need to transit between terminals. Passport checks are in general faster than anywhere else. YMMV.


User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11670 times:

Finnair need to bring their image back to a more confident scheme before embarking on such expansion.

It looks like they couldn't afford a proper livery designer this time round and coloured paint was considered too expensive. It's not giving out the right message. Also looking at recent trip reports the food onboard looks awful.

I disagree that Helsinki airport needs expanding. If you are transferring between international flights you want the gates to be near each other. HEL is big enough as it is.

AY was a great airline.


User currently offlineNavigator From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 1144 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 11504 times:

I admire Finnair for having dreams. Fact is they have managed far better than neighbour SAS that can not even handle its own market properly and is struggling with internal tensions and politics. Finnair has taken advantage of this and is now far ahead of SAS in every aspect, no doubt about that. But the comparison with Emirates is a bit far fetched. Emirates is after all a very special airline and has a much larger airport able to handle transfers in a better way. Finnair and Helsinki Airport are both very small by comparison. But you must have ambitions and Finnair has had success where SAS has failed in all respects. Being overconfident like SAS has a price, now the smaller neighbour has taken a large portion of traffic that should have flown nonstop from both Stockholm and Oslo but now goes via HEL and not CPH. Congratulations Finnair!!  


747-400/747-200/L1011/DC-10/DC-9/DC-8/MD-80/MD90/A340/A330/A300/A310/A321/A320/A319/767/757/737/727/HS-121/CV990/CV440/S
User currently offlineLuftyMatt From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 427 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 11264 times:

Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 15):
Technically, the U.A.E. is part of Asia.

Nope, last I checked it was in the Middle East.



chase the sun
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10891 times:

Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 19):
Nope, last I checked it was in the Middle East.

The Middle East is not a continent.


User currently offlineThe Coachman From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 1421 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10834 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
Only if they bought the ticket as one Finnair ticket covering all segments, and they bough it themselves directly from Finnair, then they can blame Finnair for not doing their homework.

And therein lies the problem. My information was that they were on the same AY ticket. Hence their frustration.

I agree it's like transiting CDG or FRA or wherever, however, the issue here is the connection was allowed by AY and it was not assisted by either its agents or Finnish officials.



M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
User currently offlinetolmachevo From Germany, joined Jun 2006, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10831 times:

Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 19):
Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 15):
Technically, the U.A.E. is part of Asia.

Nope, last I checked it was in the Middle East.

And the Middle East is part of Asia, same as Eastern Europe is part of the continent of Europe.


User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 915 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10628 times:

Quoting tolmachevo (Reply 22):
Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 19):Quoting Mikey86 (Reply 15):
Technically, the U.A.E. is part of Asia.

Nope, last I checked it was in the Middle East.
And the Middle East is part of Asia, same as Eastern Europe is part of the continent of Europe.

Exactly, I thought that schools in UK did a better job in teaching geography...

LuftyMatt get your geography in order if you wan to be a pilot....


User currently offlineantidote From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9618 times:

Uh, guys,PlymSpotter just said that it was a stretch to include U.A.E. in Asia-Pacific, not Asia generally. Asia-Pacific usually includes Southeast Asia, East Asia and Oceania and sometimes Russia and North American countries that border the Pacific. Perhaps he should have said that all of Asia isn't normally included in definitions of Asia-Pacific.

25 us330 : Not from east (and sometimes just west) of the Mississippi. Travel time is very competitive with flying west.
26 huaiwei : Not entirely correct either. The Middle East spans across two continents (some say three if Turkey is included and if it is treated as a European cou
27 Post contains images zweiBierebitte : HEL has a lot to learn from MUC in this case, one of the best connecting airports IMO. A few years back I flew IAD-MUC-NCE with a 35 minute connectio
28 Post contains links airbazar : You're joking. Why don't you play with this for a bit. http://www.gcmap.com JFK-HEL-NRT for example is 33% further than JFK-NRT, 28% further than JFK
29 Post contains images Byrdluvs747 : Only in people's minds. In the purely physical world, geologically and tectonically , the middle east isn't part of Asia and neither is India, far ea
30 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Great idea; all they need is no unions and massive government implicit and explicit backing. Should be no problem at all
31 HELyes : JFK-India routes go via Finland, JFK-HEL-BOM would be optimal. Few passengers cares for the great circle mapper. Many Finns travel to Asia via LHR and
32 Post contains images N62NA : But if you take winds into account....
33 okAY : I think people are missing the real point, quite surprising to at least for a Finn, of the article. Finnair has for many years built the gateway betwe
34 dank : NRT isn't exactly in southeast Asia... Going from NYC to say BKK, flight time is about equal going through Europe and or East Asia as I recall, but t
35 us330 : Just did-- JFK-NRT-BKK is 9634 miles, JFK-HEL-BKK is 9033 miles jfk-lax-nrt-bkk is 10815, JFK-NRT-SIN is 10009 miles, JFK-HEL-SIN is 9879 miles jfk-l
36 HELyes : Yes the strategy has been there for a long time, this year AY will carry over 1,5 million passengers between Europe and Asia. The question is how muc
37 Post contains images airbazar : BOM is not SE Asia either LHR-HEL is not JFK-HEL. The backtracking within Europe is minimal for such a long haul trip. It happens here too. Many peop
38 tayser : wrong thread....................... delete me[Edited 2011-11-12 18:54:53]
39 Post contains images HELyes : The article was about AY and Asia generally. In SE Asia AY only serve BKK and SIN, the NE corner (Japan, mainland China, HKG and Korea) is their main
40 brilondon : The middle east is not a continent and is part of Asia, unless you include Turkey which is in Europe as well as Asia, but for what it is worth it is
41 Post contains images RyanairGuru : Just to go a bit further, "Middle East" is a political rather than geological term. It exists because of a (fairly) common cultural/linguistic herita
42 dank : I don't disagree, but your example was in response to a poster discussing flight times to SE Asia. The market isn't as big in SE Asia as it is in NE
43 okAY : I don't want to start splitting hairs, but indeed in the reply you originally replied to, they were talking about SE Asia, and it was you who took NR
44 teme82 : Now if IAG would like to buy AY I would like to have IAG's shares in 1:2 ratio! But I don't think that will be happening anytime soon...
45 Byrdluvs747 : I would like to see AY become their own group and buy other carriers to form a "SAS" for OW. Let IAG focus on TAP, or Italy.
46 mdavies06 : I wonder who they look to for this 'ATI'. Maybe they have in mind JL, CX and QF? I wonder if BA / QF will be willing to work with AY. I can see AY go
47 Post contains images teme82 : Yeah I agree with you.
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