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Will US Ever Expand In The Midwest  
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2281 posts, RR: 3
Posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4429 times:

Just curious if US would ever expand in the midwest? Or are the content with UA handling their flying via code share? There are alot of decent sized smaller/mid sized airports in the center of the country that could stand to gain some service. Personally I would love to see them at CID since we lost NW with the DL merger. Other places that come to mind are MSN, PIA, SGF, ICT, FSD, GRB, MLI, CMI, etc. Even places like DSM, OMA and OKC which do have US seem to have minial service at best and none to east coast hubs like PHL or CLT. Or does the lack of a midwest hub really prevent this...Thoughts?

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Just my opinion, but I think PHL is too constrained to support long thin routes to the midwest. Maybe some RJs from CLT to do the job, but I would imagine the carriers with midwest hubs (DL, AA, UA) would be more competitive in schedules/pricing.

If US was truly concerned about serving the midwest then maybe they would look towards F9 for a merger to gain some traction through the MKE/MCI hubs.

[Edited 2011-11-13 08:56:09]


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User currently onlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5048 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Thread starter):


Or does the lack of a midwest hub really prevent this...Thoughts?

Bingo. Back in the mid 90's US was kicking the tires at TWA (as did most carriers at the time, even VJ/FL). Most of the aforementioned markets would have come with a US/TW combo. Access to those markets are provided by the UA/US code share now. Even if US jumped ship to oneworld, as is often speculated here, the resulting alliance with AA would cover those markets.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineCitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2431 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4359 times:

ICT has had an interesting history with HP/US. ICT was one of the four original cities (COS, LAX, MCI, and ICT) when HP started service from PHX on August 1, 1983 with 3 737s. HP continued to operate to ICT until after it became US. A few months ago US dropped ICT service.


Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4338 times:

OKC no longer has US service. They quit the OKC-PHX market a few years ago. I would really like to see US do OKC-PHX again, as well as OKC-CLT, but it seems they don't like to compete with WN, at least on the PHX run.

UAL


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16855 posts, RR: 51
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4293 times:

US had several Mid-West hubs in the '90s

Dayton, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Columbus, Kansas CIty and if you want to stretch out the Mid-West to mean the rust belt then obviously Pittsburgh was there largest hub at one time. The Mid-West is a tricky market, US and B6 especially have had a rough time of it in the heartland.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineGVROYphx From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 120 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4208 times:

Yeh...they'll expand in the midwest. When they become American Airlines!

User currently offlineskyguyB727 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4035 times:

Years ago, US had twice daily, DC-9 service GRB-MKE-PIT.

User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3994 times:

So should I start the "Well F9 is for sale. That would give US access to the Midwest" war of words here?   


I remember when US had a hub at IND. Then after cutting back service it just gate squatted in the D concourse of the old terminal. The old US hanger at IND is now being used by FX last time I went by there. I also think the only reason US still has a decent presence at IND is because of the Rjet HQ and MX there. I am really surprised it has any following in the city at all.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5401 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3954 times:

I doubt US would choose to expand in the Midwest currently. Chicage, obviously the jewel, and Detroit are taken and there is not a serious contender among the other possibilities based on market size and economics.

In ten years as the Midwest transforms itself into a more economically dynamic area (you can already see this happening), US might well want to make a move, assuming it is still an independent carrier. They might even find PIT attractive again.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinelows From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1134 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3920 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 4):
OKC no longer has US service. They quit the OKC-PHX market a few years ago. I would really like to see US do OKC-PHX again, as well as OKC-CLT, but it seems they don't like to compete with WN, at least on the PHX run.

I would love to see CLT-OKC, but I think the odds of that happening are probably low. I cannot get access to the BTS statistics because this computer can't handle CSVs (long story) but I would think there is probably enough demand to fill a CR2 or CR7, yes?


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2281 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3731 times:

too bad something never materialized with US/TW. I think STL would have still been a hub today, and would have balanced out the network pretty good with PHX out west STL in the middle, PHL in the NE and CLT in the SE. US did have token presence in many of those midwest cities I mentioned at first via MCI they could have built on that by shifting to STL as there was a loyal following for TWA around here. Heck CID even had ERJ serivce to PIT back in 2000-2001.

I always wonder too if maybe DL completely pulled out of CVG if that would be a better postioned midwest hub for US since its farther west than PIT was. I never understood the notion of PIT serving as a midwest hub, it just seems too far east.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7867 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3701 times:

Yeah, US is kinda of an unbalanced airline IMO. I mean, they are doing a lot of things correctly and have come a far way since a few years ago when "they were the one to fail" and were "the ugly stepchild airline" or whatever. But with hubs in PHL, CLT, DCA, and PHX, there are some big holes in their map. Again, they are able to operate profitably with only these hubs, but I think they could go great leaps and bounds with another hub. Question is, where? Can MCI support a hub like the good ol days of... uh, I forgot who hubbed there a while back but I know someone did. Will AA pull back enough at STL and even then, would WN put up a huge fight there? Will CVG ever die for DL, and is that far enough away from their other hubs to not be redundant? See, I think US would love a mid-west hub, but there is nowhere really viable without starting a huge war, which isn't really necessary since they're profitable now. Wait 5-10 years and see what the industry looks like then. Then again, everyone is saying they'll merge with AA so who knows...


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

How much of HP is even left inside of US? Other than the PHX hub, but even that is not as big, seems many HP destinations and flights have been eliminated. Why is it that East Coast or Mid West carriers buy or merge with West Coast carriers only to dismantle them.

Also it seems any carriers mid west hubs have failed, EA TW BN and more at MCI & STL.... I guess just because it's not DFW, IAH or ORD?



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User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1135 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3660 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 13):
Also it seems any carriers mid west hubs have failed, EA TW BN and more at MCI & STL.... I guess just because it's not DFW, IAH or ORD?

DFW/IAH/ORD are surrounded by some of the most populated metro areas in the country. I think that is more of the reason for success/failure for hubs in general, and explains why MCI and STL havent worked (CVG and MEM arent working well for DL and will be the next casualties in my opinion).



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User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3622 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 14):
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 14):
(CVG and MEM arent working well for DL and will be the next casualties in my opinion).

I have to agree 100% Too bad as well, CVG & MEM are great places to connect, I used both instead of the larger hub cities when possible. Definatly enjoyed taking the DL M11's PDX-CVG and connect onwards, sigh...



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User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1906 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3563 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 13):

Also it seems any carriers mid west hubs have failed, EA TW BN and more at MCI & STL.... I guess just because it's not DFW, IAH or ORD?

I wouldn't go that far. STL didn't really fail TW, rather STL became irrelevant after TW merged with AA. MCI...yeah I suppose you could make the case, many carriers have hubbed there and been unsuccessful. But MSP and DTW are both very successful midwest hubs. I'd say CVG was as well for the role it served with pre-merger Delta....but like STL, the merger made it irrelevant.


User currently offlinedeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1647 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3467 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 16):
I wouldn't go that far. STL didn't really fail TW, rather STL became irrelevant after TW merged with AA.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 16):
I'd say CVG was as well for the role it served with pre-merger Delta....but like STL, the merger made it irrelevant.

I disagree. I think those hubs were the only decent sized airports that were geographically ideal that those airlines could get their hands on that were left over after IAH, DFW, ORD, MSP, etc were taken. Once they had them, they made do and maintained a tolken presence in that part of country against their competitors. Kinda like asking the fat girl to the prom cause she was only one left. But after mergers and these reshifts, they got what they wanted (for DL better hubs at MSP and DTW) and AA the elimination of capacity and therefore got out of STL. Agree STL didn't fail TWA but it by no means was ever ideal for them, same with CVG and DL.


User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3387 times:

It may be true that US Airways lacks a midwest presence....but, as you may know, that has not always been the case for USAir/US Airways and America West.

USAir once tried a semi-hub at Kansas City with nonstop service to almost all major markets in the US (IND, LAS, LAX, MCO, LGA, SAN, SFO, SEA, SEA, DCA plus all of the then-current US hubs) and even had a large USAir Express commuter operation operated by Air Midwest. And, as another poster commented, it also had mini-hubs in CLE, CMH and a full-fledged hub in DAY as a result of the Piedmont Airlines acquisition.

Furthermore, America West, in the early days, made it a point to serve many of the smaller-sized midwestern cities. America West once had mainline jet service to cities like Cedar Rapids, Moline, Des Moines, Omaha, Sioux City, Lincoln, Wichita and Springfield (MO).

For example, here is a 1987 route map for America West:

http://www.departedflights.com/HP111587.html

Over the years, both the original USAir and America West slowly shut down those operations. (Of course this was all well before the introduction of RJs.)

Whether or not today's US Airways decided to re-open such cities is unknown. However, it is for sure, both USAir and America West DID, at one time, have much more extensive midwestern routes.


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4581 posts, RR: 23
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3332 times:

US Airways' midwest hub dreams seem to have died once IND was shut down for good. They've eliminated many Midwest and Great Plains markets over the years and haven't really indicated any desire to go back. It would probably take a regional operator to setup shop and establish a code-share with US for anything to really get going. The other down side...there aren't many markets left to pick. IND is lost. MKE is too full. MDW/ORD are packed. STL is dominated by Southwest now - though may have an opportunity. MCI has never worked and is dominated by Southwest...they really need to redo their terminals once and for all. DEN is packed. DFW is a no-go. So that takes you down to the second tier markets like OKC, OMA, and AUS. They already ran from OKC once. OMA is probably tapped out. AUS is too far south.

User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1906 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3288 times:

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 17):
I disagree. I think those hubs were the only decent sized airports that were geographically ideal that those airlines could get their hands on that were left over after IAH, DFW, ORD, MSP, etc were taken. Once they had them, they made do and maintained a tolken presence in that part of country against their competitors.

I'll agree having midwestern hubs in mid-sized cities was not 'ideal', and of course they would have preferred the likes of DFW and ORD, but they didn't just 'make due' with a token presence. CVG at it's peak solidly rivaled UA or AA in ORD (domestically that is) in network breadth and coverage with a not insignificant portfolio of international flights. STL was much the same, peaking at over 500 daily flights with multiple daily non-stops to Europe and Hawaii, again not what I would call a token presence. My overall point is that none of these hubs abjectly failed. I can only think of MCI where, multiple times, airlines have hubbed there and failed, but the likes of STL, CVG or MEM served their network roles well for their airlines until the mega-mergers made them redundant.


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2281 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3203 times:

additonally STL, like Chicago, had somewhat of a history for being a transportation hub, first for the railroad and then the airlines (Ozark, TWA, AA). STL is still a pretty good sized market, I think its probably similar to MSP in size, although demographics are not as well as MSP. Places like MEM, CVG etc seem more artifically propped up by the airlines than STL ever was. STL being a transportation hub goes way back, Im still sorry to see it vanish from the importancy of the airlines

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

This brings up a valid question, that I'm not able to understand fully, why has MCI never succeded as a hub for any carrier? It's almost exactly in the middle of the country, it's never been over utilized for facilities. Was it just it's size and lack of significant O & D traffic? WN seems to be do nicely, the non-stop to and from PDX is almost always full when I'm on it. Is MCI only able to work well as an LCC market?


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User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2747 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3053 times:

Quoting lows (Reply 10):
I would love to see CLT-OKC, but I think the odds of that happening are probably low. I cannot get access to the BTS statistics because this computer can't handle CSVs (long story) but I would think there is probably enough demand to fill a CR2 or CR7, yes?

T-100 Q3 (high quarter) show total traffic between the two cities as 40 passengers per day, and Q1 (low quarter) shows the count at 35. Hardly enough to fill even a small RJ, I have to say.

Anyway, here is the site, and use Table 6. Lots of info there about these things.

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/x-5...le_files/consumerairfarereport.htm

If you have a .pdf or excel spreadsheet application, maybe your computer can handle this.


User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3002 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 22):
This brings up a valid question, that I'm not able to understand fully, why has MCI never succeded as a hub for any carrier? It's almost exactly in the middle of the country, it's never been over utilized for facilities. Was it just it's size and lack of significant O & D traffic? SA)">WN seems to be do nicely, the non-stop to and from PDX is almost always full when I'm on it. Is MCI only able to work well as an LCC market?

This has been the topic of so many threads on anet.... (not to fault you, as the "search" function on anet is less than optimal).

The general consensus has always been the lack of local O and D traffic, the poor security set-up, and the fact that so many cross-country flights are already better served by either non-stop flights or other larger populated hubs.

As I am sure you know, TWA, Eastern, Braniff II, USAir, Vanguard all tried to establish a hub or mini-hub in Kansas City. All were short-lived.

At one time, Braniff II even boasted that they offered the most nonstops to the most destinations ever served by an airline in Kansas City.

Taking aside the O and D traffic, the location of the airport, etc.... a big problem is the terminal design. While DFW was built in a similar fashion, DFW was also built to that ALL gates in a terminal could be accessed from one of several security check-points. In Kansas City, even connections between gates on the SAME airline are a hassle. Even SA)">WN, with its large operation there and connections there requires passengers to (at times) exit and re-clear security. Plus there are the terminal facilities..... food, bathrooms, etc inside security is near non-existant. Yes, I know improvements have been made over the years, but they are still lacking today....and were completely non-existant in the years past when TW, EA, BN, US, NJ all tried to hub there. Remember in the the past hub days, I don't even think there were restroom facilities inside of security. It was a total turn off.

Combine ALL of those aspects....the O & D, the security, the lack of amenities/facilities, the competition from so many other well-established hubs with larger O & D traffic and better facilities.....MCI has just never flourished despite its prime geographic location.


25 FWAERJ : US used to have a decent presence here at FWA (and at SBN as well), dating back to the Piedmont days. At one time or another, US (or US Express) used
26 flyguy89 : Both Cincinnati and Memphis were and still are major transportation hubs. Cincinnati has long served as an important port and gateway on the Ohio Riv
27 flyby519 : Definitely so true for the typical passengers who is traveling from the east coast to the west coast(largely populated areas of the USA) I personally
28 FWAERJ : MCI renovated all three of their terminals several years ago, with new materials, new dining/shopping, and larger, consolidated holdrooms (with restr
29 planespotting : With US Airways' east coast network, it seems like they could be a profitable player at some of the smaller cities in the midwest. I mean, to get to m
30 HPRamper : Not under the newish ramp contract. That almost sounds like an old America West clause.
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